turbo build up A20

[85lude]

I was sent from preludepower.com and told that you guys really know your A20's. I would like to know where I can get springs,retainers,valves,mild cam or turbo cam,rods, pistons. these a20's are old but I love em. I've been searching and havent found any thing. I have also heard that ls rods will fit the A20?!?! Also does anyone still makes a turbo header?!?! any help will be very appericiated thanks guys.

[white ricer]

turbo headers are going to have to be custom. why do you want to replace all these things in the motor? you can run moderate boost on these motors bone stock. Just some minor ignition and fab work.

[85lude]

yeah I was thinking about it today and I would like to at least do some head work like a light port and polish a mild cam stock spring would work fine because I not reving over 8 grand. but I would like to at least rebuild the bottom end and balance it. like you said moderate boost nothing over 12 lbs at the most. the motor right now has some miles on it and was planning on rebuilding it anyway.

[Legend_master]

I dont knwo about all the motor parts, those will be kinda hard to find but there is a member selling a Turbo Manifold (http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=47899) on this site right now. After you get the manifold it's all easy stuff for a turbo a20. Hope this helps good luck.

[85lude]

ok I'll look it up thanks. It's much easier when the header is pre made.

[Legend_master]

ok I'll look it up thanks. It's much easier when the header is pre made.


just click the link I provided

[FyreDaug]

How much boost are you planning on running? You can run 10 no problem, and like said all you need is some ignition control and some fabrication. Leave the bottom end alone unless your going over 17 Id say, pnp wont do you too much good when your forcing it. And the stock cam seems fine anyways, no overlap. Overlap = bad on turbo car, I dont think theres any cams not having any overlap. A custom cam will cost you. If you REALLY want, just port match the head, and get a custom cam for your boost. Dont bother with anything else, unless the motor isnt in the greatest shape... but then again, you could rebuild it or pick from the 100's of accords in the wreckers

[bobafett]

pretty much ignore fyredog there...

port and polish work gets AMPLIFIED results on a forced induction application, and you certainly SHOULD have a motor internals addressed if you are running even slightly less than '17' psi...

custom cams are cheap, delta will do a grind for 115 shipped, without a core! they can give you a grind that is compatible with a turbo motor as well. while its true that a stock cam is better than a NA performance cam in general, a custom turbo cam can have plenty of benifit over a stock cam.

if you plan on boosting the motor, and having it last a while, DO rebuild the bottom end and freshen up the head.

for rods, yes you can use ls integra rods (get forged rods, eagle h-beam is what is in my built motor) but you need to then have custom pistons made with a 21mm wrist pin. diamond racing will build u a set for $525 ish dialed in to whatever specs you want, including the 21mm pin, and total seal rings with a chrome steel top ring. (good for boost).

i can get you part numbers on king tri metal bearings, and you can order arp head fasteners (i can get you part numbers on these as well)

SI valves can get you custom valves, and i IMAGINE they can help with retainers and springs, but there is no specific application for the a20 on their site.

i am the only member i know of with ti retainers and high compression valve springs for an a20, and i bought them off of a member who abandoned a build, and he doesnt remember where he got them. :( but SOMEBODY bothered to make them. :)

the main problem you are going to run into is how to tune it, and since i havent come accross that bridge yet, im not going to be able to offer much advice, but you have a few choices....

standalone: AEM EMS, megasquirt, SDS EFI
hack: AFC BTM
conversion: obd1 swap and crome or some other editor...

good luck with the turbo build, if u want those part numbers just let me know and i can hook u up. :)

[b8er]

i would actually like those part numbers bobafett, they would be nice to know and could come in handy for me in the future, thanks

[ZackieDarko]

ditto on the request for part numbers please :)

[85lude]

I plan on running no more than 12lbs of boost. I have been reading in my honda book and it said that I can have the stock rods shot peened and that would strenthen them up to handle like 15 lbs. does delta have a web site or phone # so I can talk to them. engine management I was just going to have a safc along with dsm blue top 450's and tune it out for now. and yes can you get me the number for the bearings and valves and does both of those companys have websites?

[bobafett]

king tri metal bearings

main bearing:
MB 5168AM

thrust washer:
TW 110AM

rod bearing:
CR 439AM


www.deltacam.com
www.sivalves.com

i will have to get back to you guys for the part numbers on the ARP's

as for running 12psi with SAFC and 450's, i PERSONALLY think that 12psi is a little high to just be tuning with the SAFC, i wouldnt run more than 10 psi on safc. but stock shot peened rods should be alright with 12psi.

when im done with my build (hopefully a couple months) ill do a full parts list with prices if i can get them. :)

[85lude]

thanks bobafett right now I'm ging to use a stock a20 until I get my other a20 built. And I got the turbo header from 88 accord ltd and I might get the t3 turbo from him to. But when I build the A20 I will probly build the whole thing like rods pisons head work every thing this was I can still drive my car and take my time building the A20. Have you heard anything about boring out the block for a b20 piston?? like cooling problems and so on.

