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View Full Version : Megan Racing 4-2-1 Stainless F22 F23 Header , Modification / Install



A20A1
03-09-2006, 09:43 PM
Well here is the reality.

The port size is something I had expected to be larger due to the displacement being higher. It is much larger then expected though, the port is 1 X's as tall as ours but about 1.5 X's wider. Here is the comparison of the exhaust port size, it is nearly exact. A20 port 4/5ths the size of F22 ... I think I did the math right. The larger diameter tube will slow down velocity... if you make a good transition there souldn't be too much problems... you might want to make a new pipe in 1.625" (a little larger then stock) diameter from the A20 flange and then up the diameter to the F22 diameter.

F22 Exhaust Port 100%
A20 Exhaust Port 80%


The port spacing is pretty good in my opinion. especially for the two center ports. The outer ports will require a little more work on the pipe to get it to bend in enough to meet the A20 ports.

If using an A20 flange, the header tubes can be cut a few inches from the flange and removed or rotated 90 degrees and welded back on, there is no way around modiflying the ports shape because of issues with not enough material around the ports on the A20 flange. Other things you'll need is an A20 flange preferable in the same material as the header tubes. Once you cut the F22 flange, uless you plan to use some of it as a transistion to the A20 flange it's pretty much scrap. Overall this is very doable if you have a welder, hammer, and a torch.

Next step for me is to get a F22 header to work out fitment issues... and no I'd take my custom header over the F22 one anyday... this is for you guys if you want to take this route.

Accord 1997 F22 2.2 liter EX Accord --- Fel-Pro Header Gasket : MS 95535 --- $34.00
The actual number stamped on the gasket is : 94184
* Thank god it was a complete 1 piece gasket and not the 3 piece gasket set that the A20 comes with.
It says on the back that these are the same:

F22B1
F22B2
F22B6
Engine : 2.2l , 2156cc
1994 - 1997 Accord
-
F23A1
F23A4
F23A5
Engine : 2.3l , 2254cc
1998 - 2002 Accord


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/f22_gasket_a20_head.jpg
This next image makes me very hopeful since it would allow me to use all of the F22 flange...
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/AccordF22_A20x.png
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/90_deg_f22.jpg


This is about as good as I can get it...
A20 Ports with F22 Ports turned 90* & circled in white, plus extra flange material added around the F22 port.
I have the scale image on my computer... it's very very close, but you may want to lay it over an actual A20 flange or head or gasket to double check the bolt hole allignment.
300 Pixles/Inch 12 x 3.76 Inches
Here is the shrunken image.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/exhg3.png


I think prior to cutting off the flange... use the flange as support to keep the oval shape of the F22 header tubes. Cut the flange inbetween the ports, first for the outer most ports... use a torch... hose clamps... a metal bar and start working the angle of the outer two tubes to get them alligned with cylinder port #1 & #4... then remove the flange and then finally cut the header tube to scrap or use later.
Next do the inner most ports. Remove flange material between them... allign them with #2 & #3 then cut the flange off, cut the pipe segments to scrap or use later

I you choose to rotate the pieces of tubes, it will first be fit to the flange and welded as starter tubes... any minor adjustments can be made to the primaries before finally rewelding all 4 tubes to the starter tubes on the flange.
Keep in mind the lower portion of the header... in order to allign with our exhaust you need the 15* tilt. ( 15* DOWN , in our case. ) You may be able to add the majority of the downward angle of the secondary tubes by unbending the tubes where they make the near 90* bend under the oil pan. So instead of having a secondary downpipe that bends 90* degrees... you bend it 75* degrees.

For those worried about port matching, The triangle cut could be used for regular header modification... since the port heights are the same we could triangle cut the header tubes and shrink them horizontally to form circles (_) instead of (__) ovals. It will give a nice transition from the A20 port diameter to the F22 header tube diameter... then with a little bending of the #1 and #4 tubes inwards all the ports should be alligned.
From (__)___(__)_(__)___(__) to (_)__(_)(_)__(_)


At least the oil pickup is on the same side... I have a feeling though that there will still be clearance issues.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/engines.png

theDougler
03-10-2006, 12:57 AM
good thinking a20a1 and hopefully it will work

gfrg88
03-10-2006, 08:24 AM
what about turbo manifolds??? do you think we would be able to do something similar???

b20a86lude
03-10-2006, 11:18 AM
sorry to ruin the thread i want to say awsome work keep up the good work and thank god 4 people like u that make stuff happen

A20A1
03-10-2006, 07:02 PM
So thats the difference... the 1994-1997 SE DX LX are 4-1 cast manifold stock, and the EX has the 4-2-1 cast manifold stock.

