PDA

View Full Version : Serious problem guys! Please try to help diagnose.



maxsideburn
03-26-2006, 05:42 PM
I started up my car today so that I could take it to the carwash to vacuum it out. Well I cranked it over quickly, it usually starts pretty fast since I have the Blaster 2 coil. It spun over, and sorta sputtered for a few minutes, before making a strange louder sputtering sound and then dying. Well a few seconds later I notice that there is a large puff of white smoke comming from my hood!

I pop the hood and find that the source of the smoke is my intake! My CAI's filter, which is down under the battery, is smoking! Well I popped open the CAI and took a look inside, lots of smoke came out, and when I smelled it it smelled like gasoline, a lot.

I cranked her over again a minute later and she starts up just fine, but runs like ass! The idle is stuck at around 2800rpm, and when I give it more gas, like to 3500rpm, it goes up and only comes down to like 3200rpm. Also the exhaust sounds funny, like almost a very faint popping sound.

Well I disconnected the lower part of the intake, reset my ECU by unplugging my battery for a few minutes, and re-filled my coolant system to max.

Well I start her up and the same thing! Kinda feels like she's running on 3 cylinders, at high rpm. I really don't know what to think, I've never had smoke come out of my intake on any car before!

My only thought is not a pleasant one. I had noticed since I bought the car that when I would accelerate hard I'd hear what sounded like a belt squealing, but I never thought it could be the timing belt because I'd be mistimed the first time I took off. Well my only possible thought now is that the car could have jumped timing you think? How would I be able to tell.

Any and all thoughts are welcome guys, I have class in the morning and lots of stuff to do this week. Either way I need to figure out what this is and fix it ASAP. Thanks.

Deadhead
03-26-2006, 06:28 PM
that's sure an interesting issue.... did you lose any coolant? How is your oil level?

white usually means your headgasket.... but if you were smelling gasoline like crazy, then maybe your getting a shit ton too much? like maybe your FPR took a crap. Is any smoke coming out your exhaust?

B16KILLA
03-26-2006, 06:49 PM
That might be pretty serious, I have a 93 gsr that did the exact same thing your describing. It would crank fine but most the time not start but the times it would'nt start once I put the key in the off position it would puff smoke from the intake and followed witha list of electrical problems like the speedometer needle melting off,seat belt retractors fried,no horn, the car runs like you say but while it's running I smell burning wires and gas. Its been sitting in my backyard since.....But it's not my prob anymore the car is going to belong to my gf's dad pretty soon. You might have a short to ground.

maxsideburn
03-26-2006, 08:05 PM
I was kinda thinking that too! It does almost seem like there's an electrical problem. That or my timing slipped :(

smufguy
03-26-2006, 08:06 PM
if i was you, i would tow it to a shop and have the timing checked. or if you kno how to check the ignition timing, do it. it will give you the best idea of a misfire. timingbelts dont squeak, its just ur other drive belts that do that.

89AccordResto
03-26-2006, 08:38 PM
Honestly if you're timing slipped it probably wouldn't run. Mine slipped a little on my last car and it just wouldn't fire.

maxsideburn
03-27-2006, 07:22 AM
hmm, I don't know, it just seems to me like the only reasonable explanation, that the timing slipped.

ghettogeddy
03-27-2006, 07:35 AM
well the timing sliped on my volvo and it ran but it ran really really shitty and it was off like 2 or 3 teeth well it could off been 1 and im exatrating but i think it was more like 2

w261w261
03-27-2006, 08:19 AM
As long as we're into guesses here, how about this: the timing belt tensioner has malfunctioned, and as a result the belt has slipped a bit, maybe enough so that a piston came up and tagged an intake valve, which is now bent and not closing completely. Either that, or something has gotten ingested into the intake plumbing and has stuck under the intake valve. I had a 8hp Tecumseh engine on my snowblower suck in the screw that held the choke disk in place, which lodged under the intake valve and caused the engine to blow back out through the carb. In any case, you've had a backfire through the CAI, and maybe you are running on 3 cylinders and what the 4th can contribute. The resulting imbalance is messing up the engine controls resulting in the other stuff you've mentioned. You didn't say, but I'd imagine you are severely down on power. That noise you talked about could be the intake valve still not closing and and causing a blow-by. Anyway, it definitely sounds like a timing issue of some kind. Good luck.

maxsideburn
03-27-2006, 10:23 AM
Ok, I just checked again since it's daylight now. I found that one of my vacuum caps I had put on the intake manifold had been blown off by the explosion. After replacing that cap the car runs MUCH better, but still idles pretty crappy. It idles around where it used to, but there's a lot of vibration comming through the steering wheel and you can just feel that it's idling terribly. However when I rev it up it sounds great and has no problems at all reaching redline, in fact I'd dare say it does it quicker!

