1988-1990 Front Civic Struts Work

[Legend_master]

Let me start by saying that I had two threads merged together to make this thread, so it might get confusing until I have the post removed.

-What is required
1. 1988-1990 Civic Front Tokico Illumina Struts
2. Welded Rings that fit snugly around the strut (I found these at a local Hardware store)
*You dont have to use the welded rings, but you need something that fits around the strut and sets the lower perch in place.
3. factory Accord strut perches and top hats

You must remove the weld that holds the piece of metal that the lower fork rest on (I circled this piece in the picture below). Once you are able to move that piece of metal up and down then you can place welded rings on the shaft of the strut to allow the strut to sit lower in the fork. Just make sure whatever you use in between the fork and the movable piece of metal is strong enough to support the weight of a car.

This is the piece I removed the weld from and moved.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/Struts.jpg

Here are the welded rings
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/rings.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/DSCF0005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/DSCF0004.jpg
Pic 3
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/DSCF0003.jpg

The struts came with a bracket that allowed me to bolt the brake lines to it.

[NXRacer]

i've been saying for a while civic struts bolt in. . . . . .i've been running 98 civic struts in the rear and they're awesome.

[AccordEpicenter]

so nx... 96-00 civic struts work in the rear and 88-91 fronts work? What were the mods if any to get the rears to work?

[Legend_master]

i've been saying for a while civic struts bolt in. . . . . .i've been running 98 civic struts in the rear and they're awesome.


I thought the rears were much shorter, if they are they are only good if you have the suspention dumped, to my knowledge.

[AccordEpicenter]

very interesting guys

[carotman]

Well, if you call let's say tein and ask them to make a kit for our cars that will simply be a front set from an existing car and a rear set from another, they will gladly offer the kit. I mean, why not offer the kit if no research n developpement is required and you only have to supply existing parts as a new kit.

[Legend_master]

Well, if you call let's say tein and ask them to make a kit for our cars that will simply be a front set from an existing car and a rear set from another, they will gladly offer the kit. I mean, why not offer the kit if no research n developpement is required and you only have to supply existing parts as a new kit.


thats true, but we need to make sure the rear will not be to low for most everyday applications.

[NXRacer]

yes the civic struts are shorter which makes it good for lowering your car. If you want a minimal drop, i'm not sure how well the civic struts would work for ya.

as for mods, there are absolutely non. I just bolted them right in.

[Legend_master]

yes the civic struts are shorter which makes it good for lowering your car. If you want a minimal drop, i'm not sure how well the civic struts would work for ya.
as for mods, there are absolutely non. I just bolted them right in.


I think the 4g Accords have the same size rear struts as us. I am not sure, but I will check it out at the JK today.

[Zufer]

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/373000-373999/373049_45_full.jpg

these are how low my struts sit in my car

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/373000-373999/373049_46_full.jpg

and this is how low my car sits overall

[Deadhead]

ok, my question is, is if i go to the j/y and pull some rears off a 96-00 civic and the fronts off an 88-90 civic...


This is the WHOLE strut assembly that i'm talking about.

Will this lower or raise my car? if so, approximately how much of a difference from stock?

[Zufer]

i've never compared stock springs and overall height... but i'm gonna bet on it'll lower the rear quite a bit and raise the front some. i don't know exact measurements. just a guess i'd say an inch on either end

[Deadhead]

that's an intersting combo... lower in back, higher in front....


uh..... is there some other struts that work for the front that would lower it a bit?

[Zufer]

not that i know of

[b8er]

now im asuming if we had these other struts in our cars or went to buy them they should be cheaper then a set of blistenis or whatnot that are made for the 3rd gen because there are more redadly avaliable and more ppl would possibly buy them correct? could somebody make up a 'price list' of sorts with the cost for some re-valved blistenes and the 97 tokico illuminas and so on i think that might help ppl know what is possibly for our cars and what the cost of each possibiliys are, thanks

[Legend_master]

now im asuming if we had these other struts in our cars or went to buy them they should be cheaper then a set of blistenis or whatnot that are made for the 3rd gen because there are more redadly avaliable and more ppl would possibly buy them correct? could somebody make up a 'price list' of sorts with the cost for some re-valved blistenes and the 97 tokico illuminas and so on i think that might help ppl know what is possibly for our cars and what the cost of each possibiliys are, thanks


I dont know the price of the bilsteens, but I am sure they are more expensive then the civic struts plus they are not fully adjustable. I paid $93.00 a piece + shipping for my 1988 civic struts.

[Justin86]

hum and I thought the 88-91 civic shocks were the same as the 92-95???
I bought a set of 92-95 a while back and the front body was 1/4" thicker and I had to use civic lower forks. If the 88-91 will fit in the accord forks then they are the easiest fit for us, cool cool. I might have to buy another set of shocks.

yea the revalved blistens are around $800, where you can get 5-way adjuatable AGX or Koni for under $500

[Legend_master]

hum and I thought the 88-91 civic shocks were the same as the 92-95???
I bought a set of 92-95 a while back and the front body was 1/4" thicker and I had to use civic lower forks. If the 88-91 will fit in the accord forks then they are the easiest fit for us, cool cool. I might have to buy another set of shocks.
yea the revalved blistens are around $800, where you can get 5-way adjuatable AGX or Koni for under $500


Nope the 92-95 are similar to the 96-00. The mods to make this work are very minimal, even if you want to lower the strut a little to make it ride at factory hight is easy.

[Justin86]

well something is differnet cause the 92-95 stock ones I have are thicker and 2" taller then the accords. When I went to the j/y for civic forks they were also 1/4" bigger. The 88-91 were were the same dia as the accord.
Now you tried 88-91 and 96-00 shocks and they are the same dia and about 1/2" or so taller. Then checking parts numbers they are the same for 88-00???

[Legend_master]

well something is differnet cause the 92-95 stock ones I have are thicker and 2" taller then the accords. When I went to the j/y for civic forks they were also 1/4" bigger. The 88-91 were were the same dia as the accord.
Now you tried 88-91 and 96-00 shocks and they are the same dia and about 1/2" or so taller. Then checking parts numbers they are the same for 88-00???