AccordEpicenter
04-12-2006, 10:08 AM
with all that work why dont you guys just build or have an a20 turbo mani made? Think about the cost of buying and then ghetto rig modifying an f22 to work... There is alot of good info in this thread though.

bobafett
04-12-2006, 10:52 AM
yeah this is WAY too much work and way too ghetto. just build what you WANT. a20 exhaust manifold flanges are available. :D

b8er
04-12-2006, 03:47 PM
atleast somebody is trying new stuff, i love seeing this stuff, alot of work went into this thread and i say thanks

bobafett
04-12-2006, 03:50 PM
true, but at this point you are completely reworking an f22 flange just to get it to fit onto an a20 head. you can BUY a20 flanges. so this makes this whole mod pointless unless you want to save $30 and hack and build your own not perfectly fitting flange.

now if you didnt have to modify it so substantially, i could see this being really benefitial, but since you could never utilize a manifold from this setup without extensive work, i just dont see the point, when with as much fabrication is involved to get an f22 manifold to work, you could have had a a20 manifold built that will fit or function however you want. :)

but that being said, this is very interesting and maybe someone will put this info to good use and do something cool with it!

FyreDaug
04-12-2006, 04:06 PM
So is this the project you want that manifold and downpipe from me for?

btw, you should check your pm's

A20A1
04-12-2006, 05:51 PM
Well this was originally just to fit a f22 header, then someone brought up modifying a turbo manifold... I think you can do it even easier then I proposed, you still need an A20 flange though.

As for the header, I think I figured out how to keep the F22 flange and even some bolt holes.



So is this the project you want that manifold and downpipe from me for?

btw, you should check your pm's


Nope, this is to fit a F22 header... greddy, etc. to the A20. It's not for turbo... thats why I wanted the downpipe... I need a placemarket to allign the F22 secondary pipe to the stock exhaust, since I don't have stock exhaust on my car. It's just my custom header + muffler on the end.

Basicly the stock header would go in... I'd make a stationary flange to connect the stock pipe to... then I'll remove the stock manifold and downpipe and then install the F23 header to see if it reaches and aligns with the stationary flange.

AccordEpicenter
04-12-2006, 06:58 PM
theres not that much more support for F22s then there are A20s and any REAL race parts tend to be custom fab for these motors anyway

b8er
04-13-2006, 05:14 AM
well for some reason im thinking if you got an f22 header, cut the flange, 'squished' the 2 inner pieces closer together and welded them back onto an a20 flange would make alot more sence and be easier then cutting a trianle, bending,bashing, etc. i would also asume that the 2 inner pipes would have alot more stress on them then they were designed for so would you then have a problem of welds cracking?

gfrg88
04-13-2006, 06:59 AM
well for some reason im thinking if you got an f22 header, cut the flange, 'squished' the 2 inner pieces closer together and welded them back onto an a20 flange would make alot more sence and be easier then cutting a trianle, bending,bashing, etc. i would also asume that the 2 inner pipes would have alot more stress on them then they were designed for so would you then have a problem of welds cracking?

thats exactly what i had thought, i was going to ask that same question.

A20A1
04-13-2006, 10:28 AM
If you are using an A20 flange then you can reshape the horizontal oval to be a vertical oval. Like I said. Then you just need to heat the secondary pipes and bend those.

