ITB's

[b8er]

anybody using itb's right now, i know rujudy has got some info but its kinda hard to get in touch with him, iv been doing some heavy research on them and am just wondering if anybodys got some info that may come in handy for myself or anyone else, thanks

[A20A1]

I dunno, but redline sells kits. You may be able to use their programmable ECU in the kit and you can certainly use the kits B16/B18c5 manifold with ITB's.

[b8er]

well iv been talking with rjudey and he has sugested mega squirt to take care of the fuel, im pretty sure that what il end up doing as its more of a DIY kit which i like. anybody have any other suggestions as to the fuel end of it?

[speedpenguin]

What is does ITB mean?
I'm sure it's something I'd recognize if it wasn't abbreviated, but... :help:

[Vector]

individual throttle bodies? i think

[b8er]

thats correct vector, im gonna be using these...

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4566/03honda954rritb1nm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

there from SQ is the squad that is form this board, there itb's off a 2003 CBR 954rr and il hopefully have them in a few weeks,

iv found out itb's off a 1000cc or around there is what you should be aiming for, my main problem is gonna be fuel management for them and like i said before mega squirt is what im looking at using,

again has anybody had any experience using itb's or mega squirt, does anybody have any other suggestions instead of mege squirt

[Accordtheory]

go to honda-tech.com and look it up..a lot of people swing off those..I swing off the endyn cf manifold or the full race manifold..the only manifolds tested to outperform the ITBs..slightly

..I just bought the gsr bbk though, it's good enough for me

But seriously, why do you want ITBs anyway? It's supposedly harder to tune too, you don't have a nice vacuum signal to the map sensor..

[speedpenguin]

Thanks for that info.
Personally I wouldn't want to trade the reliability of PGM-Fi for something like MegaSquirt. I'll stick to regular manifolds, thanks.

[b8er]

somthing different, just wanna try stuff, im a guy who learns best from doing, sure i can read and learn but for somthing to really stick with me i need to do it, itb's have always done it for me, dont really know why, look i guess, i know thats a dumb reason to do it and im not claiming that as my reason aha.

cke: you say go with obd-1 instead of MegaSquirt or equivalent, any indepth reason other then 'less ghetto'?

[rjudgey]

theirs nothing Ghetto about megasquirt, uses all easily availble well proven Ford components and the ECU is up to date. Reliability will be improved upon if fitted well, if you use cheap connectors and dodgy wiring then yes it will be unreliable, if you do it correctly and use quality components it will be better than stock.

[b8er]

cool , thanks for that reasurment rjudgey

[PhydeauX]

I've just finished building a megasquirt II for my nova project last week. Its good stuff all the way. I never could get the gm-ecm to control the ilde properly, I threw the megasquirt on and it fired right up in like 5 minutes, then idled good after a little bit of tweaking. I still have a bit of things to finish up (like the cooling system) before I can start driving it (burned up my spring break working and barely had enough time to build the kit). I chose ms II because I wanted spark control, though ms I will do spark too with the extra firmware (lots of other goodies in that firmware too). Each version has it's own advantages. Both processors use the same motherboard so its possible to convert later if you like. What ever you do I'd suggest locking you distriubtor and using the ms for spark as well. The kits are fairly easy to build, but you'd better be good at soldering, esp on a v3 board and its damn tiny ass transistors. Make sure this isn't the first board you solder though. Buy the stim kit and practice on it first and you should be fine (you'll want that anyway to test it as you build). I bought my kit from a distributor ( diyautotune.com (www.diyautotune.com) gratuitous plug because I was very impressed with their speed and service) instead of going the buy the board and get the rest from digikey route. Every thing came in nice labeled baggies, (very usefull esp to someone who is red green colorblind and can't read the resistor bands very well). The organization and completeness of the kit made it definitely worth the extra money to me (and its really not that much more then buying the parts yourself).
Bike tb's are a good choice too, cheap (compaired to the $1000+ b16 itb manifolds) and the manifold is fairly easy to fabricate.
andy

[b8er]

wow, sweet thanks for all that info phydeau, for this aplication of mine do you think the MS I will do the job or should i hit up MS II

[w00tw00t111]

b8er if you're still looking for other ways to tune the itb's besides megasquirt then uberdata, and chrome supposedly have the ability to tune it. From what I've read the ITB's hardly increase hp but, they increase throttle response like crazy *Pretty obvious if you just think about it* Then besides getting the tune down with a nice idle and whatnot, it seems like the guys at HMT had a problem getting an accurate tps voltage. But, other then that seemed pretty straight forward.

