89 carb crazy idle. [Archive] - 3geez.com - Classic Honda Accord & Prelude Forum

carfreak_84

10-29-2005, 06:24 PM

i went out to start my car to go to school, it did its normal 2500 rpm while it was cold. i took off after it warmed up
and it was staying at 2500. i stopped at a red light, i had the clutch in and the car all of the sudden started revving to 4000 rpm. i tapped the gas and it would not go back down, so i got to the next red light and the idle was sitting at 1500rpm, the by itself without me touching the gas the idle went all the way up to 4000. i have been trying to figure this out for about 3 months...any ideas??

FyreDaug

10-29-2005, 07:36 PM

Vacuum lines? Maybe your secondary is getting vacuum when it shouldnt

A20A1

10-30-2005, 12:26 PM

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=44074

lackej1971

10-30-2005, 02:17 PM

Hey, My 88 Accord is doing the same thing!!! No matter how warm it gets, the RPMs will not decrease. I am starting to think that it is the Fast Idle Unloader being stuck in place, but I am not sure. I removed the vacuum lines today that go to it and it they seemed to be REALLY stopped up with something hard. I cannot clear them out and to be honest, I am a bit scared to remove it because it's my only car that runs at all right now.
P.S. Can somebody please tell me where I can get a fast idle unloader for my car? Everywhere I call just says "A WHAT????". Then they tell me that their computer won't show them anything!!!! Alot of help that is.:sadwave:

A20A1

10-30-2005, 04:10 PM

Some things found inside the vacuum ports are called "Vacuum Restrictors" They inserted into the vacuum port... they are a copper color when new but they turn black or dark brown/green when they get older.

If the vacuum line is hard then it should be replaced since the rubber isn't flexable and it doesn't always seal as tightly when you reinstall it.

lackej1971

10-30-2005, 11:23 PM

Hmmmm? Never heard of those before. The hose is still flexible, but there is VERY LITTLE vacuum on either one of them. I really don't understand any of this stuff and at this point, i am grasping at straws. Parts stores don't know what the hell I need, so what do I do next? It just started doing this crap about a week ago!

A20A1

10-31-2005, 01:51 AM

RamThis

10-31-2005, 03:18 PM

You might want to check "Majestic Honda" for parts
Also might want a rebuild kit.
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=5350

Also download the shop manual
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=25137

.
.
.

That is the best thing ever!!!! I think Im going to like this site, such a wealth of Honda knowledge :rockon:

lackej1971

11-01-2005, 11:38 PM

OK, this past weekend, i went through hell with my Honda. It was running "so-so" on Sunday, BUT on Monday, I went outside to see how it would run and it would not even start. Whats more, when i would try to start it, something electrical was kicking out and I would have to reset it by removing the Battery Cable and replacing it. So I thought, "Bad Starter"?? So I looked on here for how to remove it. Haynes Manual was totally USELESS. Well, it was not really that much on here either so i had to go it alone. It took 3 hours to FINALLY remove it.
When I removed the hoses to get to the starter, the nastiest coolant came out of them. OK to limit this story, the starter was OK and it seems that I was not pushing the clutch in far enough. Now, I am in the process of cleaning my cooling system out. Any ideas or product recommendations would be nice.

This car had the head gaskets replaced and I told the mechanic to put new antifreeze in it. This stuff still had oil in the coolant!!!! SO, now I am starting to think that the "Thermovalves" have been gunked up and may be causing the crappy performance of my car.

What do you guys think? (My car idles up and down sometimes and sometimes it runs good)

Thanks, James:stupid:

