3rd Generation Honda Engine Swaps - Pros and Cons

[Swap_File]

I have been reading up on the available swaps for the 3rd Generation Honda Accord, as suggested all over the forums.

This is what I have come up with as a short list of pros and cons for different commonly available or talked about engine swaps. I made it for myself, but figured it might be useful to the rest of the community.

Some Information was taken from http://www.qtronics.net/HondaEngineSpecs.htm , and from all over the 3geez, and other honda swap forums.

I have no experience with engine swaps myself, all of this is taken from what others have said. If I have something down wrong, or something is missing please let me know so I can edit the list.


Standard A20:

- Little or no aftermarket support. What aftermarket support there is, is expensive.
- Custom/Expensive Exhaust Manifold Needed for Boost
+ B series Intake can easily be Installed
+ Manual transmission can take Integra gears
+ Cast Iron Block (Handles low boost stock)

All Swaps:

- Need New Transmission
- New or Modified electrical Harness

Accord B20A (NOT the prelude B20A, Doesn't count as a "real" B series Engine)

- Expensive, Must be imported (in USA)
- Hard to Find, and hard to find parts for (in USA)
- Little or no aftermarket support. What aftermarket support there is, is expensive.
- Custom/Expensive Exhaust Manifold Needed for Boost
+ Cast Iron Block (Handles low boost stock, maybe 15 PSI if tuned right and in good condition) (Edited)
+ Old Engine Mounts are fine.
+ More torque than B18, A lot more than B16
+ Similar HP to B16, but slightly less HP than B18

B Series Swaps, General:

- Needs New Axels (Integra Axel with Accord CV should work)
- Needs new Engine mounts (Take B series mounts and weld them to a plate and mount it for the mounts that do not line up)
- Possible hydraulic clutch conversion, but not needed if you carefully pick a transmission
+ Lots of aftermarket support
+ Possibility for more power
+ Relatively Cheap (can be found in a junkyard)

B16 (All have VTEC)

+ Similar HP to VTEC B18, but less torque. Transmission gearing should make up the difference. (edited)
+ Handles low boost stock
+ A lot Better Mileage compared to A20? (www.fueleconomy.gov)

B18 (B18B is LS, B18C has VTEC)

+ With VTEC, Slightly More Torque and Considerably more HP than A20
+ Handles low boost stock
+ Better mileage compared to A20? (www.fueleconomy.gov)
B18B Can be fitted with VTEC (http://sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0411scc_hybrid/)

B20 (B20B is a B20Z with lower compression)

+ Similar torque to B20A
+ Similar HP to B18
- Needs B18 Intake to fit
- Can't handle even low boost without re-sleeveing. Stock Sleeves WILL crack.
- Re-sleeving is expensive (Estimate $1000).
Similar mileage compared to A20? (www.fueleconomy.gov)
Can be fitted with VTEC (http://sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0411scc_hybrid/)

H22

+ Aftermarket support
+ Definitely would provide lots of HP and toque
- Initial investigations made it look more expensive and more difficult than I would want.
- Less information on needed Axel and Mount changes.
- There are cheaper ways to get the same power with other engines like the B series?
Worse mileage compared to A20? (www.fueleconomy.gov)

Edit: I never said what conclusion I had come to after doing all my research!

Well, due to cost the B20A got thrown out. While I do not know yet if I am going to install a turbo, I like to keep my options open, so that throws out the B20 due to sleeve costs. The H22 got thrown out because it sounds like it would be hard to do, be in general more expensive, and the mileage would be worse (It's a small consideration, but this is my daily driver). Assuming I can find one at the junkyard (shouldn't be a problem), I believe the B18 would be my best choice.

[shepherd79]

well, i just want to correct you, B16 does have lower torque numbers but remember B16 has diff gear ratios. So it will compensate itself. plus the numbers are not that much diff. anyway.
As for B16 being better on gas mileage, i am not sure if it can beat 35 mpg or better.


Positive about our stock block is that you don't need much work done to it to handle 30+ psi of boost. A few member on this board had their engines running at 32psi and it was fine. yeah you have to upgrade your pistons and rods but that should be enough to handle that much boost.
about making your own header for turbo, well it can get expensive but you can also get log type one made very cheap if you are looking at right directions and asking right people.
this was my 2 cents.

[Swap_File]

B16
So would you say a stock B16 is on par (or maybe slightly better) than a stock A20 performance wise, once the gearing and such is taken into consideration?