[b8er]

yea iv looked at chrome, uberdata,megasquirt,electromotive, etc. and i think im gonna stick with megasquirt, now its just a coin flip over MS I or MS II. i am not expecting to get any hp gains at all, i am expecting to lose some torque ( shorter runners on my custom intake mani. ) and i am also expecting to get greater throttle response. thats about it. just to clear things up i have no reaosn of doing this other then the simple fact that i want to, to asses the problem about the idle i dont think it will be that hard, MegaSquirt has datalogging capabilites that will come in nice and handy for that aspect, co concour the tps voltage problem, im sure what im gonna do there, the itb's are coming with the tps on them so that saves me form trying to find one, but hooking it up is gonna be a different story.

Ps. dont plan for this to be done anytime soon, my motors getting rebuild and i plan of re-installing the motor and breaking it in with the factory componets and in that time i will also make the intake mani, purchase MegaSquirt and then go from there.

[rjudgey]

you've got to be kidding me no power increase my arse! whar size bore are those 40-42mm? also if you want torque make the inlet manifold as long as possible 5-6 inches more if you can, with Itb's you can run as many mods as you want without causing a bottleneck but to get the most you need high cr ratio pistons, cams with at least 275-280 duration or more, plus red hot custom made header and system, and some serious headwork custom 33mm inlet valves, 37mm exhaust valves, all with race backcuts profiles, 5 angle or radiused seats, reshaped exhaust ports and guide boss etc. etc. you would be able to put out 220-250bhp depending on cams and cr ratio as well as if you have to run a cat, plus you could allways add nos or even turbo bike itbs as well! but leave turbo if you want it to sound like a f1 car and have silly rpm's valvetrain can handle 8k rpms with minor mods

[b8er]

not sure on the bore size, im definatly gonna try and make the intake mani runners as long as possibly of course. i just figured it wont be very long cause i dont wanna hit the firewall so just judging i figured they runners are gonna be shorties. as for now the up-sized valves and etc. will have to wait, also your saying a fresh valvetrain can handle 8,000rpm?

[b8er]

hey rjudgey do you happen to have any more general itb info that can be shared to hope out myself or other guys looking into itbs or just looking for info?

[ZackieDarko]

There is a guy in my area selling ITB's for a GSR i can tell you how to contact him if you want a setup.

[b8er]

There is a guy in my area selling ITB's for a GSR i can tell you how to contact him if you want a setup.

thanks man but i got a set coming from a fellow member on the board, pics are in the first few posts

[Accordtheory]

I've just finished building a megasquirt II for my nova project last week. Its good stuff all the way.

Sorry to ask on this thread, I know it's a little off the topic of ITBs, but what kind of tuning resolution does the ms software have? How many tuning points of fuel/ignition vs map/rpm does it have? If you look at the boost tuning resolution for the hondata s300, it is retarded..

[b8er]

ask away man, im in the middle of finding out as much as i can about itb;s turning and whatnot, from what iv read MS is pretty good all around, the MS forum website is http://www.msefi.com, your definatly find the awsner there

[PhydeauX]

The msII has 12x12 tables for both ve and spark. There is also a target afr table if you're running a wideband which I believe is 12x12 as well >:). I'm not on my laptop right now to look at it. www.megasquirt.info should have all the info you're looking for. I believe that ms1 with extra has a 12x12 ve and 8x8 spark. I forget I chose ms II for my project hoping for alot of the new features (mainly waste spark and wheel decoding) to come down the pipe soon. I want to run waste spark on my motor, probably coil on plug but fireing 2 at once. And I don't want to bother with edis (no spark cut rev limit and no god place to mount the edis wheel in my app). I know msns-e does that already with the ms I but most of the features I want are already in beta for the ms II and the ms II cpu is more accurate.

man accordtheory.. 24x20 tables in hondata... how much resolution does one need. I guess that extra ve resolution would come in handy if you're running insane boost levels (looks like they support up to 5 bar.. thats just nuts) The ms comes setup for 2 bar, and 3 bar is fairly easy, I didn't look into going any higher but I'm sure its possible.

andy

[b8er]

im assuming ve is tunning 'slang' for spark?

so your saying MS II has a bigger tunning table and therefor a bump for it, could you possible do a quick pro/con list for MS I and MS II to help myself mainly and others to chose?

