Alignment numbers

[Acid X]

Alright, in a little under week im going to be dropping my car. I tried searching but i couldnt find any specifics.. Anywho, i'm dropping my car 2.5" with some Dropzone 2.5" springs (not coilovers) and tokico hp's all around. I'm wondering what kind of alignment numbers i should go for.

I'm obviously not going to be able to get rid of my camber problem without prelude arms or the washer trick in the rear (or a camber kit), but what numbers should i ask for when i go to get an alignment? I want the least tire wear possible, because its going to have alot of camber, and i dont want to have to buy new tires every month.

All help is appreciated!

[TheWatcher]

Alright, in a little under week im going to be dropping my car. I tried searching but i couldnt find any specifics.. Anywho, i'm dropping my car 2.5" with some Dropzone 2.5" springs (not coilovers) and tokico hp's all around. I'm wondering what kind of alignment numbers i should go for.

I'm obviously not going to be able to get rid of my camber problem without prelude arms or the washer trick in the rear (or a camber kit), but what numbers should i ask for when i go to get an alignment? I want the least tire wear possible, because its going to have alot of camber, and i dont want to have to buy new tires every month.

All help is appreciated!
Search. :)

I believe stock is zero.

Peace.

[AZmike]

I run about 0.7 degree negative camber front and rear and sit get even wear. Tires on larger wheels with shorter sidewals may be less forgiving. Consider setting the caster to maximum. More caster will increase steering effort and self-centering and will add a little negative camber as you steer. Mine went up to 2.2 degrees keeping boths sides the same and definitely like it better.

Last time I was in the alignment tech recommended a tiny amount of toe out front since the bushings deflect a little when the drive wheels are pulling the car. Wear was even before and is even afterwards.

The stock specs are 0 camber, 0 toe, .5 degrees caster iirc.

There is no setting to make up for the wear that excesive negative camber will cause. Making sure the toe isn't off is the best you can do unless you get tires that can be remounted with the inside on the outside, giving you two shoulders to wear out instead of one.

[smufguy]

yeah like mentioned above, you will have serious negative camber on 2.5" drop. I got a 2" drop and even with prelude upper control arms, i was able to drop 0.4 deg of camber and no more. I still got more than -2 camber on both sides. So get a camber kit or just chill with the high negative camber and adjust them to be the same on both sides, and same toe on both. I dont have any excessive tirewear on the insides for more than 20K miles on my front tires. They seem to be holding up fine. BUt i run 70 profile stock tires.

[Acid X]

How much harder is it to turn with the caster all the way up? I mean, if im already going to have camber, the last thing i think i'd want is to have even more camber to add to my inner tire wear.

[FyreDaug]

Its not that bad, I havent driven my car with full caster but if you have power steering you wont notice too much. The self centering though is a bonus

[Acid X]

So what's the maximum amount of caster?

[smufguy]

So what's the maximum amount of caster?

-1.31 deg to +1.31

go here for suspension specs http://www.accordproject.com/suspension%20and%20steering.htm

[Ichiban]

sort of off topic, but i would like to eventually drop my 2g, and most on this site say it shouldnt (can't) be done, because the camber is not adjustable. I read on some other thread from ages ago that Phydeaux was tossing around the idea of an adjustable strut top, but i've been tossing around the idea of slotting the lower a-arm pivot mount and using cam plates to adjust the camber by effectively lengthening or shortening the lower a-arm. If the lower a-arm is seen as a link at the bottom of its arc at normal height, a lower car would level the link, placing the ball joint farther from the CL of the car. Since the suspension is fixed at the strut top, this causes the wheel to tilt inward at the top, resulting in negative camber, right?. so slotting the mount and pushing the a-arm inward would counteract this. i was thinking of using that cam plate setup kinda like that which adjusts the toe in on the rear suspension. i believe chevy SLA suspensions use the same system.

well, if you made it through this long ass post, let me know what you think...also does anyone know the camber numbers for the 82 accord off hand?

[smufguy]

our cars run on double wishbone suspension all around. it means that we utelize upper control arm unlike most new cars with just the lower control arm and run on the system called McPhearson Strust system.

