Really bad warm-up sequence.

[Acid X]

Alright, i have been having this problem for a while.. Whenever i first start the car in the morning, it's supposed to jump up to 2k+ rpms from what i read everywhere. My car doesnt do this. I'll start it and it will rev up to about 1800rpms, and then all of a sudden the car will start bogging down like it's running insanely rich. You can smell it from the back of the car too.

IT sounds like a gurgling almost, "Blub blub blub blub blub".... It makes the car drop to 1000rpms or worse sometimes, and if i step on the gas its like the car is misfiring. It takes forever to warm up, and i think this is the cause for my car to be wasting gas. I changed the fuel filters recently and took the car to arizona (2 weekends ago) and i got over 200 miles to a HALF tank, so i know the car isnt doing anything wrong as far as wasting gas while driving...

The car takes forever to warm up..

Another thing i notice is that when i step on the gas (in neutral) and rev it to around 3 or higher, when i let off the car sort of back fires. Just a little, but it does it multiple times.. I'm not sure if this is normal.

Any ideas?

[A20A1]

check the float level, check the choke.

You might have a problem with the fast idle linkage.

Or you might have vacuul going to the fast idle unloader when it shouldn't be.

maybe its a coolant problem or a thermovalve problem.

whats your coolant mixture?

[Acid X]

How would i check my coolant mixture? I already checked and adjusted my float level perfectly.

How would i check if its any of those things you listed?

[88Accord-DX]

Your not talking to me, but test the coolant with one of these cheap coolant testers.

There is a test for the thermovalve, but I have the procedure at work on the Mitchell program.

http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE-997942reg.jpg

[akylem]

Your not talking to me, but test the coolant with one of these cheap coolant testers.
There is a test for the thermovalve, but I have the procedure at work on the Mitchell program.
http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE-997942reg.jpg

i would like to see that test for the thermovalve

[88Accord-DX]

i would like to see that test for the thermovalve
I'll get it probably on Tuesday & post it in your thermovalve thread.

[VTEC_Inside]

I had similar problems which were the result of the choke puller not functioning.

It would start up and run fine for a couple seconds, and then run like a bag of $hit until the bimetallic spring finally opened it all the way anyway. Problem is that took like 2-3min, longer if it was colder outside.

[Acid X]

Choke puller huh? Is it an easy fix? Can you elaborate a little, maybe?

[VTEC_Inside]

Looking from the front of the car its the on the top left of the carb, its a smaller diaphragm. It has two external vacuum connections and one where it meets the carb near the bottom screw.

There is a small rubber O ring where it meets the carb. If this O ring has deteriorated, it could be your problem. It is also possible that the puller diaphragm itsself is leaking. Beyond that I believe it is Thermovalve A that supplies vacuum to the puller.

There is a quick way to confirm this though. If yours is doing what mine was, it pretty much has to have been sitting there for 3-4hours or more before it will really chug on start up.

If you know how, remove the air cleaner assembly and plug off all the hoses. You only need to plug off 2 or 3 of them, but wth.. If you aren't comfortable doing that, at least take the lid off the air cleaner as well as the brass looking screen.

Start the car up and when it starts to chug, reach in there and open the choke plate with you finger a bit. My bet is that it smooths right out. If the puller isn't working as soon as you let the plate go it will snap almost shut again when you let it go. You will be able to watch it gradually open as the spring heats up and carries it along.

On my car I replaced the whole choke assembly just because I had one. I never did confirm 100% what was wrong with the old one. I believe it was the diaphragm in the puller itself as the little rubber O ring was fine, and the replacement also works fine eliminating the thermovalve as a problem.

Just noted that you live in California. You may choose to just get some wire and tie the choke mechanism back into the wide open position. Thats what I did as a temporary measure on my car. If I can start mine with no choke in -10c weather (it gets entertaining but is possible), then I don't think you'll have any trouble.

[Acid X]

When i start the car in the morning i notice the choke plate is open just a crack... Is that how much you wanted me to open it, or more than that? It's like 1/6th of an inch or less open, but it's open. Is it supposed to open more?

[VTEC_Inside]

It depends on the ambient temperature. If I'm right it will run smooth if you open it further by hand.

I can't really give you a set measurement.

[Acid X]

It depends on the ambient temperature. If I'm right it will run smooth if you open it further by hand.

I can't really give you a set measurement.

Do i really need to plug up the vacuum lines? It's an easy thing to do since i have the civic box mod, but if its not needed then i dont see any point to doing it...

[VTEC_Inside]

You don't need to plug any lines to check it, just move the plate by hand.

In the end you can just tie the choke open with something leaving the whole assembly in place. As I said before, in your warmer climate it shouldn't affect you much.

