Rebuild

[Ace]

Hey whats up guys well I am planning a big rebuild project for march probally going to dump around $3000 into it that is my budget now I need some advice with were to go I want to boost eventually defintally not nos will turbo still researching into that my goal hp is 175-200 hp leaning more towards 175 :bowrofl: anyways I have read that the stock bottom end rebuilt would be find for a turbo application correct? I plan on getting a head package from http://www.gude.com/Head/hp.htm#accord but pistons is where I am most confused now can the stock pistons withold turbo?????? any inputs,ideas,numbers would be greatly appreciated I spend hours upon hours on this site sucking all this stuff in and really want a nice blueprint for march when I go through with the rebuild Thanks Paul

[mykwikcoupe]

some will say otherwise but Im a firm believer in tuning. If you can worl detonation out of the equation either by not going too extreme or planning correctly Id say the stock internals pistons, bearings and all on the a20a would hold 10-15 psi for quite a while. That kind of pressure in a decent setup would net you in the 300-350 range. Myself being one of precuaitions and whatnot I just overbiuld everything so I dont have to worry about the maybies later. With a tag of 3k Id say a decent rebiuld just a cleanup hone resquare everything, have the rods and crank polished. Keep the stoc pistons just the way they are. Go find a good head porter and have him make you a nice flow and tune the cam to that. #k with proper tuning id say 300 easy. Even noin turbo with the boltons and a little compression would net you in t he 175-200 range your after.

[w00tw00t111]

some will say otherwise but Im a firm believer in tuning. If you can worl detonation out of the equation either by not going too extreme or planning correctly Id say the stock internals pistons, bearings and all on the a20a would hold 10-15 psi for quite a while. That kind of pressure in a decent setup would net you in the 300-350 range. Myself being one of precuaitions and whatnot I just overbiuld everything so I dont have to worry about the maybies later. With a tag of 3k Id say a decent rebiuld just a cleanup hone resquare everything, have the rods and crank polished. Keep the stoc pistons just the way they are. Go find a good head porter and have him make you a nice flow and tune the cam to that. #k with proper tuning id say 300 easy. Even noin turbo with the boltons and a little compression would net you in t he 175-200 range your after.
I would agree with you. But like you said since your already gonna have the engine out of the car opened up why not spend the extra 400 for some 9:1 pistions that are meant to handle high horsepower? Think of it as insurance. I was suggested to get Diamond pistons.

[Ace]

If I was to buy diamond pistons do you suggest using stock rods I searched and got different answers and if not stock what rods should I use

[w00tw00t111]

If I was to buy diamond pistons do you suggest using stock rods I searched and got different answers and if not stock what rods should I use
Well from what my questions to another member that has done a rebuild and turbo'ed his accord. He suggested using the stock rods but having them shotpeened. This way they are a bit stronger. Also when you get your head P&P you might get them to shave some of the end of the rod off. I have seen this done on our car. Also if they do a 3 angle valve job this should improve flow dramatically.

[FyreDaug]

Where can you get your rods shot peened? I have no local shops around me.

[Robs89LXi]

I'm not sure how much boost the stock engine can take, but then again:
a) No-one knows for sure
b) I didn't want to find out on a 245Kmiles engine
c) Since I was going to rebuild anyway, might as well get that "peace of mind".

Here are some numbers if you are interested:

Diamond Racing: Talk to Ron Beaubien ([email protected]). Ask about order # 18604 (note: this is 0.020 overbore, w/ stock 20mm wrist pins).

ARP: Call them; talk to Debbie. Rod bolts are the football shaped head, 8mm (I think). Main studs I used are from a Mazda, but there are others; she will cross-reference it for you. (http://www.arp-bolts.com)

ACL: Rod bearings - p/n 4B1946
Main bearings - p/n 5M1947

Gasket Works USA: Talk to Mordy Dunst ([email protected]). Ask about A20A head gasket.

This stuff is not cheap, but like I said, peace of mind.

[Robs89LXi]

As far as engine rebuild, here is what mine cost:

Gaskets, seals, freeze plugs $100.00
Sqare + deck the block $60.00
Bore and hone cylinders (.020) $100.00
Replace pistons $28.00
Boil the block/crank $45.00
X-ray and polish crank $50.00
Recondition rods $68.00
Resurface flywheel $35.00

Engine Rebuild Total $486.00

[Ace]

so what do you guys think of gude head package is it worth it

[FyreDaug]

And bumping my question about where to get rods shot peened.

