Air Conditioning!

[HondaBoy]

well i'm sure more than most of us dont have a working ac. me being one of them. if i remember correctly it hasnt been in working condition since about 1996. i have automotive ac/heating this semester. so i'm going to be fixing my ac. so far i've found that i need some mounting bolts on the compressor that have apparently fallen off due to a mechanic i used to take the car to not tightening them back. as of now i just need one bolt thats on the top to be able to put the belt on. i remember before the ac quit working it would always leak water onto the floor under the evaporator and blower. hopefully just the drain or whatever is clogged and thats it pretty much. i'm going to be converting it to R134a because R12 is really just not cost effective. i have to wait till next monday and tuesday for my next ac classes so i wont have done anything much in that time. i've had the car for about 4 years and here where i live its rediculously hot in the summer without the ac working. i really dont even care how much i have to spend on it either, i'll save a bunch of money doing it in class. all i have to buy is parts if need be. anyone recently had the ac fixed in your 3gee?

[Strugglebucket]

the water on the floor should be an easy fix. i fixed the ac awhile back, but i fixed it...for good...if you know what i mean.

have you seen this?http://3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35679

[Blkblurr]

Is it just low on freon or is there another problem? Do you know what's wrong with it?

[aerokid1987]

Does anyone know why my ac/heater control panel doesn't work? You can change the temperature and the speed of the fan but none of the lights come on on those buttons and pressing any of the buttons doesn't change the fan outlet. It does turn the AC on because i can hear the fan running but I don't feel any cold air. I suppose the freon needs to be charged. I hope I'm not jacking your thread, just thought I'd ask while someone was kinda on the subject.

[HondaBoy]

so what you cant change is the vents right? if so something may be shorted out or something. none of the LEDs light up when you pushed the buttons in? i dunno what it could be but maybe a short of some kind. as for my 3gee, the ac hasnt been working since '96 and has since released all the freon. poking the schrader valve should be an indication if theres any freon left and there wasnt a while back when i checked. so there is some sort of leak, but i dunno where its comming from. i'd expect it to be a fitting and not an actual component, but i could be wrong there. no telling yet till we do some testing. i'm thinking the compressor will be good, it hasnt been run since the freon leaked out so thats going to be a good thing. i actually wont run with low pressure, i'm not sure exactly what psi that is. my instructor said that i would probably not have to spend very much to get a good cold ac. he has an 1st gen integra so he is fairly familiar with what goes wrong on these. plus i'm sure he's seen this car many times for this problem. until next monday or tuesday i wont be able to do anything much to it so i'll have to wait till then to find my problem.

[carotman]

Is there an easy way to dect leaks? I plan to install the A/C on the Accord in the next few months and I don't want to spend too much on refilling it if I have a leak or 2.

[TheWatcher]

Is there an easy way to dect leaks?
Yeah, it's called a dye test.

For you, it would be easy, after all you completed the EFI conversion sucessfully.

Of course, w/o the right equipment, it would be cheaper to take it to an AC shop and have them do it.

Peace.

[Blkblurr]

Put the dye in after you have little or no pressure left in the system. That way it will get into the system. Put freon in and run the system for a few days. Use a black light in a dark garage to look for the green dye to glow. Usually the leaks in our systems come from the hose fittings going into the condensor core. The o-rings are brittle and leak. Replace them, use a vacuum pump if you have one to pull the system down, remove the pump and use a set of guages to see if you have a leak over time. If not fill again with freon and you should be good to go. You should probably run the vacuum pump on the system for several hours to dry it out before putting the freon back in. This will save you from having to replace the receiver / dryer.

[Kabuki]

If you have a real leak, you should be able to run it for 15-20 minutes and be able to locate any leaks. The most common problem we see with 3G A/C is the Keihin compressors failing. If you have a NipponDenso, you are probably okay. If you do end up having a leak, then just a long vacuum draw will NOT make the receiver/drier magically operate normally. I would suggest replacing it (rather inexpensive) anytime a leak is fixed or component replaced.

[Blkblurr]

If you have a real leak, you should be able to run it for 15-20 minutes and be able to locate any leaks. The most common problem we see with 3G A/C is the Keihin compressors failing. If you have a NipponDenso, you are probably okay. If you do end up having a leak, then just a long vacuum draw will NOT make the receiver/drier magically operate normally. I would suggest replacing it (rather inexpensive) anytime a leak is fixed or component replaced.
A long vacuum drawn on any liquid that boils when air pressure is removed will cause the liquid to vaporize. This will remove water from the dryer. Most don't do it because it takes a long time. The new dryers do not have the site glass in them. At least not the one I bought for mine. I did not use this one and I am willing to sell it if anyone is interested. It's still sealed in the original packing.

