87 Honda Accord Ignition timing Problem

[momin]

My 87 accord lxi (fuel inj- hatch back) is having pinging problems at low speed ~ 20 mph (pinging goes away
at high speed). I found vacuume in both of the vacuum hoses (#12 and # 15) supplying vacuume to the vacuume
advance diaphram (of the distributor). I can not adjust the timing as per manual (even though i move the distributor).

The Camshaft cover is also leaking oil (may be due to mismatch timing).

Any suggestions ?

[88Accord-DX]

Use an inductive timing light (gun) when setting the timing correctly.

[b8er]

what is stock timming suposto be anyways?

[88Accord-DX]

I will basically explain how to use a timing gun. When you put the timing gun on the #1 spark plug wire & point the timing light at the crank shaft pulley. It should hit the indention that is on the crankshaft pulley at O degrees or so at idle. When you hit the accelerator it will advance some, due to vacuum advance. When you time it, you plug both vacuum lines so it don't jump to get a accurate reading.

[Oldblueaccord]

what is stock timming suposto be anyways?

I think its timed to the red mark while idling. White is TDC. Thats off my memory always go by the sticker on the inside of the hood. I think carb cars are maybe differant.


Timing by ear (redneck method) turning the distributor the idle goes up its advancing. Lower idle its retarding.

I think also there should be vacuum at only one port at idle. But our cars its really confusing how the advance works etc. The are prone to failing also.

Next higher grade of gas should get rid of the ping or there is a problem.



wp

[momin]

Thx all of you guys for your advice. Here are some of the things that i have tried with no luck so far :
1) Changed the high octance (92).
2) Changed the TW and Thermal Switch on the Thermostat housing (this was suggested by the Honda Dealer). I even checked the voltages on the TW and thermal switch connector and both showed 5 volts (when turn the ignition switch on).
3) I can not get the timing mark to the red line (which is i believe is 15degree for my Automatic lxi).

Like i said that the only thing i notice is that i have "Vacuume on #12 and #15) on the vacuume advance diaphragm, which tells me that somehow the ignition control selenoid valve is on (which i beleive get the signal from ECU), but i am not getting any code on ECU.
What is ignition box ? is that the ignition switch ?
Aslo, how to check the "Vaccume Advance diaphram" ?

Thx again.

[lamontlamont]

if you car is pinging. get 93 octane gas( i notice that sunoco is the best. i have had exxon 93 still ping) and change the spark plugs and spark plug wires. also. retard the timing as much as it will go

[Oldblueaccord]

Thx all of you guys for your advice. Here are some of the things that i have tried with no luck so far :
1) Changed the high octance (92).
2) Changed the TW and Thermal Switch on the Thermostat housing (this was suggested by the Honda Dealer). I even checked the voltages on the TW and thermal switch connector and both showed 5 volts (when turn the ignition switch on).
3) I can not get the timing mark to the red line (which is i believe is 15degree for my Automatic lxi).
Like i said that the only thing i notice is that i have "Vacuume on #12 and #15) on the vacuume advance diaphragm, which tells me that somehow the ignition control selenoid valve is on (which i beleive get the signal from ECU), but i am not getting any code on ECU.
What is ignition box ? is that the ignition switch ?
Aslo, how to check the "Vaccume Advance diaphram" ?
Thx again.


you ll have to back the timing off a little if its pinging at low speed. You prolly cant hear it at higher rpm but its there. Long term you could hurt the motor. As far the advance Im reading up on it the advacne mechanism can be replaced in the mean time.

You need a manual for the rest procedures or goto the library and copy what u need.


wp

[Oldblueaccord]

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=47542

i posted some stuff here too about testing your advance.


wp

[momin]

Thx oldblue for your advice , i did look at the thread refer by you. My problem (as i explained) that i am getting vacuume at idle ( on both of the vacuume lines which are going to the vacuume advance diaphragm) due to ECU activating the ignition selenoid valve.
I also read somewhere that ECU activates the selenoid valve due to the following 3 conditions : 1) TW/TA sensors, 2) Engine Speed, 3) Manifold vacuum.
I have checked the #1 item , but do not know how to check other 2 items as above ? Any idea on that ?
Thx

[Oldblueaccord]

Thx oldblue for your advice , i did look at the thread refer by you. My problem (as i explained) that i am getting vacuume at idle ( on both of the vacuume lines which are going to the vacuume advance diaphragm) due to ECU activating the ignition selenoid valve.
I also read somewhere that ECU activates the selenoid valve due to the following 3 conditions : 1) TW/TA sensors, 2) Engine Speed, 3) Manifold vacuum.
I have checked the #1 item , but do not know how to check other 2 items as above ? Any idea on that ?
Thx

Yes

p 24-9 Honda book (gray)

Engine normal running temp.

Disconnect the 6 pin connector (picture shows the map sensor box/its on the side of it I think) Check voltage at the BLK/YEL terminal on the connector the WHT is negative, should be voltage at or above 1500 rpm. if there is voltage it says replace the Igntion control sol. valve. I'd guess its inside that map sensor box.

Down and dirty I'd just plug it off(that vacuum line) and see what that does timing wise for you.

wp

[momin]

Vacuume is ok as i checked the vacuume on #15 once the car warmed up then there was no vacuum on #15 that means its not the ignition selenoid valve.
What about the spark plug foul problem, i mean do i have a preignition problem? Should i use cold spark plugs ? I have autolite (standard), i just bough Bosh-2 (platinum) and going to try it tomorrow.