RamThis

11-02-2005, 03:26 PM

If you have oil in your coolant, you either have a blown head gasket, or a cracked head........ Im not sure of any other ways oil can be introduced into your cooling system. Im a V-8 guy mostly so there may be other avenues for the oil to contaminate the coolant that I dont know about?? Either way, oil in the coolant is a BAAAADDDD sign. Usually means the head has to come off one way or another. Might check your coolant system for pressure or bubbles from exhaust gasses blowing by into your water jackets.
As for flushing out the system, pour in some of that Prestone radiator flush, drive it a couple days, drain it, start it and drive it another day, then what I did was drain it, refill with water, and start it and let it idle with the heater on full heat and the blower on low. Then I opened the rad drain just enough so it was draining a pencil sized stream of water, and had fresh water flowing in from the top a the same speed. I let the car run for a half hour or more like this, until the water that was cycling through looked crystal clear. Once you get to that point, shut the car off, let the radiator fully drain, tighten the drain, and dump in your coolant with some Prestone Rust Protection. My car was soooo rusted when I got it from the previous owner I had to replace the radiator in it, and flushed it time and time again to finally get it all out, and the method of draining while matching the flow with fresh water while it heats and circulates the whole system seems to work the best and the most thorough.

lackej1971

11-02-2005, 08:56 PM

Hey, Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I know that oil in the coolant is a BADDDD sign. Fact is that this car had a blown head gasket when I bought it for $200.00. I had it replaced and I told the mechanic to also flush the radiator too. He replaced the gasket but not the coolant. I have seen no sign of water in my oil (yet:uh: ) so I think that the oil was residual from when he did not change my coolant. It was probably in the engine and never came out for a long time. Anyway, i flushed it pretty good today and I am happy to report that it runs better than before. I really never thought that the coolant in a car mattered quite so much, but now I know better. I still have to flush this thing out a few more times to get it as clean as it needs to be, but for now, I am going to drive it a few days.
Man, the coolant was so rusty that it was the color of poop. Made me sick just looking at it! No wonder this car was stalling. I can't wait to get it running really good. my neighbors are starting to question my sanity for messing with this car, but I have to admit that I have a real soft spot for it. It is just fun to drive. I really don't ever want to sell it and it beats the hell out of a new car payment.
Come on baby, please keep running good. I have faith in ya.
James
P.S. How does junk in a cars coolant affect the "thermovalves" and how much/hard are they to replace if necessary?

A20A1

11-02-2005, 08:57 PM

Other oil; If your automatic ATF can bleed into the base of the radiator.

lackej1971

11-02-2005, 09:00 PM

Thanks for the reply. It is a stanrd shift car. Can the transmission oil do the same.
Oh, what kind of oil do you use in a manual tranny? When I replaced my oil oil, I was instructed to use gear oil. I did that a year ago and it still shift pretty good. What do you say?

James

RamThis

11-02-2005, 09:16 PM

Other oil; If your automatic ATF can bleed into the base of the radiator.

Ahh yes, forgot about that..... :idea:

stat1K

11-02-2005, 09:35 PM

first of all, isn't that idle a bit high to begin with... the normal idle for the a20 is supposed to be 750 +- 50 rpm i thought, but it sounds a lot like a vaccum line since that will cause the loping... i'd definitely check that problem before any others.

lackej1971

11-03-2005, 07:00 AM

Thanks for the reply. I promise, I have looked until there are holes in my eyes for vacuum hoses that are off or damaged. While I too agree that the idle is too high on my car, and I know that it should be 700 - 800 rpm, I cannot seem to make mine go that low. When it gets down to about 1000 rpm (through adjustment), then when I start to drive the car, it will invariably start quitting on me when I turn corners or press the clutch in to stop at a sign, etc...

Most folks think that they have survived something if their car shuts off while they are in a turn and they have the mental capacity to get the car restarted and continue on down the road. Well, it's a normal thing for me. I start to tense up when I get to the turns in my trip home just so I can get ready for the shock of the car shutting off. I am a basket case!!!

I have adjusted the float level to the correct setting and it seems to be doing some better, but i am still having to "feather" the gas to keep it from quitting when I go into a right 90 degree turn (especially at night???). I also pulled the fuel line off the Carb and used the fuel pump to squirt some gas out of the line into a cup. Well, it had some water in it, so I put some IsoHeet in my tank and I am in the process of burning it out now.

I will consider any and all improvements suggested to try and make this car run as long as possible. Please help. Are there any valves that may need replacing that would help this car get a more steady idle?