No the 88-91 diameter is the same as the accords and the struts are a little taller then the accords. The 96-00 diameter were much thicker and they were much taller. The 92-00 civic and 94-00 integra struts are all the same and I think the type R version of the civic and integra struts are a little shorter, but the diameter is the same.

[Justin86]

I'm just trying to get this cleared up for the other members that the 92-00 is not that easy of a swap. You mention they were taller but having to deal with the thicker bodies is a hassle, of getting the civic forks then grinding them to fit over the accord lower arm. You made it sound like all yrs were a bolt on process.

[bobafett]

from the limited amount of info i have gathered.

YES: you can use EF (88-91) civic shocks in the front, without modifying much. BUT, in order to lower the car back to the levels that you want, you will have to effectivley compress that civic shock more than normal (first, to make up for the amount of height that it is taller than the accord, and then to account for the lowering that you would want).

the solution to this, as zeph already pointed out, is to modify how low the strut sits in teh fork, by lowering THAT, we are lowering the car, and not compressing the shock. the advantage is that we could dump our cars 3+ inches, and the shock would be compressed in a way that is closer to stock. it wouldnt actually compress 3 inches further. this will allow the strut to function the way is was meant to, and will keep us from blowing the shit out of them.

YES: in the rear you can you EK (96-00) civic shocks, but you are forced to run close to a 3 inch dump... there is no way around it. the advantage again, is that the strut is efficient, in that, even though your car is 3" lower, the shock is happy cause it hasnt been compressed that much extra. so it will perform a lot better.

its simple guys...

NOW, there may be other shocks that work, but this is tried and true... :)

[Legend_master]

from the limited amount of info i have gathered.

YES: you can use EF (88-91) civic shocks in the front, without modifying much. BUT, in order to lower the car back to the levels that you want, you will have to effectivley compress that civic shock more than normal (first, to make up for the amount of height that it is taller than the accord, and then to account for the lowering that you would want).

the solution to this, as zeph already pointed out, is to modify how low the strut sits in teh fork, by lowering THAT, we are lowering the car, and not compressing the shock. the advantage is that we could dump our cars 3+ inches, and the shock would be compressed in a way that is closer to stock. it wouldnt actually compress 3 inches further. this will allow the strut to function the way is was meant to, and will keep us from blowing the shit out of them.

YES: in the rear you can you EK (96-00) civic shocks, but you are forced to run close to a 3 inch dump... there is no way around it. the advantage again, is that the strut is efficient, in that, even though your car is 3" lower, the shock is happy cause it hasnt been compressed that much extra. so it will perform a lot better.

its simple guys...

NOW, there may be other shocks that work, but this is tried and true... :)

this is all correct, but 88-00 civic and integra rear struts will work on our cars. THe same 3" drop is required for all years and and models of the civic and integra rear struts.

[Justin86]

well looks like I need to work on brackets to raise the rear shocks..............

[Busted_Blue]

well looks like I need to work on brackets to raise the rear shocks..............


This is exactly the reason while I failed to use the Tein Coilovers for a EF (89-91) civics. The rear was so low that the lower control arm was hitting the S/T Sway bar i had. Also Tein ones are definitely alot shorter as they are shorten struts so I might have been looking at at least a 3.5inch drop O_O..


I also remember..that our cars have NO ground clearance whatsoever when dumped =\

[Legend_master]

well looks like I need to work on brackets to raise the rear shocks..............


I have been trying top figure out some kind of bracket for it also. It seems simple in concept, but a lot harder in design.:deal:

[Justin86]

design please, I allreay thought it up months ago.

[Legend_master]

design please, I allreay thought it up months ago.


how do you keep it from shifting side to side?

[Justin86]

Now that is my little secret for now. Once I buy a set I will have full details on everything.

[Legend_master]

Now that is my little secret for now. Once I buy a set I will have full details on everything.


awww.... come on :slap: LOL J/P. Good luck and let us know if it works.

[Zufer]

what do you mean it has no ground clearance when dumped... i am dumped and rarely hit on anything!

[NXRacer]

i'm dumped and scrape on everything. Its not as bad as before cause i did raise it up a little.

The civic struts are good for the folks that want to get a decent ride when dumped.

[bobafett]

yeah zeph, caleb is a bit lower than you i think.. havent seen his car for a while, but it was LOW LOW LOW....tucking i think...

[Busted_Blue]

what do you mean it has no ground clearance when dumped... i am dumped and rarely hit on anything!


keep in mind, I live in the hills =P

[NXRacer]

it was LOW LOW LOW....tucking i think...
i was tucking about 1/2" of tire, thats it. Come summer time i think i'll be going back on the ground. :rockon:

[Legend_master]

i was tucking about 1/2" of tire, thats it. Come summer time i think i'll be going back on the ground. :rockon:


1/2" dosent seem like alot of tire to be tucking untill you relize its on a 15" rim. Plus our chassis is much lower then the bumpers of our car.

[Busted_Blue]

1/2" dosent seem like alot of tire to be tucking untill you relize its on a 15" rim. Plus our chassis is much lower then the bumpers of our car.

this is the main reason why the accord scrapes alot.


chassis is much lower than the fender distance from the wheel. Unlike newer honds were the fender gap is alot smaller than the groundclearance.

[Zufer]

wow... tucking 1/2" in is badass... i think i'm gonna drop my car that low at some point just to take pics though...

[NXRacer]

thats why my buddy calls my car a road squeegee :D

[Justin86]

plus the size of the tires make a big differnece with ground/fender clerance, which Caleb has smaller tires, no huge ass 17's or 18's

[Legend_master]

This is where the thread merge starts so it might get a little crazy.

[military mase]

Looking good there......how do you loke the EBC rotors......By the way are the bushings on the bottom on the box for the rear LCA's?? If the bushings say they are for a 90-97 accord Pt# 8-312 they don't fit. I already tried them when i replaced all my bushings and upgraded my suspension parts.

[Legend_master]

Looking good there......how do you loke the EBC rotors......By the way are the bushings on the bottom on the box for the rear LCA's?? If the bushings say they are for a 90-97 accord Pt# 8-312 they don't fit. I already tried them when i replaced all my bushings and upgraded my suspension parts.


