Idle Problem , Power Loss

[lackej1971]

OK, heres the deal. 88 Accord DX, Carbeurated, Standard Shift. Everything is normal. No special add-ons. Ever since I bought this car, I have had a horrible time keeping it running. I know it's old, but MAN, this thing is driving me crazy. Now, I've heard about something in the carb called a float bowl or float something. I am thinking that this is the problem because quite honestly, I have done everything else to it. I love my car, but when I try to turn a corner, or even when I press in the clutch, the idle just goes down to almost zero and the car dies.

I am at a loss for ideas, but I am thinking that it has something to do with the carb. All of the vacuum lines are on and in good shape, but I may be missing something. Anyway, I had to adjust the idle today by adjusting the throttle cable nuts. I really hate guessing, but I am stumped until somebody can give me ideas.

If you suggest something and I have done it, I will let you know so maybe we can narrow down some possibilities. I am begging for help here. This has been happening on and off for 2.5 years!

Thanks in Advance, lackej1971

[A20A1]

no, please do not adjust the idle with the throttle cable nuts... actually you NEVER adjust the idle that way.

You have and Idle screw (Uses Philips Head) on the throttle cable side of the carb facing the front of the car.

You also have a Throttle stop screw on the throttle cable side of the carb facing the rear of the car.

Loosen or unhook your throttle cable... it does not need to be on the carb for the carb to idle. Then look at the thread below, I posted the way I adjust the idle, the steps I go through.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44074


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[lackej1971]

OK, I am familiar (I think) with the Idle Screw that you are talking about. I have adjusted that one and it helps for a little while, but then it goes right back to messing up. I was told by a "mechanic" that "these cars have to have their idle adjust using the throttle cable nuts". It sounded bad then and it still does.

I have no idea what a "float level" is or how to check it. Can you give me a little more info, because I think that could be the problem!?

I will do as your printout instructed. I am also interested in some of the performance mods that I can do to this car. Nothing too drastic, but I am really interested in that side of things now. Where do I look on the site for things like that?

Thank You so much for your prompt reply!! Lackej1971 :bowrofl:


no, please do not adjust the idle with the throttle cable nuts... actually you NEVER adjust the idle that way.

You have and Idle screw (Uses Philips Head) on the throttle cable side of the carb facing the front of the car.

You also have a Throttle stop screw on the throttle cable side of the carb facing the rear of the car.

Loosen or unhook your throttle cable... it does not need to be on the carb for the carb to idle. Then look at the thread below, I posted the way I adjust the idle, the steps I go through.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44074


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[A20A1]

The how-to for thw float level is here:
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350

You should search next time, it will be a lot easier.

[lackej1971]

Oh, Sorry bout that. I am sort of new here and just saw the search button. It won't happen again.

OK, now the good part. I printed out the instructions on how to set the idle on my car. I went out today and proceeded to do it. I read everything and worked as I read each instruction. If I didn't understand, I read it until I did!! When I was done, I had to adjust the idle screws for the A/C and the other idle screw a little bit.
Took it for a test spin and MAN!!! What a difference!!!! Plenty of pep, but I seem to have a small oil leak OR some oil is burning off that was leaking FROM THE CRACKED PVC HOSE!!! (I replaced that). I guess what I am saying here is "Thanks!" You have really helped me alot and I am grateful. I will help others when I come to a similar situation.
Keep layin' down the good karma. :werd:
Lackej1971
The how-to for thw float level is here:
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350

You should search next time, it will be a lot easier.

[lackej1971]

When I disconnect the PCV Filter Hose that goes up to my breather while the engine is running, it really blows alot of oily smelling vapor/smoke out of it. It's not black or anything, but it is clogging up my air filter really quick with oil vapor. I have some PCV filter material in the attachment where the hose goes, but it still loads up the filter. Is this just a part of normal operation?

I did notice that when I held the hose close to the intake on the carb, that it made the carb run smoother and seemed to make it rev a little higher. Would it harm things if I could make a bypass where the fumes could be more easily ingested by the carb and just skip my filter altogether? Those things are $8.00 and i just replaced mine!! It's already oily.

