Dual DCOE ?

[sinisterfuzzy]

Hey i'm at a bit of a crisis here, what would be the pros and cons between converting to F/I or just getting 2 DCOES on my 89 LX? if DCOE what kind should I get? im leaning towards just stickin with carbs though. But down the road i'd like a turbo it's possible to turbo a carb'd LX though right?

p.s. sorry for the multi posts, my comp froze and posted like 3

[Vanilla Sky]

you can turbo with DCOE. sveral alfa romeo cars came stock with turbo chargers and DCOE carbs. they may need to be modified, but it is doable.

EFI has the advantage of being able to constantly adjust for changing conditions, making it an obvious choice for daily driven cars. DCOEs simply don't have that.

DCOEs have the capacity to make more power than EFI. on D series engines, gains of about 40 HP are pretty normal, going from a tuned EFI system to DCOE.

[sinisterfuzzy]

what kind of dcoe should i get, i've only read about them i dont really know what they are

[sinisterfuzzy]

Hey i was wondering if anyone knew what kind of performance gains will i get if i upgrade to 2 45 DCOEs?

[ghettogeddy]

do some searching you have started 3 new threds in the last couple of hours about the same stuff

[white ricer]

way to go n00b:slap: imo fi will always pwn carbs, i like being able to rely on my car starting everyday. not saying you cant get reliablity with carbs but its harder to obtain

[Vanilla Sky]

umm, i answered this in one of your 3 other threads. you should check.

[Accordtheory]

.
DCOEs have the capacity to make more power than EFI. on D series engines, gains of about 40 HP are pretty normal, going from a tuned EFI system to DCOE.

..references?

Are you talking about vs the stock single injector tiny runner manifold?

Why would a carburetor have the capacity to make power over efi when efi doesn't use a flow restriction (venturi) to atomize the fuel?

And if your otherwize optimized efi manifold isn't beating the carb setup, move your injectors farther back from the valves..twm injection does this a little with their ITBs, others probably do too..

[Vanilla Sky]

no, multiport EFI.

i've read several instances at HT where this happened. i'm sure that these aren't the norm as i suggested, but being that i was only over there for a few months and read about it several times, i was pretty impressed.

also, it needs to be said that i'm referring to N/A apps, not turbo apps.while you can use DCOE carbs with a turbo, i don't think it's exactly wise. i never really liked the idea of a carbed turbo car.

right now, i can't find anything on honda tech, but i only tried one search. if i weren't sick right now, i'd sit here for hours trying to find the threads over there.

rjudgey should chime in.

[PhydeauX]

Set up right you can get more or less equal amounts of power out of either. The big advantage to efi is that even setup for full power its going to be alot friendlier at part throttle and it's more flexable to tune (I'm assuming were are compairing the dcoe carbs to a full stand alone system, otherwise its apples and oranges and the carbs will blow the stock injection away). Both have their advantages, though with the cost of a good efi system falling sharply as well as the laptop to program it, it looks better every day. Carbs are generaly cheaper, they're simpler, and easy to tune. Though tuning dcoe carbs can get really expensive really fast because you need 4 of everything. You also tend to set them up for one specific rpm range and then just deal with how they run for the rest of the engines range. Efi systems usually require a large initial investment (systems like hondata and megasquirt bring a good system well into the range of a carb conversion these days). Espically when coming from a carbed car, since you are going to need to redo the whole fuel system (lines, pump, tank, injectors, etc. The tuning is more involved in fuel injection and requires a bit of learning. You also need a laptop if you want to tune on the go, which just adds to the cost (though these days an old ebay laptop will usually get the job done). Though there is no buying jets, and waiting a week for them to come in the mail. You can make adjustments on the fly and they don't cost a cent.

DCOE carbs can be turboed just fine. They will withstand moderate boost with no modifications. You just need special sealed air boxes for the front which are still availabe and not that hard to make. You have to make sure that the bowls are pressurized and that the fuel pressure regualtor is 1:1 rising rate manifold referenced, fuel pressue needs to be 2-3psi above boost pressure.

