Anybody Tried Water / Methanol injection ?

[jteuton]

I have seen this used on turbo cars before and quite a few n/a cars. Without a doubt I know it gives more power to turbos but would you see any gains on a n/a motor? The water injection cools the air significantly which makes more power but you have water vapour in there too which won't make power so I was thinking the two would cancel each other out. Spearco makes one if you want to check out their site. Any comments?

ok check out this site.....it has great detail but the hp claims are high......does this actually work?.....
www.aquatune.com/overview.html

yeah it is a single cam but i have no air and no cruise control.....i have a big hole that needs filling so the location wouldn't bother me i just don't know much about physics so i was wondering if their statement about making the fuel burn more completly and cleaning out carbon deposits and letting you advance your timing are all true or not?

[Immeraufdemhund]

well it sounds nice, but question is wee are you going to add it? you'd have to bolt up that water resevoir some were. I emailed some one over there today so we'll see. I asked him if it would work with our engine, A20A3, carbed and injected. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i said we have SOHC.
I could ask my step dad, he is like a phd in fluid dynamics and that sort of stuff. He worked for nasa at one point and for the air force about that sort of stuff. He helps me occasionally to get more power into my car with air/ fuel mixture. He still wants some work done on my intake, and my exhaust, buti have to save up money before he and i can do anything.

why didn't the motor last? was it because they were racing or because of the aquatune?

[smufguy]

i dont understand how water vapour makes ur block not rust. THe problem is, watervapour is gonna be hella dense and its also gonna NOT burn when the gas ignites. I dont get the concept and chemical shit behind this Aquatune.

Doest anyone know about this in detail?

[jteuton]

well i do know that your engine naturally sweats and you see water condensation shoot out the pipes when you first crank it up so no problems with severe rust so far. You have to understand that most of the water turns to steam and does eventually evaporate therefore rust isn't possible. If i were to run the setup i would stop shooting water through it for about 5 minutes before I cut the car off to make sure its all burnt. But the water has a severe cooling effect on the entire intake and combustion chamber letting you advance timing, suck in more air, mix in more fuel, spray my nos longer cause temperature build up won't be as much. I think i'm going to try it I was just scared of any repercussion or consequences it might cause. A20A1 is right that gobs of power can be made but at what price? I sure don't want to kill the block but maybe if you shoot a fine mist the block won't see so much torture.

[Immeraufdemhund]

well keep us posted on everything for that then!

[rallyeNate]

here is another link,
http://www.racetep.com/wik.html#nah20
this might of been said, sorry if i am stepping on someones toes.
Basically water injections doesn't realy add power but, gives power back to the engines by decreasing the engine combustion camber temp and keeps A/F more dense. the really addtanges is in forced induction application, more boost, more timming, less fever of knock.

[Site]

Thanks, Nate - I hadn't seen that link. I'm following this water injection thread. This is the first I've heard of it.

By the way, www.racetep.com is a good resource for Weber stuff.

[jteuton]

I think it would work on N/a......Reread what you wrote......keeps the a/f more dense.....a more denser air and fuel ratio = more power.......you can advance the timing without worrying about ping therefore gaining even more power. I also like the cleaning part that it does. Just add water when you add gas at fillup. I really love this idea and I'm jumping in head first

[smufguy]

nice, thats a really interesting concept. and having water, man that is even more better.

[POS carb]

I thought the whole purpose of water injection was to reduce detonation so you can run more advance

[Immeraufdemhund]

my step dad said that he wouldn't spend his money on it, but that it is a good idea. (he's a cheap skate, that's why.) but i'd say i'm going to save up for it. how much?

[Site]

Originally posted by POS carb
I thought the whole purpose of water injection was to reduce detonation so you can run more advance

More advance - my car likes the sound of that.

[Immeraufdemhund]

i got some feed back from aquatune. They said that it will run for the system about is 399.95 + 19.85 shipping. i personally think that it would be possible to make your own. They have this stupid ultrasonic sound blaster thing on theirs, but i dont think that it's really worth that. I think that we could possibly make one a bunch cheaper. It really doens't look all that complex. You can pay by mail, phone, or paypal. They have a site that has a bunch of check list crap. It sounds like one of their people needs to test out our car and fine tune the aquatune system before putting it in. I'd really like to find out what really needs to be done, or just make my own. I have a friend who was told to take off his air filter on his carb, then rev his engine really high, pour a pop can of water in the carb kinda slow. He said it was similar to water blasting the inside and cleaning it out. My question is why cant we have somethign similar by just making it our self?