What is your opinion?

Thanks, Lackej1971 :rice:

[A20A1]

The PCV filter is needed, you don't want to burn oil in the carb or bypass the filter. If you have a lot of gasses coming out it could mean your valve seals are leaking.

Same thing goes for the PCV valve.
Leave the PCV hose and vale connected, what comes out of the hole is called "BLOW-BY" It's the gasses that seep past the Pistion Rings.
Replace any broken hoses, replace the PCV valve if it doesn't rattle.

My suggestion to you is remove the valve cover, and get some engine cleaner, clean out the roof of the valve cover. The roof has holes and baffels to help keep out oil and drain it back down so it doesn't go to the PCV filter.

After you clean out all the oil sludge rinse out the engine cleaner so it doesn't contaminate the oil in the cylinder head, Then reinstall the valve cover.

[lackej1971]

Man,

You really know alot about these little cars. First chance I get to do this, I am going to do it. I have also noticed a small puddle of water under my car after it has ran for a while. Normally, I would assume that this was condensation coming from running the A/C, but it does not seem to be coming from that drainage tube.

It is more under the engine area. Now, I had the heads shaved and the head gaskets replaced when I got this car. I have noticed small droplets of water around the heads also. I opened the coolant cap and there is a very small amount of brown oil on the surface of the water where the filler hole is. It has been that way since the heads were done 2 years ago. I have not changed the coolant in it since then.

Can these water droplets around the heads be an indicator of impending failure or is it just something I can fix myself?

Thanks, Lackej1971

[lackej1971]

until it gets warm. When it gets warm, it runs FINE :bowrofl: (Thanks to the awesome "How To" tutorial on how to set the normal engine idle.) :bowrofl: Now I am trying to find out how to set the cold idle. I have done several searches and I really cannot seem to see where to go. :uh:

I am going to keep looking, but I need some answers pretty quick. I have messed with the idle screws some just to get my car where it will stay running, but I want it to start and stay started, not stumble around and die on me until it warms up. Here are the specs:

88 Honda Accord DX
Standard Tranny
Carbeurated 2.0 Liter Engine

Idle is usually erratic erratic at best. It just won't stay good for long no matter how much I try to keep it running the same way. PLEASE HELP.

Thanks, Lackej1971 :werd:

[Soundy]

Sounds like the choke isn't working right. Is is a manual or automatic choke? If the latter, try searching on that... if the former, I'm sorry, but this board can't help you :)

[A20A1]

It's electric choke... part of the choke is operated by vaccum and the vacuum supplied to the choke and fast idle unloader go through a thermovalve which is dependent on engine coolant to work correctly. You said you saw puddles of water in a different post. I dunno if your coolant system is leaking... at least your idle gets better once the car warms up.

There are a few adjustments for the choke and fast idle unloader.
The fast idle is what starts your idle speed in the 3,000 rpm range when you first start the car. I'm not too familliar with the fast idle and choke linkage but the choke and fast idle go down in stages based on a "CAM" somewhere on the linkage, and there are metal "TABS" you bend to adjust some of it.
The choke "CHOKES" the air coming into the carb, since the carb is on the IDLE CIRCUIT it pulls out about the same amount of fuel, with less air coming in you get a Richer Air/Fuel (A/F) mixture. The choke opens up as it progesses through the different stages, like how the fast idle slowly lowers the RPM to normal idle as it progresses through it's stages.

Pumping the gas pedal can sometimes disengage fast idle. Pushing the pedal is supposed to reset the linkage, I think thats why some people press the gas and let go and then the idle goes up even higher.


There is a Fast Idle Screw on the back of the carb, below the thorttle stop screw, on the throttle linkage where the throttle cable connects. It's a very small screw. Check out the "carb rebuild" thread... or "how to adjust your carb" in the How-to section.
It's not the idle adjust screw... that screw is at the front of the carb.