[PhydeauX]

The ve is volumetric efficiency, the ve table is map vs rpm. The ecu uses it to determine the current engine load and calculate how much fuel to inject. The larger the table is the more finely you can tune it.

I don't feel qualified to make a pro/con list of the ms hardware. Read the info on this site http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/index.html and here http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/index.htm and compair for yourself. Plain old megasquirt fuel only info can be found here http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirtspecs.html

andy

[Accordtheory]

20x24 resolution in hondata is only with the 5bar sensor..it's only 20x16 with the 3bar..that's retarded..crome beats that, and it 'shouldn't' even be in the same ballpark as hondata..
I'd want to be able to configure the amount of load points vs boost, not just have a weird fixed arbitrary way of tuning it..with crome you can do that
..still waiting on the neptune rtp

[b8er]

well im not calling you out saying your not qualifed i was just asuming that by what you have wrote that you know your stuff so i figured that you might be able to do just a quick little somthing like
MS I-------------------MS II
has this----------------doesnt
has this----------------has this
doesnt-----------------has this

if you get my childish ideas, ahah



also how does our stock computer work, like does it use a MAF and control the timming or what, i asume thats not that way seeing as our dizzys are vacum advance but anyone get my drift?

[PhydeauX]

The stock computer is fuel only I beleive. I'm pretty sure there is a map sensor in that black box somewhere, I know there isn't a maf. I'm not 100% sure on the specifics since I'm a carb guy when it comes to the accords. Both the efi and carb distributors have a vacuum and mechanical advance. The efi computer might have some influence on the vacuum advance via a solenoid but I'm not sure on that. Most of the advance is handled by the mechanical any way (by the way you have to lock the mechanical advance if you go to an efi system that does spark).
As for you chart, just read the features lists on those two links, I don't see a reason to copy and paste them side by side here.
As for the reasons I chose msII over ms1 were:
- accuracy, I'm running 365cc injectors on a 1.6l engine. While thats nothing radical the gm ecm seemed to have a terrible time with it, I just couldn't get a stable idle (rich or lean but never right). I'm sure the ms1 could have handled it, but after the bad expierence I wanted to be sure. The msII has no problems and shouldn't even with injectors 2x that size. Those injectors are too small anyways so I'll have plenty of room to grow.
- stepper motor idle control, I already had one fitted and I wanted to use it.
- I was betting on the future. Most say that msns-e has pretty much taken the ms1 cpu almost to its limit. It's likely that its developers will start bring its features over to the msII and expanding from there. Or atleast thats what I'm hoping, from reading the forums it seems it will atleast partially happen in the not too distant future. Knock retard and wheel decoding are in beta, people are talking about more ignition outputs and the only other thing I really want right now is boost control.
andy

[jigga89SEi]

With your ITB set-up are u running a single tps or individuals tps sensors?... I'm designing an ITB setup myself.. And contrary to earlier statements there is power to be made with proper tuning... I'm going to use GSXR TBs... I'm basing the the build off of the Honda Tuning D-series ITB article... But, They only used 1 tps... I don't have the magazine with me at the moment so I can't say what issue... I beleive they used Hondata for tuning( I could be wrong)... I'm goin complete stand alone... I'm considering SDS, But I'm not having luck finding a tuner locally for that system... My understanding is that SDS would be easier to wire individual tps sensors, however I have not fully researched this... If I don't go with SDS I'm considering the AEM system... After some research I've discoverd that multiple tps sensors is extremely benificial when it comes to tuning and over-all driveability...
My other issue is actually making 4 tps sensors work with the GSXR TBs... I don't have the TBs yet, so I haven't actually evaluated the problem.. But if anyone has input on that.. It would be greatly appreciated...

[A20A1]

Wouldn't you only need one TPS... the throttles are synched so the signal will never vary even if you add 20 TPS's... you just need your program to use one signal for all 4 cylinders.

I mean how could having multiple TPS signals actually help if they are always the same. It probably has someting to do with the program you're running and not that you have 1 TPS. I only see multiple TPS as a way to not have to set up your program to use the same signal for each cylinder.... that way each cylinder is more independent. Kinda like the benifit of running coil on plug, but then not quite.

Another posibility is that the throttles are not perfectly synched... which means you have messed up ITB's, but in that instance I can see 4 Individial TPS sensors helping.