Thanks, James :sad2:

RamThis

11-03-2005, 02:59 PM

Sounds like you need to drain your fuel tank and dry it out. Also, there is a tech post on here that shows how to remove the top had off the carb to gain access to the fuel bowl, you need to do that as well to get the water out of the fuel bowl. You also need to remove the fuel filters and blow out the lines with some compressed air and possibly some carb cleaner spray, and replace both your filters. Finally pop in some new spark plugs and the problem should go away.

The reason it dies on a turn is because you are sloshing the water in your fuel bowl over to the jets and you give your engine a nice shot of water in the cylinders and it basically grounds out the spark plug for a moment and makes your fuel vapor disappear and replaced with water vapor. This really isnt damaging to an engine, in fact, you probably have very nice clean cylinders from the water injection you are getting lol.

lackej1971

11-03-2005, 10:54 PM

WOW! Thank You so much for explaining the turning problem to me. I was absolutely tripping out over this. Let me ask you something: Do you think that I could just inject some IsoHeet fuel/water drier into the fuel bowl so that it would bond with the water and burn it out?

Since I put that stuff in my tank, I have noted a marked improvement in the drivability of my car. I have another bottle that i am going to use also when I fill up again. Man!!! It is so nice to get this car running smoother. I still have to clean my radiator out again to get some more rust out of the system, but that isn't bad and it's a damn sight cheaper than a car payment!

Thanks for all the help so far, I really mean that to everybody!!!! BTW, does anybody know of a diagram for a cold air intake for these cars? I am a machinist/Tool and Die Maker by trade and would like to try and build my own from Aluminum Tubing. If you know of one, please post the link to it in your reply.

James

RamThis

11-04-2005, 02:43 PM

I would still pull the carb airhat off just to be sure. Ive found that if you have water, chances are you also got some trash with it that for some ungodly reason gets past the filters. Water will also pit out an aluminum carb, so the more water you get out, the better. Ive seen water pit out a carb through .100" thick aluminum until it looked like swiss cheese. Then its either time for some JB Weld, or a new carb LOL.

I would also like to know if there is a CAI for these cars. Sure would be a sight easier to work around that that stupid big-ass flat airfilter housing thats on it now.....:banghead:

lackej1971

11-04-2005, 11:17 PM

MAN!!!! Today I was driving to work and my car was running fine. Then, for no reason, it just quit on me! Well, it gets worse! The starter would not even turn over. NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH!!!! It did this on Halloween and let me tell you, it's not a treat taking the starter off of these cars, IT SUCKS!

So I think my starter finally bit the dust after warning me it was about to go out on me. Damn! I had a new starter but I thought "since it turned over with it taken off the car, then it's OK". WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

So I am off to spend 80 bucks for a new starter 2morrow after the 50 it cost me to get it towed today. I hope that this fixes it. Let me ask you guys something: Is there some sort of clutch sensor or relay that can cause this to happen? It would be ALOT cheaper if that were the case.

Thanks, James:lock:

VTEC_Inside

11-04-2005, 11:53 PM

The first thing I would do is check the choke plate position. The likelyhood is that its not opening.

I had all kinds of idle problems that were choke related. They went away when I changed the choke puller.

lackej1971

11-05-2005, 06:26 AM

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I have checked the choke plate and it seems to be fine. The fact is that the car seems to be RUNNING pretty good, it's just getting it started now that is a pain. The starter went out for good yesterday and now I have to take it off and get another one. I am just glad that I did this once before so I know pretty much what I need to do this time.

These older Hondas are so cramped when it comes to room to work, that you simply cannot get your hands in them. I don't think I could do this as a job because I would just freak out after a little while. Anyway, I am really hoping that the starter is the problem and that a new one will fix it.

I guess I am scared that with my luck the way it is, I will have a bad ignition switch or some mysterious sensor gone bad!

Thanks, James:pc:

lackej1971

11-05-2005, 04:50 PM

:) Well, I removed my old starter today and went to get another one. While there, they went ahead and checked the old one and it was smoking when it would run. I bought a new one!!!! Well, it went on pretty easily and I said a quick prayer and just hit the ignition to see if it would start. It turned over and jumped to life.

