another starting problem..

[maka_RTH]

k, i had made another thread about testing the blaster coil, thinking that might be bad.., but i'm pretty sure it's not, cuz i'm getting good spark when i pull the plugs out and ground them. the problem is, my car won't start. it was running perfectly fine, has never had problems starting unless the main relay needed replaced, and then it died on me, while i was driving. i tried turning it over for quite a bit still., but no luck, and i towed it home. i looked at it a few days later, cuz i was gone for the weekend (died friday evening, and i couldn't look at it till tuesday), and i tried starting a bit more, and noticed that the blue wire from the ignitor had come off the coil. i fixed that, and then i was getting good spark again, with new plugs and new cap and rotor. i had already established before i even noticed that wire that i was getting fuel, i cracked open the line at the fuel rail, and fuel spurted out when i turned the key on. main relay is good. the plugs will be wet after trying to start it for a bit. the thing is.., i can crank and crank and crank, and it won't start. not even with starter fluid. it will almost catch occasionally, but yeah. someone mentioned ECT sensor.., but i searched that, and it seems that is more of a cause of not being able to start a warmed up car, and i'm not sure how to test it if the car is cold either. any ideas why i can't start it? i've tried disconnecting the main relay to shut off the fuel and crank it with and without the plugs in to try and clear out possible excess fuel in the cylinders. it almost catches easier when i do that.., like, once it sounds like almost everything is cleared out. but, once i hook up the main relay again, and turn the key all the way and don't even give it a chance to prime, it still just turns. i need this started, any help would be appreciated.., and, sorry it's so long.., just trying to describe all i've done and what it may or may not be..

[Kabuki]

Wow. Getting spark and fuel? Sounds much like the ECT sensor. The only real way to test it is to hook up a multimeter to the leads, heat up some water, and insert the sensor. Then watch as the reading changes gradually. If the reading drops to zero or jumps to infinity (OL or out of limits) at any point, then use ice to cool the water back down to that point and see if it happens again. If it does, then your sensor is bad, and you should replace it.

[logic]

Hi, I would start by reminding there are three things required for an engine to run: fuel, spark, and timing.

If you verify there is spark by pulling a plug (check visually to see if it's fouled broken or anything when you take it out) and setting it on a good ground (a wire with clips works better) and watching for spark when someone cranks it, that will tell you if you have spark or not....

To test for fuel, I use starting fluid because it is much more volitile than gas and will start an engine w/o having to worry about correct air/fuel mixture....If it starts with starting fluid but not without then there is a problem with fuel delivery and you have to test further to see if you're not getting a signal to the injectors or if there is fuel pressure but not enough or too much, etc...

If you have spark and starting fluid doesn't start it, you then need to look at timing...

That should get you close enough to the trouble to be dangerous....:lol: Good luck!

[maka_RTH]

i've checked the timing with my timing gun while it was being cranked over.., it's still advanced the 2 degrees i had it set at. so, the timing should be good. one thing i have noticed.., is it does backfire out the intake manifold somewhat. but yeah.. it was fine last winter, well, it was fine up until it lost spark for a bit cuz of the wire off the coil..

[87AccordsterLx]

We diagnosed a no start problem like that on a 95 Cavi at Wyotech and it ended up being the Crank Position Sensor. Took a 7 thousand $$$ Modis Scan/Scope tool to find the damn problem.

[maka_RTH]

haha, so how do i test that? maybe i should look at the shop manual.., haha

[Honda-Master]

First off Maka ,,if you are getting fuel why using starter fuel?? the think sucks big time if you have to use carb cleaner,,,,,,Oh and Logic you forgot to add Compression .........have you removed the plugs and cleaned them i am sure they are all wet by now ,, also pull out the oil dipstick make sure oil is not full of gas,,,, double chk the cam timing , you cannot properly chk timing while it is being cranked over...just remove the upper t-belt cover make sure everything still lines up... cap and rotor ok,? unplug the TW sensor see if car starts ,,,

[maka_RTH]

the starter fluid is more when i disconnect the main relay, stopping the fuel from getting to the cylinders. i tried starter fluid to see if it might catch with that.., and it has problems even then.., just back firing out of the intake manifold. i also forgot to mention, i have an adjustable cam gear as well as a colt stage 1 cam in it. i can't remember the exact setting i have the cam gear at.., but i think it's plus or minus a half a degree, so hardly any at all. i'll have to double check that. but, i don't think that is off, cuz that would throw the timing off as well.., and that is still where i set it, so yeah.

[logic]

Well I'm not there looking at it, but it sure sounds like a timing issue (backfire out intake...) or much less likely, a blown head gasket or burn/bent valve....

[logic]

,,,,,,Oh and Logic you forgot to add Compression .........

OF course an engine needs compression, but I didn't include that in a troubleshooting post because it's kind of hard to loose enough compression to cause the car to not run at all when it was running fine 24 hrs earlier.....:)

[87AccordsterLx]

Crank Position Sensor is on the bottom of the block close the the crankshaft. It will either have 2 or 3 wires comming out of it. It sends signal to the PCM/ECU to tell it where the crankshaft is in relation to its rotation. I believe it reads the teeth on the flywheel but I may be mistaken. I would find the Sensor, its about 3-4 inches long and 3/4 inch thick, and see if it is at least giving signal. I think all wires should be hot when the key is in the on position.

[maka_RTH]

k, for the crank postition sensor.., i checked the shop manual and did a search, i'm pretty sure our cars don't have those, so that eliminates that. i was gonna say i don't remember any wires off the block like that. i'm still gonna try and retard my timing maybe.., see if that helps.. it's just wierd that it worked fine and now it doesn't

[Cheeseburger]

im sorry that you are going through all of this

[AccordRacing21]

I had a similar problem, and my TW sensor was out. I'd take it in and have it put on a scope so you don't waste money on parts you don't need. I dumped $200+ into it before I took it to a mechanic and spent $80 to get it fixed.