I love how well the rotors work, but mixed with the EBC pads they make a quit rubbing noise when I am not on the brakes. Yes they are 8-312 I got them off of NOPI and it listed them as our cars. Thats Shitty that they dont fit, I guess I will have to send them back:uh: .

[Legend_master]

Looking at the honda parts site it list 1986-1987 rear control arm bushings are different then the 1988-1989 I am guessing that is the reason that the rear disk convertion did not work perfectly with my rear control arm.

[military mase]

i havean 87 accord with rear disc conversion i just did. Mine are also prothane too. http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=45980 Look at the 27th post and you'll see there the same except for the color.

[Legend_master]

i havean 87 accord with rear disc conversion i just did. Mine are also prothane too. http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=45980 Look at the 27th post and you'll see there the same except for the color.

Did you ahve them pressed in ther or did you try and install them yourself. I talked to a shop that told me I can install the fronts myself, but the rears will have to be pressed in there. I dont know, but that might be the problem.

[88accordhb]

sweet dude.

[Acid X]

Where'd you get the rotors? I need me a set.

[Legend_master]

Where'd you get the rotors? I need me a set.

http://WWW.TIRERACK.COM

They have good prices and they shipped quickly.

[SataniC]

emmm looks very good...but may i ask what is it that you need to modify to fit them suspensions mate?cos if im not mistaken...front suspension taken from 1988-1991 civics are a straight fit onto our 3g....only the rear is different...height is also good without having to change much...thats wat i use last time....of cos until i got my hands on another ghetto project....ive managed to plonk in a set of Apexi World Sport Hi/Lo from a civic EG into the accord...it was hell....i got them for free...so tot of doing another round of RnD'ing on it...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/patayalama/sus1.jpg
First off...to fit the front EG suspension..you'll need to get the front EG 'dunno what they call em forks'....at rough comparison...they looked the same...until i tried fitting them on...it's slightly smaller compared to ours :uh: ...so i have to grind them off a bit to make space....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/patayalama/sus3.jpg
difference between the Apexi World Sport and Bilstein meant for the 1988/91 civic...the bilstein was changed to a shorter spring to lower my ride height summore...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/patayalama/sus5.jpg
grinded to specification....yes it looked a bit unsafe isnt it....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/patayalama/sus2.jpg
the front is ok...the back you'll need to modify the bracket...EG uses the slot in while ours uses the fork design...pics was after the transplant...notice that only EG/Integra uses the slot in design...Civic EK is a direct fit to 3G's...tried them...now dont be scared...almost all absorbers are welded too...ive made sure they did a good job on it...dun want to risk my life and the cars....hehe

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/patayalama/sus6.jpg
the back was excellent...the Apexi gave a short stroke impression...now my car tend to move on tripod mode ehhehehe....good damping...i can now carry passengers at the back without scraping till kingdom comes....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/patayalama/sus4.jpg
but look at the front...the absorbers was set at the lowest mark possible...and it still gives this big of a gap....at the end...i have to regrind the inner cup where the bottom absorbers tucked in to make them sit lower...i think most 3g modifiers know the drill rite....but if you are able to get a short stroke suspension instead...i think you wont run into this sort of height issues...i really think so myself...perhaps on the next RnD :kekeke:

Total Spent:
Apexi World Sport - FOC
Machining Job - RM478 - USD127

But at the end of the day...i dont feel safe in driving with the modified forks...so i decided to chuck it away and reinstall my bilstein...but keep the rear apexi...it was a lot of works needed to be done...ive sweat half my obese body off....and it didnt really works to my preference....:uh:

To sum up...according to my RnD...the best combination for a cheap bang for buck suspension setup would be 1988 - 1991 Civics for the front and 1995 - 2000 Civics for the rear...you can also fit in civic EK's for the front if it's a short stroke types....at the end of the day....all i got was a :slap: from my tuner....2006 will be the year i get a proper custom coilovers....eheheheh

Hope This Helps....

[SataniC]

woops...double posting...anyway...you guys are very lucky that there's still companies making parts for the 3Gs there...damn....hey im loving the front brake set....im opting for a brake set taken from a BB prelude H22A since there's no brake set for the 3G here...with the kind of driving im doing...i need a lot of braking help...but of cos it'll look much sweeter with a cross drilled disc like that... :kekeke:

[military mase]

Hey Legend Master i had my fronts pressed out but if you do the front yourself your gonna need a chisel to bang it it but the bushings go right in that you have for the front. that's easy. the rears will have to be pressed out and the new ones pressed it. I just got OEM bushings for the rear scince the prothane ones where to big.

[Legend_master]

woops...double posting...anyway...you guys are very lucky that there's still companies making parts for the 3Gs there...damn....hey im loving the front brake set....im opting for a brake set taken from a BB prelude H22A since there's no brake set for the 3G here...with the kind of driving im doing...i need a lot of braking help...but of cos it'll look much sweeter with a cross drilled disc like that... :kekeke:


Well seems like you have done the same mods I did the first time around, except I did not put the rear struts on. I tried the front struts for an ek civic, but I modified the accord pitch fork instead of using the civic one. I just made the hole bigger so that the struts would slide in it. That project was scrapped due to the struts being way to tall for our cars. As for the ef struts, I moved the piece up that rest against the pirch so that the struts dident give me such big wheel gap and the would not wear out as fast do to lack of suspention travel. As for the rears I would be afraid to weld them, because they are filled with nitrogenand it is very explosive. I think I will be picking up a set of rear civic struts for and EF and EK and do some comparison between the two and our factory struts. It has to be possible to get the rear mod done without having to dump the car.

and military mase my local suspention guy told me to take a blow torch and melt the old ones out then just slip the new ones in for the front. I called prothane and Nopi, they both told me that this kit will work with my car. So someone somewhere must have gotten this to work :dunno: . I will kepp you updated on what I get done, but thanks for all the help.

[military mase]

For the ones in the front make sure you take out the metal sleeve. As far as the rears the bushings even come apart and i tried it taking the outer metal sleeve and it still didn't work. Prothane swore up and down about the bushings. I gave them the mesurement for the bushings and then gave them a spec for the OEM bushing. The length is fine it's the circumfrence that's off.

