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Bglad420
12-19-2005, 10:34 PM
OK I looked around for a while found vaugne resultd for what i wanted so I'll post a new thread. I'm contemplating turboing my accord and I want to know some things first. My car is an 88 LXi hatch, JDM lights, dx front bumper, header, exhaust, intake etc.


Questions I have
1. What size turbos are the best for our cars
2. How much boost can our cars handle stock?
3. What mods will I need to do besides make my manifold and piping?
4. What kind of power gain will I see?
5. What kind of problems will arise, ecu, etc.

Thanks

paso100
12-19-2005, 11:44 PM
Did you look here?
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=46593

ex1z7
12-20-2005, 02:33 AM
Well lets see...
my oil lines were $80
restrictor $10
Apexi Safc and BTM $225
450cc injectors $60
DSM bov $50
Turbo $160
Flanges/manifold parts $90
Charge pipe/Exhaust pipe U bends etc $135
Silicone couplers/T bolt clamps (top notch stuff) $90
big Clutchnet clutch: $385
Custom Coach FMIC $235
Walbro 255 lph intank $100
Colder plugs $9

What else am i forgetting? Thats $1600.
You could do it for much less though...

Used Intercooler $100
Clutchnet Clutch $385
Colder plugs $9
Couplers/clamps $40
Pipe/bends $90
Manifold stuff $90
Turbo $100
Oil lines $75
restrictor $10
Apexi Safc $140
450cc injectors $60

Thats $1099 and a setup like that could do 7-8 psi easily and run in the 14s if you do it right. After that id reccomend a fuel pump, better managemant or add an MSD btm. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

Bglad420
12-20-2005, 11:56 AM
I have most the turbo stuff off my buddys SR20DET, but what I need to know is how much our cars can handle what are the specs for an 88 LXi? I need stock compression, fuelpump rate, injector size, any ecu mods needed? Thanks.

bobafett
12-20-2005, 12:58 PM
88lxi has compression around 9.2:1
injectors are probably not big enough. i think 240cc comes to mind, but dont quote me.

u will need an SACF and something to pull timing and probably an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, at a BARE MINIMUM, for management. there is no such thing as ecu mods for this car, dont even try... u can go standalone or convert to odb1 and have lots of options.

u can probably roll 8psi around 200whp if properly tuned, which SAFC and BTM wouldnt qualify as properly tuned. :(

sean has proved these motors to hold a lot of power if tuned really well, but u will have a hard time replicating his EMS. :)

there is 100,000 threads on turbo on this forum. do some research, and then come back and ask ur questions.

but a SR-T25 is probably a good size of turbo for an a20 IMO

Bglad420
12-20-2005, 08:09 PM
u will need an SACF and something to pull timing.

u can probably roll 8psi around 200whp if properly tuned, which SAFC and BTM wouldnt qualify as properly tuned.

Whats an SACF and BTM???? I don't want to tear down the motor for any of this, So my internals should be good enough to 200ish HP?? What Fuel pressure regulators are good for our cars, any direct bolt on kits?? I'm a real stickler when it comes to quality, I only buy Honda parts from Honda for my car, even the plugs. Know anyone with a turbo A20, that I can talk to? Another question, The cross member under our cars, is it hard to get in the O2 housing, or downpipe? And what about the dual O2's? Do they create a problem at all?

AccordEpicenter
12-20-2005, 08:24 PM
oh man... hmm what do you think guys, do i need to get involved in this thread?

Swap_File
12-20-2005, 08:26 PM
When going the turbo route, proper fuel and ignition timing management is very important. You will probably want to do the OBD-1 upgrade first, before installing the turbo. This is covered in this thread: http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=18160

Then chip the ECU, install bigger injectors, and start working on your turbo setup.

bobafett
12-20-2005, 09:04 PM
man just forget about going turbo for now...

u will blow ur motor for sure. :(

gfrg88
12-20-2005, 09:08 PM
IMO i really dont think YOU should be turboing this car at all?? what do you guys think?? sorry if im coming out as an ass but i just think you need to do some more research on here first....