[AccordEpicenter]

Just remember that managemant is the key. Run a shitty tune and youll blow it at even like 5psi or even less. Before i put my accord away i was running 13psi on a very very conservative tune with no problems on a completely stock motor. You need HP goals to figure out what youll need to achieve them. I do agree with bobafett and stuff hes saying... like even though ive been running 13psi on the safc, i wouldnt reccomend it, i really need to upgrade to obd1. Get better managemant than an AFC over 10psi. I will say that it worked good for 10psi though.

[85lude]

Well I'm not going to run 12 psi right off the bat I'll run with 5-7 psi for a while and break it in and tune it and such. have you guys heard of zdyne engine managment?? they do obd 0 ecus only but I dont know if they are a good company or not?

[FyreDaug]

I was just giving suggestions on a cheap build, incase he wasnt actually going all out when he found the costs of stuff.

Port and polish will help yes, but you are still FORCING it in, so intake side wont make as much of a difference, but im not here to argue against someone that actually has turboed an a20, and im definately not arguing it will flow better. I suppose you could ignore my previous post

[AccordEpicenter]

Zdyne is good but they dont do anything for our cars, youd have to rewire and convert to civic obd0 but if you have to do that you might as well go to obd1 and chip a civic ecu and run crome or uberdata. Zdyne ecus arent cheap, even now. I personally believe that one of the bigger restrictions in the engine is the stock intake mani and tb, then the head etc. You dont need to go to town on porting but a little helps, but i think youll get big gains on a turbo setup going to a b16 or aebs intake mani and a big tb such as bobafetts buildup. Im gonna upgrade as well, so ill see firsthand next year

[Justin86]

yea you can run 10psi on a rebuilt short block, still dosn't mean it won't blow, just depends on your driving. If you race it full out around a track don't plan on it lasting too long. My rods lasted for about 8mins at 7psi from 4K-6Krpms and going up to 130mph. So long as you don't try to drive it like a circut car you will be good on a stock bottom end. ;)

But what I can tell you is that 8mins was some of the most exciting driving I have ever done. :D

[AccordEpicenter]

As long as you dont boost in 5th gear and have a conservative tune you should be fine on a good condition stock motor at 10psi. I think 13psi like im doing is pushing it on pump gas but we will see. It is all in the tune though

[85lude]

I was going to put a stock b16 manifold and tb on the A20. And I think I will just go with the obd1 conversion. And what about puting B20 pistons in the A20 just so that I dont have to get custom ones all I would do is bores out the block. oh and justin I'm glad to hear that, that was the greatest 8min of your life.

[bobafett]

stock bore on a20 is 82.7mm, i went to 84mm which is appentrly about as much as u can/should do.... im not sure what the size of b20 pistons are, but if they are much bigger than 84mm, its probably out of the questions

if you are boosting, the two smartest mods are pistons and rods that are really strong. so the best bet is forged internals. if you ABSOLUTLY dont want to do that... at least get some 86-87 lxi pistons, which are 8.8:1 CR and shot peen your stock rods.

also if you need a b16 manifold, i have a bare oem 00si b16 manifold i will sell ya cheap

[85lude]

yeah I was thinking of boring it 84mm with srp or ross or something like that and eagle rods. how much for the manifold bobafett??

[bobafett]

40 + shipping sound fair?

[AccordEpicenter]

I personally dont subscribe to the "lower your compression ratio to boost your engine" 9.3:1 compression is plenty boost friendly even on pump gas. Youll make more power at the same boost level and the car will be more fun to drive. A few guys have run just forged pistons on stock rods on big boost A20s and had no problems, but they do generally require machine work such as resizing, new rod bolts, shotpeening etc, and machine work aint cheap, so you might as well spend the little extra money on eagle H beam rods or other aftermarket rods and enjoy the piece of mind. I would have no reservations running the stock rods at the stock rev limit to around 400hp provided they were shotpeened and had good rod bolts installed however

[85lude]

yeah bobafett thats good pm me your address and I'll get the money order sent off on monday. I also agree with you accord I think that 9.5:1 compression would be the most compression I would go considering it's pupm gas. and even for a daily driver car it would be a good idea to put in some h beams if you have the extra money to do it to have pease of mind like you said.

[Accordtheory]

My rods lasted for about 8mins at 7psi from 4K-6Krpms and going up to 130mph.

wtf?? I used to hit 130 at the top of 4th all the time at 12-13psi. The rods are not the weakest link..what happened??