[maka_RTH]

im sorry that you are going through all of this
haha, what are you sorry for? i'm sure i'll figure it out, with help from all of you :)

[maka_RTH]

k, so it still hasn't started. i got a hold of a handheld compression tester. cylinders 1, 3, and 4 all read around 150. cylinder 2 was low at about 90. i put some oil in the cylinder, cranked it around some, and then it went up quite a bit, to like 180. i had oiled all the cylinders yesterday, i just don't think i got near as much in number 2 as the rest. so, with good compression across the board, i put all the plugs back in and reset the timing to stock. it still wouldn't start. i did pull the plug on the ECT sensor and tried to check the resistance, but i got no reading off the sensor. i checked on two other sensors i have (spare engine and another head i have), and niether of those showed a reading either, so yeah. i may be testing that wrong. also, when i t was unplugged, it the ECU threw code 12, which i had got shortly after i got my tranny back in and was able to drive around for a bit. now, code 12 is for the EGR lift sensor, so, why would it throw that code if the ECT sensor was unplugged? shouldn't it have been a code 6? when i got the code before, i checked it, and whenever i drove the car after that, it was fine and didn't throw the code. i do think it might be a tad rich, cuz whenever i unplug the main relay, to shut off the fuel, and clear out the cylinders, it's closer to starting once the cylinders are about cleared. then, i plug it back in and it just cranks still. any more ideas? is it the ECU is possibly bad? is the EGR really bad, and maybe open and too much unused fuel is going back into the cylinders? i dunno.., i'm about out of ideas..

[logic]

k, for the crank postition sensor.., i checked the shop manual and did a search, i'm pretty sure our cars don't have those, so that eliminates that. i was gonna say i don't remember any wires off the block like that. i'm still gonna try and retard my timing maybe.., see if that helps.. it's just wierd that it worked fine and now it doesn't

I was just looking at the factory electrical troubleshooting manual I got off ebay and efi does use a crank TDC sensor, I don't remember any wires or anything when I swapped motors either, that's why I was shocked to see it in the book (my book is for 87 & 88 Accords B.T.W.)

Also, if it's too rich to start, could be TW sensor...

[maka_RTH]

k. there is a crank/TDC sensor, it's part of the distributor. and, yeah, i am thinking that it is running too rich. the thing is, i reset the ECU, and tried another one, and when i disconnect the ECT/TW sensor, it now throws the right code. also, when i check the resistance on the sensor (haven't pulled it out), it appears to be what it should be for the current temperatures. i haven't checked to see if the ECU is getting the correct reading though. i forgot to do so when i had the seat out. what are all the possibilites of causing it to throw too much fuel in, causing it to be too rich to start? the plugs are wet, so it is getting fuel. the injectors all show the correct resistance. would too much fuel pressure really cause it to run richer? i have no way to test the pressure itself, but i have at least one other regulator i can swap out with, two if i can find my other one. what else would cause it to be too rich?

[logic]

k. there is a crank/TDC sensor, it's part of the distributor. and, yeah, i am thinking that it is running too rich. the thing is, i reset the ECU, and tried another one, and when i disconnect the ECT/TW sensor, it now throws the right code. also, when i check the resistance on the sensor (haven't pulled it out), it appears to be what it should be for the current temperatures. i haven't checked to see if the ECU is getting the correct reading though. i forgot to do so when i had the seat out. what are all the possibilites of causing it to throw too much fuel in, causing it to be too rich to start? the plugs are wet, so it is getting fuel. the injectors all show the correct resistance. would too much fuel pressure really cause it to run richer? i have no way to test the pressure itself, but i have at least one other regulator i can swap out with, two if i can find my other one. what else would cause it to be too rich?

Could it be a defective fuel pressure regulator or fuel injector causing leakage and therefore flooding?

[logic]

k. there is a crank/TDC sensor, it's part of the distributor. and, yeah, i am thinking that it is running too rich. the thing is, i reset the ECU, and tried another one, and when i disconnect the ECT/TW sensor, it now throws the right code. also, when i check the resistance on the sensor (haven't pulled it out), it appears to be what it should be for the current temperatures. i haven't checked to see if the ECU is getting the correct reading though. i forgot to do so when i had the seat out. what are all the possibilites of causing it to throw too much fuel in, causing it to be too rich to start? the plugs are wet, so it is getting fuel. the injectors all show the correct resistance. would too much fuel pressure really cause it to run richer? i have no way to test the pressure itself, but i have at least one other regulator i can swap out with, two if i can find my other one. what else would cause it to be too rich?

Damn! that really sounds like you got a wired one!!!

[maka_RTH]

:bowrofl: all hail idiot me :) :bowrofl:

so yeah.., finally took it to my dad's friends shop.., and, um, so yeah, i was thinking cylinders were 1-2-3-4, not 4-3-2-1, when you're looking at it. i've done this before, now that i think about it. so yeah, that's why it wouldn't start. i even remembered before, thinking that i remember when i had this problem before, i had to fix the wires, cuz they were hooked up wrong. but, i checked i don't know how many times that they were correct, if the cylinders were indeed 1-2-3-4. haha, yay for backwards reading :)

[Honda-Master]

ahy ahy ahy maka and you are having all of us pulling hair trying to figure it out ....:-) ..glad it is all fixed ......Happy Holidays to you and all your loved ones

[maka_RTH]

haha, thanks, happy holidays to you and your loved ones as well :)