[Soundy]

Hmmmm the manual has a LOT of pages on the automatic choke. I won't post all the pictures directly, but if you want to look at them they're at http://www.moltenimage.com/freebies/g3accord/fuel_and_emission_controls_carb/, files 11-28.jpg through 11-34.jpg

[lackej1971]

OK, heres the deal. Last night it was about 20 degrees and I was on the interstate doing just fine. Had the cruise control set at 70 MPH. As I was going up a slight incline, I noticed that my speed decreased to 65, 60 and then 55! I tried to press the gas and IT WAS FLOORED! My poor car was doing all it could to keep running, but it was losing the fight quickly. I made my way to the side of the road and my exhaust sounded like it was growling or something. Finally, my car shut off. Boy was I scared. I got out and noticed that the tailpipe was BILLOWING WHITE SMOKE! "Oh no, I have blown a head gasket" I thought. Took the breather cover off and it had a very small amount of oil and condensated moisture which looked like milk. Now I really thought that I had blown a gasket. Check the oil dipstick and it was clean.

I sprayed a little carb cleaner into the carb and PRAYED to GOD that it would start. IT DID!!!! Man it was smoking alot, but then it just cleaned up and started doing normal exhaust again. I turned that sucker around and went home. It did quit on me once when I stopped, but after that, it was running really strong!!! I still thought I had blown a gasket, so I just went 55 MPH all the way home, but I made it home. Started it today and no smoke at all.

Heres the question: Was I experiencing a temporary blockage in my catalytic converter? I have heard things similar to this before and it was the CC blowing the obstruction out of the tailpipe.

What do you guys think?

James

[RamThis]

Sounds like you got a gas tank full of water. :ugh:

[lackej1971]

Yeah, I thought that at one time, but I have been using fuel dryer for the past 4 fillups. It seems to help dry out the water from my tank pretty good, but this has been happening at varying degrees for about 2 weeks now. It just really freaked me out being stuck on the side of the interstate. I have gotten my 93 Ford Taurus some new tires and I installed a new Body Control Computer and now I have to get tags and an alignment on the tires and I'll probably try fixing my Accord up a little at a time.

The Accord has always had problems of some sort, but I am really starting to suspect the exhaust system. I know that these cars are paid off and that is an investment in itself, but I am damn sick and tired of not having a car that is absolutely reliable. In Short, IT SUCKS!

James

[Cant Stop]

if your converter is clogging up take it for a drive at night, run it locally till it acts up again park it in a dark spot and look under the car where the converter is if if is glowing red then it is clogged or if it glowing a little it is clogged, friend of mine had a small chevy that did this it caught the weeds on fire on the side of the road and you could see it glowing, check your radiator for low water or excessive use of water as a bad head gasket does not always blow oil but can blow water into the exhaust and not in the oil, had a taurus i got for parts that did this it ran great till you put water in it then the clouds began.
so check your water and make sure your temp gauge is working.

[Cant Stop]

you live in the rust belt? could be getting water in your gas some stations can be real bad with this.

[lackej1971]

I described this problem to a pretty smart guy that works on these cars and he told me that my "Float Bowl" was sticking. I used a little carb cleaner and it did OK, but it still seems to be not running so well. Also, EVERYTIME I start my car, it runs a second and then shuts off until I start it again. What could be the cause of this?

Even if I give it some gas to keep it from dying on me, as soon as I let off the gas, it will die until I restart it. Any Ideas?

James

[RamThis]

undo the drain plug on your gas tank into a clean container and look for that nice layer of water and debris at the bottom of the container. If it all comes out clean, then you might be ok and not have much or any water in the system. Problem is, when you get water in the carb, its hard to get it out of the fuel bowl without going in manually and cleaning it out, because every time the car gets a burp of that water, it will get in the cylinders and intake and kill the engine, usually because its taking the place of the fuel that should be getting atomized in the intake. Once it gets in the cylinders, it has a tendency to set in the spark plug electrode gap and render it useless until it evaporates.