[jigga89SEi]

Well that is exaclty the thought I had... But is also what lead to an aurgument with a tuner friend of mine... I thought that if all the butterflies are on the same axis why would it makes a difference?.. .but he says problems have occurred before because of the single tps... He even went as far to say that the same d-series build I spoke of earlier ran into the same issue when it came to tuning... The only benifit I see is the ability to tune each cylinder individually.. which WOULD be a good thing

[A20A1]

Well they would all have the own circuit/signal, which can be benificial in it's own way but if the program you use is set up for one TPS I don't see it making it that much harder to tune the cylinders individual.

If TPS signal = x
Have cylinder 1 - 4 read the value of x individually, not simultaneously.
Then I don't see you needing x, y, z, v. (I'm probably way off into outer space with that bit though)

It's like running 4 ecu's so you have one per cylinder... I mean you can do it and it proably has it's benifits. But some things you can simplify if you know that they are going to be consistant; like the TPS.

I think any problems lie in how the signal is used... but thats something I really can't elaborate on.

Anyways if you can run it, then go for it, I just think things should be consolodated where possible.

[jigga89SEi]

I agree an thats why I put the question out there... I'm still in the information gathering stage... I'm trying to figure out the most benificial way to go about this... So anyone else with input on the before mentioned questions please let me know...

[b8er]

these last few posts between jigga and a20 are great, i never thought of running 4 tps ubt as soon as you asked i thought hey that might be a great idea and then you guys further discussed exatcly what i was thinking, it was kinda weird actually, aha,

i believe the itb's im getting are a single tps, i asume its only 1 as i asume there are all factory and i asume that the factory setup only came with one, ahah im not really sure to be blunt and honest


... I'm still in the information gathering stage... I'm trying to figure out the most benificial way to go about this...

amen on that , im just trying to find as much info on adapting itbs to an a20, whats the price on the SDS and AEM systems your looking at?

[A20A1]

Yup gathering info helps out a lot... I think I was just lacking in skills or I'm lazy with my hands on projects cause my header didn't quite come out the way I wanted.

[Accordtheory]

There is no need for multiple tps sensors. The shafts are all connected together! And if you have the ability to tune each cylinder differently, you don't need different sensors for each cylinder, because you tune each cylinder differently based on the same input.

[Accordtheory]

contrary to earlier statements there is power to be made with proper tuning...

What I've read is that ITBs get beaten slightly by the endyn cf manifold with an oversize TB..it's been a while since I've read up on a many of the top guys setups on h-t, and ITBs are always popular, but that's what I was seeing. I remember reading about a guy who had 250whp on a vtec 1.8, with ITBs carefully setup on a heavily modded head, etc. But there are people who are heavily involved in this shit who will say they have seen just as much with a good single throttle body intake. Did you read the buildup of endyn's 300hp b20 vtec? They heavily modified a skunk2 manifold, and used it with a 64mm TB.

If you believe ITBs make more power, what would be your explanation for that?

The way I see it, when the butterflys are open, it's just a runner..you still have the same things in play, runner length, taper, plenum size, etc, what difference does it make where you put the flow restriction (throttle) when you eliminate it (by opening it all the way)?

[rjudgey]

depends on the rpms your trying to pull, i think you'll find that if your running full on race engine ITB's are a must as the higher the rpms the more of a restriction a single TB becomes, but for most road cars single inlet plenum aftermarket is going to be pretty good, the question was is ITB's going to be better than stock which i'm pretty sure is a 100% yes. Personally i think ITB's are better and also two Webers which is similar principle one TB per bore i think the limiting factor comes down to how long you can make the runners and also the engle to which they attach to the head, it's not just whether their ITB's or single TB theirs lots of other considerations to make, the guy with the single TB setup may have mods that suit this setup and also has no desire to turn into full on race car and wants to retain low end torque for everyday driveablility, the guy with the ITB's may wanted them because they look cool and sound cool, but wanted to keep the engine relatively tame so that he could still drive it on the roads.
ITB's with big air boxes on turn into a sort of single inlet plenum style setup as well but this is mainly done to try and keep the noise levels down as with a lot of tracks in the U.K their are quite strict noise limits, these don't seem to hinder performance especailly if they are fitted to a duct that rams air straight in they actually gain in some cases.
But from all the engine setups that are in the U.K. and their have been many 4 pots that have been tuned for road and race use over the last 20 years from Ford to Volkswagen the best engines have all had ITB's on them or Twin Weber DCOE's none have had single TB unless they're running Turbo. but i've even seen ITB's with turbo setup as well with a sealed airbox on them. If you look at any of the best fast road sportscars e.g. Lotus Exige, M3, they have ITB's as stock must be a reason for people to use them if it's racing or fast road use, i think a lot of people have developed the sinlge TB plenum chamber so that it is a very good alternative that is a lot cheaper as ITB's have allways been very expensive to fit and tune but ultimately the most performance allways cost more if you want an engine that puts down 300whp your going to need ITB's but if your happy with 285whp and the cheaper single TB plenum can do that then thats what will be bought but for anyone what that little extra it's going to cost a lot more when you get that serious the first 30 bhp is allways easy and cheap after that it starts getting more and more expensive with results becoming smaller and smaller.