Bglad420
12-20-2005, 09:51 PM
Sorry for asking the same questions, but the search just leaves me confused. I'm not looking at anything radical, I'm just looking for a little more umph. I have all the stuff to do it as far as turbo, intercooler, piping, BOV, etc, all I'd have to make is the manifold, o2 housing and downpipe. What mods were done to your turbo cars before you turboed them, I read on a couple threads that people had turboed an A20 stock and its been fine...How long will it last with 8psi of boost?:uh:
What about 4g map and trottle bodies are their 2 kinds.

What is all needed for obd-1 swap, what will need to be done to tune it in? Thanks

w00tw00t111
12-20-2005, 11:44 PM
I don't mean to be a jerk but...there is a thing called an FAQ listed on 3geez home page.
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37169
that's where that link came from. It should honestly answer all questions pertaining to turbocharging the accord. Also, look at other peoples projects if there are still some unanswered questions. For the OBD-1 swap the link was given up above and for tuning information go to PGMFI.org and just start reading. If there are still unanswered questions about turbo-ing check out homemadeturbo.com. That should help quite a bit in regards to home-brew things seeing as though there isn't a "kit" for the 3g. Again, not meaning to sound like a pompous jerk but, please take my advice and search just a tic before posting because it'll honestly save you alot of trouble. :)

Bglad420
12-21-2005, 12:45 AM
I look at those pages, but sometimes I have questions that I cant find the answers to, and I just need a bit more, or specific info sorry for asking questions bud.

bobafett
12-21-2005, 07:01 AM
the problem is, your asking questions that cant really be answered.

with a perfect tune, im willing to bet that a stock a20 could hold 400 whp. with a PERFECT TUNE. u could blow your motor to hell with 4 psi if you do it wrong. it could last longer than you do, it could last 300 miles.

we dont know the condition of your current motor, we dont know how u maintained it. we dont know if it has been jbwelded together and boost will destroy it instantly, or if its a 50,000 mile replacement motor.

questions that we can, and have answered, are about the parts we reccomend to use. but honestly, how the hell could we tell u how long a stock unknown condition a20 will last at 8psi. is that 8psi un interecooled? do u have 94 octane, 92, 91? how do u drive the car? do you road road, auto-x, drag race? is it your daily driver? how good are u with maintenence? turbo cars as a rule should be kept a much closer eye on.... u cant skimp on routine maintenance.

i will say for the sake of answering your question, that when you 'bolt on' your buddies 240 parts, that your motor lasts 2 weeks at 8psi. :( if u assume its gonna last 50,000 miles ur crazy... we have no idea...

however, props for being a noob who wants to turbo instead of get the new raging body kit on there... ur headed in the right direction, and theres no reason u cant pull off a sweet turbo setup, but it takes time and a hell of a lot of research. :)

good luck to you

Bglad420
12-21-2005, 11:12 AM
I know quite abit out turbos and such I understand all this stuff on what I need, I plan to build another motor for the car, for when and if it blows up the car has 120K all maintence records, it was a grandma car, and the motor hasn't ever been replaced. I just am curious is all and the search really doesn't help me cuz everyone gets off topic, and you cant find any information with out hours, and hours of searching. (I must admit 3g search works the best though)

Bglad420
12-21-2005, 11:28 AM
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37169

Horrible....no help, Just tell me what I need for the OBD1 conversion....I'll start here and then move to the fuel system...So for now what is the best ECU to use for 200-220hp turbocharged on an A20, and easiest to wire in? what about dizzy does this need to be changed? or can I keep the same one with obd1? do I need a 4g or something??? Thanks

Bglad420
12-21-2005, 11:57 AM
Hey thanks for the info...I wasn't trying to be a jerk... So no recomemnded ecu's. What ecu's are the easiest to tune. Would you recomend the LS ecu? What intake manifold works best? Can I just use 4g T.B. and 4g map? Sorry but this is alot more helpful to me, because I plan on doing this project real soon, like in a couple months once I make sureI have everything I need. I just want to make sureI am taking the right steps is all. Thanks again. Is your car turboed Bobafett, what are you using if it is, what problems did you run into...and whats VSS?