The double wishbone suspension is the best in the world, but also the heaviest of the two. this is because it uses a lot more components such as a Knuckle and an upper control arm. The camber on these cars are usually adjusted by moving the upper control arm in or out depending on the setting which inturn moves the knuckle in and out setting the desired camber numbers.

the McPhearson on the other hand is lighter but not as good at the double wishbone. The reason being, the amount of travel is directly related to how well ur shock and spring settings are. it uses the lower control arm and the knuckle is just a modified pickefork that utelizes the incorporation of the hub and the shock seat. The shock itself is the only part that connects the knuckle to the body of the car and hence the top of the shock has camber plates that moves the shock in or out which inturn moved the hub in or out to correct the camber.

The lower control arm on the other hand sets the proper distance for the hub to transmission length to run the proper axle length. Even tho theoretically its possible to pull the lower control arm to give you more positive camber and push it out to give you negative camber, its not desired since it predetermines the axle length, and hence moving it too much in or out, might cause the axle to pop out of the transfercase (the differential in direct reference).

[Acid X]

Is that 2.2 degrees total caster, AZmike, or per tire?

[AZmike]

2.2 degrees caster for each wheel. Your maximum may end up a little higher or lower depending on how the subframes are positioned on your car. My 86 Prelude (very similar front suspension design) would only go up to 1.5 degrees. With power steering the steering effort is still low. The difference isn't huge, but it is noticeable. The extra self-centering is great on the highway.

Caster only causes extra camber at the wheels are steered off center. Adding a little negative camber during cornering can frequently improve wear by keeping the outside shoulder from getting as overloaded. Increasing the caster will slightly reduce your static camber since the lower control arm will move forward and inward as the radius rod is shortened.

[smufguy]

mike, u talking about adjustment on the radius rods to change caster, you sure you were not trying to say Toe? Cause adjust the radis rod, changes the toe, not the caster.

go here for more info >>> http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

Also, Acid X, the link i gave you earlier, shows you the maximum limits adjustable on our car.

[Oldblueaccord]

mike, u talking about adjustment on the radius rods to change caster, you sure you were not trying to say Toe? Cause adjust the radis rod, changes the toe, not the caster.

go here for more info >>> http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

Also, Acid X, the link i gave you earlier, shows you the maximum limits adjustable on our car.


no it changes caster. it moves the steering arms foward or back relative to the top ball joint.

Tie rods change the toe setting.

One great post and one not so good your 50/50 today smuf.


wp

[smufguy]

ahhhh, i gotcha buddy. i guess i read it wrong. cause MIke is never wrong thats why i was wondering. i did not picture the radius rod changing the caster, but now that you talked about the tie rod, it makes sense.

but with the stock setting, it only says u can change upto -1.31/+1.31 deg for caster and -3/+3 deg for toe.

[phrenology]

sort of off topic, but i would like to eventually drop my 2g, and most on this site say it shouldnt (can't) be done, because the camber is not adjustable. I read on some other thread from ages ago that Phydeaux was tossing around the idea of an adjustable strut top, but i've been tossing around the idea of slotting the lower a-arm pivot mount and using cam plates to adjust the camber by effectively lengthening or shortening the lower a-arm. If the lower a-arm is seen as a link at the bottom of its arc at normal height, a lower car would level the link, placing the ball joint farther from the CL of the car. Since the suspension is fixed at the strut top, this causes the wheel to tilt inward at the top, resulting in negative camber, right?. so slotting the mount and pushing the a-arm inward would counteract this. i was thinking of using that cam plate setup kinda like that which adjusts the toe in on the rear suspension. i believe chevy SLA suspensions use the same system.

well, if you made it through this long ass post, let me know what you think...also does anyone know the camber numbers for the 82 accord off hand?