[jigga89SEi]

That is what I was going to say... In way more words... LOL... Thnx Rjudgey...

Over stock there is no doubt a performance gain...

N lets think about it... An endyn carbon fiber intake mani and oversized TB... I'm not footin the bill for that one... If you wanna send me the money I'll make it work...
But I'd rather go ITB's.. Cause it's different, It's a challenge.. and they sound hella cool...

Plus as mentioned before, throttle response is way better... Which is only a plus for any race situation...

[b8er]

thanks for that sweet post rjudey, just makes me wanna do this project even more. im kinda jumping back a few posts now but anybody using chrome or uberdata or somthing along those lines that might be able to tell me/us if it is suitable for running itb's?

[AccordEpicenter]

I think you guys are gonna need a considerable amount of headwork to make over 200hp even with ITBs. It sure would be a sight though, itbs on an a20.

[jigga89SEi]

I know you know your shit, Rjudgey ... So do you have any input on the multiple verse single tps idea?

[b8er]

It sure would be a sight though, itbs on an a20.
it will happen, just you see

[rjudgey]

cke is right carb guy but i've been researching into EFI, i don't think multiple TPS will make any difference as it'a only an inline 4 pot and with all 4 butterfly's they should all be fixed in the same position, now what is important is that all four cylinders are flowing the same that ould be my priority rather than 4 tps, but say if you had a V6/8/10/12/16 then yes i can see having 2 TPS as being benefitial or if you have a system that shuts down cylinders to save on fuel e.g. V8 or V12 that runs on just half the cylinders etc.
Off course your going to need headwork, but nother hugely major the design of the ports are pretty good as standard you just need bigger valves all round and to reshape the exhuast port and valve guide ramp for better flow, then having a header custom made and exhaust system to match. I'm hitting 200Bhp with stock modified cast manifold, custom downpipe and system but i know this needs changing as it's creating a bottle neck and if i want to hit 250bhp it's gotta to go.

[b8er]

so do you think your wil feel a difference in power without modding the vlaves?

[Versanick]

There will absolutely be a power difference. It will provide syngergistic increases with things like a well-chosen cam, header, head work, valve work, and very high RPM (bottom end work needed)...

200hp would not be that difficult if you revved the motor to 8000rpm+, assuming you could fit things like a GSR oil pump gear, a larger alternator wheel, maybe a later water pump wheel (like the GSR one?), all to avoid high RPM damage. Remeber, after 7600rpm, horsepower is torque x 1.5. So if you can make 130+ ft/lb (which isn't terribly unforseeable with some work) after 7500rpm, you could see 200hp, no problem. To the flywheel, at least.

ITB's would be a big step in that direction. I'd say that if you have any real work done on your motor, ITB's would be a huge improvement over the VERY poor stock IM that comes on the a20's/b20a's. The air takes a 90 degree bend after the plenum, for god's sake. The disadvantage with a single cam is not having a great cam. I said a well-chosen cam, for a reason. With DOHC, you can properly tune overlap (the difference between the advance/retard of the intake/exhaust cam, regarding when both intake and exhaust valves are opened at the same time) to take advantage of the much differently flowing air from the ITB's than the stock IM.

So I don't think it would make more than 10-15hp on a stock motor. If you have carbs, and you ran four carbs with an ITB-sort of setup, you could make a HANDFUL more power, if set up and tuned correctly.

