New Engine?!

[w00tw00t111]

Hey guys, well some of you might know that my accord has been at the body shop for almost 5 months now and.... almost no work has been completed on it. Me and my dad agreed that we're going to haul it off from this guy's shop and take it to another shop. While all this has been happening I've just been saving up my money. I originally was going to turbo and actually have quite a few pieces just sitting in my bedroom such as the turbo, IC, BOV, and wastegate. Well.... I've decided against that mainly b/c I want to finish the accord project while spending the least amount of money so that I can move on to my mustang. Right now I have a DX and when it went to the paint shop it was burning oil. From what a mechanic friend and I could access it was because of piston blow-by. So, when the car got out of the body shop I was going to have to replace the piston rings. Well, all this time I've wanted to convert to EFI. So, my question for you guys is... Should I go to the junk yard buy an EFI a20 and just start my build up now? The cost I was quoted for the junk yard engine was $350. Seems pretty fair to me. What I'm wanting to do is have a P&P on the heads, enlarge the intake valves to 32mm and exhaust to 39mm while getting them to unshroud the valves with a three angle valve seat job. The main question I have is how much we can overbore our engines. Since, I would be ordering "custom" pistons any ways from diamond pistons. So, how far can we overbore our cylinders? Also, what compression ratio would be as far as a daily driver would want to run. I was considering 11:1 but if I could go higher that would be preferably just as long as I wouldn't have to run race gas. We have 93 octane in the lone star state :) Any advice, suggestions, comments, or questions would be greatly appreciated!

[smufguy]

well i have parts that you can have for dirt cheap that are for efi vehicle. I have the ecu and intake manifold and a spare head (EFI head) and such. If any, it will make your life a lot easier. So if you are interested, please let me know, i know with my understanding of your urgency and your willingness to spend little money and my urgency to get rid of these parts might come in handy.

$350 sounds like a nice price, and i maybe able to get you for cheaper or even the same amount, but only with more parts. LIke the fuel feed lines and stuff. Give me a buzz if you are interested.

[3G Jester]

so if you got the efi you would build up an all motor a20? or would the "build up" consist of the turbo setup? what turbo? j/y or other?.
this thread has more information then you can shake a stick at---read through it all...sean was the first to produce a turbo'd daily driver i beleive--or at least tell us about it. its got a lot of good info--keeping stock compression ratios, timing, ect.
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=7872
other ideas:
Cam regrind
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37583

[w00tw00t111]

No. I would be scrappping the turbo build up. Bascially all I would want to do for the a20 is head work, cam regrind, up the fuel system i.e. walbro pump, and bump the compression up while overboring the block. My goal is 200 hp. I have a p76 ecu and am converting to OBD-1 so tuning won't be a problem.
Praveen:if you could beat that $350 price and throw in more parts that would be great but, the only problem I can foresee is the fact that you're in NJ and I'm in Texas so shipping would be outragousley expensive. And I would inevitebly be better off buying from a local dealer.

The questions I have basically are what's the highest compression ratio our engines can safely handle w/o having to upgrade the valve springs and what's the safest overbore that we can have.

[smufguy]

damn, i did not know you lived all the way in texas. i have to see how much the UPS or FED ex would be. but i know the weight will be a killer tho.

[w00tw00t111]

Yeah sorry about that. I didn't realize it wasn't in my avatar. But if you don't mind checking with UPS and Fed ex or DHL I would greatly appreciate it. Also, just pm me with the price and what would be included.

Any other suggestions for the compression numbers would be greated appreciated. :)

[Robs89LXi]

If you are serious about this, then here is what I would suggest. Go to Pick-a-Part on Wallisville Rd. and pull a complete EFI engine. There are several to choose from, and should be a lot cheaper than $350. Call Tom Scroggins at Scroggins Machine, Inc. (713) 759-1772
http://www.scrogginsmachine.com/index.htm
He rebuilt mine, and is an excellent person to deal with. He will already be familiar with the Diamond pistons, and can get you performance ACL bearings for the crank and rods (he has the numbers).
If you need the name/number for Diamond, let me know.
Total rebuild of my short block was just under $500, and it was done right.

[w00tw00t111]

Alright good deal rob. Thanks for the suggestion. I had forgotten that there was another Houston 3g'er. When you had Tom assemble your shortblock did he deck it, overbore, or P&P anything? If I was to go to a Pick a Part to pull an engine would it really be worth it? I mean if I only saved 50 or so dollars for 4 or 5 hours of work I probably couldn't justify it. I've gotten stuff from junk yards before but I've never been to a pick-a-part nor have I ever yanked out an a20. Also, was the $500 just assembly fee? I know that diamond pistons typically run in the $400 dollar range so I'm assuming that it was $500 in labour cost. I'll have to give him a call, the only engine machinist that I have delt with is RoadMasters off of vetrans memorial dr, just south of Beltway 8. Thanks for your help!