[Blkblurr]

Double post.

[w261w261]

Honda Boy -- you might want to reconsider switching over to R134a. I believe you lose 20% or so of your cooling capacity when you do this. I still have my original compressor working, and still use freon. On a really hot day like in TX, I wouldn't want to be down 20% on the cooling. If you get the system sealed up well, the cost of the freon refill should be a one-time thing.

Were the NipponDenso and the Keihin compressors interchangeable mount-wise, or am I stuck with the type that is on the car now (don't know which one I have)?

[Blkblurr]

You loose about 15% in our systems. I would agree. If you have strong sunlight on a hot day it will take awhile for R134A to cool. What I do is open the moonroof a little when I'm not in the car and run my ac on recirc. It takes about 15 minutes to cool the car down when the temp is 90deg and the dew point in the 70's.

[HondaBoy]

really i could give a shit about it being slightly less cold than R12. the thing is, money! i'm not spending extra money on R12 and i need someone with a specific license to buy it for me. we usually dont do anything with R12 besides putting it into the recovery tank. i dont think any of the cars we've done that had an R12 system havent been retrofitted to R134a. and again thats mainly the cost of the refrigerant and difficulty buying it. now i already knew about the O rings usually going bad on the fittings and i do think that will be one main cause for the leakage of refrigerant on my car. also last semester i helped out on an old chevy that was retrofitted by the ac class. it turned out to work very well, but then again new components were used, new compressor and drier were put in but the stock evaporator and condensor were used. it turned out very nice and blew cold as if it was new. anyway, for now i'm just going to get it working. i can do other stuff later on if i'm not happy with it, so i'm not worried about that.

[Jareds 89 LX-i]

If you do it yourself, R12 really isn't that expensive. Just get your EPA license (easy and $20) and you can buy it the same place I do... Ebay!! Sometimes you gotta keep looking for a real good deal, but they'r out there just gotta find 'em. I completely redid my a/c about 3 years ago, all new o-rings all around, new expansion valve, new drier, flushed system, etc. Nice long vacuum and filled it up with good ol' R12 and on a 85-ish degree day, sitting in the sun at IDLE, with the blower on HI, I was getting 34 degrees out the center vents. If you had the vents pointing right at you it would actually hurt after awile, hahah. Sadly though my high pressure hose sprung a leak so it all leaked out. I replaced the hose but haven't had a chance to flush it out and buy more R12 so I just used 134a temporarily (you've gotta have a/c down here), but will soon be flushing it out again and back to R12 we go! The 134a is ok and works but on a hot day it just takes tooooo long to get cold

[HondaBoy]

yeah, i've found that to be true mostly, on hot days it does take a bit of time to get the R134a systems really cold. if you raise the idle or drive a bit it starts cooling off nicely. anyway yesterday i got the compressor properly mounted and put the belt on it. i leak tested it and found in 10 minutes it leaked about 12 psi, so its got a medium sized leak so far. the compressor will engage so i dont have to be worried about the electrical side of this. the compressor tested good and the correct pressures showed on the high and low sides. that was about all i had time to do, so next week we're going to fill the compressor with new oil and see how well it runs. probably going to add the dye and run it some seeing if the leak is visible which i should be. i just hope i dont have to do shit on the evaporator since i'd rather not have to work inside the car. that's all for now. now over the years i've heard some things about the keihin compressor going out and the nippon denso one being the one of choice for one thats going to last from a lot of people on 3geez. i'm still not sure which one i have but will try and find out which it is.

[DBMaster]

On my car there is a small sticker on the driver's side of the radiator support panel that says it came with a Keihin. The one I have now is either a Denso or Sanden - whatever Honda started using in the 90's.

What I have read in more than one place is that the shaft seal on the Keihin is made of Viton which is incompatible with R134a, meaning you are going to lose all your refrigerant sooner or later.

Even with R12 this system can't hold a candle to the on in my old Pontiac with the A6 compressor. Now THAT was real A/C. Detroit knows what I am talking about. On cars that old there was a POA valve on the evaporator so the compressor did not cycle on and off. Thus, the clutch and shaft seal lasted nearly forever. When my pulley bearing seized I just replaced the clutch pulley assembly and it was good to keep going.

I have to give Honda Boy Kuddos for living in Corpus without A/C - yuck! when I lived there I never took mine out of REC position because of the 85% humidity and all of the crappy cars on the road blowing blue smoke.