Trust me, I dumped 8 Grand in my truck to install a performance engine when I, and another seasoned mechanic that is twice my age, deemed my stock engine dead, when my truck just up and died on me one day. We checked the ignition system and plugs, and found water on a couple. Finding that, and having had problems with it trying to overheat in the past, we assumed cracked heads or blown head gasket. I pulled the engine and had the heads checked, they showed to be cracked in four places, two each head. So, I assumed that meant we were right in our determination of why the truck died on me. Four months later and many thousands of dollars later to replace the engine with a big beefy hot rod engine, I go to install my fuel rail to my new injectors on my new engine, and when I pick it up to clean it off before installing it, a bunch of rusty water pours out. I start checking things out more, only to find water all through the fuel lines, the old injectors, and about a gallon of dirty water in the fuel tank. Thats where the water had come from. Unfortuantely, the old heads I had been running might have had some small cracks in them, but they were working ok, what killed me was the dam water in the fuel, which only seemed to come out of two injectors, and for some reason just shut the rest off.

I think I want to install an inline glass bowl on all my fuel lines now just in case a car dies on me, I can look at that fuel bowl and instantly know if it was due to water in the fuel LOL.

[spnrx]

undo the drain plug on your gas tank into a clean container and look for that nice layer of water and debris at the bottom of the container. If it all comes out clean, then you might be ok and not have much or any water in the system. Problem is, when you get water in the carb, its hard to get it out of the fuel bowl without going in manually and cleaning it out, because every time the car gets a burp of that water, it will get in the cylinders and intake and kill the engine, usually because its taking the place of the fuel that should be getting atomized in the intake. Once it gets in the cylinders, it has a tendency to set in the spark plug electrode gap and render it useless until it evaporates.
Trust me, I dumped 8 Grand in my truck to install a performance engine when I, and another seasoned mechanic that is twice my age, deemed my stock engine dead, when my truck just up and died on me one day. We checked the ignition system and plugs, and found water on a couple. Finding that, and having had problems with it trying to overheat in the past, we assumed cracked heads or blown head gasket. I pulled the engine and had the heads checked, they showed to be cracked in four places, two each head. So, I assumed that meant we were right in our determination of why the truck died on me. Four months later and many thousands of dollars later to replace the engine with a big beefy hot rod engine, I go to install my fuel rail to my new injectors on my new engine, and when I pick it up to clean it off before installing it, a bunch of rusty water pours out. I start checking things out more, only to find water all through the fuel lines, the old injectors, and about a gallon of dirty water in the fuel tank. Thats where the water had come from. Unfortuantely, the old heads I had been running might have had some small cracks in them, but they were working ok, what killed me was the dam water in the fuel, which only seemed to come out of two injectors, and for some reason just shut the rest off.
I think I want to install an inline glass bowl on all my fuel lines now just in case a car dies on me, I can look at that fuel bowl and instantly know if it was due to water in the fuel LOL.

Where is the fuel bowl? Cause my car is doing the exact same thing as his.

[RamThis]

It an internal chamber in the carburetor, where the float is located. You have to remove the top hat of the carb to gain access to the fuel bowl. There is a How To posted in here somewhere that Ive seen, you can do a search for it. If I find the post again Ill give you a link.

[lackej1971]

Ya Know, I had this problem some time back and just on a hunch, I removed the breather and disconnected the fuel line to the carb. Put it in a glass jar and turned the key several times. Damn! It had little puddles of dirty water in the bottom of the glass. Like an idiot, I assumed that that was all there was. Now I am having this problem again. You know, the glass bowl idea really isn't that silly. I may look into figuring out a way to do just that, because I removed the tank once before and it had water all in it. Cleaned it out and let it dry in the summer sun. Now I am faced with this crap again. If I do this, I will post pics of my contraption so others can benefit also.

I may just have to build a seperator for the gas and water. If that is what it will take, then I will do it!!!! Maybe I can get a syringe and some 1/8 nylon tubing and use it to drian the float bowl without disassembling it! What do you think?

James

[lackej1971]

OK, I am really getting sick of trying to figure out what the hell is going wrong with my 88 accord. It has AGAIN started idling erratically, shutting off on me, and has a slipping feeling almost as if the car is bogging down in too low of a gear.