Its time for class so I'm not going to finish this and state why I would pick efi over carbs for a turbo app, but I would. You'll notice that there hasn't been an oem turbo carb app since efi came on the scene, the cars that had the turbo webers were old alphas or masarattis<sp> from the 60's iirc. (blowers setup in suck through configuration are a diferent story)

andy

[Vanilla Sky]

the maserati biturbo is carbed. that's a mid-eighties car.

i was referring to close to stock (injector and ECU upgrade for the most part) EFI systems.

[Accordtheory]

the power is the manifold..the better manifold might be carbureted..but still, the best carb setup still uses a Flow Restriction to atomize the fuel. It might be only a slight restriction, but it is still a restriction..

[Vanilla Sky]

i agree. if you really wanted to go all out, you'd be using ITBs, but they can be prohibitively expensive. with everyone building ITB setups with motorcycle parts, this mindset can be tossed out the window.

for my car, i'm going to go DCOE. ITB is simply too expensive for a hobby race car.

[rjudgey]

Another EFI versus carb thread!
Well pretty much agree with all of the above, and reliability is fine with webers just not with ones that are 10 years old and have done a 100 thousand miles, if you buy new they will last a good 40-50k without any major issues only weak things tend to be the buttefly springs which tend to snap after a while and occasionally the float valves stick after a while but all easily fixable and you can still limp home normally.

With a stock EFI system your dealing with 20 year old wiring and components with half the parts way too expensive and being deleted from Honda it's very unfair to say that carbs are less reliable but with a modern converted EFI that's done to a high standard then yes it would be more reliable.

As far as the Venturi concept goes to slowing down the air so much that it's going to make it a poor upgrade, your talking such a small difference, Weber carbs over a moddified stock style EFI system is a no hands down win but compared against a newer style plenum with uprated injectors and mappable ECU it starts swinging towards the EFI setup but the Webers will still have the edge on throttle response and top end power, but with ITB's they are better low down and when setup properly marginally better than the webers most likely due to not having anything obstructing the air flow, hence why bike carbs tend to be a good choice and popular for converting too, or with Bike ITB's which are cheaper to buy secondhand than the aftgermarket car ones.

[sinisterfuzzy]

what do you have to get to convert to dual 45 DCOES? i looked at carbsunlimited and they dont have any conversion kits for that they have a conversion kit for 32-36 but no duals.

[gfrg88]

here you go this shold answer a lot of questions for you :D (http://www.3geez.com/forum/search)

[Vanilla Sky]

holy crap, that's like 5 threads you've posted on this same subject!

it's custom, like we've told you about 5 times...

[shepherd79]

First, you will have to buy two dual sidedraft carbs.
Second, you will have to custom make intake manifold.
Third, you will have custom mount them and custom tune it.

[rjudgey]

custom inlet manifold cost about £200 or $350 you need a downward angle of 10 degrees to make sure the webers are level. Uprated fuel pump Facet Red top or silver top competition, new lines, carb regulator with adjustable pressure and gauge you can get with or without filter, Other than that just the usual Weber parts for linkage, mounts, nuts, anti vibration kit etc, some jets and air correctors might be handy to tune properly unless you can find a VW or alfa Romeo specialist who can tune it for you properly.

[sinisterfuzzy]

custom inlet manifold cost about £200 or $350 you need a downward angle of 10 degrees to make sure the webers are level. Uprated fuel pump Facet Red top or silver top competition, new lines, carb regulator with adjustable pressure and gauge you can get with or without filter, Other than that just the usual Weber parts for linkage, mounts, nuts, anti vibration kit etc, some jets and air correctors might be handy to tune properly unless you can find a VW or alfa Romeo specialist who can tune it for you properly.

where can i get that stuff?

[gfrg88]

did you try looking anywhere before asking??????????

[bobafett]

what engines can you swap into the 3g accord, i have an automatic DX with 3 12" subs and lots of dynomat, and i need a little more getup and go. :) i was thinking like k20/24 hybrid swap or just say screw it and go for the full s2000 setup. does anyone know where i can get the swap kits for this?

[gfrg88]

i dont think thats a good engine for us, you should go with the Ridgelines engine instead.......