bobafett
12-21-2005, 12:10 PM
my is not turboed. but if u read the threads, i have been researching and planning a build since like 2002....

i have a fully built motor that is ready for boost, that i should be finishing up in the next couple weeks. over the course of the next year i will be gathering parts to boost it. and im hoping by this time next year to be turbod.

an 'ecu' isnt easier to tune than another ecu, it depends on the software u use. and realistically, we shouldnt be tuning our own. your (and my) best bet is getting a well supported management program, like crome or uberdata and take it to a shop and have them help you dyno tune it.

as for which intake manifold works best, it depends what u are doing. if u are building an all out high rpm race motor, i would go with a victor-x manifold, but if u are just sticking with a mostly stock setup, i would go with oem b16 and just port and polish work on it. if you use b series intake, you will either need to redrill or get a differently throttle body. my aftermarket b16 manifold will not fit a a20 throttle body. i bought an aftermarket b-series throttle body to go along with it.

4g map sensor will probably not help you with an obd1 swap, i am not 100% sure. from what i have gathered u need a map sensor out of an obd1 car that mounts to the tb, but this might be because of the IM and TB that i have.

even though my car is not turboed, i can tell u what it IS going to use. :)

GT28RS disco potato turbo (or use my t3/t4, not sure which)
custom built log manifold
custom built 3" downpipe
custom built 3" mandrel bent exhuast
TiAL 38mm External wastegate
HKS SSQV BOV
custom coach 31x6x2.5in FMIC
stealthmode oil line kit
DSM 450CC or RX7 460CC injectors
AEM 300c fuel pressure regulator
Megasquirt engine management (havent done my homework on this yet)

i already have about half of this stuff, but i need some of it still... :(

the rest of the stuff, done to my motor and whatnot is already documented, so i wont go into it in this thread. basically built motor with built head and valvetrain, with reaaally big TB and aftermarket intake manifold.

shooting for 160+ whp NA, and as much as my tranny wants to take while boosted.

Accordtheory
12-21-2005, 01:48 PM
Why can't I go to the second page on this thread? wtf? I just clicked on it like 5 times and it won't do it! damn it..I just wanted to get into how little I knew when I started to turbo my car several years ago..Man, I wish someone could have told me what I know now, they would have saved me so much money and engine damage..lol..

Accordtheory
12-21-2005, 01:56 PM
realistically, we shouldnt be tuning our own.
Hey, no need for that negativity! Why not learn how to tune yourself?

obd-1 LS TB, IM, ecu, dsm 450s, stock internals+ 12 psi=220 or so whp. I think the t-25 is way too small though. It will fall off in the upper rpm ranges. An evo turbo would be a much better choice.

p.s. investigate the j&s safeguard

AccordEpicenter
12-21-2005, 02:03 PM
you need a BIG turbo with BIG BOOST...none of this t25/GT28 stuff, go BIG. Big turbos= HUGE Top End. There is nothing wrong with tuning it yourself

bobafett
12-21-2005, 02:41 PM
i totally agree you guys.. and i plan to tune my own... but im not about to make my own baseline. the reason i am getting a programmable system is so that i can play with it. but i spent thousands of dollars on this setup, and im not prepared to blow it up just cause its my first time trying to set up a turbo car with software i have never used before.

after i get a baseline setup, i plan on tweaking it and getting it perfect, but i want a solid platform to tune off of. its not like i would be blowing up a stock a20 :(

a t25 works for dsm guys with a 2.0L revving to 6500-7000. i think that for people running less than 10psi, a t25 is an economical turbo to use, and will flow well up to 6000 on an a20 head.

do u really think that a GT28RS potato is too small? its the perfect 350-400whp turbo for 2.0L SR20 motors, so i figure it will be close to the same on our a20.