I almost started breakdancing in my driveway!!! Reassembled everything and drained my antifreez from about 4 days ago so I could REALLY flush the system really good. I removed the bleeder valve from the thermostat housing and replaced it (temporarily) with a piece of clear 3/8 O.D. hose. I then put the hose into the radiator filler cap and turned it on. Once the car warmed up and the thermostat opened up, I could see muck flowing out of the coolant system through the hose. The water was staeming hot and was coming out strong.

I let it run like that until the water ran clear and then I opened the drain on the radiator and drain the water out. Refilled with Coolant and came to a real big conclusion: YOU MUST HAVE GOOD CLEAN ANTIFREEZE IN A HONDA.

My car is running stronger and better than ever before. The tires almost squeal when it takes off and i am not even trying to make them!!!

Thanks to everybody for their advice and I am sure I will have more questions later on.

Thanks Again, James

RamThis

11-05-2005, 06:38 PM

Glad you got your problem sorted out. I think mine runs better now that I got all the rust flushed out of the system as well. At least, it seems to idle better for some reason. I know most everything in these cars are run on vacuum that is linked to so many other systems, that one thing not working just right can throw off a myriad of things. Crazy system, guess thats what you have to expect of a car from an era when they were trying to learn how to make it run clean enough for the C.A.R.B emissions laws, before the days of the Powertrain Control Modules...... :rolleyes:

lackej1971

11-05-2005, 07:41 PM

Yeah, the vaccuum lines on these cars seem to go for miles and they all run off of one another (It Seems). I had a really bad problem with surging in my car some time ago and found it to be caused by a disconnected vacuum line. Another thing that seemed to make mine run better was to clean off the sensor that is mounted into the intake by 2 screws. When you take it out, it looks like a little black probe. I cleaned it with a spray of CRC Electronics Cleaner, and it really seemed to help. I don't know if it REALLY did ANYTHING, but it made me feel better.
What exactly is your car doing and I may be able to help.
James

RamThis

11-05-2005, 10:36 PM

It just seems to idle different rpm's randomly. I attribute some of it to the fact that the car has 175,000 miles on it, and that the throttle shafts are probably worn, and they wont set in the exact same place every time you let off the gas, so sometimes it might idle at 1000 rpm, sometimes it might idle at 800 rpm, etc.

I still have to figure out exactly how to set that "Throttle Controller" thats mounted on the front passenger side of the carb with the throttle cable bracket. Right now its adjust back so it has nothing to do with idle. I have the idle set with the Throttle Stop screw up to about 1200 rpm out of gear with the AC off and no other electrics running. In gear, it will drop to about 800 RPM. Then when the AC kicks on, I have it set to keep the RPM about 800, its almost seamless transition. The PDF version of the shop manual talks about some weird stuff when setting the idle on this car, doesnt really give me a good step by step of what to do from what I can tell. Even mentions some crap about hooking up propane to a certain vacuum line and running a "propane enrichment" procedure to determine idle speed and mixture settings. WTF is that all about???? LMAO!!!! Ive never seen such a Cluster in my life. I'll get it figured out eventually I guess, unless you or someone can give me a better explaination of how to set the idle settings from scratch lol. :)

lackej1971

11-06-2005, 10:05 AM

I am in the same boat you are in. Actually it sounds as though your idle is better than mine! Mine is more erratic than that. I think that as long as it is running dependably and not shutting off, then I would leave it alone.

I have accepted the fact that my idle will never be dead staedy as this car is old and carbed. So many mechanical, electrical and vaccuum operated things working in unison. It really is alot to ask of an older car. If you get this figured out, I would appreciate it if you would let me know what did it.

Thanks, James:)

A20A1

11-06-2005, 11:19 AM

I still have to figure out exactly how to set that "Throttle Controller" thats mounted on the front passenger side of the carb with the throttle cable bracket. Right now its adjust back so it has nothing to do with idle. I have the idle set with the Throttle Stop screw up to about 1200 rpm out of gear with the AC off and no other electrics running. In gear, it will drop to about 800 RPM. Then when the AC kicks on, I have it set to keep the RPM about 800, its almost seamless transition.