So now I'm down to simply an idle problem, wierd.

P.S. And it hasn't smoked out of the intake since that first time. It was kinda like a reverse backfire.

maxsideburn
03-27-2006, 11:00 AM
Ok this is wierd. I decided to see if I could make it to autozone, because besides idling a little low the car was doing ok. Well I made it about 3-4 blocks before the car died out on me while I was coasting to a light.

I pulled into a gas station and after only a little hesitation the car started back up. But this time the idle was really low, like 500 rpms, then a few seconds later it sputtered and died. I barely made it home, I had to keep switching feet so I could brake while revving the engine to keep it going. I also noticed when I got home that there was a little bit of smoke comming off of the downpipe, or at least that's what it seemed. And the car smelled a little hot, although the gauge said it was fine.

Now since I bought the car I've always noticed that suddenly power would cut out really bad, then come right back, and I've also noticed that it always seems to smell as if it's running a little rich. Also for the first few days I had it I would kill the car, and then try to start it again, like 5 minutes later, and it wouldn't start, it would just keep turning over. Then I'd wait another 5 minutes and it would crank right up.

The fact that it used to cut out on power really bad made me think the timing belt was slipping, but perhaps all along it's been a fuel problem?

Someone mentioned my fuel pressure regulator. How would I go about testing to see if this is the problem? Also could the FPR cause the car to do all of the things I've said in this thread? And could it explain why it would suddenly lose power so badly?

P.S. I noticed no power loss while driving the car a while ago, it's just that when I'd let off of the gas pedal the car would stutter and die. Please guys any info welcome, this is my only car for the time being.

Baveara
03-27-2006, 11:10 AM
buy a new car.

Vanilla Sky
03-27-2006, 12:34 PM
my carbed accord did the same and i never got it running right again. then again, i never really tried to get it running again.

maxsideburn
03-27-2006, 12:46 PM
heh, I love having the more powerful FI engine, but honestly I could troubleshoot and fix a carbed car much easier.

Baveara: Buy the manual
http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/427/hondatuning1zf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Rofl, no seriously, did you enjoy getting your post count up? lol j/k

Anyway there's nothing not worth rebuilding, especially for a true 3geer ;) Which I'd strongly like to consider myself. So let's actually hear some constructive ideas instead of the easy way out :)

My next idea is to check the CYP sensor and wiring to and from the coil and distributor.

'89AccordLX(Rus)
03-27-2006, 01:43 PM
Perhaps you blew out an intake gasket somewhere along the line. This would cause a vacuum leak and could very well make your car run lean, feel hotter, and ping too. Idle should be higher (at least carbs will do that), but the ECU may not adjust the same way. Try the old carb cleaner spray trick and see if its something simple like a leak first.

maxsideburn
03-28-2006, 05:12 PM
Carb cleaner spray trick?

And anyone have any idea how I could be sure if it's my fuel pressure regulator or not?

'89AccordLX(Rus)
03-28-2006, 05:49 PM
Carb cleaner spray trick:

Spray carb cleaner around the intake manifold and vacuum lines. Leaks are temporarily sealed and you'll notice a change in how the engine runs. This allows you to pinpoint vacuum leaks.

cubert
03-28-2006, 06:00 PM
are you losing coolant at all?

88Accord-DX
03-28-2006, 07:29 PM
Try the carb spray trick. Check your timing with a timing light/gun. Try to adjust the float level & air/fuel mixture screw. Re-adjust your valve lash. Compression test the cylinders to see if your valves are closing all the way. Just some ideas to throw in there. There isn't a pressure regulator on carbed motor.

'89AccordLX(Rus)
03-28-2006, 07:53 PM
Try the carb spray trick. Check your timing with a timing light/gun. Try to adjust the float level & air/fuel mixture screw. Re-adjust your valve lash. Compression test the cylinders to see if your valves are closing all the way. Just some ideas to throw in there. There isn't a pressure regulator on carbed motor.