[SQ is the SQUAD]

i just read this entire thread and i am still lost.

ok, lets say i want to dump my coup 3 inches all the way around. i pretty much know ill use 96-00 civic struts in the rear. is that a 3 inch drop with factory height springs?

now for the front we talked about using 88-91 civic struts. what combo will give me the 3" drop in the front with the stock like ride. i dont care if i have to modify the forlks

[Legend_master]

i just read this entire thread and i am still lost.

ok, lets say i want to dump my coup 3 inches all the way around. i pretty much know ill use 96-00 civic struts in the rear. is that a 3 inch drop with factory height springs?

now for the front we talked about using 88-91 civic struts. what combo will give me the 3" drop in the front with the stock like ride. i dont care if i have to modify the forlks


A 3"drop will never give you a stock ride feeling, because it will need to be stiff since our chassis are lower then our bumpers. Second The piece on the strut that rest against the perch needs to be modified so that it sits higher up on the struts. If you look at my pictures you can see that the strut sits lower in the perch. The lower you sit it the lower the ride height, but to low and the strut will rest on the axles. Since you plan on dropping the car so much you will need to lower the strut as much as possible to allow for as much strut travel as is needed for the strut not to wear out quickly. This all comes down to the struts being taller then our stock accord struts. let me know if you need anymore help.

[Justin86]

well if you plan to go turbo, performance mods, then a 3" drop is a waste of money, purely show. To get the car to handle good will involve completely custom suspension.

[Legend_master]

i just read this entire thread and i am still lost.

ok, lets say i want to dump my coup 3 inches all the way around. i pretty much know ill use 96-00 civic struts in the rear. is that a 3 inch drop with factory height springs?

now for the front we talked about using 88-91 civic struts. what combo will give me the 3" drop in the front with the stock like ride. i dont care if i have to modify the forlks


Ok I just relized this was my old thread refer to this thread
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48470

[SQ is the SQUAD]

i want to get the koni agx adjustable shocks. so if i get either 91 civic shocks or 92 civic shock for the forlks and use my matrix 2.5/2.25springs,will ihave bottom out issue? iwant to get pretty low like i am now, prob a tad bit higher since ill haveeither 16 or 17 inch rims. i know this is getting confusing.

rims: 16 or 17 rota slipstrem/spoon/ebay nippon
front shocks: 91 civic agx or 92 civic agx with forlks
rear struts:96 civc agx

i guess what i amasking is what strut combo with my 2.5/2.25 springs will get me close to this

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1654/droped17ix.jpg

[Legend_master]

i want to get the koni agx adjustable shocks. so if i get either 91 civic shocks or 92 civic shock for the forlks and use my matrix 2.5/2.25springs,will ihave bottom out issue? iwant to get pretty low like i am now, prob a tad bit higher since ill haveeither 16 or 17 inch rims. i know this is getting confusing.

rims: 16 or 17 rota slipstrem/spoon/ebay nippon
front shocks: 91 civic agx or 92 civic agx with forlks
rear struts:96 civc agx

i guess what i amasking is what strut combo with my 2.5/2.25 springs will get me close to this

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1654/droped17ix.jpg


No dude you have to get 88-90 struts like the title says. They are shorter and they fit into the accord fork. You will need to lower the strut down until it almost hits the axle, if you want to drop your car that low. I don't think the strut will bottom out, I just think it is going to wear out faster with that much of a drop.

EDIT: from what I can tell the 96 civic struts will slam the car, so those should be good. Personally I would not go with the AGX struts, but that is just my opinion.

[SQ is the SQUAD]

so what strutsare good for a slammed car?

[Legend_master]

so what strutsare good for a slammed car?


tokico illuminas, Koni, or I have hear lowboys are the shit for slammed cars.

[Lockleaf]

alright, to see if I'm following okay here's some hypothetical situations.

'88 strut + stock spring = higher than accord stock height

'88 strut + 1.5" lowered spring = somewhere near stock accord height

'88 strut + 3" lowered spring = about 1.5" drop in appearence, but funky ride

'88 strut - modified to sit low + 2" lowered spring = about 1.5" drop in appearence and decent ride

this all refers to front ends only. now, could someone please tell me if I am correct or else could they correct me where I failed? thanks.

[Legend_master]

alright, to see if I'm following okay here's some hypothetical situations.
'88 strut + stock spring = higher than accord stock height
'88 strut + 1.5" lowered spring = somewhere near stock accord height
'88 strut + 3" lowered spring = about 1.5" drop in appearence, but funky ride
'88 strut - modified to sit low + 2" lowered spring = about 1.5" drop in appearence and decent ride
this all refers to front ends only. now, could someone please tell me if I am correct or else could they correct me where I failed? thanks.


This is all good except for
'88 strut + 3" lowered spring = about 1.5" drop in appearence, but funky ride the car dosent ride funky, it just wears the strut out quickly

[sporkHSP]

has anyone looked into 86-89 teg and 90-93 teg struts, tokico lists theirs as different part numbers from the civic ones :dunno: just curious

[Legend_master]

has anyone looked into 86-89 teg and 90-93 teg struts, tokico lists theirs as different part numbers from the civic ones :dunno: just curious


they don't really make any good struts for the 86-89 integras and the 90-93 are to thick in diameter just like the civics. I looked into both of those, but I dont know if the 86-89 fit our cars or not.

[87accordHB]

humm, even if they did, you think it would lower our 3geez i ask this because i got an 89 teg sitting at my house, i will look and see the difference and if they would bolt up. so has anyone come up with a combo of stock struts/springs that would bolt up to our car with no or little mods and actually lower it ?

[Zufer]

which are shorter in the front ef(88-91) or ek(96-00)?

[MoonScryer]

which are shorter in the front ef(88-91) or ek(96-00)?

EF.

[Legend_master]

EF.


The left strut in this pic is the EF the right is EK, there is not that much difference in height. The real difference is the diameter and that is why the EF bolts right in, but the EK doesnt

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/6724eea0.jpg

[Zufer]

ok thanks... i actually don't care about the diameter thing because i wanna make coilovers work and if i do that i can use a lathe and make the mount whatever diameter i need. And yes i have already read about busted blue and teins... and i have a solution for the back too. I let you know how it turns out once i get some money to purchase them.