Part of the how to is to make full use of the header so you don't need to spend time money getting flanges made.
Cutting triangles was first mentioned as a way to keep the Turbo flange intact on the F22 manifold while using an A20 flange.
For the F22 header flange on the A20, there is no way to reshape the F22 flange ports and size them right horizontally so you need to cut cut cut. You don't triangle cut the header flange, you just cut it up and reweld it so you have a) bolt holes and b) port shapes simmilar to the A20. Triagnle cutting the header tube was a way to taper the tubes to meet the smaller port diameter.
If you don't taper or cut the expanded F22 original oval off altogether, and instead you just squish the oval the other way, you'll have what I outlined in the black and white image above. The ports being very close to the A20 diameter on the flange but the header tubes leaving a rather large lip aroung the ports on the flange. This lip is so big and such a quick transistion from port to header diameter that it will act as a major "STEP" like that in Stepped headers. The Major part is what concerns me though, if the lip was smaller I would leave it as is and consider it a bonus.

Really if you don't have easy access to an A20 flange the best thing to do is cut the flange up and make it's ports closer to the A20's while using some of the bolt holes already there, then cut off the ovals on the F22 header pipes altogether, those pipes were probably expanded instead of pressed to get that big of and oval shape from that size header tube so the metal in that area is thinned.
Removing the thinned metal decreases the tune diameter and reduces the lip. Also depending on how much is removed from the header tube may bring the flange closer to the bends. If the flange is close enough to the bend the header will tilt itself towards the front cross member. So while that helps the secondary angle it hurts both header tube length and if it hits the Front :thumbsdown.


i would also asume that the 2 inner pipes would have alot more stress on them then they were designed for so would you then have a problem of welds cracking?

Nothing is going to be under stress when I'm done with it, all the header tubes will allign with the ports prior to welding anything to either a modified F22 or A20 flange, it's not like I'm bunching the pipes up and then using the welds to hold them in place... the pipes will hold their place/shape on their own.


well for some reason im thinking if you got an f22 header, cut the flange, 'squished' the 2 inner pieces closer together and welded them back onto an a20 flange would make alot more sence and be easier then cutting a trianle, bending,bashing, etc.

You are missing a critical part; you'd still have horizontal ovals with no transition to the A20 ports. Also you are doing it wrong. The Inner pieces do not need to move... the outer tube are the problem ones, they are not even close to the A20, they are the ones that need to be squished closer together.

AccordEpicenter
04-13-2006, 10:56 AM
you can still get a20 exhaust flanges made and for cheap too (Under $50 or so) I paid like $30 for mine... I sure as hell wouldnt be using a hacked up F22 flange, but changing flanges and moving/bending runners could be viable if you got the original part for cheap. While this would work for a header, i dont think it would work very well for a turbo manifold due to the thicker construction

A20A1
04-13-2006, 11:26 AM
Yeah I agree, and I didn't even want to do a tubro manifold, this was originally just to do a header.

I'm trying to cut costs where I can... if it turns out the header flange leaks or is otherwise unusable, everthing will stil be set to weld on an A20 flange. So the process I will eventually use and write out for you guys will be the same for anyone using the F22 or A20 flange.

b8er
04-13-2006, 12:50 PM
You are missing a critical part; you'd still have horizontal ovals with no transition to the A20 ports. Also you are doing it wrong. The Inner pieces do not need to move... the outer tube are the problem ones, they are not even close to the A20, they are the ones that need to be squished closer together.

yea i was thinking about that on the way home from work today, anyways i hope to see everything work out and work out good

A20A1
04-14-2006, 05:04 PM
As long as no one out bids me I should have a header to play with soon.

AccordEpicenter
04-14-2006, 07:56 PM
well yea you can get cheap chinese ebay headers for f22 easily... To reshape the runners near the flange you could use a vise and good judgement and squish them to your desired shape.

A20A1
04-14-2006, 08:19 PM
Is that why the site, site feedback, and responses had poor grammar and misspelling... I was looking at those but they looked too low of a price to be real. I was in the market for used namebrand headers and thats what I'm getting.

AccordEpicenter
04-14-2006, 08:40 PM
they are real, but the quality usually just sucks, poor welds, thin/cheap materials, paper thin flanges usually, with suspect fitment... I cant vouch for all of the different guys on ebay selling cheap cheap headers etc but if i were you id do some research about the product and seller before you start buying junk. Usually for car stuff you get what you pay for, thats why say, a DC sports header a much higher price than say, a pacesetter. You get what you pay for.

A20A1
04-17-2006, 05:32 PM
This isn't the one I got, but it was my backup incase I didn't get the other header.