Look for my post...
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=44074
I explain my proceedure for idle adjustment, some other members have used it and it helped.

RamThis

11-06-2005, 11:55 AM

Look for my post...
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=44074
I explain my proceedure for idle adjustment, some other members have used it and it helped.

Well hell, My idle is already set according to your post LOL. Ive jacked with it and jacked with it thinking something was wrong because it would idle around 1100-1200 RPM in P or N, and drop down to about 800-900 in gear. I assumed there was a way to get the car to idle down to 800 or so in P or N, and there to be a solenoid similar to the AC boost that steadied the RPM in gear to keep it from dropping from that non loaded idle speed. Guess I had this thing set perfectly and didnt know it. I can rest better now LOL.

Im just used to computer controlled engines that dont do this wild fluctuation between in gear and out of gear rpm's. Guess Im expecting too much out of this car..... :)

A20A1

11-06-2005, 12:05 PM

It's supposed to drop in gear... it's supposed to drop close to the throttle stop setting. The throttle controller if set right, will bring the idle back up some, close to what it was when the car was in park/neutral. So there is a little delay in the idle adjusting itself. But you should be able to get a stable idle... but not one that is constantly at 1200. You don't want it that high in gear anyways.

RamThis

11-06-2005, 01:19 PM

Yeah I know that, I just thought I could idle it down unloaded (out of gear) to about 800-900 rpm, and put it in gear and it have a solenoid that kept the idle up to 800-900 in gear. I didnt know that these cars actually have to idle that high out of gear. Im used to my big v-8 idling at 700 no matter what in my Dodge Trucks, and my Acura idles at about 750 as well, no matter what is on or off. Just the difference in technologies, vacuum controlled VS OBDII PCM controlled....

lackej1971

11-06-2005, 11:15 PM

VTEC_Inside

11-07-2005, 07:05 AM

Well, after reading you guys posts, I think that my idle could definitely be better. My car seems to want to die on me or run like crap until it gets warmed up. Is this something that the procedure you detailed will fix? I'll try it if it will.
Thanks, James:)

That sounds almost exactly the same as the problem I was having... It was the choke puller not functioning properly. As the car warms up the bimetallic spring opens the choke all the way (supposed to anyway), which is why its fine after a couple minutes of warm up.

A20A1

11-07-2005, 10:05 AM

The choke puller might be leaking or the "O-RING" that is between the choke puller body and the carb body is leaking. The o-ring is at the front of the carb next to the screw that holds the choke puller body to the carb.

#18 carries vacuum
#26 connects to a solenoid in the black box, I'm pretty sure it bleeds off vacuum to limit how far the choke puller opens the choke.
It may or may not have an effect on the fast idle unloader, that would depend on if it has acces to it via vacuum line #18.

Anyways those are some things to check
Vacuum leaks from; O-rings, defective solenoids, vacuum lines, and diaphragms.
Coolant flow and coolant level is important for all the sensors that use it.
Thermovalves are part of the fast idle unloader and other cold start functions.
It's important the thermovalves are geting coolant and that they hold vacuum when they are supposed to and bleed vacuum when they are supposed to.

Cant Stop

11-07-2005, 11:19 AM

hey old v-8'sfrom the 60's and 70's are just as tempermental
may not sound cool but runs fine is not a problem.

RamThis

11-07-2005, 08:41 PM

hey old v-8'sfrom the 60's and 70's are just as tempermental
may not sound cool but runs fine is not a problem.

Man do I know that one LOL. Basically im comparing my two Magnum V-8's in my newer Rams in terms of idle. They are both rock steady no matter what load you put on them. Im just used to that basically, never knew a car had to idle over 1k rpm in N and drop to 800 in gear, always just assumed they had a way to stabilize the idle between load and unloaded. This is really the first vacuum controlled engine like this to ever mess with, so Im in new territory.

Sad thing is, not even my 68 Chevy Stepside or my 68 Charger R/T are this difficult to deal with. Fairly straightforward. I think these Hondas were a learning experience for the carbuilder in making a car whos emissions were as low as possible at the time without using a computer to do it. Just a bad era of vehicle design IMHO.