Milage
Also, about gas mileage, http://www.fueleconomy.gov says the auto 89 Accord Sei gets an average of 24 MPG, which is just about what I get (23-25 MPG). Then again, I normally drive my car pretty hard, and floor it a lot. I know I should do the transmission swap, I have a manual sitting around. The manual 89 gets 27MPG according to them.

Cost
I made this list from low cost (junkyard) perspective, so I didn't take into consideration aftermarket items beyond swapping parts or installing a junkyard turbo. Pistons are $475, plus $349.00 for rods, plus you have to get some sort of better head gasket. (Fake post edit: After doing the math below, this cost doesn't seem that bad compaired to what it would take elsewhere to get to 300+ HP, but its still out of my current price range)

Turbo Power
If I didn’t screw up the numbers I put into this applet http://www.turbofast.com.au/tfcalc.html , I think an A20A3 at 30 PSI would put out close to 290 ft/lbs and 310 HP, some massive numbers.

From what I have read on 3geez, it seems with no intercooler and just retarded timings you can run 6 PSI on an A20. With a good intercooler an A20, even as a daily driver, could handle 15 PSI boost stock, if carefully tuned so no detonation would occur. 15 PSI would put it at about 220HP and 200 ft*lbs of torque, well above the B18. Beyond this point better pistons and rods and a better head gasket would be needed, it seems. (Once again, I am just repeating what I read elsewhere, I have no personal experience with this)

The Plan
Sounds like my current plan will now look something like:

Phase 1 Items
Manual Swap without Integra gear swap (People said Integra gears are too short for a turbo A20)
B18 intake
MegaSquirt ECU + Electronic Igition (building it myself)
Make sure engine is in good condition
Build Exhaust Manifold (also learn to use our TIG welder better)

Phase 2
Intercooler + Injectors, Fuel Pump + Turbo at 6PSI, and then work the PSI upwards.

Phase 3
If something blows up, replace or fix engine with the spare, or re-contemplate a B series swap, or get pistons and rods and gain the ability to go for more power later.

Seems logical to me, any comments?

Thanks for the input, its very helpful.

[Oldblueaccord]

I think for myself when I do a motor swap I make up some criteria I want and then go from there.

So I would ask yourself what do you want out of your car and how much do you want to spend?

There's alot of formulas to help you figure out how much power you need for what 1/4 mile time.

I think for me I'd like to make my car run about a 14 sec 1/4 mile have a limited slip and be N/A be streetable and be dead nuts reliable. I think I can do it with an H22 in more or less stock form and do it for 3 grand or less.

For me any swap that gave me a net gain of 20 hp or so was a motor that had no aftermarket support I would think it wouldnt be worth it.

wp

[SteveDX89]

B16
So would you say a stock B16 is on par (or maybe slightly better) than a stock A20 performance wise, once the gearing and such is taken into consideration?


Haha. A B16 owns an A20 performance wise. Even one that's in poor running condition.

[Swap_File]

Yeah, I didn't really take into consideration that the respective transmissions would be geared properly to work with the engine's torque. I was probably focusing too much on torque numbers, because I had seen many arguments on forums of "Torque versus HP". You have a B16, so you would definitely know what's going on.

I will have to work on going through my list of engine swaps again.

Thanks

[TheWatcher]

Haha. A B16 owns an A20 performance wise. Even one that's in poor running condition.
B16, otherwise known as the torque-less wonder. :lol:

H22, otherwise known as "in your dreams" (never been done). :lol:

Someone is selling a B20A right now in N.A. Best swap if done correctly. And mounts are not a problem.

No more B-series mounts, so you have to weld unless you can find some used.

Peace.

[SteveDX89]

B16, otherwise known as the torque-less wonder. :lol:

Still a lot faster than an A20.


H22, otherwise known as "in your dreams" (never been done). :lol:

Yes, it's been done. Maybe 3-5 times.

[88eyeguy]

Yes, it's been done. Maybe 3-5 times.

integral doesnt' count :rofl: i've seen pics of two, and heard tales of maybe two more.

Sap File:
you seem like a very organized person. that will be very helpful when it comes time to actually do the swap. as for the engine choices, the b16 or b18 would be a very good choice (personally, i prefer the b18). go with whatever you think will be a good match for your performance goals.

[snoopyloopy]

how much are you looking to spend? and how much custom work are you willing to do? seem to be the two biggest questions here. because you could probably do an h22 if you have the money for all the custom work or can diy. otherwise, the b's will do pretty good and won't require as much custom work to get in. or you can do a real work of art and shove a c30 in there...