[bobafett]

I personally dont subscribe to the "lower your compression ratio to boost your engine" 9.3:1 compression is plenty boost friendly even on pump gas. Youll make more power at the same boost level and the car will be more fun to drive. A few guys have run just forged pistons on stock rods on big boost A20s and had no problems, but they do generally require machine work such as resizing, new rod bolts, shotpeening etc, and machine work aint cheap, so you might as well spend the little extra money on eagle H beam rods or other aftermarket rods and enjoy the piece of mind. I would have no reservations running the stock rods at the stock rev limit to around 400hp provided they were shotpeened and had good rod bolts installed however


this is true... and 9.3 is fine.. but as we ALL know... its alllll in the tune. u can fuck shit up with 7:1 or be fine with 11:1, its all in the tuning. :)

the only reason im going so low compression is cause we have reaaally shitty gas in washington and oregon, and i need this motor to last a long as time. and im not losing much compression from what i started with (8.8) so i wont notice a huge loss in off boost power. withe the motor mods i have it should have plenty of grunt.

if i were more familiar with tuning cars ,and had more experience with boost, i would have loved to roll 9.5:1, but the people at diamond racing, and at dan halls performance (my machine shop) talked me out of it.

bottom line is: boosted accords are good, no matter how many psi, or what compression they are running! :D

[AccordEpicenter]

yeah its all in preference too bobafett, you cant go wrong with a boosted accord. I think justin was hitting 20+ psi with forged pistons on STOCK RODS. My entire engine is fine after running thousands of miles on 10-11psi and hundreds of miles on 13-nearly 14 psi, the rods arent the weak link. Perhaps the pistons are, but you can kill both at any psi with a bad tune which i believe you had justin86. I wouldnt boost over 4th gear, because big top speed runs damage parts and put a large continuous load on the engine which stresses everything, even on a built motor, so Ive never done 5th gear rippers

Edit: Im thinking about going with water/alcohol injection again to allow 13psi with street gas to quell detonation, race gas is expensive... ideas guys?

[Justin86]

well unless my ECU and gauges were lying I set it up to run rich, just to be safe. My engine went just cause it was time and I haven't been easy on it. Pistons blow from bad tune, not your rod bearings in most cases.

[85lude]

well guys I think I will share the A20 turbo build up victim I know it's not a 3 gee but it's my baby. I get the 87 si parts car tommorrow!!!

[85lude]

well i guess the picture thing isnt working sorry guys

[bobafett]

if thr picture is hosted online somewhere (read: not on your hard drive) and you know the address of it, just click the image icon in the quick reply text box. its the 2nd from the right. then past in your address to the image. it will show up in the thread then. :)

[Accordtheory]

well unless my ECU and gauges were lying I set it up to run rich, just to be safe. My engine went just cause it was time and I haven't been easy on it. Pistons blow from bad tune, not your rod bearings in most cases.

So what exactly happened?
You can damage rod bearings from detonation that isn't severe enough to break the ring lands. I'm pretty sure I've done that. There were metal filings in my oil..bearings out of spec, I replaced the bearings and the clearances were barely ok. My pistons and compression was still fine, although low. That engine was garbage though, from the moment I put it in my car. On my first engine I broke a ringland, and the bottom end was perfectly fine, good clearances, good looking bearings on that cylinder, and good oil press.

[A20A1]

well unless my ECU and gauges were lying I set it up to run rich, just to be safe. My engine went just cause it was time and I haven't been easy on it. Pistons blow from bad tune, not your rod bearings in most cases.

But richness isn't the best way to control detonation and too much can be detrimental.

Did you adjust your plug gaps?

[85lude]

the pic isnt online it's in the computer or hard drive

[A20A1]

get a www.photobucket.com site

resize your images to 800X800 pixles or less.

[85lude]

thanks A20 I'll try it right now

[AccordEpicenter]

You can be rich as all hell and still knock badly, especially if your unintercooled, have the wrong spark plugs in (wrong heat range) or have even slightly too much ignition timing. I think most people damage engines with a too agressive timing curve more often than leaning out... especially because everybody knows to go rich...

[Accordtheory]

I have the j&s safeguard and I sure as hell will be using it on my b series..that thing is awesome. It gives you a nice margin of safety for anything, hot day, lousy gas, boosting up a hill in 5th, etc.

[Justin86]

maybe you guys missed when I said I have rod knock. I checked my comp right after and they were all around 165psi, same as before I put the turbo on.

driving the car around 5000-6500 for 10mins straight it what did it in.

[85lude]

so what would be a good spark plug gap to use when I'm turboed to avoid detonation and bad ingnition? should I also invest in after market ignition like msd, mallory, ect

[Justin86]

For plugs you want stock or one step colder. With higher boost, hard driving, more heat a colder plug is best. It depends on you driving habits. If you drive it full out like a race car, under full boost all the time a plug 3 steps colder would be best.
With plug gaps when you increase them it will create a more intense spark, creating more heat but alos a more efficent burn, so good and bad for a turbo. But depending on the type of plug and ignition there is limit to plug gap, and ours cars get really bitchy if you don't have NGK's in there esp if you change the gap larger then stock.