[Accordtheory]

Remeber, after 7600rpm, horsepower is torque x 1.5. .
hp=torque x rpm/5252

[w00tw00t111]

[quote]So I don't think it would make more than 10-15hp on a stock motor. If you have carbs, and you ran four carbs with an ITB-sort of setup, you could make a HANDFUL more power, if set up and tuned correctly.[/qoute]
OMG you made my day!! That's what I'm doing and I was worried that it wouldn't be very good.

I know from all the articles I've read they've all agreed to the fact that ITB's really aren't all that great of a performance mod when compared to a turbo,sc, or nitrous but, then again when ever you compare any of those power adders to good ol' NA they're never on the same playing field *with a few exceptions not takin' into account* I remember reading an article in honda tuning *i think* of an s2000 that only had ITB's, they gained 20 peak hp and the owner even mentioned the horsepower jump wasn't all that great but....the throttle response increase was amazing. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[b8er]

couple questions mainly for rjudey but anyone else that knows the awnser will work too, aha


33mm inlet valves, 37mm exhaust valves, all with race backcuts profiles, 5 angle or radiused seats, reshaped exhaust ports and guide boss

is there anywhere i can sorce these bigger valves, also when upgrading to the bigger diam. valves i asume the stem also grows in size so is that what you were talking about when you said somthing about the guide boss?
also...


valvetrain can handle 8k rpms with minor mods

what kinda mods are we talking here?

[b8er]

just took some measurments from my spare head and..

Intake
1.179 inches = 29.947 MM

Exhaust
1.384 inches = 35.154 MM

is there enough room to bump the sizes up to 33MM intake and 37MM exhaust i just looked and it looks close

[b8er]

cool, now i gotta order some special valves

[rjudgey]

The ITB's would still have a huge increase on power compared to stock but only when you combine with camshaft and other choice mods, if you stick the ITB's onto a completely sotck engine you'll kill the low end torque and make the engine run rough as it will have toomuch air to take in and it won;t be able to get it out quick enough.

Valves will fit at those sizes as i have them, and yes you would need custom valves, at least for the exhaust valves, the inlet valves you could use old exhuast valves mchined down but custom ones would be better for flow as the exhuast stems are thicker than the old 30mm ones, but the advantage of useing the old exhaust valves is that you then have to use the exhuast valve springs, retainers, and platforms which will give you the strength to rev upto 8k without any major issues. The maximum RPM is governed by how good the headwork is and the cam you use, on a stock head with a 280 degree cam you might only have a peak power at 7000rpm on a well modified head this may increase upto 8000rpm so you need to spend the money on the headwork and the valves to make the big power, also from my experience the torque and BHP figures are not an equation that you do to determine the other, the way the head flows the air and fuel and how it enters the cylinder and how well it mixes effects peak torque and Bhp figures, research into tumble and swirl versus flow velocity supports this so don't allways assume that X this to divide by Y that will allways give you accurate figures.

The guide boss is the end of the guide that sticks out into the port area, this can be moddified so that it flows the fuel and air around it better you can do this the easy way remove it completely or make it more aerodynamic, also the guide ramp is the material around the valve guide that is quite often raised into the port as well, with the A20A heads the inlet side doesn't really have an issue with the guide boss or the ramp as it doesn't haven't any, but unfortunately you do end up with a giant size gap in front of the valve stem and guide, which i think would be best welded up and re-profiled to match the port shape but this would only be needed for guy's who are keen on geeting the last HP outta their engines like myself and a couple others, the A18 heads, ET, and ET1 have different inlet ports and valve guide ramps and boss's and as a result these can be moddified to improve flow quite a bit, with A20 most of your increase in flow will be from having race style seats and valves, with all the port work going into the exhuast ports where the guide ramp and boss severly intrude into the port area, i've gained easliy 5bhp from opening up this area and this will only help further down the line with bigger cams, valves and bigger carbs and EFI etc.
The valve train minor mods would be just double checking spring heights and strengths, a little shimming under the spring platforms, as i said upgrading to Prelude ET or A18 springs and platforms should be good for 8k i've run at those rpms before without issues, but for ultimate you need to change to doubel springs using exhaust valves, platforms and retainers, or if you can find an ET1 Head they have doubles all round but the springs aren't that strong but are okay when shimmed a little, but you have to be carefull shimming the springs as if you add too much you'll become coil bound and you'll wreck the rockers and camshaft.
From my experience, if you want really good torque figures you have to incorporate as much tumble and swirl into the air flow as possible, this will effect Bhp slightly as this allways leads to a loss in air velocity, but if your aim is max Bhp then Air velocity is what you need, this is where the majic of head work comes in designing the head to give what you want.