[Oldblueaccord]

Id use the regular NGK's myself. Im thinking your having the same problem as Struggle but i dont know what the fix is.

Done a timing belt lately? is this something that been going a long time or just started recently?



wp

[shepherd79]

here is what you do, disconnect vacuum lines from distributor and plug them in. Check the timing. it should be at TDC. adjust if need it. reconnect the vacuum lines and check the timing. if you are not getting 15deg as you should be, replace the distributor advance (it probably doesn't hold vacuum).

If everything you did works, you may want to check your timing belt and make sure it is adjusted right.

[A20A1]

Don't forget to warm the car up fully.

[tallazzFilipino]

what is stock timming suposto be anyways?

i haven't had any luck on honda-tech and on here about finding out tha timing for this car model. and when i ask in other timing threads, nobody answers.

well, i'm asking again... what is the timing for an '87 Accord LXi 5spd-manual (CA edition)?

thanks,
-taF

[azazel_18_2]

Your timing should be 15 BTDC +/- 3
Make sure you pull the vacuum advance lines off before you try to time it and that it has warmed up.

[POS carb]

I'm not sure about the EFI but it should be the same:
On my LX both vacuum advance lines had vacuum. According to the shop manual, only one should have vacuum while the motor is cold. It's supposed to shut off once the engine reaches operating temp. I stuck a metal beebee in the secondary advance and voila, passed emmissions with the timing in spec. The secondary on the carb adds about another 3 degrees which can cause pinging

[tallazzFilipino]

Your timing should be 15 BTDC +/- 3
Make sure you pull the vacuum advance lines off before you try to time it and that it has warmed up.

okay, a match. one person told me 14, another told me 15, and a third person told me to just retard it all tha way. i'll go with 15. also where are tha line-up marks on tha engine? i can't find it or i'm missing it. i've only worked on B- and D- series engines before.

i'm not really wanting to spend money on the manual as i've only had tha car for about a month and am just tryin' to get it smogged so i can sell it. it's sitting in my cousin's garage leaking oil and i can't park it out on tha public street because it's not registered due to it needing to be smogged first. it has already collected several parking tickets for no current tabs.

are tha advance lines hose- #12 & hose- #15?


I'm not sure about the EFI but it should be the same:
On my LX both vacuum advance lines had vacuum. According to the shop manual, only one should have vacuum while the motor is cold. It's supposed to shut off once the engine reaches operating temp. I stuck a metal beebee in the secondary advance and voila, passed emmissions with the timing in spec. The secondary on the carb adds about another 3 degrees which can cause pinging

would that same theory (closing tha secondary advance vacuum hose with a beebee) apply to tha PGM-Fi (CA edition) engine?

also, just another question...
when i bought tha car, tha PGM-Fi light used to turn on. when i brought it to tha TEST ONLY Center, it failed at both 15mph and 25mph. i checked tha ECU code and it gave me tha code for tha EGR system. i was told tha first thing checked was tha vacuum chamber as it cloggs up. i checked it out and it was indeed clogged up. i replaced it. car smogged up badly then eventually goes away. PGM-Fi light never turns on again. i take it to tha TEST ONLY Center a second time and it fails at 15mph again, but this time passes at 25mph. tha guy at tha Center told me i was on tha right track, and where tha car failed at 15mph was on tha carbon monoxide. he told me i was running rich and to check all my electrical system to tha EGR system and see if i have good grounding.

i remember when i bought tha car that there was a receipt for a timing belt replacement. i also remembered how high tha idle was (between 1.5rpm to 2rpm). so i figured tha they never set tha timing right when they replaced tha belt, so hence my wanting to retard tha timing hopefully running on tha lean(er) side.

anyway, my other question was why, now, when i start my car up (from cold), a minute later, it idles up and down?

just to clear things up, my goal is to get this engine to pass CA SMOG so i can sell it and get a better daily driver. i'm almost there. it already passes at 25mph. i just need it to pass at 15mph. it used to worse. i appreciate any help you guys can give me.

thanks,
-taF

[momin]

ok Guys here are the things i have checked with no luck in fixing pinging problem:
1) EGR checked with vacuum pump, found ok.
2) Vacuume Advance diaphram looks bad so i changed with new but still have problem.
3) My brakes also goes to all the way to floor (may be due to high rpm ?), looks like that exhaust seal is also leaking some oil (may be due to car is getting over heat).

Or IT is EXHAUST MANIFOLD GASKIT LEAK CAUSING THE PINGING PROBLEM. SHOULD I CHANGED THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD GASKIT CHANGED FIRST ?

Need some suggestions/advice. I know if i take this old car to Honda then it will cost me fortune to fix.

[momin]

OK Guys : The problem of pinging has been fixed. I finally opened the cylinder head and found that about 1/8" of the head gaskit was broke(eaten away) b/w cylinder 1 & 2. Installed a new headgas kit and also the new intake/exhaust manifold gaskit. Car runs good.
Thx for every one's help.

[Blkblurr]

Does the vacuum advance move when the vacuum line is replaced? You would have to apply vacuum to it from an external source to see if it moves with the cap off. The mechanism could be stuck even though you replaced the diaphram. You may also have a bad vacuum control valve.