http://www.aquatune.com/overview.html
that's one part that sounds kinda resonable.
http://www.aquatune.com/index.asp
they just have it shown mounted on something and working.. Nothing special. Is anyone going to try this. Idont have the money to try it out yet. And final web site. This is the check list they have to check over.
http://www.aquatune.com/checklist.html
oops. One more site. This one might help us to build one.
http://www.510again.com/articles/watering/watering.html

[jteuton]

Ok really don't spend that kind of money on that. I think their whole tuning fork thing is a little wacky but water injection really does work. All you need is a tank, a place to mount it, hose, a fogger nozzle and a way to hook it to the engine to control when the pump will pump it ( like a throttle switch ) or get creative and hook it to vacuum. That much money is definetly whack.....tell them to stick that fork up their ass.

[dXsquared]

I am an avid paintballer...I know that CO2 is very cold when its sprayed from my bottle with my on off valve... I was just wondering what CO2 injection would do to my car is i ran it through a weber intake adapter? i could fab somthing up through the firewall... use my 20 oz. on/off valve, a remote line, and some kind of nozzle at the end for spraying into the carb.. will this give me some what of a boost??
Travis

no one has any insight on this wild idea???
Travis

i can have my 20 oz bottle at 3/4 spray for like 10 minutes.... and thats alot of gas comming out.. i know it wont break down, but wont it force more air into the carb? i guess the only way to know is to try it...
Travis

[1988starter]

I don;t think it would work because (I could be wrong.) CO2 does not break up the same as nitrous so it would not release the oxygen at a low enough temp. As for cooling I doubt it would last long enough to do anything.

[Sabz5150]

It's called CryO2, and it uses CO2 to cool the air as it enters the throttle body. No idea how well this works though...

[Accord7SE_i]

It will not work. Its not condencive enough

[Justin86]

Yea it is the CryO2. It is a new product with some mixed reviews. It should work but what what I have heared is that the cost out weight the benefits. The kit is like $300 or something and probably a pain in the ass to install.

[dXsquared]

no kit for me.. i already have a tank, and hoses wont be alot.. i might lookinto a switch(electric) operated valve tho...

Travis

[mindlos]

Are you trying to put out the fire in the cylinders? Anyway, it better be a little CO2. It would make sense if somebody knew the proportion of C02 being injected per stroke of each cylinder and the delta T it produces. That way some mathematical modeler can solve for % benefit.

[sanjay]

Originally posted by mindlos
Are you trying to put out the fire in the cylinders? Anyway, it better be a little CO2. It would make sense if somebody knew the proportion of C02 being injected per stroke of each cylinder and the delta T it produces. That way some mathematical modeler can solve for % benefit.

agreeed, maybe you might need re-tuning after that... :S

[DeathRat]

Originally posted by DXHATCHBACK
no one has any insight on this wild idea???


Travis
DEI's CryO2 components are fully tested. They're a little expensive but if you plan on racing this car at the track, then CO2 is NOT for you as tracks treat CO2 injection exactly like NOS!:eek:
Any questions, just ask.....
:smokin: Here's DEI's site: Design Engineering INC {DEI} (http://www.designengineering.com/)

[CivicEater]

Originally posted by DXHATCHBACK
no one has any insight on this wild idea???


Travis

I'd have to say it's a pretty bad idea.

CO2 is a gas used by firefighters to PUT OUT FIRES.. it's heavier than oxygen, and does not promote combustion..

EDIT:

didn't read the whole thread.. I'm repeating someone..

now.. if you could use the CO2 to COOL the intake manifold (oh that's right, you're working with stone-age technology :D ) then you might be onto something (like using dry ice to cool an intercooler during waiting periods at the track)

[2twisty]

CO2 chilling is more common in the turbo world.

I will likely be buying a system for my Turboed Miata soon, to spray on the intercooler.

You don't ever want to put the CO2 INTO the engine like you do with nitrous, but you can use a heat exchanger to cool the intake charge with CO2.

The benefit to N/A cars is minimal. Since the temperature of the intake charge will never be much more than the temp of the ambient air, you don't have the problem that CO2 chilling solves.

Of course, we all know that cooler air = more power in any car, but the benefits on an N/A are are minimal, and aren't worth $300- $500.

However, on a turbo car, when you start approaching the 200 degree farenheit mark for intake temps, well, you start running into a wall because the engine will tend to detonate the fuel early because of the hot air.

So, you cool the intercooler down by spraying CO2 on it and the intake temps drop. In my car, it could be worth as much as 20-50 horsepower at the wheels!

In an N/A car, you might get 5-10HP max. Not worth it for the price.