I do hear some kind of what sounds like a vacuum leak under the hood, but I have checked all known lines and they appear to be OK. My car was running so good and now, I can't trust it to stay running in my driveway.

Does anybody have any ideas? I have thought that it might be water trapped behind the fuel filter and that is stopping the flow of fuel to the engine. I am asking for help on this one.

James

[Cobra]

OK, I am really getting sick of trying to figure out what the hell is going wrong with my 88 accord. :welcome:

I hear ya bro. I have a similar problem and just discovered my PCV valve had slipped out from the underneath part of the intake (hard to see).

If you think you hear a leak, take a piece of garden hose and put one end to your ear and the other to parts of the engine. You will hear the leak.

Take care,
Dan

[A20A1]

The fuel tank filler neck may need replacing... there was a recall on that part. It rusts out. Rust will put dirt looking material in the tank. You might want to look into getting a new tank if yours is bad or have the dealer replace the filler neck if that is bad. Maybe an excuse to run a fuel cell. :)

[lackej1971]

If there was a way to convert my car to a fuel cell, I would do it. It's not a real pretty car, but it's paid for, gets 30 miles to the gallon (average) and besides that, I really like it. I have decided that I am NOT going to sell this car. I only paid $200 for it and it still runs. I have fixed alot of things on it, but I CANNOT get the damned engine to run reliably. I am running out of ideas besides just removing the top of the carb and trying to clean it out or at least see if that has anything to do with the sluggish performance.

The thing I just cannot understand is that everything was running pretty good until it messed up on the interstate. Since then, it has run like crap. I would love to just know what is really wrong. I've tried the hose to the ear trick, but it seems like the hissing noise is coming from the infamous "Black Box". I don't know what it is, what it does or how to fix it and I am really getting mad at my inability to find the problem. Thanks GOD I got my 93 Ford Taurus running. Maybe I can work on my Honda with confidence now, but I'll take any help you guys can give me.

Thanks, James

[Hondaisok]

Have you bled your coolant system lately? Believe it or not, I was having the same problems, bled the heck out of the system, and it cleared up my idle problems. I think A20A1 emphasizes this in a lot of posts. Also, make sure the float is adjusted to the middle of the window.

[lackej1971]

I just got through draining my cooling system and I also ran some "Zerex Super Cleaner" through it as well. Peplaced the rusty thermostat also. Drained the system and filled it with good A/F. About 2 months ago, I removed the sight glass where the float level is set and cleaned the sight glass. Then I sat the float level to right in the middle.

I've replaced plug wires, distributor cap, spark plugs, oxygen sensors, set the gap in the valve springs (using the tutorial on here), re-set the ignition timing, used copious amounts of Carb Cleaner, used fuel treatment of all types, replaced the old transmission oil and obviously the regular oil.

I guess I have probably done more, but I am just sick and tired of looking for the problem and not finding it. If you can come up with anything else, please let me know.

James :uh:

[lackej1971]

Do any of you guys think it would make sense for me to remove the top of my carb and check for obstructions in there? What am I looking at difficulty wise? Are there any nasty surprises that I need to look out for? Do I just need a new carb altogether?

Desperate, James:sad2:

[A20A1]

Read the thread... the last few posts show you what to do to remove the top hat and clean out the fuel bowl and jets.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350

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[lackej1971]

Tales From The Carb:

OK Guys, I got up the nerve to take the top hat off my carb. What I found was true "Shock and Awe". In the fuel bowl, it looked like a red box of sand in the bottom. I thought that it might be RUST, so I took a magnet and stirred it around in the bowl. Nothing came out AT ALL! Opened up the large side drainage panel on the side and commenced to spraying the debris out with carb cleaner. I am not joking when I say that this stuff was 1/4 inch deep. I can just see the slurry resulting when the fuel hits this stuff during a startup. No wonder it would quit everytime.