[Legend_master]

ok thanks... i actually don't care about the diameter thing because i wanna make coilovers work and if i do that i can use a lathe and make the mount whatever diameter i need. And yes i have already read about busted blue and teins... and i have a solution for the back too. I let you know how it turns out once i get some money to purchase them.


Why not just use the EF struts so you dont have to bore out the inside of the fork and make it weaker.

[bobafett]

we should take a look around H-T and get people to post pics of their coilovers. you know a bunch of those guys have a similar setup to what we want to run. if we can get one of them to snap photos of the adjustabililty, we should be able to determine whether or not they will work. :) SOMEONE has to have civic coilovers locally as well. :D

honestly i think it will be a bolt in if we get the coilovers with adjustable lower mounts and build our easy little fix for the rear.

we are trying to use full bodied coilovers with adjustable lower pieces, so that we can thread the bottom of the coilover UP. by doing this we should be able to avoid welding the collar of the strut, and avoid it hitting the axle. :) but we are scared to drop $1000 on coilovers nice enough to do this, considering they may not work at all.

do stock EF tophats bolt in? or will we need to make our own new top mounts?

[Legend_master]

we should take a look around H-T and get people to post pics of their coilovers. you know a bunch of those guys have a similar setup to what we want to run. if we can get one of them to snap photos of the adjustabililty, we should be able to determine whether or not they will work. :) SOMEONE has to have civic coilovers locally as well. :D
honestly i think it will be a bolt in if we get the coilovers with adjustable lower mounts and build our easy little fix for the rear.


the front will be no problem, because they have adjustable lower perch and would allow for the difference in size between the civic and accord. As for the rear, someone had a good idea to make an extension onto the rod of the strut to allow for the strut being shorter. The only problem is that the part used to adjust the stiffness is located on the top of the rod.

[Legend_master]

do stock EF tophats bolt in? or will we need to make our own new top mounts?

I think the EF top mount is a two bolt and not a three bolt like ours.

[bobafett]

if we built a 1" (or whatever size you want to increase the height by) aluminum spacer that mounts to the rear tophat, and then we installed new studs so it was still able to poke through the holes in the accord body. the adjustability knobs usually stick up quite a bit, so if it were 1" lower it would probobaly still be adjustable, if not, it wouldn't be tough to make something that extends that knob. or use needle nose vise grips or something. :)

another possibility is that since the rears will have the adjustable lower mount as well, we may be able to spin them down to make the shock taller. :) this might be far too easy....

i think its time to give it a shot pretty soon!

[Legend_master]

if we built a 1" (or whatever size you want to increase the height by) aluminum spacer that mounts to the rear tophat, and then we installed new studs so it was still able to poke through the holes in the accord body. the adjustability knobs usually stick up quite a bit, so if it were 1" lower it would probobaly still be adjustable, if not, it wouldn't be tough to make something that extends that knob. or use needle nose vise grips or something. :)

another possibility is that since the rears will have the adjustable lower mount as well, we may be able to spin them down to make the shock taller. :) this might be far too easy....

i think its time to give it a shot pretty soon!


On the illuminas the piece that adjust is very small and removable. The rears should not have to be adjusted that much anyway. As for the rear adjusteable purch, it adjust from stock down so that would not help in our application. The spacer would need to be long, because the civic strut is dramatically shorter then the accord. All this is very possible, but some time and effort will need to be put into it.

[bobafett]

ok, i didnt realize the shocks effective length could only be shortened. also im not trying to acheive oem overall height. i just want to make sure that the minimum drop is more like 1.5" instead of 3.5" so it will just be a 1-2" spacer... :)

[Legend_master]

ok, i didnt realize the shocks effective length could only be shortened. also im not trying to acheive oem overall height. i just want to make sure that the minimum drop is more like 1.5" instead of 3.5" so it will just be a 1-2" spacer... :)


I am thinking about cutting the rod off some old struts and starting from there.

[SQ is the SQUAD]

I am thinking about cutting the rod off some old struts and starting from there.


damit, i just threw away like 5 shocks

[Legend_master]

damit, i just threw away like 5 shocks


I have a whole tote full of them, LOL

[Zufer]

why would you want to change the length of the strut rod... basically what chris and i came up with was a "wheel spacer" style spacer on the top hats so that the over length is closer to what we need. This won't give us more travel but we will be running stiff enough springs that there won't be much travel anyways.

[Legend_master]

why would you want to change the length of the strut rod... basically what chris and i came up with was a "wheel spacer" style spacer on the top hats so that the over length is closer to what we need. This won't give us more travel but we will be running stiff enough springs that there won't be much travel anyways.


I hadent thought of that yet, but it might not allow for enough hieght.

[Bones]

Just to make sure I got this part so far ...

For the front of an '89 Accord
Koni Sport (yellow, adjustable) strut for an '88 Civic mounted really low + Sprint 2.25" drop spring = approx 1.75" drop with adjustable ride quality?

Will the shaved top pinch fork mod give it another 1/4"?

If this would work for the front, I may have to piece together springs/struts from different years and manufacturers but it seems worth it to get lower without sacrificing ride or safety.

Revalved Bilsteins just seem too pricey for a non-adjustable shock.

Even buying 2 sets of springs from 2 different companies to get the rates ya need for front and rear seems cheaper than a set of the custom bilsteins.

[Zufer]

ok the thing that limits how far you can shorten the effective length of the struts i the left front axle... mine is too low and touches on hard right had turn... this is a new discovery to me which is why i am thinking full coilovers

[bobafett]

oh but we found out that axles are harder than struts!
there is a really really nice groove out of the bottom of his strut!

[Zufer]

oh and with my strut hitting my effective length is still longer than the stock accord shocks... not by much but about an 1/8"to a 1/4"

[Bones]

So it would work then? Cooooollll !!

Now to figure out a realistic solution for the back end.

[Zufer]

ek struts in the rear are awesome.... you just have to run slammed

[Bones]

That's the problem ... I dont wanna have to slam the back end.

I'd like to have just about 1/4" LESS drop in the rear than whatever I manage to get done for the front.


edit: I'd like to have a final result of approx;

2" drop in the front with 1.75" or 2" in the rear.