[Acid X]

I think it is what you're talking about. I took some pictures to show you how i did it, and to show you what the choke looks like. Check it out:

When it first turns on and i get my chugging:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3077/10009044gj.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10009044gj.jpg)

When i push it to around here, it stops chugging:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4354/10009053qu.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10009053qu.jpg)

When i let go and it goes back to chugging, it's still open a little:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4194/10009061ne.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10009061ne.jpg)

After i let go when it finally starts to idle right (around 2.5-3k):
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5926/10009089lw.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10009089lw.jpg)

And finally, when the car is warmed up:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7990/10009096ua.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10009096ua.jpg)

Its amazing how fast it warmed up when i was doing this. It took about 2 minutes instead of the usual 10!

So is this exactly what was happening to you? How can i fix it without doing the choke replacement?

[VTEC_Inside]

Yep, thats what was happening to me as well.

What to do now is really up to you.

For the time being I would tie the linkage so that the choke remains wide open all the time. It can be a little hard starting it like that, you have to give it gas for 30s-1m. but at least it wont be running like shit.

I'm trying to remember how to check that thing. Thermovalve A is what supplies vacuum to the puller. I believe its the front most port that should be receiving vacuum. There are a couple very helpfull threads here that can help you now that you know where to look.

[Beaver]

Hey Acid, I was checking out your setup, I myself have been wanting to do the Civic Box mod as well for weeks. I have most of the stuff needed, the box, a case breather filter, and im just waiting on my SR. I've read pretty much every thread on it, do you have any further advice? I noticed the two sensors in your box, are those necessary? Where did you get your gasket from? Thanks for your time, the vaccuum lines are kinda confusing for me.

[Acid X]

I'd appreciate all the info you could give me on this subject VTEC, i'd like to know how i could decide what i need... Because im giong to the JY on sunday and might be able to pull a good part, but i'd like to know what i need for sure.

Beaver, i'm giong to PM you in a second so this thread doesnt get off topic.

[VTEC_Inside]

If you are making a trip to the junk yard, I would pull the whole choke assembly from a car there. Hopefully you can find one that uses screws to hold the spring in place instead of rivets.

This pic shows the entire assembly with the spring in place, but the rivets drilled. The one on my car now uses screws in these holes. Screws make the job infinitely easier as it is a little tough to drill that bottom one on the car.
http://www.ferfolia.net/james/89accord/cpuller1.jpg

You need to get that spring off because there is a screw behind it. 3 screws in total I believe on that. 2 on the choke puller diaphragm itself.
http://www.ferfolia.net/james/89accord/cpuller2.jpg

This pic just shows you for sure how I did it. I removed the screw from the end of the choke shaft and took the whole choke assembly in one piece.
http://www.ferfolia.net/james/89accord/cpuller3.jpg

The bottom screw on the puller can be difficult to get to while its on the car. I've got a little mini ratcheting bit wrench that does the trick. You might be able to get away without something like that taking it off. Once you have the rest of the assembly unscrewed (spring part and shaft), then remove the easier top screw on the choke puller. With the top screw gone tap on the puller to rotate it counterclockwise and the bottom screw should loosen enough that you don't need a good bit on it with a tool to get it out.

I found that tightening that bottom screw back in is impossible without my bit driver. You just cant get a good grip on it.

[VTEC_Inside]

Oh and the carb side vacuum port on the puller is just beside the bottom screw. You can see where the casting builds up to that cylindrical shape.

[Acid X]

Wouldn't i really just want to grab the Choke Puiller diaphragm? I looked at the honda service manual and found this technique with a drill bit that i can try to clean the vacuum end with on the diaphragm itself. I'm going to try it.. But since its hot out today i can almost guarantee that i wont be able to get the car to chug again. It's already all warmed up.. Heh.

So, can i take the diaphragm or do i really need the whole choke assembly?

[VTEC_Inside]

You can take just the puller if you want.

In my case I had a whole other carb so it was much easier IMO to pull the whole assembly rather than fiddle with those little cotter pins.

If you are able to get both the puller screws out you can swing it up out of the way to inspect the rubber O ring and the port on both sides.

Again, this is assuming that Thermovalve A is not the culprit.

Good luck in any event. I spent $200 at the dealer to have them try and figure it out. Now that I mention it, their temporary solution was to T off the vacuum line that went into the left rear of the airbox and hook that up to the front port on the puller.

[Acid X]

Where would i get one of these O rings if its the culprit? I tried the drill-bit thing that i was told to try in the service manual and it didnt seem to make a difference.

I'm not 100% sure where the screws that you are talking about are... i couldnt really tell from the pictures you posted. Perhaps you can circle them?

EDIT: Oh, and just to make sure, this is the Choke Puller Diaphragm, right?

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/3929/chokepuller4bt.th.jpg (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chokepuller4bt.jpg)

[VTEC_Inside]

Yes that is the choke puller.

If I'm thinking the same ones, the screws I was talking about are actually in place of the rivets that hold the black heated spring to the assembly. The one I pulled off my donor carb had threaded holes and screws instead of rivets.

[StressSolutions]

What actually moves the choke plate? Sure, I know it is the rod that runs over and connects with all that other stuff, is it vacuum activated or is it heat activated?