Chad

[A20A1]

They usually use a fire extinguisher to spray the intercooler before each run down the track.

I'd say you're better of spraying a mist of cold water at a foam filter... that way the air is cooled as it passes thru the filter.

I wouldn't suggest spraying a K&N since the oil will keep the water from soaking in which means only a small area would be affected which might lower the cooling effect, but who knows.

[KaMiKaZeE]

Well water injection systems can be used though, they use them on some supercharged dragsters. It has the advantage of cooling the intake charge and also slightly raising the compression at the same time, since water won't compress like air, but use too much and you'll just hinder combustion, and if you really dump it you could potentially hydro-lock.

Yeah I know that Mike, I'm just saying you could do direct water-injection if you wanted too.

[smufguy]

Liquid nitrogen around ur intake piping and ur intake manifold :lol :lol (((heheh sorry about the sarcasm))

[BootMachine]

IMO....wont work

CO2 will hinder the boom...not help it!

Pump in pure oxygen in liquid form and LOTSA fuel...that will give you a better burn.....lotsa fuel though...run lean and BOOM!

[smufguy]

liquid oxygen??? Why do u think we use Nitrous Oxide (N2O)?? Ur feeding oxygen into ur cylinder and the Nitrogen is used to cool down ur cyliner walls due to the temperature increase which is the result of more oxygen combustion.
YO Mike put a ac unit in the track of the Air induction, heheeh u got ice cold air :D

Well this goes for all the turbo guys out there who wants to drop their charge air temp like nuts. I was reading about Alcohol injection and seems like some of them use it with their fuel, i mean they mix it with their fuel ( i dont know why) and about 95% of them, inject it in front of the TB. I wanna go for it. its methanol by the way.
I dont know how much should be sprayed for what psi and i know you can deduce what psi or CC's of fuel is needed for one psi. So my question is, would a carb fuel pump be useful in pumping the alcohol? THey run a max of 5psi and no more and a normal of just 3 psi. Also, i know i have to have a seperate container for alcohol cause alcohol and gasoline dont mix so its not good to add any alcohol in the gas tank.
So here is my idea. I was gonna use the stock injectors and design my own charge pipe with a injector boss to hold my injector for alcohol injection. I dont know if the injector will be ruined because of pure methanol, but i still have to read about it and see how actually it is done.
So yeah, if u guys have any idea of it, lemme know. :)

[shepherd79]

it is very dangerous mix. you have to have the ration just right.

[smufguy]

hmmm....... maybe i still did not get to the part of readin whats the ratio then. i know a lot of dragsters here use alcohol injection to drop their charger temp and some of em pick up about 30hp doing so.

[Justin86]

shit why not just run methanol, that would give you some fucking put you in the back of your seats power. There is better stuff to use the alcohol injection that is easier to use and safer. Like just running a shot of N20, that stuff if -60, that would have a cooling effect.

[smufguy]

i have seen guys use nitrous to cool down their FMIC, yeah, those fuckheads are pretty rich. Which is a pretty cool idea, but the Nitrous does not break down at room temprerature, let alone in a below 100 deg weather. So i dont know. I cant run pure methanol, cause i dont wanna fuck up my gas tank insides, besides, where on earth am i gonna be able to find a methanol station and find some moneuy to fill 15.9 gallons of it :) hehehehe, i wanna cool down my charge air as much as i can.

I might be running Nitrous to spool up my turbo, so i dont know what im gonna do with them both. I might juse use single fogger and use about 10 shots of nitrous and some alcohol. I mean, at 3psi of methanol pressure, its not hard to compute how much CC's of alcohol i need via the standalone. Cause with TEC 3 i can do anything i want. I am gonna read more about Alcohol injection before i can talk more about it ;)

[AccordEpicenter]

So my question is, would a carb fuel pump be useful in pumping the alcohol?

Absolutely not, you need a special pump to run alcohol... why not run straight water injection? much safer and easier to tune... aquamist is the brand tha comes to mind, ive seen guys run 17psi on a stock block Nissan Sentra SER (older one) with aquamist and good managemant... water injection is the shit

[smufguy]

Absolutely not, you need a special pump to run alcohol... why not run straight water injection? much safer and easier to tune... aquamist is the brand tha comes to mind, ive seen guys run 17psi on a stock block Nissan Sentra SER (older one) with aquamist and good managemant... water injection is the shit

water does not burn, and hence carbon deposits are the byproducts. jack merkel performance race engine builders had customers who ran water injection in their grand nationals and developed shit load of carbon buildup, these guys run pro stock and 11 sec street motors. Now they are run Alcohol injection with no problem, because alcohol burns so thats extra boost in power ;)

[AccordEpicenter]

hmm thats odd, because in all the cars ive seen that had blown a headgasket and started burning coolant, the cylinders that were burning water were much more carbon free than the cylinders that were not, the steam loosens deposits and cleans parts.