From what I have read, EK struts would drop the rear approx 3 or more inches. That would look pretty silly I think with a 2" drop in the front and 3 or more in the rear.

[Zufer]

i would check out integra struts or other accord struts.... i don't really know about not slamming i never really had that cross my mind. Oops!

[Bones]

Anyone know of an easily available strut (adjustable prefferably) from any make / model of car that will fit the 3g rear, that will accomodate 1.5" to 2" drop springs?

EK struts drop the rear toooo far from what I've read in other parts of this forum.

2" front drop with a 3+" drop in the rear would look a bit silly I think. Probably handle a bit oddly too I bet!


I'd like to drop about 2" or less all the way around for looks and handling improvements, but I dont want an unsafe car (got kids) and I'd MUCH preffer to stay away from having a bouncy ride from springs too strong for my shocks.

Revalved Bilsteins seem a bit too pricy (got kids) for my budget and they aint adjustable.

[Legend_master]

Anyone know of an easily available strut (adjustable prefferably) from any make / model of car that will fit the 3g rear, that will accomodate 1.5" to 2" drop springs?
EK struts drop the rear toooo far from what I've read in other parts of this forum.
2" front drop with a 3+" drop in the rear would look a bit silly I think. Probably handle a bit oddly to I bet!


Nope, we are still trying to make an extension to allow the EF struts to work.

[Bones]

RATS!

Ah well, I'll be keeping eyes peeled for a workable solution for the rear end.

I think the info about the '88 Civic struts as a viable alternative for the front should be added to the "Dampers (a.k.a. shocks)" sticky at the top of the forum though.

The only damper options listed in that sticky are the no longer available Koni Specials, Custom Bilstein HDs, Tokico's and KYBs.

[L3G10N]

well i know it's an old post.
But just to be clear!

Civic 88-91 Front strut
and
Civic 96-00 rear strut right?

Front will need the mods i saw and rear will fit right there.

right?

tnx

[Legend_master]

well i know it's an old post.
But just to be clear!
Civic 88-91 Front strut
and
Civic 96-00 rear strut right?
Front will need the mods i saw and rear will fit right there.
right?
tnx

For the rear to work properly, you need to slam the car. I dont know how low you plan on going, but I am in the development of making the rears work well for our application. I am thinking about using a few top hats and removing the bolts from two sets to allow me to stack them on top of each other (I might have to extend the bolts). As for the front they will bolt on without any mods, but it will raise the car about an inch and 1/2 and wear the strut out quickly. If you mod it as I did, the struts work great. Either way you have the years correct for the struts.

[L3G10N]

i am running right now blue tokico with neuspeed sport 1.5"

my plan is to get my car just as they were before with this drop. My car was custom modified to ride this height. I don't have anything about being lower than this but i don't want to destroy all this custom jobs and the shock itself.

what you did in the front was to lower the bottom plate or rise it? and to be at the same height as the neuspeed/tokico setup, i'll need to replace my neuspeed by some coil-over, right?

btw, tnx a lot taking this time to answer me!

[Legend_master]

i am running right now blue tokico with neuspeed sport 1.5"
my plan is to get my car just as they were before with this drop. My car was custom modified to ride this height. I don't have anything about being lower than this but i don't want to destroy all this custom jobs and the shock itself.
what you did in the front was to lower the bottom plate or rise it? and to be at the same height as the neuspeed/tokico setup, i'll need to replace my neuspeed by some coil-over, right?
btw, tnx a lot taking this time to answer me!


Here is a picture to help you with the fronts. These struts are for a 99 civic, but the concept is exactly the same. This was my first suspention attempt, and the struts ended up being to thick. That is why I went with the 89, because the slide into the accord strut with no modification.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/bad7bf25.jpg

Edit: with all the work you ahve put into your ride, I would definilty get coilovers.

[L3G10N]

tnx a lot. i definitly cannot ask better instruction for the front. and doing this mod will raise the car of around 1.5" ?? damn! they are real long!

So, i'll need to do this first and then, put some coil-over to sucessfully get the right height. This is still ok?

and for the rear, what need to be corrected?

tnx again and again!

[Legend_master]

tnx a lot. i definitly cannot ask better instruction for the front. and doing this mod will raise the car of around 1.5" ?? damn! they are real long!
So, i'll need to do this first and then, put some coil-over to sucessfully get the right height. This is still ok?
and for the rear, what need to be corrected?
tnx again and again!


Actually you misunderstood, if you just put these struts on you car without modding them, you will raise the car. If you do this mod the struts as I did you can set it at stock strut length or even lower. Just remeber that the lower you set the strut in the pirch the closer it gets to the axle.

[Zufer]

i actually just had to lengthen mine cause the drive side one was hitting the axle and mine were at the same height as the stock ones

[L3G10N]

ok well it's overclear now about the front!

now i just need to clear the rear parts lol. So you were saying that for the rear, the 96-00 will fit bolt one if i want to slam the car. What do you mean by this part?

[Zufer]

if you don't wanna run really low the EK rears are a no go. You have to run with less than an inch of fender gap... looks great but is really really low

[Legend_master]

tnx a lot. i definitly cannot ask better instruction for the front. and doing this mod will raise the car of around 1.5" ?? damn! they are real long!
So, i'll need to do this first and then, put some coil-over to sucessfully get the right height. This is still ok?
and for the rear, what need to be corrected?
tnx again and again!


As for the rear, the civic struts are much shorter and even with coil over set at max height the car will be dumped (or lowered allot, probably equivalent of a 3-4 inch drop) in the rear. I have not done anything with the rear yet, because I am in the process of modding the entire front suspension right now (check this thread (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53217)). What I plan to do for the rear is placing 3 stock accord top hats on top of each other to extend the rear suspension a little. I have not done the rear civic struts yet, but I think that you might have to use civic coil overs to make this work. I believe NXracer has done the rear civic struts and could tell us for sure if you have to have civic springs.

[L3G10N]

This is how low i was on the stock 13".
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/396000-396999/396433_45_full.jpg

As for now, here's how it look with NOTHING in the car.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/396000-396999/396433_179_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/396000-396999/396433_186_full.jpg

I ask for the rear wide body to be able to get the 18"x7.5" into the fender. So, give me yours impression about putting the 96-00 onto this car.....