If anyone wants to try modding one on their own, this is pretty much as cheap as they come.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8055811671&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

A20A1
05-20-2006, 07:29 PM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2405.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2398.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2413.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2414.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2409.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2408.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2407.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2404.jpg

MessyHonda
05-20-2006, 07:32 PM
so did it work?

A20A1
05-20-2006, 07:33 PM
The -15 degree tilt to the A-PIPE / SECONDARIES will be fairly easy to accomplish.
after that there will be no problem on actual pipe fitment... all the other work will have to be to the ports on the primaries flange and the spacing of the pipes up there. there is no issue with crossmember hitting ... and with a gasket it should be even further away from the front of the block and oil pan.


so did it work?
Well not yet, it wont run till I get another accord... but I dont need the full accord body anymore. It works in my book, all the unknowns are filled in. All that remains is for me to work on the spacing using my spare head and block to build off of.
Thank you MEGAN RACING... even though they could probably easily make one for the A20 without me needing to modify one.

A20A1
05-20-2006, 09:57 PM
Anyone else want to try this mod, here is the link for the A20 Flange thread.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47396

A very rough measure 12.25" secondary 16.50" primary which makes it 28.75" and then another 13.50" till the last flange.

A20A1
05-21-2006, 05:13 PM
Here is the progress of the A-PIPE / SECONDARY PIPE -15 Degree Tilt.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2416.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2423.jpg

When I finish this the secondaries will fit under the car and under the pan no problem.

A20A1
05-22-2006, 03:45 PM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2425.jpg
Hose Clamp As Hack Saw Blade Guide at 15* angle.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2427.jpg
15 Degree Metal Section Removed.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2428.jpg
Secondaries bent to fill gap.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2410.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2434.jpg
Before and After Pipe Rewelded

It Fits...

sort of, the height of the deck or possibly the head is taller then the A20's height so these headers sit lower and may not be lowered 3G friendly.

mkymonkey
05-22-2006, 03:55 PM
so when are you going to start making these for us and selling them? you know thats what you have to do since you showed us now. either that or post up a very detailed how to on it :D:D:D:D:D:D

A20A1
05-22-2006, 04:03 PM
How much more detail do you want me to add? :D

I'm spilling trade secrets here you guys! :lol:

speedpenguin
05-22-2006, 04:07 PM
Man, that looks awesome! Good job.

MessyHonda
05-22-2006, 04:21 PM
so im guessing thoes are better than the pacesetters?...can we trade...il put some cash on top of that...or better yet u can buy the headers and then il send u the cash once u finish moding them...lol good job bro

A20A1
05-22-2006, 04:29 PM
Yes this header is much much better then Pacesetter however it does not come with EGR hookup.

I got this header for $30 because of a defective flex pipe.
Upon inspection I saw damage from being installed on a lowered car and also a small hole in one of the welds. And one more thing, the O2 sensor plug seems stripped. Or the O2 sensor port is striped. Either way, this is just a test header to see how much work is involved in getting one to fit, it will function perfectly though when I'm through fixing it up.

I intent to replace that section of leaky flex pipe with 2" straight pipe... the last pipe by the way is 2" so that will be perfect for insterting into a cat or larger diameter pipe.

Next up is the outer cylinders #4 and #1... these will be the only ones I cut to bring closer...
I need to close a 0.625" gap, 4" above the secondary flange. That should give me about 1" (0.50" on each side) less of a gap up by the head flange.
cross your fingers boys and girls :D
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2676.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/DSCN2681.jpg

so im guessing thoes are better than the pacesetters?...can we trade...il put some cash on top of that...or better yet u can buy the headers and then il send u the cash once u finish moding them...lol good job bro
If I'm sure this header will fit with minimal issues on the accord once modified, I'd still need you to buy the header and pay for the mods before I can do the work... I have no extra cash to build another one and then sell it. I'd say you'd spend no more then $250. Assuming I can get the A20 flange for cheap in stainless.

A20A1
02-13-2007, 08:03 PM
BMC Racing A Series Flange on order... who knows what will happen next :)

speedpenguin
02-13-2007, 08:05 PM
Hopefully something fun!