[soljaboy2000]

What???? you mean water as in H2O???? Wow I didn't know cars could run off water.....LOL

[Oyvind Ryeng]

It's a common trick in Scandinavia, especially Sweden, to inject water and/or methanol into the engine to keep the knocking away. They run a high-pressure pump, an injector with a really small outlet mounted between the TB and the IC, and keep the water and/or methanol in a tank in the engine bay, usually the window-washer-fluid reservoar. When the water/methanol is mixed with the airstream going into the engine, it evaporates, and thus steal heat from the air. Just keep in mind that methanol will ruin everything made of aluminium, so it's not exactly a good idea to use it right before shutting off the engine.

[Sean]

hmm i think windshiled washer fluid is the perfect mix of water and alchohol and its cheap as shit if you buy it in 50 gallon containers. like $20 or so. and typically a 5 gallon tank of windehsiled washer fluid will last 2 tanks of gas and helps kill the knock for sure.

[smufguy]

i dont know about the dye in the windshield washer fluid, but sure as hell its not gonna improve combustion. What kinda Alcohol is that? Its not methanol for sure. Man.......... i really really really need to get this reading done before i can start jumping around topics to lower the charge air temp.

[Justin86]

well how much water are we talking about being used for this. So you use the windsheild sprayer system but have a high pressure pump. I have seen them do it as a poor man front mount intercooler sprayer but with just the stock pump. What about the weight of everything and how long you can go before you have to refill it????????

[Accordtheory]

Smufguy, you do need to do more reading... First, water injection does Not cause carbon deposits. Water is H20, do you see a C atom there? Water "steam cleans" the carbon deposits OUT of your engine. How this shit works is NOT by "enhancing" combustion, it's just that water has a very high specific heat and that is how a relatively small amount of water can lower the charge air and in cylinder compression temp to the point of killing detonation. Methanol has a lower specific heat than h2o but is more volatile, so it lowers charge air temps easily, but water is better for lower in cylinder compression temp, although methanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline which helps kill knock too. Most systems are calibrated to inject a mixture of both. By the way, for any doofers who want to do this, injecting methanol into a non forced induction engine will only slow you down. Methanol has a lower btu/mass content than gasoline, which means you are only displacing oxygen with the increased mass necessary to maintain the same a/f ratio
Knowledge is power

[smufguy]

bro the latent heat of alcohol is greater, it absorbs more heat than water for a given amount. i have seen a lot of guys here with their grandnationals and twin turbo big blocks run nothing but alcohol injectrion, water injection is for startes, not for big guys. :) and yeah im talking to this guy who builds racing engines and couple of his customers. They like the effectiveness of alcohol, besides most of em gained about 30hp by switching to alcohol injection.

PS. Yeah water does not have Carbon in it, :uh: but its not the chemical decomposition of water i was talking about. that that high cylinder temp, water in the form of steam is just merely non-existant.

[Accordtheory]

link (http://waterinjection.info/documents/turbowhitepaper/waterinjection.htm)

[A20A1]

http://www.racetep.com/wik.html

http://www.turbomirage.com/water2.html

http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html

[smufguy]

thanks mike, and to add to his, here are some more

Some information

http://www.turbocalculator.com/alcohol-injection.html

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

How tos

http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/alcohol.html

http://members.aol.com/dwjatwwk/alcohol.html

http://wrxhackers.com/alchystuff/

http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

Some kits

http://www.wrxevolution.com/alcoholinjection.asp

http://www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm

[snoopyloopy]

Say you pour a bottle of rubbing alcohol into your gas tank. What would/should you expect?

[smufguy]

Say you pour a bottle of rubbing alcohol into your gas tank. What would/should you expect?

thanks for bringing a dead thread to life. No u cannot pour a bottle of alcohol into ur gas tank. 1) it will corrode ur tank lining 2) it does nothing to your car's performance.

Dont think ur gonna run ur car like the dragsters running Methanol. THeir whole engine and ignition is build around Methanol as a fuel, NOT as a fuel additive.

Alcohol is used to lower the intake air temperature which is squirted long before the air reaches the intake manifold, so yeah, it wont do anything for you besides, eat ur injector seals, ur fuel hose and any rubber and plastic shit it comes in contact with. Besides, alcohol in raw form does not have any lubricant to lube fuel system and thats why its bad.

