Engine Turned over but Timing belt didn't.

[Spiderldr]

I was replacing my old water pump, I got the new pump on and I sent it down to the shop because I didn't want to mess with the belts. Anyway, the mechanic says he tried to start it up, and the enging turned over, and he noticed that when he tried to start it the timing belt didn't move. This is bad news. If he did turn the engine over, then the valves are prolly bent and the pistons have giant nicks in them, right? Anyway, you guys are the most experienced people I know about accords, so I ask you... is a car that I could sell for mabey $900 worth doing a whole top end rebuild probably costing $600 and up?

[AZmike]

Replace the timing belt and you'll probably be fine. I have seen a belt fail with absolutely no damage to the engine as have many others. This thread will probably turn into another interference or not argument, but for $30 why not try it?

[FyreDaug]

Apparently there have been cases of belts break/slip and no damage occur, and it hasnt been entirely proven its interferance or not (PLEASE FOR FUCK SAKES DONT START THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN OR IM GONNA BE PISSED!!!), so if its happened before with no damage, and people can prove it has happened, try it, its not that hard anyways.

[FyreDaug]

Or maybe your mechanic isnt entirely honest, and hes trying to get money out of you

Why would he be watching the timing belt when its starting anyways? Thats not usually the FIRST place you look when it doesnt fire.

[POS carb]

yea but a broken belt has a very distinct sound

[88Accord-DX]

Put another timing belt on, line up the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley & camshaft sprocket before installing.
Buy a compression tester (guage). Do a compression test on each cylinder. That will let you know if your valves are bent or not....
Edit- if you want to be on the safe side while moving the crank to correspond with the cam spocket, pull your cam out.

[russiankid]

how would he notice if the timing belt was to be spinning if he is sitting inside the car starting it?!?!?!?!
but like mentioned above, just replace the timing belt, it could be torn near the crankshaft and on the cam gear pulley its fine

[FyreDaug]

I just brought it up as a possibility, thats why I hate mechanics, I take it there to get something fixed and they try to tell me something else is broken... How do I know for sure? I dont have a camera on them.

Whats your milage at on your car? Its possible it needed a belt and it was convenient it went while at the shop, but I always work on my own cars.

[blahblahblah]

yea but a broken belt has a very distinct sound
huh? My car just stalled...had no clue why

[Spiderldr]

I took off the valve cover, and lo and behold! the belt was loose. SO loose that I could take the teeth and move them over a notch. That means that there's almost for sure damage to the valves. I tried to start it:uh: a couple times and once is sounded like it fired right, but then it died. The belt is just fine. Funny thing is there was some fairly new wrench marks on the belt tensioner. I cant prove anything but I think I got flubbed up the pooper by that mechanic. Pisses me off. Any suggestions?

[Spiderldr]

Uhm, guys.

The car wouldn't start, so he probably had a helper try to crank it while he looked at the engine.

Since he changed out the water pump, the timing belt covers were off.

Is it that hard to figure out?

Also, side note. I didn't take the cover off to put on the WP. I just took off the bolts, took the old one out and put a new one in. It was halfway in the case, and I had to fenagle it around a bit to get it out/in, but I didn't have to take off the case. You can see the timing belt through a little square hole in the side.

[nswst8]

I thought that we had the discussion about the 3rd gen engines were NON INTERFEANCE engines. So spinning the engine or a broke timing belt will not affect the valves and pistons.

I think you will be okay, the mechanic was just trying to get more money out of you.

Put a new tensioner on.

[Blkblurr]

Yea it sounds like he's trying to rip you off. If the belt is that loose your timing is completely off. You need to get a new belt and get it back in time.

[Spiderldr]

you guys said something about timing marks? I found the right position on the gear, but what do the marks on the belt look like?

[bobafett]

it wont matter on the belt. just make sure your cam and crank are both at TDC, there isnt anything on the belt itself that will indicate timing.

sounds to me like your motor will be fine. :)

(non interference)

[FyreDaug]

If there are new wrench marks on it, its possible that hes fucking you over (like I said before) and if it got there fine and it wasnt loose, tell him to go fuck himself

[Spiderldr]

Well, I just went out and fiddled with it, and found that the belt wasn't loose.:uh: It's snapped. The belt seems fine and then there's a couple frayed corners on the teeth and then snap! There's a break. It's like something siezed and grabbed it. Wierd. Anyhow, It's obvious that even if I dont have to do a valve job, I still need to put on a new belt. How would I get the timing cover off? Do I have to pull the engine?

[nswst8]

The haynes books explains this procedure very well, you won't need to pull the engine out just support it from undrneath and remove the drivers side engine mount.

[88Accord-DX]

Not trying to argue about it, but the motor is interferance engine. Here is a car someone bought with a timing belt broke. Also, my Chiltons says it is interferance engine.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8007614373&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[Spiderldr]

Not trying to argue about it, but the motor is interferance engine. Here is a car someone bought with a timing belt broke. Also, my Chiltons says it is interferance engine.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8007614373&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1


So is it or isn't it? I guess better put, am I mildly screwed or massivley screwed? Because I think I could put on a new timing belt, but if I have to do a engine pull valve job, I don't think it's worth it.