Can I send them away somewhere? Can I do it myself? I'm a noob to shot peening, in all my other motors we had options available to upgrade to H beam rods or something forged.

[AccordEpicenter]

umm... i make over 200whp on the stock block... she has survived over 13psi spikes when my wasteGAYte gave up on me

[Ace]

bump about the gude package I am willing to spend the 1500 if this is a great investment

[AccordEpicenter]

you can go faster for less $$ if youre going turbo. You would be faster with a gude package on the same amount of boost vs the stock engine, but put forged pistons into it and run more boost, for $1500 save your money. For my turbo setup alone, it cost me less than $2000, but i also spent over another 1000 in the aluminum flywheel ($420), 3 puck race clutch ($415) 6 puck race clutch ($385)

[Robs89LXi]

Can't comment on the Gude package, as I don't know of anyone who has used it on an A20. I think it is very expensive though, and from all I've read about boosing, it seems the stock cam is you best bet anyway. You are of course wanting to get more air flow through the head. On a normally aspirated (N/A) engine, you can do this with bigger valve and a more aggressive cam, but with a boosted engine, the air is being forced in, thus allowing more flow anyway. I'd spend that money elsewhere if I were you.

[shepherd79]

there was a guy here long time ago, who got as gude package. he rebuild this motor and dynoed it stock and with gude head package. he gained only 22 hp if i remember correctly. It wasn't even half of what they promiss.
Everytime i read about gude company, i hear bad things about it.
you better off to let some local shop to P&P your head and call Colts cams to get turbo cam made for your application.

[Versanick]

definitely stock cam. and turbo setup. when your motor blows, get another a20 (since they're a dime a dozen) and blow that one up. and retard the ignition timing a bit more than last time. (MSD makes an inexpensive module to retard per pound of boost)

There's more that you have to do than just slapping on a turbo kit, but it's much easier to put all of the components of your turbo kit on another motor you find after you blow up the one you have, than it is to worry about blowing up a motor whose internals have money and stake in them..

Plus having a turbo is a very cool thing. I have a b20a with all kinds of N/A garbage, and I think I'd trade any N/A upgrade I have, or all of them, for a turbo. When I throw a rod or get something in my oil or lose a piston ring, I have to deal with the fact that I have aftermarket pistons already, my block's been decked twice already, my rods are shot peened and polished, I have new bearings.... and it all could go to crap. Go turbo...

[w00tw00t111]

definitely stock cam. and turbo setup. when your motor blows, get another a20 (since they're a dime a dozen) and blow that one up. and retard the ignition timing a bit more than last time. (MSD makes an inexpensive module to retard per pound of boost)

There's more that you have to do than just slapping on a turbo kit, but it's much easier to put all of the components of your turbo kit on another motor you find after you blow up the one you have, than it is to worry about blowing up a motor whose internals have money and stake in them..

Plus having a turbo is a very cool thing. I have a b20a with all kinds of N/A garbage, and I think I'd trade any N/A upgrade I have, or all of them, for a turbo. When I throw a rod or get something in my oil or lose a piston ring, I have to deal with the fact that I have aftermarket pistons already, my block's been decked twice already, my rods are shot peened and polished, I have new bearings.... and it all could go to crap. Go turbo...
I won't even touch the turbo and wait for it to blow comment. But, I guess honeslty the biggest reason to upgrade your engine IMO before you put it in is b/f it blows you will be able to use a higher amount of boost. So you will be getting more HP then you could on the stocker. I guess really it depends on if ACE is wanting to race or just make it fast and reliable. I'm planning on buying an EFI a20 and building it up within this or the next week. (just got my p74/75 ecu. first part that I've bought for my build up) But with mine I'm trying to get as much HP as possible without it breaking often mainly b/c I am wanting to race it. But it all depends on what your wanting.

In regards to P&P your heads. I just finished reading "Honda Horsepower Handbook"(I think that's the name) and it gave me a new insight into it. If you turbo it and don't P&P then yes technically since your forcing more air into the motor you will get better flow numbers then stock. But...... Think about it for a second. *gives thinking time*;)
If your shoving tons of air into a semi-restrictive head then really all your doing is magnifying your problem. I'll relate it to target practice w/ a rifle. I don't know if this will make any sense but here goes nothing.
If your aim in the scope is only .5mm off from the bullseye and you pull the trigger. As it travels towards the target that is 200yards and finally hits it, it will not be .5mm off from the bullseye. It will infact be much much further off target.