GT28RS Specs:
DUAL GT STEEL BALL BEARING CENTER SECTION

TURBINE SPECS: T25
.86 A/R HOUSING
76 TRIM 54mm GT SERIES WHEEL

COMPRESSOR SPECS: TO4b HOUSING
.60 A/R HOUSING
62 TRIM

COMPRESSOR FLOW: 35 LBS/MIN


-------------------------------------------

T3/T04E 57 Trim .60/.63

COMPRESSOR SPECS:
flow: 53 lbs/min 678cfm
.60 A/R HOUSING
60 TRIM WHEEL

TURBINE SPECS:
.63 A/R HOUSING
STAGE 3 WHEEL

oil lubricated centersection.
supportable of 500whp!

-------------------------------------------

what turbo do u suggest to perform reasonable in both 12psi street to 20psi track range? keeping in mind the motor will rev to 8000. too bad i didnt have the head flow benched to see what it could do. :(

im beginning to think more and more that my t3/t4 that i already own would be a good choice. :)

AccordEpicenter
12-21-2005, 02:59 PM
That GT28RS will work just fine but i think its gonna pull WAY harder top end with a T3/T4 due to a bigger turbine at the expense of a little lag. That GT28RS doesnt lag. Ever

bobafett
12-21-2005, 03:10 PM
:D yeah we will see... i got plenty of time to get my other stuff together, i will just save the turbo/manifold/downpipe for very last. it'll give me plenty of time to think about it. the hard pull of a t3/t4 seems a heck of a lot more fun... i like drag racing better than other types of racing, but a disco potato would keep lag down, which would make autox a lot more practical. meh, i will take it one step at a time.

Bglad420
12-21-2005, 05:07 PM
OK heres the scenerio, I put a turbo, BOV, intercooler, 2" charge pipes on my car, no other mods, no ecu, injectors, or anything else. Whats gonna happen?

gfrg88
12-21-2005, 08:03 PM
KABOOM :D
you need atleast a fuel pressure regulator, 450cc injectors, if you want to turbo a complety stock engine look at accordepicenters post with his set up
look at his threads here (http://3geez.com/search.php?do=process&showposts=0&starteronly=1&exactname=1&searchuser=AccordEpicenter)

gfrg88
12-21-2005, 08:04 PM
oh and dont forget that his car isnt a daily driver so dont go out and try his set up on your daily driver....

Accordtheory
12-21-2005, 08:46 PM
OK heres the scenerio, I put a turbo, BOV, intercooler, 2" charge pipes on my car, no other mods, no ecu, injectors, or anything else. Whats gonna happen?

Your check engine light will come on, (map sensor), your engine will go lean and knock, your egt will go up to like 1600, and you will destroy your pistons.
...and you will feel Very, very stupid.

A speed density system that is set up for a normally aspirated car has no way of adding fuel under boost. It merely assumes there is an electrical problem with the map sensor, goes into limp mode, and meters fuel off the tps.

Accordtheory
12-21-2005, 08:52 PM
a t25 works for dsm guys with a 2.0L revving to 6500-7000. i think that for people running less than 10psi, a t25 is an economical turbo to use, and will flow well up to 6000 on an a20 head.

do u really think that a GT28RS potato is too small? its the perfect 350-400whp turbo for 2.0L SR20 motors, so i figure it will be close to the same on our a20.

GT28RS Specs:
DUAL GT STEEL BALL BEARING CENTER SECTION

TURBINE SPECS: T25
.86 A/R HOUSING
76 TRIM 54mm GT SERIES WHEEL

COMPRESSOR SPECS: TO4b HOUSING
.60 A/R HOUSING
62 TRIM

COMPRESSOR FLOW: 35 LBS/MIN


-------------------------------------------

T3/T04E 57 Trim .60/.63

COMPRESSOR SPECS:
flow: 53 lbs/min 678cfm
.60 A/R HOUSING
60 TRIM WHEEL

TURBINE SPECS:
.63 A/R HOUSING
STAGE 3 WHEEL

oil lubricated centersection.
supportable of 500whp!

-------------------------------------------

what turbo do u suggest to perform reasonable in both 12psi street to 20psi track range? keeping in mind the motor will rev to 8000. too bad i didnt have the head flow benched to see what it could do. :(

im beginning to think more and more that my t3/t4 that i already own would be a good choice. :)

I don't know shit about selecting a turbo. All I know is that just about any holset turbo off a dodge cummins diesel would absolutely kick ass on a honda. Only recently did garrett copy their 'map width enhancement' slots into the compressor, holsets have the most modern designs and are ridiculously efficient over a very wide range of airflow and pressure ratios.