After cleaning and reassembly, I started the car and just let it idle for a while to see if it would quit. It was a little weak, but it got much stronger as it warmed up. I took it around the block and it ran like a race car. When I used to turn, it would quit. Now, it begs for more. I just hope that it lasts!!!!

I'm not going to assume that this is everyones problem, but you have read my past posts. If your problems are similar to mine, it's worth a peek inside the float chamber.

I'll keep you guys posted on any further events.

James:rockon:

[A20A1]

You removed the side access pannel? Be careful cause those rubber gaskets might leak on reassembly. So keep an eye on them for any leaks.

[lackej1971]

Hmmmm? I'll have to check that out. Haven't smelled gas too strong arond the outside of the car, but I believe that the inside smells like oil ALOT. Thanks for the heads up!

James

[spnrx]

All the links and images seem to not be working properly. I need to do what he did which is remove the air box, PCV thing, and pop off the top hat to look at the float bowl and maybe clean it out. Please someone help me. Maybe pics or links that work. Even the pics in the How to aren't working.

[Soundy]

http://www.moltenimage.com/freebies/g3accord/fuel_and_emission_controls_carb/11-20.jpg
http://www.moltenimage.com/freebies/g3accord/fuel_and_emission_controls_carb/11-50.jpg
http://www.moltenimage.com/freebies/g3accord/fuel_and_emission_controls_carb/11-51.jpg

[A20A1]

I fixed most of the links, if a link doesn't work make sure it looks like this:
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350


If it doesn,t then add in the text "forum/" with the slash and it should work.
BAD LINK - http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=5350
GOOD LINK - http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350

[spnrx]

I fixed most of the links, if a link doesn't work make sure it looks like this:
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350


If it doesn,t then add in the text "forum/" with the slash and it should work.
BAD LINK - http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=5350
GOOD LINK - http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350

OK thanks alot! To both of ya

[lackej1971]

Well,

You can hang up my days of driving with confidence in my 88 Honda Accord. Yesterday, I was getting onto the interstate and then I started to notice ALOT of smoke coming out the back of my car. I was going to pull over, but I really didn't want to get stuck on the side of the interstate with a broke down car and my daughter in the car.

Went to the next exit and got off. Pulled into a gas station and popped the hood. Can you say OIL FIRE! Oh YES!!!! I poured my coffee on the fire and smacked out what was left. I had blown a valve cover gasket and squirted oil EVERYWHERE. It caught on fire and I was so damn mad I swore then and there that I was going to buy a new Nissan Sentra (I get a pretty good Family Plan discount).

Cars come and go, but you only go around once in this life and this bastard has left me stranded for the last time! When I do get my new car, I am selling this car AND my Ford Taurus to somebody else and paying that money on my new car. I am sick to death of dealing with not being able to rely on my car that I need to be able to pick my daughter up with.

Well, I know this is off the thread, but I just wanted to let you guys know that unless I come into a lot of money, I will not have a Honda for some time to come.

Thanks, James Lackey

[Soundy]

I know I've wanted to swear at my Accords (all three of them) at one time or another for giving me headaches at just the worst time... but what happened to you can happen to pretty much ANY car. Most of my other vehicles have had some nasty problems at one time or another... the Hondas have overall been the LEAST problematic overall. About the only vehicle I've driven that was more durable was my dad's '81 Dodge pickup... bought it new, retired it in '87 with over 450,000km on it, and that ol' Dodge slant-6 motor was still going strong despite taking 4 liters of oil for a 300km trip after my sister ran it dry of oil once...

[lackej1971]

I went and bought a 2005 Nissan Sentra SE today! I REALLY didn't want to have to do it, but I am now glad that I did. It has just over 20,000 miles on it, but the car is in new condition and is covered with a 6 year 75000 mile warranty bumper to bumper.

I love my old Accord and I have toyed with the idea of keeping it, but it will just mean more cost to add to the already slim budget that I am on. I just cannot afford to keep her around. I cleaned it up pretty good but it is still smoking pretty good when it gets hot. I think that damn oil got EVERYWHERE and it just has to burn off.

Thanks, James Lackey