A20A1

11-07-2005, 09:24 PM

Well they did it because they needed to meet the new emissions standards... but it was a part of the transition from carb to all EFI equipt cars. Something like that.

Cant Stop

11-09-2005, 03:08 PM

absolutely right .
i live in a state where emissions are not monitored so i am opting to the straight up no black box just straight up carb technique.
i figure since its not inspected it will be easier to play with and fix with out the noodle box!
by the way a20a1 i dont seem to be subscribed to the thread where i asked about the manual secondary tab , do you know if i need to make this by hand or is it available to buy?

A20A1

11-09-2005, 08:42 PM

it's off the A/C idle boost linkage

Cant Stop

11-10-2005, 09:22 AM

thanks
um will this affect my a/c?that is the one thing i cant live without,however my car has been idling low and rough with a/c on latel anyways.

lackej1971

11-11-2005, 09:45 PM

Ya Know, I really don't seem to see what the deal is with removing emissions equipment from these cars. What is the point? Personally, i depend on my car to get me from A to B dependably, and the last thing I am going to try NOW is mess with removing stuff from the carb. Maybe I'm being a pansy ass, but I don't own a race car and I never will.

So, Why do we remove this stuff? Thats a real question. What is the REAL advantage? My car FINALLY got to where it runs good and I'll be damned if I'm messing with it.

Thanks, James

Cant Stop

11-12-2005, 03:12 PM

well lackej to naswer your question why mess with it?
i decided to strip it out because i had to pull the intake off due to a rotted freeze plug on the intake- i will post pictures tomorrow to show proof.- the rusty water in the radiator had ate it away.
so all that vacuum had to be removed because of the problem and it seemed easier to leave it all off anyways, asa a lot of the hose had vulcanized
and broke off. i have also decided to remove the line going from the oil water seperator off the intake since all that nasty oil vapor has really coated my in takes up badly, after cleaning the junk out it should run better in order to remove the oil/water seperator i bought a edelbrock air breather and slipped some vynl tubing to it and the top of the seperator it just clears the intake.
well i am going to make or add to a different thread all this work and i will keep you posted.

RamThis

11-12-2005, 09:44 PM

I guess I did mine the hard way, I put it all back together like it came apart when I fixed my freeze plug problem. All three plugs were rusted through.

BTW, Rusty water doesnt corrode the freeze plugs, running straight water in there is what usually does it. The freeze plugs are made of steel, while the intake is made of aluminum. The water acts as a conductor, and the two metals mixed with the water and any chemicals in the water work to oxidize the steel freeze plugs and corrode them away. Thats where you get the rust from.

I took the intake off, and my neighbor has a commercial type Heli-arc machine that we just bridged over the freeze plug holes solid, and viola, no more leaks, ever.

Also, just some food for thought, freeze plugs are not for "freezing", or, shall I say, to save your engine should it freeze solid. They are really just holes to dump out the sand from the casting process. All these blocks and intakes and such are lost sand casted, then machined to get all your proper mating surfaces. It just became a mechanic's term to say to unwitting owners that if the car freezes from not having enough anti-freeze, that these plugs are supposed to magically pop out and the water will expand out the hole or some crap like that LOL. Water doesnt work that way. You may come out to find all your freeze plugs laying under the car, but, your block or your heads may be laying in two or three pieces because there are so many small passages for the water to get in, it will most likely break something, and its sure not going to just squeeze out that hole LOL.

lackej1971

11-12-2005, 11:50 PM

That is a very interesting reason for removing all of the stuff that you have removed. Now I am a bit worried, because before I flushed my radiator out TWICE to get most of the rusty water out, it was really BAD looking. When you said that your hoses were rotted, which ones were they? It just makes me wonder if mine has some bad hoses or something because of the crappy coolant that was in it.

Now, since I replaced the starter and did the flush out and replaced it with GOOD A/F, my car has progressivly ran better. Most of the time now, I don't even have to pump the gas to make it start. That is a BIG IMPROVEMENT for me.

Thanks, James