B20A camshafts

[rjudgey]

Hey Guy's
Remeber a while ago we discovered that Cat Cams had B18A and B20A camshafts listed on their website, well after much awaited delay i found time to pop down to the U.K. distributer with a spare pair of Cams, he's going to measure them up and take pics and worse case scenario send them to Cat Cams direct to physically check so i'll keep you posted to the results would be sweet if we could get off the shelf cams for this engine but he said even if they don't match they could make some up anyway all they need is a complete head to make a pair up from!! Although this would be more expensive and require a group buy as i can't afford to pay for the R&D work needed for just one or two pairs of cams. But once done anyone can have any spec camshafts made up from mild to wild!!

[Lok]

Thats will be simply fantastic!!!!! Many thanks rjudgey for your time and effort....let me Know if you will do any Group Buy for B20A cams, through maybe I have an engine swap next months....
Cat Cams is very nice quality and performance cams......they are on use for many years in OPEL/Vauxhal C20XE tuned engines...

[rjudgey]

The really cool thing about Cat cams is they don't mess about with Re-grinds as they don't offer the best performance they only do blanks and cut them to whatever spec.
The valve springs they have listed for the cams they have are near enough the same size as whats on a B20A so i'm pretty hopefull it's the same engine and also with Mugen B20A being used in the F3 Ralt in 86-88 seasons and the B20A ludes popularity in Germany and U.K. wouldn't surprise me if they do have something well fingers crossed as soon as i know i'll be buying a pair and i'll let you all know probably go for the 278 duration an 11mm lift as that only needs spring upgrade where as the 285 duration requires some new retainers and platforms. I think 278 on a DOHC engine will be plenty easy 8k will have to definately switch to carbs now!! HEHE!!

[thegreatdane]

I have a feeling that it's not our B20A they list the cams for... But I'm looking forward to find out whether it's true or not. Thanks for looking into this!

edit: but on a sidenote, should they be for the B18A,B18B,B20B and so on engines they should still fit you just need to make a notch at the end of the exhaust cam for the exhaust cam sensor housing. OR use a distributor from one of those engines as well.

[rjudgey]

i think it will the spring sizes are the same that they have listed, and also the years would be corect, also a B20A cam would fit in a B18A it would just have an extra notch. Even if it were the other way i'm sure they could machine the notch in any ways as they are made from blanks in the first place? We shall see still not heard anything yet will let you know as soon as i do, the thought of a weber powered B20A 2g lude with 2.25" exhaust and some 278 degree cams never sounded so attractive!!

[Lok]

Cam regrid definatelly is not the best solution for Honda engines, through you gain power up high, but the engine suffers low and mid-range (I listen worst than stock).
B18A intake valves are 31mm and not 33mm as B20A, so probably B16A-B18C dual valve springs could be used in B20A ( for revving 8000rpm+) and not thoose of B18A..???
B16A-B18C engines have the same exhaust/intake valve diameter as B20A engines.
B20A engine is simply SUPERB, one of the best engines Honda ever made, but the main problem in these days is the availability of parts......................better?? maybe just take straight a F3 MF204A MUGEN B20A and work on your car..........
......you could find one in our days for 5000EURO-10.000EURO....some of them are from rebuilt with zero miles!!!!
MF204B and MF204C MUGEN engines are the newer B series VTEC HONDA engines so don't be confused.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43389&highlight=MUGEN

MF204A engine from Accord 3G-Prelude 2G:

http://www.3geez.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4249&d=1114623693

MF204B engine from newer VTEC Hondas:

http://www.todaracing.com/images/engine_mugen_formula3_b.jpg

http://www.todaracing.com/images/engine_mugen_formula4_b.jpg

The differences are obvious, just look at the distance between the cam gears
and the much higher block of MF204A because of the 143mm rod of B20A (B18C 137mm).
over 165ps is a Mugen joke, MUGEN B20A make about 210ps with restrictive intake valve as rjudgey said bafore...
All the F3 engines make about 200-210hp with the restrictive valve, but then come the 95mm stroke (low and torque)of B20A to outperform the newer VTEC engines and the OPEL-VW-FORD (86mm stroke) in F3 races.
B20A is simply a winning Honda engine, but too sad they are so rare in our days....

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/details.asp?id=10398&cat=3

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/details.asp?id=8687&cat=3

[rjudgey]

imagine what it would be like without a restrictor plate ;0)
Oh if only one would pop up would love to have the insides out of that beast. I reckon the head has different spec valves though as the seats are larger on stock head and Mugen B20A has to be based on stock head i reckon they would definately have had larger exhaust valves 30mm maybe 34-35mm inlet valves too. Oh well could be fun owning a F3 car see if one comes up cheap soon their must be quite a few about in the U.K.

