cylinder head rebuild

[86-accord-lxi]

I have been having a problem with my 86 lxi smoking upon start up for about 5to 10 minutes after sitting overnight. I did a compression test, although I did not do it with the throttle wide open like I recently found you are supposed to do on 3 geez when testing for compression. The results were 130psi on cylinder1, 130psi on cylinder 2, 125psi on cylinder 3, and 150 psi on cylinder 4
I can get the valve seats re-cut, new valve stem seals, 3 angle valve job, and mill for $150 including parts tax and labor. I was told by my uncle who has been a chevy mechanic for 20 years, That rebuidling the top end will be too much for the bottom end, and The bottom end will crap out. I have known people who had the top end rebuilt, and not the bottom end, Their cars seemed to be just fine, Never had any problems. So, Should I have the top end rebuilt ? Then, When I have the money, The bottom end ? How much would it be to have the bottom end rebuilt ? If I re-tested the compression with the throttle wide open, WOuld it change the results ? I wanted to hear what you guys had to say since you are more experinced with honda, and
3geez in particular. My uncle only works on chevy's, Never worked on a honda
in his life. Sorry this thread is so long, But this may be the thing that ends my realtionship with my 3g. I don't want to sink too much $ into this car, and not be able to get what I have in it back later on.
If it matters, I had all the spark plugs pulled at the same time when testing compression,
I cranked it 7 times with the ignition, I did not disconnect the coil wire from the distributor, I did
disconnect the spark plug wires at the same time. Should I re-test ?

[88Accord-DX]

Retest it with the throttle wide open. I'll say a few more things tomm.

[AZmike]

Disable the injectors to keep the extra fuel out of your oil. Retest wet and dry (with the throttle open). This will give you a better idea how the rings are doing. Whatever the results I would probably at least re-ring the engine at the same time as getting the head rebuilt.

[86-accord-lxi]

What would it take to re-ring ? What parts, and tools will I need, How much should it cost ?

[AZmike]

Aside from what you'll need for the head you'll need a set of rings ($40+), a cylinder hone ($20), ring compressor ($10), and an oil pan gasket($20). You will need a torque wrench for the connecting rods. While everything is apart you may find other parts that will need to be replaced--this list is the bare minimum.

Basic proceedure:
After the head is off you pull the pan, take the pistons and rods out, hone the bores, clean the bores thoroughly, remove rings, clean grooves, install new rings, install pistons, replace oil pan, install head.

[Oldblueaccord]

Your uncle is right as far as chevy go and other domestics. A valve job will make the rings leak and burn oil on an older motor.

Reason being like on 350's and such they use cheap cast iron rings Honda does not. The rings dont wear like a Chevy and more importantly dont wear the bore out either.

I have done valve jobs without doing rerings on Hondas it works older domestics it don't.

Sounds to me oil smoke on start up is usually valve seals first and thats even true on your uncles chevy.

If you could list your cars milage as well please?


wp

[davke]

Disable the injectors to keep the extra fuel out of your oil. Retest wet and dry (with the throttle open). This will give you a better idea how the rings are doing. Whatever the results I would probably at least re-ring the engine at the same time as getting the head rebuilt.

then i was testing my old a20 the throttle did not make any sense, openm or not, the tests were the same. what does it mean?

[AZmike]

It doesn't mean too much. If you had let the engine turn over fewer times you might have ended up with incorrectly low values.

[AZmike]

I have done valve jobs without doing rerings on Hondas it works older domestics it don't.
wp

You may have been able to get away with it, but I tried just doing the head on an A20 and had to do the rings also to stop the smoking. It might be necessary in this case--it might not, but I know I'd rather spend the money on the rings and a gasket instead of risking needing another head gasket and day to tear the engine down again.

[exyst]

since you mentioned. going ahead with the re-ringing the piston. let me ask this: when removing the pistons to re-ring should the crankshaft be turned and a new set of rod bearing be install or is it not need if its in pretty decent condition

[FyreDaug]

if they are within specs, there is no need to replace them... unless ypou wanna spend the money

[86-accord-lxi]

215,000 miles on the original engine. I appreciate everybodys help and info.
I will probably re-ring if it's pretty straight forward, and not too hard.
The engine doesn't use much oil, maybe half a quart every 1500 miles.
Anything else I should know before I get into this ?

[88Accord-DX]

Here is some technical jargon to go with this thread. Look at the top of the cylinder bore for a ring ridge. If there is one that your finger nail can hang on, sometimes it is wise to use an inside telescoping gauge & outside micrometer to measure cylinder bore wear, taper & out-of-roundness..If the rigde isn't bad, should be able to use standard size rings & your old pistons. I like to also measure the piston skirt just below the piston pin for wear limits to specs with outside micrometer.