[HondaBoy]

well, i'll give my teacher that info about the keihin compressor so he can recommend what would be best. if i can afford needed parts then i will probably have the thing going real well. i hope my financial aid comes in soon so i can use it to help out on this project. also i trying to get some money together for a mccullok hid kit from a buddy, he wants $200 with all parts and wiring so i'm gonna go for that too. hopefully i wont have to end up spending that much all together on the ac system.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well since your on such a tight budget look into Freeze 12. Im on my second year with it in my old 77 dodge. I just slappped in 3 cans and drive it. No oil change no seal and I did not vacuum the system. It might cost you $30.

As far a leaks my expansion valve I suspect is the source of my leak in my Honda. I did the 134 a conversion in 95 about a yeat after I got the car and it usually goes thru 3 cans a year. I put a can of the leak stop in it just for SG and its had air this spring so it might be somewhere else. It was the only place I did not change the O-ring. I have a sniffer and thats where it goes buggie.


wp

[Kabuki]

A long vacuum drawn on any liquid that boils when air pressure is removed will cause the liquid to vaporize. This will remove water from the dryer. Most don't do it because it takes a long time. The new dryers do not have the site glass in them. At least not the one I bought for mine. I did not use this one and I am willing to sell it if anyone is interested. It's still sealed in the original packing.

Yeah, thanks for the physics review, but there's more to it than that. The silica bead in the R/D don't like to give up the water without extra heat. and even then, new units just work better. The new unit SHOULD have a sight glass. All the units that my online catalogs show have them.

[Blkblurr]

Yeah, thanks for the physics review, but there's more to it than that. The silica bead in the R/D don't like to give up the water without extra heat. and even then, new units just work better. The new unit SHOULD have a sight glass. All the units that my online catalogs show have them.
Didn't wnat to give a physics review but I do like people on this forum to have information that is both practical and correct. Of course it's always better to put in new as you mention but many people on here may want other ideas. In my case, I wanted to keep the site glass in the old one. the new one didn't have it. By the way, adding heat to the silica beads does exactly the same thing as removing the atmosphere. Causes the moisture to boil off. Please don't view my response in a negative way as I believe you will be a good source of info on A/C systems.

Jim

[rick_spiff]

On fixing the lights/vent controls, you will have to pull the dash and get at that panel with the lights and buttons on it. On the back you will find a lot of dirty electrical connections (don't look at the plug connecting it to the wiring harness, look at the back of the controls). You will probably have to solder a bunch of broken connections, and clean the dirty ones with rubbing alchohol. That will get you your lights and controls back... unless something was unplugged or a controller box is busted. In which case, check the manual. I don't know where all of them are hidden.

[HondaBoy]

i have never had to completely pull the dash out to get to the air controls or any bulbs or switches on the dash or instrument cluster. anyway, i had found a belt in my garage. i had no reason to think it wasnt the correct belt because it fit, but i kept slipping off the pulley and wore one side of it. i went ahead and got a new belt and it turned out that the belt i found in my garage just so happened to be the same size, just not the right belt itself. wierd, i dunno where it came from. anyway, next week i will be doing some leak tests using some old recovered refrigerant. i already added oil with dye in it. the compressor tested out good, pulls and pushes very well. i still cant find any indication of which compressor it is though. i'll tell how the leak tests go, should be interesting.

[HondaBoy]

ok, this week i put freon in. worked great and blew ice cold until the pressure switch went out. i could hear it hissing when i put nitrogen in the system for a leak test before, but it finally blew out with the freon charge and compressor running. i got the switch and will put it in next week.

[nswst8]

For R134a conversion sight glass on fliter/drier is not nessasry. But a new condenser is recommended to help handle the higher pressure.

Use gauges to check pressures or measure in amount of R134a. 85% of what is required for r12 work good for me.

I listed a couple of good sights concerning this info. Our systems are easy to maintain and keep running. Most guys on here just don't want to maintain their A/C for fear of the weight or extra gas usage for having the A/C on. HA HA HA HA HA HA. I think its just because they fear working on the A/C.

[Blkblurr]

For R134a conversion sight glass on fliter/drier is not nessasry. But a new condenser is recommended to help handle the higher pressure.
Use gauges to check pressures or measure in amount of R134a. 85% of what is required for r12 work good for me.
I listed a couple of good sights concerning this info. Our systems are easy to maintain and keep running. Most guys on here just don't want to maintain their A/C for fear of the weight or extra gas usage for having the A/C on. HA HA HA HA HA HA. I think its just because they fear working on the A/C.
I thought the new condensor was to create more surface area for better heat disipation. R134 A operates at nearly the same pressure because we still have the original compressor. It just doesn't cool as well becasue it doesn't expand as much when it evaporates. Maybe I'm all wet???