So if your pumping more and more air into your heads you want it to smooth flowing so that you can use more and more of that air. I believe the technical term is Volumetric Efficiency *I could be wrong* :p But basically why waste any of the air that you just spent $1000 on i.e. turbo kit by not letting it flow to its fullest potential.

I hope this helps. Hopefully it does and didn't just totally confuse you. My writting skills are lacking to say the least. :(

[Ace]

Well I am trying to push this engine as far has I can without losing reliability since it is mainly a daily driver I have loved all the responses I have gotten and right now I am blueprinting this build I have looked at phrenology build up and other members who's loads of information have been a great build to compare to Thanks for all the info and please any one with any more advice please share you're opinions I tell you this will be one sweet build

[rjudgey]

i agree if you jave the head, inlet manifold and Throttle body flowed, then you will gain more power without having to up the boost, yes you can use a stock engine nad yes you can increase the boost to get more power but it will blow eventually, if you want reliability you need to make the engine more efficient, and the way to do this is to concentrate on the flowing of the engine, then you won't need as much boost and the engine will be less stressed. I would leave the port size as is, just get rid of the casting marks match with inlet manifold and gaskets, then concentrate on the areas around the valve and guide, and also the valve head and seats, having big 60 degree cuts ont eh valve seat with nicely cut back valve head will really hugely improve the flow and if you can get a 5 angle done and then have the angles radiused thats about the best you can get. Making these little differences will have a huge impact, because a port is not a restriction, the valve stem, head and seat are as this is what the air has to be forced pass and this is where the air velocity comes to a grinding halt, so improving the main port near the inlet manifold side is a waste of time and energy so don't even think about increasing port size, increasing valve size is good as this will enable you to have a much more radiused valve seat and throat, don't icrease the size of the throat just run a bigger 60 degree bottom cut and even add a 70 degree one too and then have those nicely radiused, the more of a trumpet
also with turbo setup you really need to look at the exhaust valve size, and the port, the guide ramp around the valve and guide can be dramatically reduced so that it follows the shape of the port, evenwith a N/A engine can make as much as 10bhp difference, with a turbo engine will really help, but increasing the valve size to 37/38mm will really help to as you can run a much nicer valve seat adn throat on the exhuast port, it's all about exhuast gas out efficiency on turboed engines so concentrate more on that than the inlet side, also maybe worth looking into getting custom valves made up for all 12, i have them made up by a machinist who charges £15 each in stainless steel waisted and with any angle on the head normally have a cutback on them as well then radius it nicely into the stem, also with stock injection i use a swirley rough pattern made by a grinding stone to the finish of the valve to help with the air fuel mixture which is needed for direct port injection or with engines running a short inlet manifold runner.

That s not even with going into the combustion chamber flowing, this is just as critical as the port and valve flowing, getting the chambers nice so that they can get the air in and out is just as inportant, making sure their are no edges around the valve seats, making sure that the chamber matches the head, and importantly that the valves have as much room around them and that the finish is as near to perfectly polished as you can.

Hope this gives you some idea what you should be going for, i wouldn't trust the Gude package just get a reliable engine shop to do what you want to improve the flow, if you can find a head specialist who can do the above then just use them, if most give you blank look when you explain the above than just find someone else as they haven't got a clue!!

I do this for a extreme hobby and have done many different heads so i know what works and what doesn't unfortunately i don't do it as a business and as i live in the U.K and have allready couple of people who want heads done by me getting a bit of a waiting list so as much as i'd like to i can't offer my services here unless you fancy waiting a couple of years!! But seriously if you need any advise or questions than just e-mail me anytime, it's so easy to get ripped off by people who claim they know how to port and flow a head when in fact all they do is get mediocre results and then charge you a fortune for it, been their and done it!! Never again!!

For E.G. i have a ET1 head only mod is headwork by me a mild cam 270 degree 10mm lift custom inlet manifold with twin DCOE webers, the block is stock with 8.5:1 compression exhaust manifold is stock cast which has been flowed and ported, custom downpipe and 2.25" badly made system.
I get well over 200bhp from this setup which i was only expecting 180-190bhp i've broken my best 1/4 mile times with ease and thats with a leaky gearbox which is making the clutch slip a little when changing gear!! ran a 14.57 last weekend!!

So can't wait to get my big valve version on with forged high compression pistons and a custom header and system should be good for 250bhp or more if i'm lucky!!