I have the same problem, chokes itself to death even when the engine is at operating temperature. Sometimes. Sometimes it will work great. The 3-4 hour wait time is pertinent here too...if 3-4 hours elapses, then it has to warm up again. Less than that time, it works great.

Today the car was in my garage, I didn't press the gas, I could see that the choke was already closed. It started, and with 10-15 seconds started chugging. I opened the choke plate, stuck in a screwdriver and looked fiddled and puzzled. I continually checked by removing the screwdriver the progress and condition/placement/operation of choke mech. After about 20 minutes of running at 1500 rpm, the choke would stay open by itself. I shut it off, walked dog for 10 minutes, in which time the choke closed again. I started the engine, it ran fine, no chugging. After about 10 min the choke opened all the way. I put the breather back on, it ran perfect the rest of the day. Starting stopping, etc.

Would having a seperated exhaust pipe have anything to do with this? Thanks... mick

[VTEC_Inside]

The choke is opened by vacuum via the choke puller. But the puller is pulling against that bi-metallic spring.

When the car is cold, the spring provides the most resistance, so the choke only opens a little. As the spring heats up, the puller is able to open it more and more.

[StressSolutions]

Thanks. What causes the spring toheat? Is it electrical? Seems like there are a couple wires there, saw them in the pics too. I know there is coolant running thru the intake under the carb. The trap door in the intake is working, I think, to draw air from around the exhaust manifold.

[Acid X]

So, then do i just replace the choke puller? If so, wha's the easiest way to replace just the choke puller?

[VTEC_Inside]

Thanks. What causes the spring toheat? Is it electrical? Seems like there are a couple wires there, saw them in the pics too. I know there is coolant running thru the intake under the carb. The trap door in the intake is working, I think, to draw air from around the exhaust manifold.

The spring is the black circular thing removed and at the lower right of this pic.

http://www.ferfolia.net/james/89accord/cpuller2.jpg

It hooks up to 12v+ and grounds to the carb. Don't quote me on this, but I believe the supplied voltage also changes depending on conditions.

[VTEC_Inside]

So, then do i just replace the choke puller? If so, wha's the easiest way to replace just the choke puller?

Therein lies the reason I replaced the whole thing. All those little cotter pins scare the $hit out of me. I think you'd probably end up having to take the whole thing off just to get the puller off anyway.

Again, I can't remember how, but if you've got the puller off you can plug the hole where it meets the carb and test it with a vacuum pump if you have one.

Here is one more thing I just thought of. The diaphragms in these things are actually pretty darn resiliant(sp?), a hole is unlikely. The seal around the outer edge is a more likely culprit. If you have gotten the puller unscrewed already, what you can try is taking the puller apart while still attached. With it apart, clean up both outer edges with some sand paper and put a little bit of silicone around the outside edge of the diaphram.

[Acid X]

Well i dont have the time at the moment, nor a secondary puller diaphragm to start taking stuff apart.

I actually meant to ask what the easiest way was to get the puller diaphragm off.. Not the puller. I already know the diaphragm is most likely the culprit, and i dont know if the O-ring you're talking about is inside the diaphragm or not.

[VTEC_Inside]

The choke puller which is what you circled in the above picture. You can open up that component with the three screws on the front of it. Then you can inspect the puller diaphragm. I took the one that was on my car apart and found nothing wrong with the diaphragm itself but the where it seals at the edges I'm pretty sure it was leaking.

The O-ring I spoke off is actually on the carb just to the side of where the lower screw on that choke puller threads in.

I guess the terms are killing us here.

[Acid X]

AH, yea, i see. I have a feeling its leaking from around the diaphragm too, but theres only one way to be sure... By taking it off! Haha.

So anyway, those three screws seem somewhat hard to get to. Are there any bolts or screws that i can remove to get the thing to slide away from the carb so i can unscrew the three screws?

[VTEC_Inside]

Well once you get the two screws out of the choke puller, you are half way there. The way that it attaches to the rest of it, you can't really move it side to side much though. I'm not even sure you can swing it up for that matter.

Unfortunately, removing the rest of the mechanism might be your only recourse.

On the bright side you can get away with putting rivets back into just the top two holes when you put it back together. Or you can retrofit it with screws if you've got a tap and some small screws.

I wish I could be more help. I know I thought it was a pretty daunting task the first time I did it as well, but I had enough of it at that point. Now I can pull it apart with my eyes closed.

[Acid X]

Alright well i appreciate all the help man, and if i need more.. Well, i'll be posting here. I'll probably mess around with the carb a little tomorrow to try and get that diaphragm off and check it out.

[88Accord-DX]

<throwing some experience in I have with messing with choke unloader>

When I removed the choke unloader. I had to drill the rivets out with a drill bit the same size as the rivets. There is a line on the top of the choke unloader that should line up the housing part. I used a pop rivet gun w/ pop rivets when I put it back together.

[dj mackee]

i got this same exact problem. i have no idea what you guys are talkin about because i have no clue about carbs and what not. i know this isnt really a solution but i usually jus manually idle the car to around 2500 rpms and start driving when the engine isnt "chugging".