[HondaBoy]

i dunno about replacing my condensor since its not leaking. hopefully the evaporator will hold up, i'd rather not have to take all the under dash crap out. i bought a new drier today. it doesnt have a sight glass like my stock one, but it should be ok. i also got a good pressure switch from the junk yard to replace my busted one. my goal is to have the parts installed and working by the end of tonights class. if not tomorrow night. but it shouldnt be much more than installing a few new parts and O rings. then vacuum and fill the system. i'll tell y'all how it goes. hopefully well because its hot as shit and humid as a mofo here!

[rick_spiff]

I'll be damned. According to the shop manual, you just take out the glove box (one screw for each of the two hinges), the metal brace underneath it (four screws, I believe), then you can open that plastic box-thingy that holds the evap. core. Clean it off (SOFT BRUSH & SMALL AMOUNT OF WATER), or remove if you need to test the temperature switch or replace the expansion valve.

Here I thought the whole dash had to come off. Phew!

The controls can be pulled out and the wiring from the switch checked w/o removing the dash as well. I stand corrected and relieved. Hopefully I'll be cleaning/recharging my system this week.

Stupid compressor clutch works fine on a wire hooked up to the battery, but the wire that comes off the compressor relay can't deliver the amps I need. So... new relay and wiring? That'll be easy. :)

Good luck getting your A/C up!

[nswst8]

I thought the new condensor was to create more surface area for better heat disipation. R134 A operates at nearly the same pressure because we still have the original compressor. It just doesn't cool as well becasue it doesn't expand as much when it evaporates. Maybe I'm all wet???


This is why we use no more than 90% of R12 capacity. newer condenser designs help to disipate heat, greater cooling of R134 gas.

[Kabuki]

I was unaware of any condenser design updates. Honda does not list a difference by application. I do know for sure that proper cooling fan operation makes a BIG difference in cooling performance.

[HondaBoy]

ok, yesterday we didnt really go into the shop. but my instructor let me work on my car some. i put in the new drier, new O rings, new pressure switch and added nitrogen to check for any leakage. i let the nitrogen sit in there with the gauges on it and it kept the pressure for the entire time. i left it in there over night also so today i will check to see if it has leaked out. i'm pretty sure i've fixed my problems so far. today i will put the refrigerant in the system and add some oil with dye in it. the compressor oporates without making much noise which is a good sign. as for the condensor, it would be nice to replace but is not necessary. also, i need to clear out the evaporator drain thats under the car, i remember it used to leak condensation into the car instead of going out the drain. so thats about it for what i've done and will do today.

[HondaBoy]

ok, i ran a vacuum on the system and it held it well. put some freon in and its working good. i'm supposed to watch and see if it starts leaking again. hopefully not, but for now its doing good.

been driving it around some. the ac is doing well, but i still need to see how well it does in the hot day time. i think the fitting at the top of the condensor may be leaking, so i might have to replace the O ring again with a different one. it was sort of hard to get at, so maybe i just didnt tighten it all the way. but i'll see. as for my compressor, i think it is indeed a nippon/denso. it has the 4 groove pully, which would make it a 10 cylinder. heh. well, more on this later. i'm happy so far. next step it some dark window tint.

[HondaBoy]

after about a week of having ac, i found some more leaks. i had replaced an O ring on the discharge hose where it connects to the condensor. so i thought i was good, but the next day it quit working. so lucky for me my other instructors let me work on my ac in their classes. i found it was my discharge hose that was leaking, at the crimp, which wasnt really a surprise. anyway, i replaced that yesterday and hope that's all i'm going to be doing for a while. makes summer weather tolerable.

[carotman]

THis thread is nice. I'll install the A/C on my B20A. I'm not sure if I should be using the A20A compressor or the one from the B20A.

I'll check if parts availability aren't too much of a problem for that B20A compressor.

[HondaBoy]

i would try and use the nippon denso 10 cylinder compressor from the A20. i dunno if the discharge and suction lines from the accord will fit the B20 compressor, but if they do i think it would actually be ok to use the B20's. i'm actually thinking of putting R12 into my system instead of the R134a, just for the reason of it not getting below 55 degrees at the vent. although that is very good and i cant complain.