His is EFI. The only real way to test the FPR is with a fuel pressure gauge. I believe that is done by connecting the gauge inline with the feed line and then disconnecting the vacuum hose from the FPR. If the fuel pressure goes up, all is well. If no difference is noted, the FPR is faulty.

88Accord-DX
03-28-2006, 08:41 PM
His is EFI.
Ohh,lol. I just skimmed this thread & was looking at that crazy looking manual & this qoute. But yeah, inline fuel pressure gauge is what he needs to check the fuel pressure regulator operation.


heh, I love having the more powerful FI engine, but honestly I could troubleshoot and fix a carbed car much easier.

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 06:57 AM
Could it be possible that the FPR is dumping too much fuel instead of not enough? Cuz I really get a gas smell from my exhaust, and I think I'm either getting too much fuel or not enough fire.

smufguy
03-29-2006, 07:04 AM
if any, you could be having a faulty O2 sensor or a leak in ur exhaust. It also could be that you are burning oil to get the smell of 'gas' in ur exhaust. NOrmally for a car with this much age to it, will burn some oil. See if you can use the "Guranteed to pass emissions" stuff and see if the smell goes away/reduces. The product is just a high octane cleaner that loosens and helps burn away carbon deposits that result in high HC emissions from your exhaust.

89AccordResto
03-29-2006, 09:10 AM
Are all 4 plugs firing? Almost sounds like you're running on 3 cylinders. One time I had a little mousie problem that chewed up one of my injector's wiring. Quick butt-splice and it was good to go. :)

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 09:26 AM
lol. I'm going to try and check all plugs for fire later today. I was hoping someone would have a brilliant idea as to what it could be, but I guess I'll just have to start tearing it apart to find the problem, lol.

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 09:28 AM
another thing I was thinking is my Blaster 2 coil..., but I just got it less than a month ago. I wish I could find my stock coil so that I could put it back and see, but I can't find it. And a new one costs waaay too much just to try.

89AccordResto
03-29-2006, 10:05 AM
Just check all your plugs, make sure they're all firing. Just take em out, leave the wire on and hold it against anything bare metal that's grounded. Should see a nice blue spark.

Deadhead
03-29-2006, 10:22 AM
Is your CEL on?

sounds like you have some crazy issues.... Definatly check for vacuum leaks, also check to make sure your timing and valve lash is where it should be. (CHECK YOUR VALVE TIMING FIRST LOL)

good luck dude!

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 10:32 AM
CEL has been on, it's my EGR valve, stupid code 12 that nobody ever seems to get resolved.

lostforawhile
03-29-2006, 11:43 AM
if your egr valve is stuck open this could cause the problem,in other words if it's stuck,your intake manifold is always open to your exaust. it's supposed to only open under certain rpm conditions, it will cause the stalling and sputtering at low rpm like you said. also all the unburned gasses in your exaust when you start the car will come right back through your intake. have you thought of looking at a JK for another used egr valve? or maby someone on here will have one. I had this problem on my carbed car,it went away once i made a blockoff plug for the egr tube. that won't work on your car though because it will screw with the computer. think of it this way,at low rpm that valve is a big vaccume leak to your exaust.

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 01:26 PM
true, thanks for the advice.

I went outsite today and tried to address all conditions I was aware of other than the EGR problem. I fixed my brakelights (had some crappy coroded sockets), swapped out the coil for my stock one, and then for a new Blaster 2, I even drained the cooling system and checked the thermostat I installed last week or so, it was fine. I did notice something though. If I started the car with not quite a full radiator it would idle a little better, then if I'd add some water it would start running worse. I even checked the spark plugs, all are good, all are getting fire.

I noticed the following when observing the way the car is running:

1.) The exhaust sounds funny, kinda like it's misfiring bad.
2.) The engine runs like it's misfiring bad and will slowly start choking until it dies unless you rev it up.
3.) The exhaust still smells like gas, or something similar pretty strong.


My question now is if my EGR has finally stuck then would it cause my car to run like this and after a short period of driving will it cause the car to be harder to keep started? Like it's causing the computer to richen up the mixture and flood it out or something?

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 02:24 PM
I'm more and more convinced that it is the EGR valve...but I cannot get it out. i have been trying EVERYTHING. That front bolt that's kinda under the valve itself, it's in such an odd angle that I keep stripping it out trying to get it out. The rear one wasn't so hard, but this one just refuses to budge and there's pretty much no shape left to it. So what in the hell now? If it was in a place I could use a wrench I would have done that by now.

lostforawhile
03-29-2006, 03:48 PM
true, thanks for the advice.