[FyreDaug]

I donno if your gonna get 200hp outta that, maybe 180 if your lucky. Compression and overbore adding about 40hp, cam- 7, IHE hopefully another 7-10 and pnp could give you another 15. Where does this mystical 200 come in? 115+40+7+10+15, thats being generous at 187. You should probably balance the crank and get some good valve springs and rev it up high atleast.

[89ACCORDVTECH]

i have a fuel injected A20A3 complete 90,000 miles on it for $200 ,if your interested.

[Robs89LXi]

Alright good deal rob. Thanks for the suggestion. I had forgotten that there was another Houston 3g'er. When you had Tom assemble your shortblock did he deck it, overbore, or P&P anything?
Here is what I had done:
Boil the block and crank
Paint the block
New gaskets, seals, freeze pugs
Square and deck the block
x-ray and polish the crank
Bore and hone the cylinders to 0.020 overbore
Install new pistons/rings (I bought those)
Install new ACL rod and main bearings
Recondition rods
Resurface the flywheel

If I was to go to a Pick a Part to pull an engine would it really be worth it? I mean if I only saved 50 or so dollars for 4 or 5 hours of work I probably couldn't justify it. I've gotten stuff from junk yards before but I've never been to a pick-a-part nor have I ever yanked out an a20.
No, what I meant was to use your own block. Why buy one if you are going to have it reconditioned anyway? Just pick up the other stuff you need for the EFI conversion; should be a lot less.

Also, was the $500 just assembly fee? I know that diamond pistons typically run in the $400 dollar range so I'm assuming that it was $500 in labour cost.
That included everything I listed above, including the rod and main bearings. I bought the Diamond pistons/rings through Sean, so that was not included in the price.

[88Accord-DX]

I'll answer a question you have in the first post.

The farthest you can overbore the block is .040 thousandths of a inch.

[AccordEpicenter]

you should go turbo

[Immeraufdemhund]

and the main difference between efi and carb (engine wise) is both manifolds. You have to run all the wires and the one fuel line, (i'm sure your aware of that though) oh and a new fuel tank. Might want to consider the racing b16 IM from what i hear you have to redrill the mounting holes and that's about it. Their is a thread about it someweres. I agree with that boiling and polishing thing. That sounds like a rocking deal! I do like half that work for 300 but i'm not nearly as experianced as that dude sounds like...so under 500... oh yah kick butt and take names with that deal.

I dont think i agree with the turbo though. That immediatly jumps your price up a bunch and you have to change your compression ratio. Granted the ECU you have is going to be easy to change set up for the turbo, but their are still other issues.

I'd say you have a rather good platform to go from, keep us posted.

[w00tw00t111]

Funny that this post was resurrected because I was going to call scroggins to get a price on a few things.
Welding the head
P&P
3angle valve job
Remove guide ends
unshroude the valves
and an Extrude hone
Hopefully with the comp bumped up to 10 - 11:1 I'll hit near 200bhp.

[rjudgey]

You won't fit 39mm valves in the exhaust seat and you'll also hit the chamber wall too, id also stick with stock bore size but if badly worn 83mm is okay, also inlet valves if your going to the trouble of having bigger ones go for the biggest which is 33mm so 33mm inlet with 37mm exhaust.
Have the block decked and the head skimmed to raise CR use stock Honda pistons for A20A3/A4 and that should see you raise CR upto around 10.5:1 a bit less if you have the chambers flowed and valve unshrouded which should still be fine.
Also i'd stick with carbs save money for some new Weber 45's and drop those on the head with a custom inlet manifold, will get you much more performance ans you won't have to worry about electronics and sensors and stuff with all the above and a worked over head etc. etc. you should see an easy 200bhp with a custom designed exhuast header and system with a mad cam should see even more 220bhp depending on if you use a Cat or sport cat or no cat!!

[w00tw00t111]

Well, Richard I'm not overboring and due to cost issues I probably won't be enlarging any of the valves. Since you know probably better then any of us here, what do you a good estimate bhp would be if I got a
3angle valve job *or 5 but, I was told 3 is better all around for low&high lift*
a port&polish
Removing the exhaust guide ends
Unshrouding the valves
Extrude Honeing *is this really necessary?*
Then welding inside the head to raise the comp to 10.5 or 11 *don't want to replace pistons if I don't have too*
And skimming the head just enough to make it level
After I throw the head on I'll convert to ITB
And have a 2.5" exhaust system mandrel bent w/ removable cat, and a glasspack
282 Colt Cam or maybe a little longer duration I'll have to talk to them
I don't convert to the weber's because I would then fail inspection and I have to be able to get a sticker.
The reason to convert to uberdata is b/c of tuning reasons.
With all this what would the horsepower be do you think?
I'm going to ask the shop how much it would be to enlarge each valve but, I just am pretty sure it'll be way out of my budget. But, doesn't hurt to ask.
If you're saying 200-220bhp is a good guess w/ the larger valves would I be more in the 180-200 range w/ stock valves?
Thanks for all the help Richard!