[b8er]

well thats some good info right there. that should defintly help me out, thanks rjudey

[b8er]

well, little uptade for you guys as this thread has been idleing for awhille but this itb project and the whole accord project may be coming to a hault, iv found a car that iv fallen into love with, just as much as the accord but we will see what happenes, theres good info in this thread either way and il update you guys when the time comes

[rjudgey]

such as?

[b8er]

well as weird as it is i want a datsun 510, early 70's, iv just fallen in love with the body and the styling clues, im about the only person i know that likes them but they fact that were small/light/rwd and that motor swaps are gonna be failry easy make me all happy, i might keep the itb's and possibly work somthing out on the 510 (when i finnaly come across one as they are reiculous to find near my home town) but im gonna try and work both the se-i and the 510 but we'll just have to see what happenes

[speedpenguin]

Good luck man, those cars are great. my dad used to have one.
Just watch out for rust.

[b8er]

yea vi done some research i just cant seem to find any of the damn things, which makes me want one more cause there are 4 or 5 accords running arond town and i just want somthing different, so hopefully i can find one of these buggers

[MessyHonda]

that hot jigga....do you play need for speed undergound?...ITBS are hot...i heard they are good for up to 30hp

[speedpenguin]

that hot jigga....do you play need for speed undergound?...ITBS are hot...i heard they are good for up to 30hp
:lol: :slap: Sorry. They don't really increase HP so much as improve throttle response, at least that's what I had been told.

[jigga89SEi]

Well actually... I got paper work and a dyno graph that proves different(not with me the magazines at work) .... Not properly tuned it showd n increas of about 27hp if I remember correctly... lowend power suffers a little and at the very top of the gears it falls of a little.... Now this was on a stock d series with no management... so I'm sure I'll have no problem tuning at least 30-35 horses outta these... and a shot from the bottle on top of that...

[MessyHonda]

:lol: :slap: Sorry. They don't really increase HP so much as improve throttle response, at least that's what I had been told.
:slap: squared...man i knoe wut im talking about.....:rockon:

[speedpenguin]

Alright, I was wrong. Now I want them for my car!

[jigga89SEi]

u can buyem for b series... run ya bout 1500 just for the itbs though...

[speedpenguin]

Can ya? Good to know, I can't afford that anytime soon, but I may consider it in the future.

[Legend_master]

Here's an update...
These pics were takin with my phone, n it's not in the best shape...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid223/p22782a030d12032c24a6c050ed5ab72e/eb07ceae.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid223/pfa3d87073a794371e97e7a125fbcf6b7/eb07ceaa.jpg
You can see the brass "nozzles" I inserted thats so I can hook up my vaccum log and maintain brake pressure and function of other sensors...
Now I know this Prolly wont work the best, I don't expect it to, so save your flaming for another thread..... But, I made the vaccum log so that I could maintain function of all stock sensors including the cold idle and iavc or what ever the hell that thing is on the front of the mani... Anywayz.. I'm going to attempt to run this with a stock ecu.. Idle can be manually adjusted on the itb's so maybe, just maybe I can get it to run. I don't expect it to run great.. And I'm sure it'll bog its ass off cuase the ecu doesn't contain the scale to cope with assload of air it'll be getting... But I'ma see what she does...
The full set-up isn't done I still gotta polish the inside of the trumpets, butterflies and top of the manifold. remove the casting by where it enters the head and slap a coat of paint on her n she'll be ready to ge...


I honestly can't wait to see how this turns out. Very cool setup :rockon:

[speedpenguin]

Can't wait!

[hotdoghogie]

u know u can always use a v6 accord fuel pump and prelude FI

might be too much fuel

[MessyHonda]

u know u can always use a v6 accord fuel pump and prelude FI
might be too much fuel


why?
just get an aftermaket one

[hotdoghogie]

its cheaper... i dunno just some money saving tips

[MessyHonda]

how much would you save? .....you dont get it....just save up your money and get a real deal aftermarket pump...so when you are pushing mad JDM HP you wont need to upgrade again costing you x2

[hotdoghogie]

ya... u got a point

[Sporno]

dude you got the honda tuning calender too ... liken the setup too

[b20a86lude]

im trying to find someone to do it for me iv wanted to do it for yrs but im into a nother project right now