I went outsite today and tried to address all conditions I was aware of other than the EGR problem. I fixed my brakelights (had some crappy coroded sockets), swapped out the coil for my stock one, and then for a new Blaster 2, I even drained the cooling system and checked the thermostat I installed last week or so, it was fine. I did notice something though. If I started the car with not quite a full radiator it would idle a little better, then if I'd add some water it would start running worse. I even checked the spark plugs, all are good, all are getting fire.

I noticed the following when observing the way the car is running:

1.) The exhaust sounds funny, kinda like it's misfiring bad.
2.) The engine runs like it's misfiring bad and will slowly start choking until it dies unless you rev it up.
3.) The exhaust still smells like gas, or something similar pretty strong.


My question now is if my EGR has finally stuck then would it cause my car to run like this and after a short period of driving will it cause the car to be harder to keep started? Like it's causing the computer to richen up the mixture and flood it out or something?your egr stuck open can def cause this,especially since it's throwing a code,the egr is designed to allow a certain amount of exaust to be recirculated under certain rpm conditions. basically if it's stuck open it's like sticking a pipe from your intake to your exaust manifold. it's not suposed to allow any recirculation at idle or low rpm conditions. this causes exaust gases to ruin your air fuel ratio. also under certain vaccume conditions it's supposed to be off,or exaust velocity will cause vaccume in the exaust to pull raw air fuel mixtuure straight into the exaust manifold. this will account for the raw gas smell. since you have a code already i'm almost certain this is your problem. check the electrical connector also and make sure the contacts are clean. it's very common for high milage egr valves to stick,mine is vaccume controlled so it's a bit different,since yours is computer controlled it's operated by an electronc motor i believe,it also has a lift sensor. it's got more parts to go bad.

lostforawhile
03-29-2006, 03:50 PM
true, thanks for the advice.
I went outsite today and tried to address all conditions I was aware of other than the EGR problem. I fixed my brakelights (had some crappy coroded sockets), swapped out the coil for my stock one, and then for a new Blaster 2, I even drained the cooling system and checked the thermostat I installed last week or so, it was fine. I did notice something though. If I started the car with not quite a full radiator it would idle a little better, then if I'd add some water it would start running worse. I even checked the spark plugs, all are good, all are getting fire.
I noticed the following when observing the way the car is running:
1.) The exhaust sounds funny, kinda like it's misfiring bad.
2.) The engine runs like it's misfiring bad and will slowly start choking until it dies unless you rev it up.
3.) The exhaust still smells like gas, or something similar pretty strong.
My question now is if my EGR has finally stuck then would it cause my car to run like this and after a short period of driving will it cause the car to be harder to keep started? Like it's causing the computer to richen up the mixture and flood it out or something?your egr stuck open can def cause this,especially since it's throwing a code,the egr is designed to allow a certain amount of exaust to be recirculated under certain rpm conditions. basically if it's stuck open it's like sticking a pipe from your intake to your exaust manifold. it's not suposed to allow any recirculation at idle or low rpm conditions. this causes exaust gases to ruin your air fuel ratio. also under certain vaccume conditions it's supposed to be off,or exaust velocity will cause vaccume in the exaust to pull raw air fuel mixtuure straight into the exaust manifold. this will account for the raw gas smell. since you have a code already i'm almost certain this is your problem. check the electrical connector also and make sure the contacts are clean. it's very common for high milage egr valves to stick,mine is vaccume controlled so it's a bit different,since yours is computer controlled it's operated by an electronc motor i believe,it also has a lift sensor. it's got more parts to go bad.

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 06:56 PM
ok, well anybody got any ideas of what I can do next to get that bolt off? (Read my last post).

88Accord-DX
03-29-2006, 07:03 PM
That particular bolt (think it's a nut, now that I think about it) more than likely needs a 10mm six point swivel head socket, or swivel on a six point 10mm socket.

88Accord-DX
03-29-2006, 07:15 PM
If you want to do a little pre-measure test on the EGR. Take loose the vacuum line to it. Push up on it underneath it, hold your finger over the vacuum port on the EGR. If you hear & feel vacuum when you hold your finger over the port as you let it go up & down. It should be working properly. Carbon deposites are a problem on the bottom of it too.

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 07:24 PM
Well even if I can just clean out the EGR it definately has to come out. And here is my problem...