[rjudgey]

Who ever told you that 3 angle is better than 5 angle for low lift and high lift is an idiot and i'm neing polite whatever you do don't let whoever said person do any work, he's probably putting you off because he can't do it or can't be asked to do it properly, 3 Angle with radiused edges is a comprimise but a 5 angle with the edges rounded off is better as it will be more trumpet whaped and will be nice and smooth for the mixture to get pass, but 3 angle is better than nothing if you can't find anyone to do the above. Have you not considered doing some of this yourself?? Dead easy to do the valve throats etc. where the edges are after he's cut the seats you just round off the sharp edges can be done with a finger and some fine wet and dry or a dremel with flap wheel with wet and dry attached. The bigger valves will help loads and will only cost extra for the valves as the seats your paing to have cut anyways? i pay in the U.K. £15 pounds each so it isn't cheap but the results are well worth the extra money, but if you really are hard up then stock valves with a nice back cut to the head to shape them better and a nice finish will be adequate between 180-200bhp you won't gain anymore than that as the valves will limit any extra flow. As with the camshaft choice is okay will be quite lopey though and won't like idling low or smoothly a 275 maybe a better comprimise with an A20 head a 275 will still pull to 7.5k with properly moddifed head even with stock valves. You should still consider having a custom header madeup or at least a pacesetter but chop the main pipe off and fit 2.25" piping on or 2.5" to match what you along with a flexi pipe, anything less will bottleneck the engine and reduce rpm's and bhp.
As with welding up the head don't bother what you gain in CR you will loose in flow theirs just not enough room to make it worth while it's a hemi chamber for a reason so i'd leave it as it is, just concentrate on removing any sharp machined edges and blending them into the chamber walls and making sure it's all flush and smooth with the valve seats, this is something a run of the mill Head guy won't do properly so i wouldn't other asking them to do it, from my experience you better off learning to handle a dremel and practie on some old piece of junk till you get it right using old valves to protect the seats etc. Unfotunately these guy's work to howmuch you spend and getting the perfect combustion chamber takes many many hours of labour, takes me 20 hours to do 4 properly witht hem all cc matched so imagine paying somone 20 hours labour?? And thats just for doing the chambers.
Oh also you don't need bigger ports on the inlet side as your retaining stock valve sizes and even if you were going bigger their still big enough if a B20A uses the smae port size and has 33mm inlet valves as opposed to 30mm i think Honda knows what size is best. My ET1 head only has inlet ports 36mm round yet that still screamed upto 7.5k personally i think A20a inlet ports are way too big but you can't do anything about that unfortunately apart from tune it up so that they are fully utillised.
To raise the CR ratio above stock just use Honda A20A4 pistons which have 9.4:1 CR ratio then have .5mm skimmed off the block deck and then have the Head shaved 1mm you can go as far as 1.5mm but you'll have to deepen the valve pockets and also if you warp the head you won't be able to level it off again. This will increase your CR ratio quite a bit but depends on howmuch metal you take out of the chambers you may only be upto 10:1 but as it's for road use and stock gas might be just as well.

An A20 with a 280 duration camshaft, standard valve sizes but with a properly moddified head and racing seats and valve profile, stock Honda 9.4:1 pistons with decked and skimmed head everything balanced etc. Header with 2.25" collector and your exhaust system, ITB's with 45mm diameter choke with Re-mappable ECU should be good for 200bhp without the Cat with the Cat drops to 185-190bhp depending on the type of Cat you get sports or racing Cat etc. But it will take a long time to get it setup and dialed in perfect and you may have to look at being able to change the camshaft timing to to maximise the output and tune the peak power and torque bacnds you can do the cheapo way file outhte groove in the cam pulley and use different gauge wire inbetween the pulley and the key or get a adjustable one fabricated or try and buy one of someone else from the last group buy.

P.S. i'm having DCOE/ITB inlet manifold madeup at the moment with 5.5" long runners if you want one later let us know would cost about £220-250 all in depending on howmuch the shipping costs longer the runner the better if you can get one madeup where you are will be cheaper also with ITB's try and fit the longest trumpets you can as well 75-100mm or longer will help with torque. With everything done above engine should rev really well 8k easy with 280 duration camshaft.

[w00tw00t111]

So basically I called Scroggins and they said that they're unable to do perfomance machining they're more in buisness to rebuild. The person I spoke with did refer me to a shop that specifically does do performance machining. When I asked him about a 5 angle radiused or a 3 angle he said that it was "Not possible because the valves are so small they can't fit all those angles in there, 1 maybe 2 angles is all we can do" So obviously they're out if I wanted a 3-5 angle valve job. So still trying to find someone that can do it. Argh