[88Accord-DX]

So is it or isn't it? I guess better put, am I mildly screwed or massivley screwed? Because I think I could put on a new timing belt, but if I have to do a engine pull valve job, I don't think it's worth it.
Yes, the engine is a interferance motor, most Honda motors are. I've seen about 50/50 chance of the valves hitting the piston. So you might be screwed, then again you might not. It depends on each situation. I don't know what else to say, but put a timing belt on & do a compression check to see if your valves are bent.

[bobafett]

just replace the belt and see where you are at. we cant see whats going on with your engine, so the best thing you can do right now is put on another timing belt. at that point you will know wether or not your motor is screwed up. :)

[FyreDaug]

How is it after 20 years we still havent had solid proof of it being interferancec or not? Just to go facts straight I should pull my head and get prof myself

[88Accord-DX]

How is it after 20 years we still havent had solid proof of it being interferancec or not?
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=4744
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8007614373&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Could find some more info. off the net too, but isn't worth my time.. Most honda motors are interfereance engines.

[Kabuki]

Technically, Honda does say that it's an Interferance engine. However, we (in 19 years of business) have never seen an 84-89 Accord engine bend valves when the timing belt has broken. You need to install a new belt and go from there. I really would stress to ONLY use the Honda belt, part number 14400-PC6-004, which lists at $37.50. Most aftermarket brands are recommended to be replaced after only 60,000 miles, but the Honda unit (and SUN, the OEM) is an extended life belt, and should be replaced every 90,000 miles.

[Spiderldr]

Ok, thanks you guys.

Now on to my next topic, how do I get the belt on. I read the fourm how to guide, but I have some problems with it. Like,

"Carefully turn the crankshaft through 2 revolutions and recheck the timing marks and camshaft sprockt index markproper alignment. If the crankshaft binds or seems to hit something, do not force it, as the valves may be hitting the pistons. If this happens, valve timing is incorrect. Remove the belt and go back to step 1 of reinstallation."

How does one carefully turn the crank? Is it some special tool? There's no way I'd be able to move it slowly with my hands. And the same goes for my camshaft gear sprocket thingy, I cant budge that thing with just myself.

[bobafett]

you can put a breaker bar on the crank pully/gear/whatever...


then you can slowly tap it to get your slow careful turning. also, removing the spark plugs will mean you are not fighting compression of the motor.

you have to be careful to not turn it too far, but its much easier with a breaker bar, for example when setting your timing you need to get quarter turns on your camshaft. :)

[88Accord-DX]

How does one carefully turn the crank? Is it some special tool? There's no way I'd be able to move it slowly with my hands. And the same goes for my camshaft gear sprocket thingy, I cant budge that thing with just myself.
As mentioned, put a breaker bar or ratchet with a 17mm or 19 mm socket on the crankshaft bolt & turn counter-clockwise. Take out all your spark plugs to make it easier to turn. If your looking to make sure your lined up properly, turn your crankshaft bolt untill you see a "T" on the flywheel (or driveplate) through the peephole on the bellhousing. Line up the "T" on you flywheel (or driveplate) to the pointer inside the peephole. You will need someone to watch & look at your flywheel (or drive plate for autos) with a flashlight while you turn the cranskaft (bolt).. I recommend you pull your valve cover off & pull the cover on the side of head to see the cam sprocket.
Your cam sprocket will have the word "UP" on it & the lines on each side of the cam sprocket will be lined up with the top of the cylinder head..
Edit- Thx cke & AZmik

[AZmike]

Mine are both 19 mm.

[blahblahblah]

just wondering...How do you guys know your at TDC? what to you check?

[88Accord-DX]

Depends on if you have a manual or auto. If you have a manual, there is a pointer through a peep hole on the bellhousing that has a "T" on the flywheel, should line up to the pointer in there. I beleive it should be the same on a auto, look to find the same mark on the drive plate or flexplate.
Look at your rotor under the distibutor cap, it should point at #1 spark plug wire.
If you want other methods of getting it there, just post on here, can walk you though it.

[azazel_18_2]

I just went through a rebuild from hell. I had a nice problem like this guy but not with a shady mechanic. The car set for a few weeks with the head off and the belt exposed. A rat ate mine in half. I know the easiest way to change your t-belt having done it MANY times. Pull your valve cover and distributor. Pulled the rocker arms off making sure to leave the bolts in the rocker arm assembly. Pull the top timing cover. Pull the two motor mount bolts. Turn the crank pulley until it is at TDC according to the flywheel. Jam a screwdriver in the flywheel or use an impact to get the crank pulley bolt out. Pull all accessory belts and the pulley will fall off. Then remove the lower timing cover. NOw from above the vehicle drop your belt first around the crank gear. Make sure you get the t-belt on the oil pump and the tensioner. You can now put the crank pulley and the lower timing cover back on . You will have a little bit of a time getting the t-belt through the motor mount but it is possible. Make sure once again that the crank is at TDC. Lay the cam on the head. Install the timing belt on it the the up arrow at 12'O clock position. Install the rocker arm assembly on top of the cam. Rotate the engine a few times and check the timing. You can now install your distributor. It can only go on one way so no worries there. Install the timing cover and valve cover. You may need a jack to get the motor mount back in place. If you have any more q' just ask!!

[POS carb]

why do you have to remove the rockers?

[azazel_18_2]

It makes it easier to put the t-belt on. Trust me, I tried many other ways and this was the easiest!

[Kabuki]

It makes it easier to put the t-belt on. Trust me, I tried many other ways and this was the easiest!

Or you could just loosen the tensioner and it'll slide right on to the cam gear.