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/994/10054302gh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I've pretty much tried everything. I've tried all different sizes of ratchets and extensions, I've tried Liquid Wrench, I've tried vice grips....can't get a wrench in there. So any other ideas?

88Accord-DX
03-29-2006, 07:40 PM
Stubby 10 mm wrench.

http://i18.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/5f/96/f4_1.JPG

6 point swivel head socket. (pic of a 12 point)

http://i10.ebayimg.com/05/i/06/89/0b/5f_1_b.JPG



Also, little heat can loosen it up, just don't burn up nothing. You might need to pull the intake off if you can't get a nut extrator on there.

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 08:25 PM
to hell with this, I'm just going to attack that bastard with my dremel tool tomorrow! I'm tired of stupid little problems like this.

88Accord-DX
03-29-2006, 08:50 PM
Well, if you dremel it off. Take into consideration of removing what little stud will be there. If you can't get out what little stud is there,(cause of it being a intergal part of the intake) you'll have to drill & tap it out. Install a new stud to hold the EGR on.

Dremel tool might be a easy way out, but not easy results.

maxsideburn
03-29-2006, 08:57 PM
nah, I'm talking about taking the dremel tool with a cutting wheel and trying to carefully cut just the nut off of the bolt, hopefully not even touching the bolt.

1989accordaz
03-29-2006, 08:58 PM
Have you tried pliers? Even if you got enough room to turn it 1/8 at a time. A pipe wrench type, but smaller, this way you getting at it from the side, rather than the top.

Good luck

89AccordResto
03-30-2006, 06:58 AM
Vise grips. Nasty ones.

maxsideburn
03-30-2006, 07:03 AM
Ok well here's the state of the bolt now.

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/4368/10054324qf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Basically I've come to the conclusion that there is no way in hell to get this nut off without damaging the stud behind it. So there's the question. What in the hell do I do? I called around and an intake manifold is $70, that is not acceptable for a part that I'm not even sure is the problem in the first place. (EGR valve)

My last resort idea, since I can't afford to take a $70 risk right now (or ever for that matter), I have one option left. I'm going to try to place a little piece of metal in between the hose and port, where the exhaust goes into the intake manifold and seal it up good with some high-temp gasket sealer. I can hope at the least that if the problem initially was my EGR being stuck wide open that this will at least block it off enough to see if the car idles better. Then I won't mind spending $70 on another intake manifold with EGR, because I will know that that is the problem.




http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/1552/10054333ty.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

maxsideburn
03-30-2006, 10:24 AM
double post

maxsideburn
03-30-2006, 05:48 PM
Ok check this out. i found out exactly what it was. The EGR was stuck open apparently. Because after trying all day to get my EGR free I decided to just go ahead and plug the hole where the exhaust hose plugs into the intake manifold. Well after plugging it up with a little piece I made out of aluminum and sealing it up with gasket sealer the car now runs ok. Well it idles high, like 2000rpm, but nothing crazy, idles fairly clean, at least sitting in my driveway. Now at least I know I just need a new intake manifold and EGR valve. Well here's the results.

In video format!

http://cajunads.panicnow.net/mh/lug/car_running_kickass.wmv
[Lo-Fi: WMV @ 1.96mb]

http://cajunads.panicnow.net/mh/lug/car_running_kickass_hi.wmv
[Hi-Fi: WMV @ 7.64mb]

maxsideburn
03-31-2006, 07:33 PM
Well I finally got the car running and idling almost normal again.

I blocked off the EGR with a piece of metal and put everything back together but it was still running really crappily, idling terribly. Well upon closer inspection I found that I had forgotten to attach one of the vacuum lines to the intake manifold, so I had a leak there. I re-attached the hose and started the car...almost back to normal. Then I decided to yank off the vacuum line going to the EGR valve from the "black box" and plug it up. I reset the ECU and cranked the car up, and she's purring like a kitten. Well a kitten that needs a serious valve lash adjustment, lol.

So I guess I gotta get on that soon ;)

88Accord-DX
03-31-2006, 07:39 PM
If you had a small propane torch, heated up that nut up & use some small vise grips on it. I think the nut will come off it you didn't hack the threads up real bad. Even if you did mess the threads up, once you break it loose. It should come off

BTW- Good project Trans Am there. Lots of potential.

maxsideburn
03-31-2006, 07:47 PM
cool, thanks.