I know what you're taking about cause I'm in the same situation. No the camber isn't adjustable. To get rear end down I just swapped a pair of generic coil over springs in to the spring cups. They don't seat 100% flush which is a bit of a problem. I was working on an aftermarket solution with my engineer to build a custom seat adapter to allow the coilover pedestals to sit flush without digging in the spring seat weld. But we were in a rush and tossed the idea and just dropped the fabrication. As it sits the rear lower arms compensate by forcing the wheels out slightly. I don't know off hand the actual deviation from factory camber but it isn't visable. I used Koni adjustable rear struts. Initially I used a second "chopped" factory coil around the coilover to form a double coil system but because the spring rates were totally different it wouldn't lower properly, the weight got hung up on one coil not evenly distributed. So I went with the cheap coil overs.

The front was tough too. I bought a pair of aftermarket "sturdy cargo" springs for the front with a higher spring rate and then chopped about an inch off the bottom. Unfortunately they don't seat well when you chop them because of the shape of the spring bottom. I managed to get them clamped into the strut towers. I have a link somewhere...there was one after market company that offered a full set of 1-1.5" lowering springs but I never tried em'. The bottom line is that as long as you don't go lower than 1-1.5" drop then you shouldn't run into major camber issues...if you are trying to slam your car down then I suggest "reinventing the wheel" so to speak but with all of your suspension components. Because our cars have the more primative McPherson deal we are kind of stuck unless you like cutting and welding.

When I get the car back out here there is talk of rebuilding the entire suspension to incorporate the 3Gs double wishbone...but thats just an idea right now. I might look for another car with smaller double wishbone components and try to graft them onto the 2G body. Either way if I decide to auto cross or rallye the stock set up will never do fpr competition. I would really like to make a one-piece coilover for our application to match the double wishbone experiment.

Right now with no garage to work out of and no car things couldn't be tougher. Since my car will probably never see the street again...I'm gonna go for broke trying to make it into a Rally test bed once it get out here. Sorry for the long ass reply but you wanted to know. :lol:

BTW this suspension thread had been jacked by 2G racers...:rockon:

[Acid X]

Haha. It's okay guys.. So i want the maximum POSITIVE camber, not negative, correct?

[AZmike]

I'd go for something between zero and -1 degree of camber (wheels leaning inward). Positive camber is never good since it puts addtional load on the outside shoulder all the time--you get uneven wear and reduced handling. A little bit of negative camber is usually good since it helps distribute the load more evenly over the contact patch when cornering.

Shortening the radius rod does add toe-in. However, since caster should be set first, camber second, and toe last, it shouldn't cause the end result to be any different.

[Ichiban]

hmmm....if the lower arms are shortened to compensate for excess negative camber, it may cause the cv axles to bottom as opposed to pulling out of the inner cup or transmission, some measurements of the axle fully extended and collapsed would provide the working range of the suspension adjustment. however with a mild drop (1-1/2'') the slight increase in negative camber might be welcome due to better cornering, handling, no? if anyone has links or info for 2g drop springs, post em up here. I went to koni's website but it seems all they have are stock replacement struts listed...

[Acid X]

Oh crap, i meant to say, i need positive CASTER, not camber. Negative caster is bad right?

[AZmike]

Positive caster. The kingpin axis (axis through upper and lower ball joints) should tilt backward. Negative caster would make the steering not want to center--not fun.

A little negative camber on a 2g would be fine. You can probably get away with more in the rear since the car is front heavy and the majority of braking is done by the front tires. The only problem is that if you lower it and end up with too much there is no easy way to correct it. You could measure the hub to fender distances, put the car on stands, and then use a jack to see how much camber you get depending on how far the suspension is compressed.

[Acid X]

Very interesting. So i'll be sure to ask about that.. So the numbers i want are 0 toe and maximum caster in the front. I know that i cant do anything about my camber. Haha.

[AZmike]

Zero toe is safe. The caster must be equal or the steering will pull so whichever side has a lower max setting is the number that you should go with.

If the tech suggests a little toe out front and seems confident about how much you may want to go with that. The front wheels deflect the bushings since they pull the car around so the right amount of toe out with the car sitting turns to zero toe when you're driving. Like I said above, last time I was in I tried this--I couldn't tell the difference though.

[Acid X]

Sounds like a viable thing. I'm not sure where im getting my alignment yet, but i'll be getting it a little after i get my suspension done.