Bglad420
12-21-2005, 08:56 PM
Thank you thats what I wanted...Can I turbo my A20 with out an ecu mod?? I really want to get this project rolling...I plan to build a new block and head, but I want to keep it reliable, and cruise at 6-8psi and hadle 12psi if I want to race or something. Will stock internals hold that like pistons, and rods and crank whats the weak link in our cars? What is recomended I do with the head should I just port and polish it? How indepth is the 4g dizzy swap, how hard is it, whats all really involved the treads I read were deadends, I want someone who has a turbo A20 to post and tell me what problems they ran into with their turbo projects and what I have to expect...Sorry if all this is repeat of others before me. Thanks for the help all!

gfrg88
12-21-2005, 09:29 PM
isnt justin86 making turbo kits, and obd1 kits?? try talking to him, hell help you out...

Bglad420
12-22-2005, 12:22 PM
Accordepicenter, what did you do to your car before you turboed it, what problems did you run into with check engine light, or anything weird, I see you run a 3g dizzy, no OBD-1 conversion?? Post what your oppinion is on all this, cause your cars pretty fast, and Thats all I'm shooting for is low 14 high 13sec 1/4 times. Thanks

bobafett
12-22-2005, 01:24 PM
his setup is well documented. just FREAKIN SEARCH

his fuel management is SAFC and i think BTM, and dsm 450cc's he made his own manifold and downpipe and charge pipes, and hes using a classic cca or johnny racecar fmic.

man just do a liiiitle bit of your own damn research, it will go a long ways.
http://www.sounddomain.com/ride/250993/4

AccordEpicenter
12-22-2005, 02:53 PM
http://www.sounddomain.com/ride/250993/5

Lol i think this is a better page. Anyway... yea I use a BTM and an SAFC and 450ccs and a walbro fuel pump, but as ive said before, the SAFC is just inadequate for over 10psi boost and ill go so far as to consider it halfass managemant for high boost, and you should never skimp on managemant. Ive run 13psi boost on a very very very conservative tune (read:Shitty) but next season im gonna run an obd1 conversion with a chipped P06 ecu. This is on a STOCK ENGINE too. Run crappy managemant or a crappy tune even on a BUILT engine and it simply wont last... there have been quite a few guys that have blown their engines going turbo because of it

Bglad420
12-22-2005, 11:44 PM
AccordEpicenter, When you say stock engine, is it the same engine that was in the car, never pulled or rebuilt?? How many miles, Do you have more indepth threads on your set up? Thanks again

AccordEpicenter
12-23-2005, 05:38 AM
Look up STOCK in the dictionary lol. Hmm... ill look for a better thread about it later

Bglad420
12-24-2005, 12:02 PM
AccordEpicenter....I searched your threads looking for info but it came back sorta dry. What model number are your BTM and SAFC that you use?? I only want 10psi max really so I should be OK w/o an OBD conversion right?? I want to keep my car a daily driver will this turbo set-up spell disaster for that, or will I end up w/ a weekend warrior?? I can get my buddys old injectors from his DSM so I'm not worried about those, but what rate fuel pump do you use? What else do you recomend that I look into? What else do I need to make it all work ie:fuel & timimng management. I'm gonna try to pick some of this stuff up this month. Thanks again!:sad2: :uh:

A20A1
12-24-2005, 12:17 PM
Horrible....no help, Just tell me what I need for the OBD1 conversion....I'll start here and then move to the fuel system...So for now what is the best ECU to use for 200-220hp turbocharged on an A20, and easiest to wire in? what about dizzy does this need to be changed? or can I keep the same one with obd1? do I need a 4g or something??? Thanks



http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37169


In the link he gave you was another series of links to 4G applicable parts and how to go about installing them on the A20. Before you say "no help" look through the thread. If you did you would have seen the links.


http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37494&page=6

that thread will also help.