[A20A1]

Well turbo anything and the engine efficiency goes up right so you should get better milage...

As long as you're not dumping fuel as your main means of controlling detonations.

Richer mixes doesn't always work anyways.

*******************************

EDIT: I reopened the thread,

Keep the BS fighting off the board.

[sofaking_bob]

No more B-series mounts, so you have to weld unless you can find some used.

dude.. i checked like last week on place racing mounts and axles and they were still up... expensive.. but still up

[SteveDX89]

dude.. i checked like last week on place racing mounts and axles and they were still up... expensive.. but still up

Try calling them.

[newaccorddriver]

Well turbo anything and the engine efficiency goes up right so you should get better milage...

As long as you're not dumping fuel as your main means of controlling detonations.

Richer mixes doesn't always work anyways.

*******************************

EDIT: I reopened the thread,

Keep the BS fighting off the board.


i thought by increasing the amount of air in the engine, it would pump more fuel in and therefore get less gas milage? are there performance piston rings i would be able to get so they wont get fried as soon as i try to turbo? i was thinking maybe get a T25 turbo cause i heard they spool up quickly, not a boost junkie, prefer low down torque

[SteveDX89]

Yeah, I don't see how it boosts gas mileage. More power = more air and fuel. Otherwise these people that boost like 30 psi would get awesome gas mileage.

[thabeana]

Well technically when you turbo a car, you increase it's volumetric efficiency (i.e. how well the car breathes). I know that Saab with turbos get better gas mileage than ones without. It just helps the car breathe better. And your reference to the dudes pumping 30 psi into their engines more than likely have them tuned for performance, not for gas mileage. If you set it up for efficiency, it can really pay off for ya.

[newaccorddriver]

Someone is selling a B20A right now in N.A. Best swap if done correctly. And mounts are not a problem.


how are mounts not a problem?

this question welcomes all flamers at me, but do the B series mounts mount up ANY B series engine or just specific ones?

[Swap_File]

how are mounts not a problem?
this question welcomes all flamers at me, but do the B series mounts mount up ANY B series engine or just specific ones?

The B20A is a totally different engine from the other B series engines, like the B16, B18, and B20B/B20Z (which are all interchangeable). I believe the B20A was an option for the 3rd generation accord in non-USA markets, so it should drop right in. The Accord B20A is different from the Prelude B20 that was available in the USA (Prelude B20 will not fit).

Edit: See here http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86

[sofaking_bob]

running really really really low boost will help your gas mileage. i thought that was common knowledge, and he's right about that performance vs. efficiency thing. i saw a 800+ hp s2k in superstreet and they said that in an hour long photo shoot they had to fill the car up twice.

anyway, back to the boosting, turbo and supercharger boost at very low psi (like under 7) will get you more miles to the gallon.

[kji420]

how much are you looking to spend? and how much custom work are you willing to do? seem to be the two biggest questions here. because you could probably do an h22 if you have the money for all the custom work or can diy. otherwise, the b's will do pretty good and won't require as much custom work to get in. or you can do a real work of art and shove a c30 in there...
what kinda custom work is needed for an h22 swap?

[kji420]

what kinda custom work is needed for an h22 swap?
never mind, dumb ?. so i decided to actually search. it really pays to read the posts and not just look at the all pics.

so im bout to start my swap, 98' or 99'(cant rem.) h22 into my 88'LXi any helpful tips or areas to watch out for?

[Accordtheory]

You mean you're about to drop it all off at the shop that said they would have it done in 6 hours? Good luck with that.


Why would anyone ever think a turbo car would get better mpg? You don't cruise in boost, you cruise with manifold pressure considerably less than atmospheric, with the turbo barely spinning. A turbo engine (built for turbo)will usually get worse fuel economy under cruising due a slightly lower static compression ratio. And of course much worse when driven hard, due to running around 11.8-12.2 or so air/fuel under boost vs like 14.7+ when cruising n/a, and the other factor that more energy transferred=more energy lost. (If you double your whp, your tranny soaks up more power) In other words, even if your % loss doesn't increase, the total loss still does, because your total energy transfer is higher.

[snoopyloopy]

never mind, dumb ?. so i decided to actually search. it really pays to read the posts and not just look at the all pics.
so im bout to start my swap, 98' or 99'(cant rem.) h22 into my 88'LXi any helpful tips or areas to watch out for?
so how'd the swap go?