Plastigauge your rod bearings to see if their in tolerance. Clean the piston ring lands on the pistons with a broken off piece of the old ring. When honing the cylinder bores, use 50-60 crosshatch pattern, wash real good with soapy water & clean them of fine metal particals.

Check ring end gap & space them according to manufacture instructions. Don't mix up the rod end caps. Use a vacuum line big enough to fit over rod bolts when installing the piston back in the bore. Use assembly lube on the outside of the rod bearings before installing piston too. Hope that helps some, good luck

[Cap'n Carageous]

My saga is is here: http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?p=608846#post608846

[86-accord-lxi]

Well, I decided to have the head rebuilt. I started to pull it yesterday,
It's half way there, I didn't get to do much today, But tomorrow I should have it out. I took time to tag and label everything so It all goes back easy.
Whoever changed the alt, power steering and a/c belts last, tightened the hell out of all the adjusting bolts and, on top of that stripped most of them.
I managed to get them all out using pb blaster and vise grips, I hate when this happens. The water pump bolts were all super tight and stripped also.
I still have one bolt left to get of the water pump. I figured while I was in there I would change the timing belt and all seals, along with the water pump.
I turned the crank counter clockwise to get no.1 cylinder at TDC, I am a little weary of the "white mark on the flywheel" . The flywheel has 5 marks close to each other, There's 1 short one, 1 a little longer, 1 that's longest, a number 5, and then another short one. None of them are white. According
to the camshaft pulley It's at TDC, The pointer for the flywheel markings
is right on the longest mark on the flywheel. I assume the longest mark is supposed to be white ? The engine was running good before I started this project, And the timing was correct. I still have to bust the crankshaft pulley
loose, I hope I can accomplish this with a breaker bar, I don't have an air compressor and impact wrench. Getting down and dirty with the head, I have removed a lot of stuff from the engine bay to give myself room to work.
This also gives me the chance to thoroughly inspect all the cooling lines, power steering lines, etc... So far the only line that needs replacement is the
big hose under the intake that connects to that big black box thing, Not sure what that is. I also have a chance to clean the engine bay. I was thinking of getting one of those $50 steam cleaners they sell at wallmart So far I have only cleaned a little with engine degreaser. Im a little worried about using steam cleaner though, I have heard stories of steam cleaners ruining seals and stuff. While Im at it, I am also going to thoroughly clean the intake with
carb cleaner. I hope the time and money is well spent on this car. She ran good, But smoked a little upon start up. Eventually I will rebuild the bottom end, Just don't have the time or $ right now. Plus I am pretty sure the smoking problem is from worn valve stem seal. The car didn't use much oil,
and I recently discovered that the hose going into the oil pan is leaking,and so is the oil pan gasket, So that is most likely where the oil consumption is happening. I should have everything back together and running within 3 or 4 days. I 'll let you guys know the results.
Oh yeah, I am also putting in a new radiator, and new rear upper control arms !
Also, While I am all down and dirty with the car, I am going to do the legend alternator mod !
I'll keep you all posted. Wish I could get pics, But all I have is a cheap camera phone. It's not even worth it.

[88Accord-DX]

Don't forget to use a new cam seal & distributor O-ring & valve cover gasket. Follow the torquing senquence on the head bolts, first torque is 22 foot lbs, second is 49 foot lbs. Yeah, the smoking was more than likely the valve stem seals. If you had little more money, new timing belt, tensioner & water pump would be nice since your in there.. Good luck getting the crank bolt loose, it's on there.

[86-accord-lxi]

Don't forget to use a new cam seal & distributor O-ring & valve cover gasket. Follow the torquing senquence on the head bolts, first torque is 22 foot lbs, second is 49 foot lbs. Yeah, the smoking was more than likely the valve stem seals. If you had little more money, new timing belt, tensioner & water pump would be nice since your in there.. Good luck getting the crank bolt loose, it's on there.

Got the new timing belt, cam seal, crank seal, tensioner, and water pump.
Im also going to replace the oil pan gasket because mine's leaking. Also the hose that goes to the oil pan. Im also replacing the brake master cylinder and booster, The original master cylinder was shot, So Im replacing the booster also. I think they were the factory originals. I am also replacing the brake flex hoses. Everything I got has a lifetime warranty. I've got my hands full for a little while. I just hope it's worth it. The carfax report was super clean and clear, There were only 2 previous owners. But, They were girls ...
The top end gasket set I got had valve cover gasket, Intake and exhaust gaskets, and distributor O-ring. I think I got it all covered, I'll let you all know how it all turns out. After all this, This car better treat me right ! Appreciate the help.