[AccordEpicenter]

I just bought a kit to try it, i was wondering if any of the other turbo accord guys have tried it yet (doubt it, but just wondering) im prolly gonna run either 50/50 denatured/water, or 50/50 meth/water

[Accordtheory]

I was trying to set up a system that had a dedicated pump, tank, injector, and injector controller, (pulse width of map vs rpm, the whole thing would basically be identical to a fuel system) but eventually said f it because I was too lazy to figure out a way to make it 100% failsafe. It would need to have pressure switches and pulse width monitoring, with the ability to trigger a boost cut upon failure to qualify for my definition of failsafe. I would hate to blow my engine because of something like that..that would be almost as bad as going lean because your tank was low and your pickup tube got starved halfway down the track..

be sure to always run distilled water, obviously, and let us know how it goes.. I guess this is becoming more popular with evo guys these days, but even with knock sensing, I don't know if I'd try very many of these systems on the market these days.. except maybe that aquamist system, which is very similar to what I wanted to build, programmable and if I remember correctly, over $1k..

[TheWatcher]

I just bought a kit to try it, i was wondering if any of the other turbo accord guys have tried it yet (doubt it, but just wondering) im prolly gonna run either 50/50 denatured/water, or 50/50 meth/water
IIRC methanol is HIGHLY corrosive. I don't know anything about running a turbo, but I would make sure all the parts are compatible w/ methanol, you don't want to be leaking that stuff all over your car.

Peace.

[AccordEpicenter]

the kit is 100% meth compatable. Im thinking it should allow hardcore timing maps while still on pump gas

[newaccorddriver]

in a simple explanation, what is methonal injecion anyways?

[Vanilla Sky]

i'm considering the aquamist system in my N/A KA24E in my truck. i'm looking more at the economy side of it, not so much the performance side.

accord theory, what parts had you acquired for WI? while i'd love to start out with even a lower aquamist kit, i don't see it happening. if i can get the bulk of the parts in a "kit" from someone, i'd be far ahead of the game.

as far as injecting alcohol with the water, i would say avoid it. with a properly tuned engine, it's not going to add any performance.

one thing to remember, though. more water, less fuel. don't pull a vishnu tuning and add more fuel.

[AccordEpicenter]

they actually say the more methanol percentage you add into the water, the more performance gain you get, but the less knock resistance also. So if you ran straight water you would have the best knock resistance but maybe not the best performance, so a 50 50 mix seems to be the best compromise. Im gonna try putting some timing back in to run and not be soo conservative.

[Mike's89AccordLX]

Note to self: A company will say their stuff works the best just to make a buck. For instance "The Tornado Fuel Saver." I hope everyone finally realizes what a load of crap that was. Just another thing to waste money on to make someone else richer off of the little people.

-Mike

[smufguy]

in a simple explanation, what is methonal injecion anyways?

it is a method to drop the intake air temperature there by enabling you to run higher boost and advanced ignition timing without the worry of detonation. Dropping the intake air temperature enables denser air and better Air-fuel ratio and there by you make more power in the combination of more boost and ignition timing.

[Accordtheory]

in a simple explanation, what is methonal injecion anyways?

when you cannot reach maximum brake torque by advancing timing without first encountering the knock threshold, your octane is too low for the given combination..injecting h20/methanol artificially raises the octane by absorbing heat that would contribute to knock.

[AccordEpicenter]

sorry mods, looks like i forgot about this thread


/me

[A20A1]

they actually say the more methanol percentage you add into the water, the more performance gain you get, but the less knock resistance also. So if you ran straight water you would have the best knock resistance but maybe not the best performance, so a 50 50 mix seems to be the best compromise. Im gonna try putting some timing back in to run and not be soo conservative.

I thought they have real time mixture adjustment with two seperate tanks.

[Accordtheory]

sorry mods, looks like i forgot about this thread


/me
this thread was starting to be legit, then they had to go compile all this old shit together..I Hate when they do that..now people are going to have to sift through all kinds of bullshit to read any real info.. They should have just deleted the old thread.

[Accordtheory]

I thought they have real time mixture adjustment with two seperate tanks.
I would just inject straight distilled h20..the power is in the tuning, not the small reduction in charge air temp with methanol vs h20's reduction in in cylinder temp..
I think if you get your a/f around 12:1 and can reach mbt without knock, you're all good..

[AccordEpicenter]

Exactly, you dont really see too much performance gain running just the water/alky, you get the performance gain from advancing your timing over what you could before because it cools the cylinders down preventing detonation, which race gas is more resistant to detonation over pump gas, so its like the next best thing to race gas.