[AccordEpicenter]

im 2 steps colder on a .028" gap. Id say that colder plugs are a must for boost. Im on a stock ignition besides the BTM, but the btm just corrects timing, it doesnt add spark like an MSD 6A or somthing. An MSD box would be a good idea but is not required

[85lude]

what brand of plug is a cold plug would ngk's work or should I get something eles. Oh and I have started my build up 1st converting the car over to efi!!!!

[AccordEpicenter]

im using somthing like NGK BPR7ES... Id only rock NGKS man. These seem to work pretty good

[85lude]

i've never had any problems with ngk's I just didnt know that I can get them in a colder spark. and I just got all the carb harness out of the car and the efi harness is ready to go in!!!!!1

[85lude]

here she is


well I guess not I cant get this thing to work could anyone post them if I send them to you by email. 3 geez wont host it

[85lude]

I just got my turbo last night and I need is a bov, charge pipe,and safc for right now and I'm still waiting for the header and down pipe to come in from accord88ltd i guess it was elijahs old manifold. I also got my cardomain site up to here's a link if you want to check it out www.cardomain.com/ride/2209427 I'll put a pic of the turbo tonight.

[cubert]

looks like youre making progress...keep it up

[88Accord-DX]

Here you go man. Looks like your coming along.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/2209000-2209999/2209427_7_full.jpg

and this A20 motor has 225,000 miles on it no smoke and still has some get up and go. so I'm going to put my ported and polished head on it and start boosting!!!!!

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/2209000-2209999/2209427_24_full.jpg

Turbo
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/2209000-2209999/2209427_23_full.jpg

[85lude]

hey thanks man the car in the pic is the parts car that I'm useing a garrett turbo with a .60 compresser side and .48 exaust side. so I dont know if it's a t3/t4 or just a bigger t3.

[AccordEpicenter]

that looks like a straight 60 trim to me, T3. thats ok though, its big enough to perform well on an A20... to like 275whp. You got a good deal on that turbo too. I run the same thing but with a .63 turbine housing, not toooo laggy down low but BIG top end

[bobafett]

lol i guess i will have BIIIIIIG topend then! rofl

[AccordEpicenter]

HUUUUUUUGEEEEE lol. But if you wanna go REALLY fAsT, you need nawwzzzz, 2 big bottles. And an ugly neon green paint job is not a bad way to spend $10,000

[85lude]

what rpm does the turbo reach full boost??

[Legend_master]

what rpm does the turbo reach full boost??


With a turbo that big on such a small motor, I would say somewhere between 3k and 4k. Not to sure, but thats the best guess I have.

[bobafett]

keep in mind that people use turbos this size and larger on d16 setups, and they work quite well. with a 2.0L A20 pushing it, it will likely run out of steam sooner than it would on a smaller displacement motor like the d series, or even b16 b18...

i think that turbo is just fine, or on the small side. :) like accordepicenter said in another thread, none of this GT28 / T3 stuff... get a BIG turbo! :)

its probably a good thing to have the turbo reach full boost a little higher in the rpm range. it will keep better mileage and drivability.

[truetune]

sorry to thread jack. I think A sticky should be made and put into the FAQ section of nothing but turbo info like part numbers and links of where to get everything. I know this is gonna be somewhat hard to do being each turbo build is gonna be a lil diffrent but all in all eveyone wants to know the same info. you can alredy find all the info if you just search I know but turbo builds are ever becoming more popular. well alright good luck on your A20 turbo build man. god I just called a place for a price on a equal length race turbo mani and they were like $1200 does equal length really make that big of a diffrence?

[bobafett]

just FYI... i am building a website that will accomodate turbo specific builds, and i plan to house a lot of info like part numbers, prices etc... and hopefully some useful how to's.... the domain has been bought, and a forum has been tenatively constructed.... but there is absoluetly no content on the site at this moment.

i will post a link when there is actually something worth checking out. but know that i am building the site, and it will be an excellent resource for turbo specific a20 projects.

[85lude]

A website devoted to turbos would be able to answer anyone's questions about what ever turbo sizes to use what kind of motor set up ect.

next weekend is when I'm going to get my head back from the shop. he's doing a full port and polish 5 angle valve job putting in dual springs and titanium retainers new valve guide seals. and I dont have to pay for it. I lay flooring for a living. So i'm going to lay down some laminate for him as trade work. here is his web site www.dh-racing.com . I'll post some pics when I get it and tell you guys how he did.

sorry I mispelled flooring

[bobafett]

thats really cool... keep us posted. :D

[truetune]

a web site just for turbo info sweet, good to hear.