[Legend_master]

This is how low i was on the stock 13".
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/396000-396999/396433_45_full.jpg
As for now, here's how it look with NOTHING in the car.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/396000-396999/396433_179_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/396000-396999/396433_186_full.jpg
I ask for the rear wide body to be able to get the 18"x7.5" into the fender. So, give me yours impression about putting the 96-00 onto this car.....

I would not do it untill we figure out a succesfull way to raise them up a little. The ground will be eating that bodykit up if you roll with your car as low as the 96-00 civic struts will lower it.

[L3G10N]

well ok, i'll trust you.

Anyway our big problem still the front and not the rear.

Tnx a lot for your time buddy! It's REALLY appreciated!

[Legend_master]

well ok, i'll trust you.
Anyway our big problem still the front and not the rear.
Tnx a lot for your time buddy! It's REALLY appreciated!


No problem, I cant wait to see that car finished. It is going to look magnificent. With the front I would lower the strut as far as safely possible and use the coil overs to adjust the height. This will extend the life of the strut a lot longer. If I cant figure out anything for the rear, I might just get re valved bilsteins (but I dont want to pay all that money). Good luck and let me know if you need anymore help.

[L3G10N]

but exactly, what's the real trouble with the rear? the shock are too short and need to be longer? i feel the same for beilstein

[Legend_master]

but exactly, what's the real trouble with the rear? the shock are too short and need to be longer? i feel the same for beilstein

The bilsteins for our cars are the perfect height (jsut not stiff enough), they would require no modding to make them fit. The civic struts just are not good unless you want to slam your car or you mod them. You will hit the ground everytime the car goes over a bump with that kit.

[L3G10N]

yeah i already knew about both info, beilstein a long time ago and civic shock, you just told me.

But my question was, what is wrong about the rear civic shock? Are they too short? You were talking about extending the head of the shock...

[Legend_master]

yeah i already knew about both info, beilstein a long time ago and civic shock, you just told me.
But my question was, what is wrong about the rear civic shock? Are they too short? You were talking about extending the head of the shock...


Well the best way to explain is with a picture, LOL. Get three top hats (The red thing in my picture) and place two more on top of it. I would have to remove the bolts of the two that I place on there and I might have to get longer bolts for the one that bolts to the car. It is going to take some R&D, but I will make it work.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/b7354621.jpg

[Zufer]

ya the shock is short... but if you are gonna run that low i honestly think you will be good with the civic shocks http://3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48923
you can see there how low i am and they are perfect for me

[L3G10N]

well i'll try to help too. I've asked on the Quebec Civic Club if some have shock to give. Next i'll go to the junkyard and get some hat and try it too.

btw, this is the sickess draw i've ever saw!!! lololol

[Zufer]

ya the shock is short... but if you are gonna run that low i honestly think you will be good with the civic shocks http://3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48923
you can see there how low i am and they are perfect for me

[Legend_master]

ya the shock is short... but if you are gonna run that low i honestly think you will be good with the civic shocks http://3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48923
you can see there how low i am and they are perfect for me

So what springs are you running with that setup, Ground Control if I remember right. What car are they for civic or accord, and I thought they dropped the car much more then that.


well i'll try to help too. I've asked on the Quebec Civic Club if some have shock to give. Next i'll go to the junkyard and get some hat and try it too.

btw, this is the sickess draw i've ever saw!!! lololol

Thanks that will help alot, and make sure to get the top hat for an accord and not a civic. I drew the picture so well I thought it was real :rockon: .

[Zufer]

i am running egay knock off ground controls with 8" spring i think they were for an accord and i could maybe go an inch higher if i wanted... and as low as i wanted.

[Legend_master]

i am running egay knock off ground controls with 8" spring i think they were for an accord and i could maybe go an inch higher if i wanted... and as low as i wanted.


if you are running 96-00 civic struts and what you say is true, I dont see there being any problem with running those struts. That is a decent height and you have room to raise them. I think I will buy a set of illuminas when I do my rear suspension.

[Zufer]

when i jack the rear of my car up the wheels only droop to maybe a 3 inch fender gap... but ya i think tehy are great... but you definitely can't run near stock height

and on a side note i am hoping to work out a set of full body coilovers... i have exchanged a couple emails with a company and it is looking like it could work... not for sure yet though.

[L3G10N]

Zufer: damn this height is almost perfect. a bit too much gap :p but hey, if it how it will look, i buy it! Tell me exactly what you are running please. Your setup is with the coil-over but without any dropping on it?

legend_master, yeah sure, i'll get the civic one! lol. I knew you were talking about the Accord one ;)

[Zufer]

i just have a generic coil over on the ek strut... and the acord top hat... all bolts in. and you cna lower it more... i just haven't

[bobafett]

the solution that i am considering if/when i get coilovers from a civic is to build a spacer basically. you wouldnt mod the shock at all, but you could effectively modify the upper mount point, by stacking tophats downward or something along those lines.

they make a part like this for lowered miatas to retain shock travel, we need to build the same thing, only like 2" tall. :)

http://flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=4537&parentid=0&stocknumber=13-57100%20%2010MM

EDIT: lol this thread has been posted on a lot since i opened it, legend master already put in pics of the tophat stacking plan. hehe

[Legend_master]

the solution that i am considering if/when i get coilovers from a civic is to build a spacer basically. you wouldnt mod the shock at all, but you could effectively modify the upper mount point, by stacking tophats downward or something along those lines.

they make a part like this for lowered miatas to retain shock travel, we need to build the same thing, only like 2" tall. :)

http://flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=4537&parentid=0&stocknumber=13-57100%20%2010MM


Yes, that is exactly what I have been talking about.

[L3G10N]

i just have a generic coil over on the ek strut... and the acord top hat... all bolts in. and you cna lower it more... i just haven't

so you just took the generic 90-97 Accord ground-control coil over that we can easily see on ebay. right?

[ICEMAN707]

Here's a helpful thread for you guys: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/469485

[L3G10N]

wow this is insane! Nice find dude! i'll try this for sure!