[carotman]

I would love to get my hands on such an engine... considering the fact that it will bolt to the Accord without problem is a dream :D

Or maybe just the valve cover :D

[thegreatdane]

If Mugen can build it, you can build it just as reliably and if not, more powerful. =)
A base engine is a base engine, it's all about research, funds, and development.
On top of that, there's no way that intake manifold can fit inside a stock 3g!
Look at the size of the damn thing!

Well not quite really, because Mugen made a dry sump oil system for it with an aluminium oil pan and a nice valve cover :eatarrow: That stuff is a bit difficult to mock up yourself :)

Lok, that's the first nice pictures I see of an F3 racer with the B20A engine. Buy it! :D You could make a RWD accord out of that if you use the transmission from that racer. I bet you'll have a nice selection of gears too, hehe.

But seriously there's got to be spareparts available to buy for those engines somewhere?? When they use them in racecars they must need replacement parts once in a while.
Alright so who's got contacts in the F3 racing world?

[carotman]

camshafts and valve covers would be nice to get, or even the whole head itself.

[Lok]

There is no problem for someone to find a MF204A engine ( MUGEN B20a)
as these engines are still available in motorsport world.
There are also motorsport companies which make complete rebuilt on thoose engines, through will be very difficult and time consuming for someone, to make a rebuilt himshelf, because of the availability of parts and searching.

For people like Thegreatdane, Carotman, rjudgey and other B20A owners, you can get a MF204A engine and use it for parts (camshafts-high compression pistons, ported head, valve cover) for your own engine, or bolt on straight the MF204A engine on the original B20A tranny......plus update clutch-new race radiator- think if you keep the oil breather system of MF204A etc,etc,etc

The Individual Throttle body kit is not a problem.
You can use the manifold-fuel injectors-fuel rail and throttle body kit with smaller Air Horns custom or from Jenvey......I don't think that will be a problem
fitting the ITB kit under Accord hood.

The majority of Mugen MF 204A use Boch custom mapped ECU in conjunction with ITB kit.
Some use more advance electronics Like MOTEC ECU..

Camshafts were custom made years before from Buddy Club, but maybe in our days, as rjudgey said, are custom from Catcams or some other companies as people use normally domestic market to rebuilt the engine.

You can see in Thegreatdane's Mugen catalogue that the MF204A uses the normal B20A distriburator, but in the Red F3 car there is no stock Distriburator, maybe because of update electronics ( Electromotive with individual coils per cylinder???) so everybody can make his individual set-up...

To find an MF204A engine, the best search is the site www.racecarsdirect.com

You must click at cars for sale-F3 and search....

I have seen many times MF204A engines for sale, or complete F3 cars with lots of parts and spare Mugen engines at very good prices....

Right now I found this one:

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/details.asp?id=20497&cat=3

if anybody interest he can e-mail to the saler for more informations.

For me , I need first to do a B20A2 swap and after we'll see...

[thegreatdane]

Dont they list anything in the ~1000euro price range lol. 5000 euro is a lot when you dont even know how much of the engine you can use.
What have you seen these engines sell for?

Are you saying that buddy club previously made camshafts for the accord B20A engine? And what happened to those camshafts?

It says under the red F3 racer that it use's a Bosch Motronic system. Yuck... :)

It looks like TODA has been rebuilding these engines or something. They mention it on their website.

[Lok]

Buddyclub,TODA and Mugen worked together on this motor on various eras..
Buddyclub was the first company which made camshafts for MUGEN B20A...
I don't think that those camshafts were for production, but just special order from Mugen....for its racing F3 engines.

Dear Thegreatdane if you see on your Mugen catalogue, you can see how many differences there are between the original MUGEN MF204A and the red F3 car MF204A.....look at the ITB kit.....in the Catalogue is the ITB kit from TODA racing with different injector position for better fuel atomization....
In the Red F3 car the ITB kit is custom made.....so as I said before is not standard that all the MF204A engines come with the same set-up, electronics, etc......through after so many years is too difficult to be all the engines in the original Mugen specs...
As for prices, per example you can see F3 DALARA MUGEN HONDA 20.000Euros Lots of spares, spare engine etc.....

So you can deal with the seller if you want some specific parts, or just the spare engine for a much lower price.

Sometimes you see, like the guy from Finland, MF204A engine for 4000-5000 euros, some of them fully rebuilt...0 miles.....these are for sure a lot of money but think about it:

ITB kit with injectors, air horns, filters and F.P.R. 2500+ Euros without the labor work to fit them ( I know you'll fit them by yourself).

Race spec head, clean, slightly milled with P&P job 300 Euro or 500 euros++++ if you want and angle job, new valve guides, seals, etc.