[Robs89LXi]

Wow, hadn't checked back in awhile, but it looks like things are getting really off track here. I think the original post says he has $3000 to spend, and was hoping for around 175hp. While all this head/flow advice is great, I think it might be a bit of overkill for what he's trying to accomplish. When I said that the forced air would increase his flow, so don't worry about spending money on the head, that is exactly what I meant. I certainly was not implying that head work was useless; on the contrary, I certainly know the benefits of it, but let's keep it in perspective here. I think he would be better off spending his money on the turbo setup, because it will take every bit of that $3000 to do it right. By the time you add up turbo, manifold, complete custom exhaust system, engine management, BOV, intake piping, intercooler etc., I doubt he will have anything left for all this head work. Very good advice for someone wanting to make serious power for sure, but I think it might be a bit much for this application, eh?

[Ace]

well for right now I have a engine with 211,000 that was not cared for by the previous owner and is knocking so I want to first build up a nice bottom end the head work can come later I ma not turboing in march right now I want to build up this a20 the best I can so yes the head work will come later

[Justin86]

yea like rob said the goal is 175whp not 300whp. Rebuild the block with all stock parts including bearings, and oil/water pumps. The forged pistons would be nice but not necessary for your goal and you can still blow forged pistons if your managment is fucked. Plus the stock pistons are low compression 9.3:1 for 88-89 EFI and 8.6:1 for 86-87 EFI, carbs are all 8.8:1
Guide is not as good as they claim.
Have the head checked maybe the valve seats regrinded if their not seating good.
A decent BOV but don't go cheap on the wastegate.
Boost gauge
Good turbo (T25, T3)
turbo oil lines
FMIC don't spend over 200 on one
log manifold to keep it simple and still use your A/C
piping should be pretty straight forward (JCWhitney mandrel bends)

managment is a little harder...........
OBD-1 (swap still be worked out) (best option and most tunable)
or a get a piggy back fuel controler.
bigger injectors
fuel pump

if you are able to weld it will be easily under 2K otherwise it might be right at 2K or a little more?

[Versanick]

As a daily driver?

I guess then don't blow the motor. I was just trying to give a different input than everyone else was. That's what I would do if it wasn't my daily driver.

This is your daily driver... so treating it right is probably a good idea. Most good shops that have been in business any decent amount of time probably do Honda things, even if they like Chevy Small blocks better...

All of these guys inputs are great... my one worry is whether you're going to install the motor yourself, or if you have to pay for it. A auto place can charge you a significant amount of money to completely assemble the motor (have whatever shop you took it to assemble the short block. that's what they specialize in, and they'll know how to make it so the rings will seat right etc)..

Make sure you figure labors of installation into all of this. And concentrate on making your car be reliable, if that's your goal, before going turbo nuts. Personally, I would get the motor running (after having it built and put together and put in by whatever shops I choose) and let the rings seat and ensure that it works correctly BEFORE everything turbo, if that's the way you're going. That's what I'd do, and so that's the best advice _I_ can give.

Then to go turbo, I'd have 100% of the parts, be ready with whoever's going to help me and all of the tools, plan everything before cutting or taking apart or doing ANYTHING, and make it happen in a weekend... still, good luck.

I don't know what whatever shop you take it to will cost you but here's about my breakdown:

Hypereutectic coated pistons $120ish
New bearings (properly massaged) $100ish?
.020 over bore/hone ?
Total seal piston rings, ARP rod bolts
shot-peen and polish stock rods (which are forged, BTW)
polish and turn crank
ASSEMBLY OF SHORT BLOCK (very important)

$540 total including labor

Don't forget that you'll want a new head gasket, as well as the $100 of other gaskets you may need around the motor. I was only charged $540 because Rick couldn't FIND a jdm b20a headgasket. I had to buy one from Josh (b20aturbo).

[w00tw00t111]

That helps me alot too versanick. When you say Hypereutectic do you mean taking the stock ones and getting those coated? Also when you say have a shop assemble the shortblock do you mean blue printed or just have them "throw" it togeather? Also if I was to rebuild my motor is that honestly all you would suggest before turboing on the engine side of things? i.e. not including the fuel management and turbo stuff. Thanks

[Ace]

Can I ask a big favor I am going to be getting a price quote on this can someone draw me up a cheat sheet of everything I should ask for has for the rebuild Thanks Paul

[Ace]

http://www.westwoodautomotive.com/asp/services.asp I was recommended to this place