A20A1
02-13-2007, 08:12 PM
Nevermind, looks like the order is on hold till I can transfer the money out of my bank and into paypal. :(

ilikevtecs
02-13-2007, 08:15 PM
sorry to ruin the thread i want to say awsome work keep up the good work and thank god 4 people like u that make stuff happen
like getting my money back! just reminding you!

A20A1
02-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Keep it in the PM's please :)

hotdoghogie
02-13-2007, 08:51 PM
hmmm crazy... why all the work though?

A20A1
02-13-2007, 09:06 PM
Basicly I scored a cheap F-Series header and now have it almost ready to bolt to the A20. It's not a simple bolt on though, port size and spacing and shape are different as well as the angle the A-Pipe sits at.

I liked that the Megan primaries were a bit longer then DC or PS.

Hopefully the how-to opens more doors to aftermarket then simply PaceSetter or DC. There are also Greddy and Mugen headers for the F-Series as well as Megan, they just need a little reworking to fit, but it's really not that hard if you have the right tools on hand... which I don't but I'm in no rush.

MessyHonda
02-13-2007, 10:16 PM
nice to see some progress.

SQ is the SQUAD
02-14-2007, 05:30 PM
not to thread jack or anything but the other day while i was setting up my tools on my new garage i came accross my old honda 954 header. well i got a wild idea of modding this to my a20a flange. since the 954 dosent have a soild one piece frame it wil be pretty easy to space the runners. just not sure if the piping was big enough. gotta get a ruler and measure it

A20A1
02-19-2007, 02:47 PM
Sounds interesting. :)

I ordered my flange

$46.00 from BMC Racing (http://www.bmcrace.com/index.php)

... I can't wait to get it, just wish I had a 3G to run the bugger when I'm finished.

SQ is the SQUAD
02-19-2007, 05:41 PM
took a few quick pics of the 954 headers. i can get them to work, it'll take a lil modification but its a good start

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5711/Picture62.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/128/Picture69.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6049/Picture67.jpg

A20A1
02-19-2007, 05:44 PM
ahaha, looks just as convoluted as my first header I made :)


Definately a good start though. How long are the pipes?

And whats that extra port for?


Use a spare head and weld the pipes while the flange is bolted to the head to keep the flange from warping.

mkymonkey
02-19-2007, 05:58 PM
im guessing since its a motorcycle header....its to split the exhaust to two mufflers

SQ is the SQUAD
02-19-2007, 06:19 PM
the extra port has some things in it that was hooked up to the throttle, i guess to keep backpressure or something. anyways i was conna cut that section off, cut off the cone at the end of the pipe and leave the 2.5" opening. so it will basically be a 4-2-1

A20A1
02-19-2007, 06:34 PM
took a few quick pics of the 954 headers. i can get them to work, it'll take a lil modification but its a good start

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5711/Picture62.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/128/Picture69.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6049/Picture67.jpg



Wow what an interesting peice of engineering... it changes the merge to help low end... I'm sure taking it off all together though will help top end.
http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mchonda/00929.html#03

It actually changes between Sequential Pairing 180* 1 & 2 . 3 & 4 , and Non-Sequential 360* 1 & 4 . 2 & 3

Sequential and Non-Sequential is a term I see used by SMSP when refering to their headers.

180 VS 360
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/180.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/360.jpg

Problem is I see people saying that the valve increases backpressure and that is what helps the low end... they think it's just a restrictor (http://www.jdm-per4mance.com/images/hondaECV%5B1%5D.JPG)but actually it's switching between 180 and 360 so backpressure should be the same.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/CBR929.jpg

found a nicer full picture, I guess depending how you have to install it will determine which pairing you will get to use.

.
.
.

SQ is the SQUAD
02-19-2007, 06:47 PM
mike, your a research monster

A20A1
02-19-2007, 09:32 PM
mike, your a research monster


Yes yes, if only to get our little A20 to move a little faster.

MessyHonda
02-20-2007, 01:00 AM
Yes yes, if only to get our little A20 to move a little faster.
thats the name of the game :thumbup:

speedpenguin
02-20-2007, 05:31 AM
That thing looks amazing!

firefighterwhite89
05-04-2014, 02:41 AM
so did this ever work? Did you ever finish this?

gfrg88
05-04-2014, 06:21 PM
I believe it worked. Look back a page for the pics.