Dual valve springs from B16A to rev 8000 rpm 100 euros second hand

jdm ITR pistons machined (Carotman's mod) to go 12:1+ C/R with milled head
400 euros with new rings.

Shot pinned con rods with new rod bolts, new crank-rod bearings and seals
400 euro+
New head gasket , timing belt 200Euro +

Stand alone ECU dynotuned with new Distr and harness 1500 euro+

Custom camshafts 600+ euros

Light flywheel 300+ euros

so you need 6000 euros just for the parts....
With labor work and the first service on the engine you'll go over 7000 euros.

if you need and Honing on the sleeves, then will be more expensive and you must find a decent machine shop which will make the job properly......and
still you will not have the same potential as an MF204A......those engines
have C/R over 12.5:1 ( even 13:1 sometimes after so many rebuilds) with overbored pistons to make full advantage of the 2.0L regulations ( stock B20A I think 1956cc) etc, etc, etc so it a good deal in my opinion, and you can use you old engine for spares...

The Mf204A needs just a service, a new cam belt, some wiring job and remapped the ECU without the restrictive valve anymore.....250+hp

Off course on both cases you will need custom header, exhaust, cat-out,
new clutch, custom LSD, race radiator...
So we speak for about 10.000 Euros+ or $10.000+ (U.S.A price) for someone to run properly a fully tuned N/A B20A 250+hp

Anyway, if I find anymore info about the superb B20A Honda engine, I let you Know.

[carotman]

So B16A springs fork fine huh?

I was thinking about raising the rev limit for some time. my engine makes power up till the rev limit.

[Lok]

Yes, B16A valve springs will fit and they are really cheap.
Until 8100rpm (stock B16A rev limit) are Ok....but friends of me with CRX VTEC B16A with 8500rpm rev limit (cheaped ECU) bent their valves after 30.000miles + (depends the use)...
So I think if you want to run a rev limit of 7500rpm (stock B20A revlimit 7000rpm) you can keep your stock valvetrain...
Otherwise, if you go 8000rpm, you can use a combination of B20A-B16A inner-outer springs or simply dual valve springs on both exhaust and intake side from B16A.
B20A has dual valve springs everywhere I think (as Rob said before).
B16A has only on the intake side Dual valve springs ( Blue) but you can use the intake B16A outer springs in the exhaust side.
B16B and B18C-R have dual valve springs everywhere (yellow) and are good until 9000rpm rev limit (stock TYPE-R rev limit 8500rpm).

[Lok]

Here are the regulation of F3, and what we can expect from B20 MUGEN F3 engine???:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/871232308__AppJ_2004_Art_275.pdf

No variable timing, so for this maybe these old Honda engines are so popular on F3 champion??? or maybe for this TODA make the TODA VTEC killer cams
for the newer B series engines??

They even have a cat!!!! and run normal octane fuel ( so no more than 12.5-13:1 C/R).

Also:

26 mm diameter restrictor leading to near 200 horsepower (150 kW) between 5000 and 7400 rpm

In 1988, Mugen started tuning Honda engines for use in Formula 3, winning the Japanese series with Akihiko Nakaya, and in 1990 expanded their business to Europe. The same year, Mugen won its first Formula 3 championships in Europe, taking the French title with Eric Hélary, and the British crown with Mika Hakkinen at the wheel of a West Surrey Racing Reynard, who repeated the title in 1991 with Rubens Barrichello.

As F3000 became a spec-series in Europe starting in 1996 with the Lola-Judd combo, the Japanese series responded by making Mugen the sole supplier to the Japanese championship, now redubbed Formula Nippon. M-TEC lost the supply contract for the 2006 season, with the rules changing to allow Toyota associate Tom's to join Mugen as engine supplier. Mugen continues to enjoy success in the Formula 3 circuit with its tuned 2.0 L Honda engines, having won 9 titles in Asia (8 of which in Japan) since 1988, as well as 19 titles in Europe (15 of them in Britain), and 13 in Latin America.

Engines in Formula 3 are all two-litre, 4-cylinder naturally-aspirated engines. Engines must be built from a production model block, and often must be sealed by race or series organizers, so that no private tuning can be carried out. Honda engines (tuned by Mugen) have perennially been popular, as have engines produced by Volkswagen, Alfa Romeo, or Renault. Currently Mugen, Toms-Toyota, Spiess-Opel, and Mercedes are the most popular engines.

[carotman]

Nice! :D

[thegreatdane]

BUMP! Any news? I'm considering just getting some B18 LS cams.

[A20A1]

.
On top of that, there's no way that intake manifold can fit inside a stock 3g!
Look at the size of the damn thing!

Aha, that think looks like a zepplin.

[rjudgey]

not yet just chased them up again think it's the holland end holding things up!!