[Legend_master]

Here's a helpful thread for you guys: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/469485


That would work for the front, and I think justin did that already. We need to acutally make the shock top hat thicker. That makes the top hat deeper, and would actually make the rear work even less.

[L3G10N]

yeah legend_master, but if you do something similar but... removing center of each hat and mold each hat together and keeping only the center of the top one. But a long bolt in all this to keep everything tight and i think we have something there. You don't think?

Can look Ghetto but if it's done with precision, it can look professional

[L3G10N]

just think twice and forget this last post... don't work

[L3G10N]

the point is that the rod of the shock won't be longer, so we need a hat who will bolt the rod and will be recover with a kind of adapter after. right?

[Legend_master]

the point is that the rod of the shock won't be longer, so we need a hat who will bolt the rod and will be recover with a kind of adapter after. right?


If you did the exact opposite of what he did. Like extend that piece under the top hat instead of over that would work. You could still maintain the adjustable feature of the struts also. Let me draw up a pic real quick.

[Legend_master]

here you go

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/19a3a7c9.jpg

[ICEMAN707]

if this civic rear struts are too short, using the longer 4gee accord rear struts along with that hondatech.com trick should work. i believe they make aftermarket performance struts for 4gee accord cus i believe they are the same as 5g, and 6g accords also? :dunno:

[Legend_master]

if this civic rear struts are too short, using the longer 4gee accord rear struts along with that hondatech.com trick should work. i believe they make aftermarket performance struts for 4gee accord cus i believe they are the same as 5g, and 6g accords also? :dunno:


I have not researched the 4G or 5G struts, but if they were longer that could be a possibility. I wonder if they mount the same as our struts do. I know that the springs are the same diameter as the 94-00 integras.

[ICEMAN707]

I have not researched the 4G or 5G struts, but if they were longer that could be a possibility. I wonder if they mount the same as our struts do. I know that the springs are the same diameter as the 94-00 integras.

yeah they mount the same at the bottom...and i believe 90-93 tegs are the same way too (94-01 tegs are the same as 92-95 civic's). and they make some nice suspension setups for 90-93 tegs like full bodied coilovers. just swap out the hats for the 3gee hats. the problem is the strut length. but modifying the 3gee hats like in that HTech how-to should solve the problem. just measure the gap between the top of the spring and the bottom-most thread on the strut rod with the strut fully extended.

also, if you plan on doing that trick for the front, you have to take hood clearance into consideration unless you plan on cutting out the hood and making custom fake hoodscoops over those areas. some small cowl scoops on each side would look good and should give the shocks enough clearance.

[newaccorddriver]

out of curiosity, if i wanted to just purely lift up my 3g, can i just use the 88-90 and the 97-00 civic struts on the front/rear without modifying any of them? the road i take to work causes my BMW to bottom out from time to time, and my 3g has softer suspension which will cause it to bottom out constantly.

if i use those in the front/rear, would the shocks/struts have reduced life?

[L3G10N]

96-00 rear strut won't raise the car. it will drop the car.

[newaccorddriver]

96-00 rear strut won't raise the car. it will drop the car.


i thought you had to slam the car to just even it out and lower it?

[Legend_master]

i thought you had to slam the car to just even it out and lower it?


no thats the front 88-91 civic struts, and you done have to slam it either. Just read the thread and it explains all.

[Hash_man_Se_i]

One thing I have not heard discussed much in this thread, is I don't quite remember, but I thought when I worked at partsource and was comparing shocks, that the 4th gen accords were similar in length but thicker body. Now, if this was true, whats the possibility of changing out the front LCA's.

I could very well be going out on a limb with this, but I'm gonna look into something like this in the coming week.

[Legend_master]

One thing I have not heard discussed much in this thread, is I don't quite remember, but I thought when I worked at partsource and was comparing shocks, that the 4th gen accords were similar in length but thicker body. Now, if this was true, whats the possibility of changing out the front LCA's.
I could very well be going out on a limb with this, but I'm gonna look into something like this in the coming week.


Here is a layout of the 4th and 3rd gen

1991 EX 4dr
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13sm40_j09.gif

1988 LX-i 4dr
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13se00_j15.gif

[mkymonkey]

so is that a no? lol

[Legend_master]

so is that a no? lol


Well they look similar, but the sway bar looks like it attaches a little different then the 3g. The only true way to find out is to pull some 4G LCA and compare them.

[Hash_man_Se_i]

Bah, ok... I was kinda tired when I posted that... didnt mean the LCA... I doubt that would work, but if the diamater of the shock is different, then changing out the front fork could work possibly?.... I'm gonna try and find some at pick n pull this week.

[DDRaptor]

Talk about digging an old Thread I don't want to start a new suspension thread.
Does any have any prices and/or part #'s for any shocks compatible with a 10-15% better than OEM

because i can't get any prices on ebay.
and on that thought what would the best way to get the right ride height i'm looking to lower only 1" overall. So as it stands right if i can get a hold of shocks that work but have to be lowered i could use an ebay coilover set because of the ability to lower up to 4" without having to pay that much money.

[knarg]

whats the advantage of using these over the 3g tokicos?

[MessyHonda]

whats the advantage of using these over the 3g tokicos?



adjustable....5 way adjustable

[knarg]

i think i'll stick with my koni/ground controls heh

[MessyHonda]

i think i'll stick with my koni/ground controls heh
:madflip:


show off...lol....konis are adjustable

[knarg]

naa naa naaa naaa na naaaaaaaaaaaaa
i got koooooniiiis and GCsssss
you want em you want em?
well you cant have em
mine mine mine
:slap:

[MessyHonda]

naa naa naaa naaa na naaaaaaaaaaaaa
i got koooooniiiis and GCsssss
you want em you want em?
well you cant have em
mine mine mine
:slap:



lol quiet john. il find a set someday.

[knarg]

i already stole them all, all the 3g koni's left in the US are in my garage :devil:

[MessyHonda]

i already stole them all, all the 3g koni's left in the US are in my garage :devil:


no....i know were a set is so dont worry about it.

[knarg]

i stole dem

[frantik]

no....i know were a set is so dont worry about it.
and i want that set!!!! :rant: or any set of rears :rant: