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Soundy
01-25-2006, 10:08 AM
Okay, this is really starting to bug me... this is the third '87 in a row now that's had this problem.

My first one was running great, really peppy, until I had a "fuel system service" done, and after that it seemed sluggish. Both of the subsequent cars have had the same issue: sometimes they're just "oomph-less" - bog down off the line, punching the gas accelerates only slowly, and pushing the clutch in for an upshift results in an immediate feeling of deceleration, almost as if something was dragging.

And then for no apparent reason, often after idling for a couple minutes, like at a long stop light, the power is just there - sharp off the line, hitting the gas at cruise puts you back in the seat at just about any speed/RPM, and it keeps coasting smoothly when the clutch is lowered.

I'd almost suspect a fuel delivery or ignition timing issue if it weren't for that "dragging" issue. I don't think it's the brakes; if they were sticking that badly they should be heating up as well, and they're not.

Anyone got any thoughts? Oh yeah, all three are carbed models... first had P/S and A/C, second had P/S and no A/C, latest one has neither...

Cant Stop
01-25-2006, 01:09 PM
and what kind of service was it exactly?
check your choke make sure it is not sticking and check your vacuum lines
crooked shops are known for unplugging stuff so you haveto come back for more wotk so check the system make sure nothing is sticking smoothering the motor also how much fuel is in the float ,look on the sid eand se if it is inbetween the metal pointer type plate too full bad too low bad
after idling sounds like warm up circuit is not functioning properly

Lester Lugnut
01-25-2006, 01:35 PM
I assume you have a carb-equipped Accord.

If you live in a humid and cold place, you may be dealing with "carb icing".
I'm not talking North Dakota cold, I mean temps in the 30s-40s, even low 50s and very damp.

This happens if your intake system isn't getting heated air from the hose that goes from the exhaust to the air intake. A plate just in front of this connection closes off cold intake air at start-up until things warm up. This time of year, cold/damp air can cause this if the intake air isn't being warmed up at start-up.

When you start the car up 1st thing in the morning, look into the intake air feed and see if the plate is being pulled up to close off cold intake air.

The part that pulls the plate up is #18 at the following URL:

http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1987&TrimLevel=4DR+LX&TransLevel=4ATKA&Section=E&Category=B++01++%7CAIR+CLEANER+%28CARB%2E%29&Doors=4&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true

Soundy
01-25-2006, 03:18 PM
and what kind of service was it exactly?[quote]

As I recall, they disconnected a couple vacuum lines and hooked something else inline to force something through the system... but this was about 8 years and 3 cars ago.

[quote]check your choke make sure it is not sticking and check your vacuum lines

They're all fine, and again, this has been the case on three different cars now.


crooked shops are known for unplugging stuff so you haveto come back for more wotk so check the system make sure nothing is sticking

This was a Mr. Lube (quick-lube joint)... they don't do mechanical repairs so they'd have no incentive to rig a car that way.

Soundy
01-25-2006, 03:23 PM
I assume you have a carb-equipped Accord.

No assumption necessary, I stated as much in my original post.


If you live in a humid and cold place, you may be dealing with "carb icing".

It rarely gets below freezing in Vancouver, and this happens any time of year. Hot or cold make no difference; wet or dry appears to make no difference. If anything it seems to be LESS a problem when it's colder.


This happens if your intake system isn't getting heated air from the hose that goes from the exhaust to the air intake. A plate just in front of this connection closes off cold intake air at start-up until things warm up. This time of year, cold/damp air can cause this if the intake air isn't being warmed up at start-up.

I can drive around for hours and have it running "sluggish", and then after sitting at a light or even parking and turning it off for two minutes, have it "come back to life" for a while... sometimes the rest of the day, sometimes just until the next time I shut it off.


When you start the car up 1st thing in the morning, look into the intake air feed and see if the plate is being pulled up to close off cold intake air.

On this car, the warm air intake is disconnected and the breather lid flipped for better breathing. On the others, I couldn't say. But it wouldn't be a factor for more than the first few minutes.

And none of this explains the "dragging" I get when depressing the clutch.

Ronin007
01-26-2006, 05:26 PM
Soundy - I am having a similar issue with my 1989 Accord LX. The car has been through all the usual fixes (tune-up items, fuel filters, vacuum lines checked, carb adjustments checked, etc.) and nothing has solved my problem. Like you it is not carb icing due to mine will do it in the summer time too. No set pattern and will run great for months and then it will lose power like you discribed. Most of the time turning off the car for 5-10 minutes and then starting it up again it will run fine. And yes it is really annoying!!:rant:

Soundy
01-26-2006, 05:34 PM
Okay, nice to know I'm not alone in this. Best suggestion I've heard so far is to check the brakes for overheating, since as I've said, when it's behaving this way, it also experiences a sharp deceleration when depressing the clutch, especially when upshifting under acceleration... like something is slowing the car down when power is not being applied. I've looked at brakes as a possible culprit before (particularly a sticky parking brake) but the amount of power it's robbing, I'd think the brakes would have to be getting red-hot if they were dragging that much.

Ronin007
01-26-2006, 05:49 PM
It is not a brake issue in my case and I don't have the dragging issue like you discribe. Just the sudden loss of power. Doesn't matter what you do it will continue to loss power until you have to pull over. Mine is an auto and I have looked at that to see if it was a trans issue, but have ruled that out. Mine just runs like crap and acts like it a rich condition as you can smell gas. Once you turn it off, let it sit for 5-10 minutes, and then start it up again it will most of the time fix it self. Very strange and intermittant like your problem.

Cant Stop
01-26-2006, 06:05 PM
a20a1 should know
all i can think of is a failing fuel pump sludged up screen on it.
as for the over rich type condition at a loss

voiceinurhead05
01-26-2006, 06:20 PM
I'm going to try and answer to this clutch "dragging" problem. This may be a long shot, but it's possible that your flywheel is warped. It's also possible that your throwout bearings and your pressure plate are going bad. Do you ride the clutch? If so... STOP! Riding the clutch rather than downshifting is one of the worst things ever for your clutch (besides lettting someone learn to drive a stick with your car).

Ronin007
02-23-2006, 06:44 AM
Soundy - Any luck??? My Accord has not done it since my last post in this thread, but I would like to get my power loss issue resolved too. I know it will be coming.:rant:

VTEC_Inside
02-23-2006, 07:26 AM
I just solved my own intermittent power loss issue.

First I would be driving along and the car would just lose power altogether. It would also stall at least once after starting on cold mornings. I changed the fuel filters and eventually the fuel pump and this issue dissapeared.

Ronin007, your description sounds like exactly what was happening to me. I'd try my next suggestion first before replacing the fuel pump, as I'm certain that I could have gotten away without changing it in retrospect.

Somewhere in there it developed a hesitaion issue. I'd be driving along for 15min then all of sudden the car would start to hesitate mildly. If I floored it, it would take off, try and cruise and stumble city. This ended up being one of the cheapest fixes as it was a faulty PCV valve that was leaking excessive vacuum.

Ronin007
02-23-2006, 08:35 AM
VTEC_Inside - Yes I have been following your thread too to see if anything would be related. Mine is very strange in that it run fine for months and then acts up. It might act up only once or twice and then then go into submission again. I will have to check my records as I think I might have replaced the fuel pump aready too, but I am not positive. Do you really think that would be the issue if it runs fine for 6-8 months with no power loss??? Mine does not display any of the stalling or hesitation like your vehicle. It will just suddenly lose power and there is nothing you can do to get it back except to shut it off for 5-10 minutes. Once you start it back up most of the time the car will act like nothing happened. Full power and it might not rear it's ugly head for another 6-8 months. Maybe I should try changing my PCV valve again as those are cheap. I still question the smell of gas when it does it. Kind of like it is running really rich and flooding the carb. Any other suggestions???

Soundy
02-23-2006, 02:37 PM
Mine's been pretty good lately, not too "draggy" most of the time. Got other issues to worry about right now though: alternator not working again (weird one there, the charge light only comes on below 2500 rpm and the choke heater seems to be working, but there's no charging voltage), exhaust fully kacked (getting that redone this weekend, 2" piping, new cat and Magnaflow street muffler!), and left-rear spring broken (set of coilovers with the next paycheck, I guess).

THEN I can get back to tracking the power problem... :)

VTEC_Inside
02-23-2006, 08:02 PM
VTEC_Inside - Yes I have been following your thread too to see if anything would be related. Mine is very strange in that it run fine for months and then acts up. It might act up only once or twice and then then go into submission again. I will have to check my records as I think I might have replaced the fuel pump aready too, but I am not positive. Do you really think that would be the issue if it runs fine for 6-8 months with no power loss??? Mine does not display any of the stalling or hesitation like your vehicle. It will just suddenly lose power and there is nothing you can do to get it back except to shut it off for 5-10 minutes. Once you start it back up most of the time the car will act like nothing happened. Full power and it might not rear it's ugly head for another 6-8 months. Maybe I should try changing my PCV valve again as those are cheap. I still question the smell of gas when it does it. Kind of like it is running really rich and flooding the carb. Any other suggestions???

Hmm, when you say it hasn't acted up for some time, is there a connection to outside temperature?

Have you also replaced your fuel filters if you've done the pump?

To clarify, mine never stalled right out in all of my experiences. It ran very poorly and the idle was chuggy and very low, but never actually died.

I also noted the smell of gas a couple times when my car was acting up, it kinda freaked me out because I thought that maybe I screwed up changing the rear filter and it was leaking. There was a suggestion that the evap canister could be to blame.

Like you said, the PCV is cheap and easy to change. Make sure you get it from Honda though. The one that was causing me grief was actually fairly new, but aftermarket.

Just keep thinking of how good it will be when you figure it out. I know I was just about ready to park mine and get snow tires for my RSX, I had just about had it.

Ronin007
02-24-2006, 06:13 PM
Ok guys I looked up what I have done to the Honda all within the last 2 year:

Replaced fuel pump and filters.
Replaced spark plugs, cap, and wires.
Checked all vacuum lines, belts, hoses, and fluids replacing anything that needed replacing or was questionable.
Adjusted carb, timing, and replace PCV valve.

The power loss issue has occurred during every season, different temperatures, day or night, rain or shine, at different speeds, and with no consistent timing (once it happened twice in one day another time it did it only once and didn't do it again for over 8 months).

I will have to check the evap canister like you mentioned and I will check to see if the PCV valve that I used was a Honda or not. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Yes VTEC_Inside I would like to get this figured out. It is very strange and frustrating.

Whistler225
04-04-2006, 03:55 PM
VTech: I know about the problem you're talking about. this is different I think. I had it for the first time today (though I've also had the one you're talking about). I left work this afternoon, cold and rainy (about 40 degrees out), and started uphill out of my workplace. I was shocked when my car absolutely refused to accelerate up the hill. I put my foot down, and the car kicked down a gear, but went absolutely nowhere. RPMs were still smooth and correct, but the car just didn't GO. The further up the hill I went, the worse it got. It was like the parking brake was locked on (I checked it several times: it wasn't) and I was trying to drive through it. Got to a flat spot, let the tranny shift up into 3rd, and it rolled down the street. Still had no giddy-up if I pressed on the gas, but at least I was moving. About ten minutes later, I came to a stop light and sat there wondering if I was going to have to replace my tranny. When I took off from the light, suddenly the car was back to normal. It took off down the road like nothing had ever happened. I swear, I think I even heard the car chuckling at me as I stomped the gas, activated in the secondary, and felt the car launch itself (ok, launch might be a bit strong for a stock LX auto, but compared to what it was doing, it felt like I was on a space shuttle) from 40 to about 65 in a matter of about 2 seconds.

This is by far the strangest thing I have ever seen a car do. If anyone on here knows what causes this problem, PLEASE let us know, so we can fix it. I don't want it to happen again if I can help it, and I'm sure these other guys would like to avoid it as well.

Soundy
04-04-2006, 05:15 PM
Yup, mine's been better lately, but still up to the same tricks - it'll be great in the morning, then gradually lose its 'pep', then once in a while - not every time - after stopping and idling a bit (like at a light), it'll snap my neck back on takeoff... but after a bit it'll be sluggish again.

I recently took the carb hat off, made sure everything was cleaned out nicely (it was VERY clean, BTW, like it had just been rebuilt fairly recently - I've only had it for a year now), checked and tweaked the float level, turned down the idle a bit, checked and cleaned the plugs (they seemed a bit white, like it's running too lean..?), replaced a bad vacuum hose (little short one that comes off the carb hat right by the acceleration pump, old one was split and collapsed), and replaced the secondary fuel filter... no real change. It seemed a BIT better for a while, but soon was back to the same old behaviour.

Whistler225
04-04-2006, 05:23 PM
Soundy: have you noticed anything at all consistent about when your car does this? For instance, does it happen more going uphill, or after letting the car sit for a few hours (like, when you leave work)? Maybe if we can pin down the conditions under which it happens, it will help us figure out what's causing it.

VTEC_Inside
04-04-2006, 05:38 PM
Mine has been fine more or less since changing the PCV valve. It had a relapse one day shortly after, but has been fine since.

I have another issue now that I believe maybe ignition related. The idle is a little rough at times, but not glaringly bad. It runs fine other than that and the fact that the revs hang sometimes as I shift. Not if I floor it, but if I am on it a little at lower rpms.

I just discovered that the drivers side rear corner of the trunk has rotted away too. Sigh, I'm getting tired of this, but I still love the car.

Whistler225
04-04-2006, 05:55 PM
yeah, I bought mine for 100 bucks, and it has little spots everywhere that need fixed. Once I get all the drivetrain issues ironed out, the car's appearance will be next. I was thinking of putting on a Prelude wing and painting the car black from the trim down with a winter-coat since I live in NH....other than that, I was considering lowering the car about 1.5".....I think it would make it look a bit sportier, but in a subtle way.

First I gotta get the idle squared away. I have it steadied at 2k in park and 1k in gear, but can't seem to get it down any further and can't get the high idle to kick in when I start it in the morning. I have to sit there and keep my foot on the gas for about 5 minutes before it will even idle without stalling, until it gets warmed up a little. Everyone talks about adjusting the high idle screw, but I just can't seem to find mine.

VTEC_Inside
04-04-2006, 10:52 PM
The high idle screw is a tricky little bugger to get to. You pretty much have to remove the air cleaner assembly to see it.

Its on the firewall side of the throttle linkage.

I suspect you may have choke issues if it won't idle cold though. I had the same problem for a little while.

Whistler225
04-05-2006, 02:56 AM
well, it idles......kinda. It did have choke issues when I first got it (choke was stuck shut), but I fixed that....as far as I can tell the choke is closed when I first start the car and it does open as the car warms up. I just don't think the high idle is working.

The high idle screw....your location is on a carb, or tb? I have the carb.

Soundy
04-05-2006, 06:13 AM
Soundy: have you noticed anything at all consistent about when your car does this? For instance, does it happen more going uphill, or after letting the car sit for a few hours (like, when you leave work)? Maybe if we can pin down the conditions under which it happens, it will help us figure out what's causing it.

Ugh, I thought I posted a reply to this yesterday... dunno where it went.

Anyway, I've had a similar issue with three different carb'd LX's in a row now, and never been able to pin down a pattern to it, other than, it seems to consistantly be okay first thing in the morning (after it warms up), and SOMETIMES it will get its "pep" back for a little while after sitting at a long stop light... low float level, maybe?

Ronin007
04-05-2006, 09:55 AM
I will probably jink myself by saying this, but my car has been fine lately. No real issue other than it is rotting away like what VTEC_Inside and Whistler225 reported. Mine is just the family beater that my son drives most of the time (I know, the biggest mistake). I just worry that my power loss will show up again. It has been over 6 months since it last acted up so unfortunately I think I am due. The more I read all of your posts I think my issue is a different problem. That is why it is so frustrating.

In my situation there is nothing consistent as to what season, time of day, temperature, location of driving, speed of driving, etc. The only consistent thing is it loses power and there is nothing you can do to fix it but to pull over, turn it off, let it sit for 5-10 minutes, and then it is normally fine. The only thing that I can add is when you pull it over it is running terrible. It is chugging, has a poor idle, poor throttle response, and the smell of gas (rich condition??). I just can’t figure this one out.:huh: :help:

Soundy
04-05-2006, 10:01 AM
Mine never loses power that badly... it's just missing that sharp off-the-line "pep". When it's running right, punching the gas even when cruising along will cnap your neck back (and it's a standard, so we're not talking about auto-tranny kickdown). Unfortunately most of the time if just doesn't have that - it's fast enough, but not really "quick".

Actually, I DID have one that would lose power and die like you described: anytime I'd take a hard left turn, it would sputter and die and have to sit for 5-10 minutes before it would start. Turned out there was sludge in the float bowl and anytime I cornered hard left, it would slop over and get sucked into the jet intakes - not small enough to go through and seriously clog the jets, just big enough to block the intakes temporarily (I guess until the vacuum subsided and let the crud fall away).

Might be worth popping your carb open and cleaning it out, it's a fairly simple operation (I believe there's a sticky on it in the Carb Tech forum).

Ronin007
04-05-2006, 10:16 AM
Hummmm...thanks Soundy. Something else to look at. I have considered tearing apart the carb and rebuilding it, but it will piss me off if I go through all of that and nothing changes.

Soundy
04-05-2006, 10:31 AM
A rebuild is a major chore, especially since just getting the carb off the manifold is such a PITA, but popping the hat off and cleaning out the float bowl (and blasting out the jets and passages with some compressed air) is relatively straightforward: remove the seven (I think) screws holding it down, including the one between the barrels, and disconnect the connecting rods for the choke and acceleration pump (just a couple small cotter pins to pull out).... unplug the one vacuum hose and fuel line (open the fuel filler cap first to release any pressure!), and lift the hat off. Use some rags to soak up the fuel in the float bowl, and you're in business. Probably a good idea to have a piece of spare gasket material in case you need to make a new one (I think there's also a template for that in another thread; I've been unable to find one pre-made). It's a half-hour job, tops :)

Pics A20A1 posted are here
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350

Ronin007
04-05-2006, 10:48 AM
Thanks Soundy for the how-to. I will add that to my list of vehicle projects for this summer. Everything is sort of in the air right now as I am trying to decide if I am going to continue to wheel my Rover or not. Depending on if I get a different wheeling rig or not will sort of dictate which vehicle gets my attention first. You know how that goes!!;)

Cant Stop
04-05-2006, 01:05 PM
ya pulling off the carb with all the noodles attached is a pain but the rebuild itself is really easy, now i think i need a new fuel pump mine is a bit weak loses power around corners so a pump may be next for me . it took me about an hour to rebuild mine , just make sure you buy plenty of replacement hose when you rebuild cuz those vac lines break real easy.

Cant Stop
04-05-2006, 01:09 PM
First I gotta get the idle squared away. I have it steadied at 2k in park and 1k in gear, but can't seem to get it down any further .
sounds like too much vacuum i had mine apart and forgot to hook a vac line back up and it would high idle real bad , actually i think my pvc line was broke that time so check for "open "vacuum lines whistler

Whistler225
04-05-2006, 05:43 PM
Cant Stop: I didn't even think to check the PCV line....I'll do that this weekend. I assume it's easier to get at from under the car? certainly can't get to it from above.....the intake is in the way.

Cant Stop
04-05-2006, 06:17 PM
actually tou can access it from the top if you are
carbed it is between the carb and engine on top of the intake it is that u shaped hose , small.
type in the address in my sig say yes to valid url and check out my pic's i took my intake off not too long ago
i would keep the choke and the carb warm up feature if i could do it over , i may still put those back but need a intake since i modded the old one.

Whistler225
04-06-2006, 01:34 PM
oh.....sorry, thought you were referring to the hose the PCV seats in.....the hose coming off the top of it is fine.....I checked it when I replaced the PCV...I think my vacuum leak might be a faulty air door motor.

Soundy
04-06-2006, 09:58 PM
Welp.... I gave the engine a good shampooing yesterday, and changed the air filter... and HOLY CRAP, she's suddenly got her groove back! Lotsa spunk all up and down the tach, still slacks off a little now and then, but for the most part it's GO GO GO.

Now I've changed the air filter before with no appreciable improvement like this... I've even tried running without it. If anything the plugs looked like they were burning a too-lean mix when I checked them a few days ago, so I don't think it was air starvation. The shampooing musta cleared up some crud in a bad spot or something, I dunno, but MAN what a difference!

I gave'er an oil change as well today, and tweaked up the float level and idle a bit more... she still sputters a little when decelerating under engine compression, and when holding the gas at that just-below-cruising, slowing-down-ever-so-gradually point - gotta try and sort that out next.

Soundy
04-07-2006, 03:41 PM
Ugh, if it ain't one freakin' thing, it's always another... left for work this morning, all running nicely... got to the first stoplight and the idle dropped down and almost died. The rest of the day it's been misfiring horribly, hard to start, and belching black smoke under deceleration... under hard acceleration and at a fast idle (holding the pedal to 1500 rpm and up) it's smooth, but at cruising or regular idle it sputters like crazy.

I pulled all the plugs out and all were covered in black soot, like all the cylinders were flooding, so it's likely not one plug or spark line. Could be the main spark lead or coil, I guess, or the distributor main terminal... frak, and I was gonna go for emissions test this weekend (insurance is up in a week, gotte get it passed!)

Anyone got any other suggestions?

Whistler225
04-07-2006, 05:39 PM
Soundy: stupid question on my part: did you check your choke? That's exactly what my car was doing when I first picked it up, and the choke was stuck shut. That makes the car run really rich (hence the black smoke and plugs), and idle like crap (you would have to floor it to get it to start).

Soundy
04-07-2006, 06:08 PM
I didn't specifically look at the choke, but I did pull the breather to dial the float back down a bit, and didn't notice that the choke looked like it was closed.

Soundy
04-07-2006, 09:18 PM
Well this car is just a freakin' enigma.

I checked the choke, it's opening properly, no problem there.

Decided to try swapping in the set of spark wires from my old car, they're silicones of some brand I don't recall rather than the Autolites that were in there and showing some wear here and there. Pulled the wire out of the coil... eeeeewwww, that could well be part of the problem, all the corrosion and crud on there! Did a good cleanup of the coil terminal and put a healthy dose of dielectric grease on all connections with the new wires and fired it up...

Ran nice and smooth, figured I'd found the problem, although once when it stalled earlier and I restarted it, the belch of rich exhaust smelled suspiciously like that smell you get when there's water in the gas... so I trucked down to Home Depot to get some methyl hydrate, about a 5-minute drive. No more missing and sputtering and bucking, but my "pep" seemed to be missing again :(

Got some "gas treatment" (they didn't have any pure methyl)... debated drooling on the customer service girl (wowzers)... by the time I was almost home again, the missing/sputtering had partially returned as well, although not as bad as before.

This is really starting to annoy me now...

w261w261
04-08-2006, 04:17 AM
Judging from the comments of various people here, this might be a problem that has afflicted many carbed Accords. How about going down to a Honda dealer, asking who's the guy they give the old cars to (hopefully one that's been around for 20 years or so), and tell him about your problem. Maybe he's seen it before.

A20A1
04-08-2006, 04:53 AM
Missed this thread... so whats the latest.

I read the first bit, not sure what would cause you to slow down so much when you let off the gas and press in the clutch.

What about oil in the trans and in the engine... what wieght are they and are they new?

Have you checked the boosters? Though usually they cause problems when accelerating and not when you let off the gas.

Have you checked the gaskets for the intake manifold.

Usually when you let off the gas vacuum raises sharply and you should be back on the idle circuit, so if you're running lean at idle or have a vacuum leak you'll run lean.

Could be a timing issue... might want to go over them and see where it stands both with and without vacuum advance... and maybe check the valve timing.

Did someone say they needed the gasket for the top portion of the carb?
I printed it out onto thin brown gasket material, and it seemed to fit alright... I used the hole puncher to get clean holes for the screws and jets.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=481039&postcount=8

Whistler225
04-08-2006, 06:16 AM
A20A: Actually, the original problem we were discussing (I think....lol) was that our cars were gutless when we were in the gas. I know that was the case for me.... The engine ran the way it should (smooth rpm), the transmission downshifted the way it's supposed to and the rpms went up, but the car just didn't really go anywhere. I ended up in the breakdown lane going up this hill at 20mph with my flashers going because I couldn't get the car to go any faster. No missing or sputtering, but no giddy-up either. Felt like driving through the parking brake. LostforAwhile said it sounded like carb icing, and after checking my air door while the car was warming up the other day, I think I agree with him. my door doesn't close....I think my air door motor isn't holding vacuum, so that probably is contributing to my unpredictable idle condition as well. The car hasn't done it since then, but I have been giving the car time to warm up a little better before leaving since then as well.

Going to try replacing that air door motor and make sure the vacuum line feeding it is intact. Other than that, I can't really do anything other than wait for it to happen again.

Soundy
04-08-2006, 07:28 AM
Interesting idea, I may just have to try that... :)

A20A1
04-08-2006, 11:14 AM
A20A: Actually, the original problem we were discussing (I think....lol) was that our cars were gutless when we were in the gas. I know that was the case for me.... The engine ran the way it should (smooth rpm), the transmission downshifted the way it's supposed to and the rpms went up, but the car just didn't really go anywhere. I ended up in the breakdown lane going up this hill at 20mph with my flashers going because I couldn't get the car to go any faster. No missing or sputtering, but no giddy-up either. Felt like driving through the parking brake. LostforAwhile said it sounded like carb icing, and after checking my air door while the car was warming up the other day, I think I agree with him. my door doesn't close....I think my air door motor isn't holding vacuum, so that probably is contributing to my unpredictable idle condition as well. The car hasn't done it since then, but I have been giving the car time to warm up a little better before leaving since then as well.
Going to try replacing that air door motor and make sure the vacuum line feeding it is intact. Other than that, I can't really do anything other than wait for it to happen again.

Either the diaphragm isn't holding vacuum
A vacuum line is leaking
The check valve is Faulty
or the air bleed valve isn't working right.

You can test pretty much all of them with a hand vacuum pump to see if they need replacing. or you can use your own car as the vacuum pump. just remember to put things back the way they were after the test.

Take the #8 vacuum line that ran under the air cleaner, disconnect it from the check valve (under the air cleaner) and disconnect it from the metal vacuum line (near the carb) and replace it with a longer ID 5/32" diameter vacuum line. From the metal hard line connect the new vacuum line directly to the hot air door to see if it holds vacuum and does in fact open.
You can plug vacuum hard line port #33 which will allow you to remove the air cleaner off the carb and still keep the car running... as long as #8 and #33 are not leaking vacuum. With the air cleaner free to move around, spin it to give you a better view of the hot air door. #16 , #17 and the other hoses that went to the air cleaner don't need to be plugged, just don't let the air suction hose to suck in any debris.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4524

Other test port when connecting vacuum gauge.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4554

Whistler225
04-08-2006, 02:11 PM
A20A: thanks! I will try that tomorrow. I know #33 doesn't leak....I've gone through plugging it when removing the aircleaner on prior adjustments (messing with the idle screw mostly), and if I unplug it while the car is running, it tries to die. Plug it, and the idle smooths out.

I will try connecting the #8 straight to the air door. I assumed the air door was open until the vacuum was applied by the car, which I thought closed it (for warmup), but it sounds like I got that backwards.


So the door should be closed until the door motor gets vacuum.

I do have the OSM, but I guess I suck at looking at some of these diagrams. It's difficult for me to reconcile the component name with an actual object under the hood (I have trouble with the pictures...). I guess that's what the numbers on the hoses are for though, so you can trace the circuit. The picture you posted is much better than what I have. What manual is that?

Sorry to make a long post....

A20A1
04-08-2006, 02:22 PM
Yeah vacuum opens the door (lets in hot air), and the air bleed and check valve together act as a vacuum storage unit.
So vacuum is trapped between the hot air door diaphragm and the check valve untill the air bleed valve opens and lets the pressure equalize, dropping vacuum and the door closes (stops letting in hot air) and lets in air from the main breating tube. The air bleed valve is temp sensative, so when the metal heats up on the air bleed it bends slighty, this bleeds the vacuum and closes the hot air door.

The hot air pipe is like 1/3 of the size of the main air inlet so it's a major restriction if your door is stuck open and is only letting in hot air, and it breathing thru a straw.

But you said your carb was icing so I guess your door never opened. always letting in cold air, but you're not getting air restriction from the hot air door being open.

Oh one more thing... there is a plastic tube that runs to the fender, under the fuse box... well inside the fender is a metal screen... sometimes that screen gets clogged, you'll have to remove your fender to clean it.

Whistler225
04-08-2006, 02:29 PM
erm, that tube is in the trunk....does it need to be on the car? That might sound dumb.....I took it off when I was trying to get the idle to settle down....I'm talking about the tube that connects the main breather tube to the fender vent. If it isn't on there, that screen wouldn't be a factor....

The hot air pipe is the roughly 1" diameter tube coming off the bottom of the main breather tube, right? That's vacant as well, but not because I took it off. I guess I need one of those....

that will have to wait till friday though. One of those aluminum tubes is what I need, right?

HondaBoy
04-08-2006, 02:46 PM
i havent read all the posts or anything. but you said something about have a your fuel system serviced right? now what exactly do you mean, like they cleaned it out using the pressurized fuel system cleaner? if so wonder if that messed up anything like the O rings in the carb or the float needle valve? just something that came to mind. dunno if that'd be it.

A20A1
04-08-2006, 02:53 PM
Aluminum tube for what? the hot air door? or the intake?

You don't need the plastic tube to the fender, but it does bring in cold air.

Whistler225
04-08-2006, 03:23 PM
the aluminum tube that goes from the hot air opening on the bottom of the main breather tube to the exhaust manifold....that is where it hooks up right?

A20A1
04-08-2006, 04:00 PM
That isn't aluminum is it? least I don't think it was... it was some fiber hose.

Soundy
04-08-2006, 04:30 PM
The mystery continues...

So I (sort of) figured out why the car was flooding and dying at idle: something was leaking gas down into the primary which of course, was causing a high idle right up until it started flooding... revving up would burn off the excess and let it idle better for a few seconds again. I say "sort of" because I'm not entirely sure where it was leaking from; right-rear-most hat screw might have been a little loose.

So, opened the carb up again, checked that everything was clean... discovered the float level was WAY too high (past the top of the inspection window even with the float removed and the front of the car higher than the back!) and the secondary venturi booster was a bit loose.

Took care of all that, put it all back together... now we're back to a nice even idle of 750. I was also going to post that my new-found "pep" was gone again, but on a subsequent run to the store, it seemed to be at least partially back... I'd REALLY like to know WTF is going on with that! Can sure feel it when the secondary kicks in though, so I guess it's working well...

A20A1
04-08-2006, 04:51 PM
You might still have a float o-ring leak... if it's only leaking internally only one o-ring is busted. It will seal and leak sporaticly untill fixed and it makes adjustin the float impossible because the float level will be set right one moment then will overflow when the o-ring shifts around. On a broken o-ring it is possible to set the float level so low that the leak itself supplies fuel to the carb float bowl which really messes with you because the float level looks right but really it's not even close.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5350

http://www.3geez.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3341

Soundy
04-08-2006, 05:30 PM
Don't think so... as I noted, it's not flooding anymore.

A20A1
04-08-2006, 05:38 PM
It doesn't have to.. thats all I was saying.

Whistler225
04-08-2006, 06:29 PM
you're probably right A20A....I've seen these aluminum hoses in the auto parts store, and Have used them for the hot air tube in the past, but the original was probably some other material, like fiber....

I think the aluminum ones work though....they can handle the temperatures of the manifold (though not forever of course), and they're flexible and stiff at the same time, so you can kind of set it and forget it. Plus I kind of like the way they look.

Have you bought one of the fiber ones? are they expensive? I'd imagine they are probably more durable than the ones I'm talking about.

A20A1
04-08-2006, 07:26 PM
No never bought one... it's a honda oem.. .blah blah blah, that will probably cost you 3x as much as it should.

AccordB20A
04-08-2006, 08:35 PM
MAN im glad our NZ new cars dont have emission control crap..im also glad we dont have emission checks over here :D i just finished ripping the emission control crap off a zc and it goes so much faster. Damn Laws

Soundy
04-08-2006, 10:06 PM
It doesn't have to.. thats all I was saying.

Nah, float level seems to be stabilized as well... it was just set way too high.

I still get sputters when holding the pedal near cruising-to-slight-deceleration but it seems to have most of its pep back as well. Overall seems to be a Happy Honda again!

Maybe I should start a pool on what's gonna break next... :P

Whistler225
04-09-2006, 04:13 AM
lol....I think I'll see if the aluminum ones will fit....

Whistler225
04-09-2006, 05:18 AM
A20A: I was looking at this hot air tube junction on the bottom of the main air breather....where the heck does the other end go? I thought I had found it under the manifold, but that had something attached to it that swivels....

Whistler225
04-09-2006, 05:21 AM
hrmmm....it would appear I am missing a piece from my exhaust manifold...the shroud....has the attachment for the hot air pipe on it. I don't see it on my manifold :-(

oh wow....the oxygen sensor mounts on that cover too.....that sucks....lol

holy crap....half the nuts are missing off the exhaust manifold.....and the long mounting bolt on the ac compressor is also missing....damn compressor is flapping in the breeze....no wonder I don't have ac.

would the missing manifold nuts cause any problems other than a noisy exhaust? I assume they would lower the back pressure and cause other problems.... I know they're 12mm, but what inside dia. and thread?

Whistler225
04-09-2006, 05:36 AM
NM on the nut size....it's listed in the manual duh...8x1.25mm......
well, the car runs without that shroud right now, and looks like the oxygen sensor is still plugged into the manifold.

I'll definitely be replacing those 8mm nuts....Majestic sells them for 1.85, and the washer for 2.64....wonder how crucial it is to buy the "special" nuts and washers.

The shroud is 50 bucks....will have to wait a week or two.

The hot air tube is 36.50....you were right A20A....about three times what it should be.

Whistler225
04-09-2006, 02:58 PM
Well, I put new nuts on the bottom of my exhaust manifold....I think I may have solved part of my idle problem in the process. I warmed up the engine, and the idle remained at 1k rpm like it's supposed to. Now it's a little rougher than it was before, but I think I'm closing in on it....

Soundy
10-05-2006, 08:55 AM
Hey kids, just another update here... I was doing some work on my car the other day, wanted to give it a Seafoam treatment, so was looking for an appropriate vacuum line (one that feeds BOTH sides of the intake manifold). Started pulling the lines off between the maze of pipes and the "black box" to see if I could find a good amount of vacuum on any... and discovered a little piece of SOMETHING blocking one of the pipes. Managed to pry that out, then continued checking the hoses... and found the same one holed right where it attached at the bottom of the throttle body.

My suspicion is that when it got blocked (by whatever), the vacuum sucked a hole in a weak spot. There wasn't actually any vacuum there at idle, but it goes in right near the bottom of the primary venturi, so I wonder if it might only trigger at higher speeds, maybe something to control the secondary, thus preventing that from kicking in properly.

In any case, unblocking that line and replacing the holed pipe has made a big difference - the "pep" is more consistent, not so much "lagging" now, and of course, since it didn't have vacuum at idle, there was none of the usual "whistling" sound that one would normally use to track down a vacuum leak.

That's actually the third vac hose I've replaced now that looks like it's been "melted", collapsed, or just plain crumbled away. If I feel really ambitious one day, it might be an idea to just replace them all.

Edit: FYI, I think it was the #7 line - the blockage was in the end of the pipe where the hose from the black box connects; the holed segment was the short piece from the other end of that pipe to the base of the carb.

87lxtrooper
11-08-2006, 03:24 PM
Sorry I'm so late on posting on this, but I'm kinda new at this. I'm having the same sort of problem as the ones posted earlier this year but a little different. I have an 87 lx and it shudders badly, like someone learning to drive a manual trans, on acceleration after it is at opperating temp. It mainly happens in 3rd and 4th gear. But when I push in the clutch it revs fine. No dragging like the others have posted. I just purchased it so I have no idea whats been done to it. Any ideas what it could be?

Oldblueaccord
11-09-2006, 10:37 PM
tropper if you have done a search I would make a brand new thread with a nice title that might get you more looks.


wp

87lxtrooper
11-11-2006, 05:53 PM
I would but I don't want to step on any toes, or making anyone mad, by posting the same type of thing on two different ones. It's not something i need a fast reply on. I can live with the problem for now.

shakakan
12-21-2006, 06:54 AM
I have been having this problem starting with yesterday. It was raining yesterday morning, about 45 degrees. Normal until it had been running for about 15 minutes. It started loosing power. In fact, with it in neutral, it wouldn't rev up until I had the gas pedal almost fully depressed, suggesting it was only getting air through the secondary. It also burned fuel at an alarming rate. Very foggy this morning, and it did the same thing. I also noticed that it was missing slightly at cruise just before the problem surfaced. I am thinking carb icing at this point, though this is the first time that this has happened. Though I have driven in the rain before when conditions where cool. I am going to add some heat when I buy fuel this morning. I will see if it responds. I have quite abit of driving to do today, so I hope it gets better. If anyone comes up with an answer. I am excited to know.