PDA

View Full Version : Auto Transmission Problems



Einstein
05-09-2002, 05:35 PM
Just got the car this week. Changed the transmission fluid with valvoline max life dexron III, thinking shifting would be smoother.

When the car shifts, I the dash makes noise it's so violent sometimes.

Have I grown accustomed to newer cars that shift better, or is there improvement to be found?

I just got my Helm shop manual. The closest thing I see to a fix is trying to adjust the throttle-to-tranny cable.

Help if you have advice :D

jteuton
05-09-2002, 06:22 PM
sounds like it's ready to make it's departure....you might try trans-x.....jteuton

hondaisthebest
05-09-2002, 06:52 PM
Maybe its your tv cable. but i got the same problem that you.
I change my transmission fluid with honda atf Z and now the car is running like a new one no more rought shift and more power.
Dont why honda tranny love honda fluid??;)

Einstein
05-10-2002, 06:07 AM
I'll use the Honda ATF-Z then.

I noticed how much better the CR-V shifted after it's first tranny fluid change at 30K.

Must be magic in the bottle. :)

vtec11
05-10-2002, 07:51 AM
how many miles are on the car ? the motor mounts might be shot.

my tranny shifted like crap. the whole dash and steering would jerk.

i changed the front, rear, and side mounts and its much more smoother. ie. dosn't jerk the car.

i still have to replace the torque strut rod thingy. i will start a new topic for that.

Einstein
05-10-2002, 08:56 AM
The car has 138,000 miles. I'm going to adjust the valves this weekend to see if the idle smooths out. Otherwise, it's another reason to believe the engine mounts are bad if the steering wheel keeps shaking at idle.

locknload68
05-10-2002, 10:41 AM
You can look at the front one (right behind the radiator) and if there is fluid all around it, that means it's bad.

I'm pretty sure it can be shot even without the fluid leaking...but I know if the fluid is leaking, it's a goner.

Einstein
05-10-2002, 11:25 AM
There's fluid down there, but I can't identify it because it could be oil.

Night Rida
05-10-2002, 05:40 PM
Hey whats up man!
i got your answer, my car has 125,000 miles and it shifted like
:barf: SHIT! Just like yours! Well it was a long time since I had the tranny fluid changed but pls keep in mind that changing the tranny fluid only removes a certain amount of fluid from your car, not ALL the fluid! When you normally change tranny fluid you remove only like a few liters I believe! What you need is a tranny flush done!!! Honda calls it a transmission flush and I just had it done to my car, cost me like $130.00 if I remember correctly!
They use the BG 44K machine which pumps out ALL the old tranny fluid from your car and replaces it with new Honda tranny fluid! it takes out like 12-16 liters of fluid and keeps pumping new fluid untill the color on the machine changes from black -brown-to RED! That shit is soo sweeet! The machine is! But yah it REEALLY works especially since the car(yours) seems like it has NOT had proper care in changing fluid done! Jteuton said Departure time??? Hell no!!! i know it cost a little more but its the best way to fix that rough shifting man, trust me IT works!
Jay
Night Rida:badass:

hondaisthebest
05-10-2002, 07:51 PM
What night rida just said is true.
When you drain the old stuff you get only the
half of the fluid about 3 liters. Our tranny are taking i thinks
6.4 liters. If the condition of the fluids is very bad you can do a
flush or also try to remove the half and after a week remove
again another half until you get a clear tranny fluid.(still expensive)

Einstein
05-11-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by hondaisthebest
What night rida just said is true.
When you drain the old stuff you get only the
half of the fluid about 3 liters. Our tranny are taking i thinks
6.4 liters. If the condition of the fluids is very bad you can do a
flush or also try to remove the half and after a week remove
again another half until you get a clear tranny fluid.(still expensive)

Yep, the drain interval of 30K miles considers the fact that only half drains out.

I found that the car was maintained reasonably well, and the old ATF wasn't very dirty. I'm not going to flush, I hear it can cause problems, and shouldn't be used unless the car was poorly maintained and needs some major clean-up.

BTW, the valves are adjusted. The car starts up easier and idles MUCH smoother. Shifts are still somewhat jerky, but I'm comparing that to my CR-V which shifts like butter.

njpeter
05-12-2002, 06:26 PM
so the front motor mount is oil filled?, while that makes perfect sense to me, it certainly explains where that damm oil has been coming from. Couldn't imagine where it was coming from. So what's that part going to cost, I'd bet $75 minimum.

Micah 89LXi
05-12-2002, 11:08 PM
i had the same problem..used to jerk so hard it would make the plastic in the dash creak...but thru regular maintanance it seemed to fix itself..i dunno what it is...but since i got it ive been putting akit of work into it..and its running a whole lot smooother than when i first got it..i dont notice the jerking anymore..it went away..i know it doesnt help much..but i use valvoline max life oil..havent changed the transmission fluid yet...dunno if i need to

Don87LX
05-13-2002, 10:07 AM
OK. I have a Weber and am a psycho for fiddling here is my experence with the transaxle.

My TV (throttle value) cable DOES NOT connect to my throttle linkage. While adjusting my throttle cable on the throttle linkage I noticed it had the following effects on my autobox's shifting.

With the throttle adjusted some what loose, with slightly too much, deflection and not hitting WOT
The transmission would shift very roughly. The car would jerk. it wasn't noisy, but you could definately feel the shift. Also it would shift early. Around 5k with the pedal floored. My guess is this is because the tranny is trying to shift like the car is at WOT when it is in fact not. (however I am not a transaxle expert and dont really know why this happened I am just saying what happened and giving you my theroy as to the cause)

With the throttle adjusted with no slack, less than 1/16'' deflection, and hitting WOT the car shifts like a dream. I was almost tricked into thinking I was in my mothers big ass crysler. even with the pedal buried and the car screaming at redline, the shift is barely dectable, save the RPM change and the rush of more tourque.

My advice is to make sure your throttle and TV cables are properly adjusted before assuming you have a dead transaxle or spending 130 on a flush that may not be yet warrented.

87accord
05-13-2002, 10:08 AM
Dam

azazel_18_2
03-20-2006, 02:22 PM
I have an 87 accord lx with an auto transmission. Have had it a little while and has been doing this since I had it. Every once in a while when I shift into neutral or park it makes kind of a clatter or short grinding noise. It doesn't really sound like grinding but thats the best I can explain. It shifts fine into every gear with no noise but sometimes when I shift to park it does it. It kind of sounds like an old man fart. I hate these auto's. My 89 got a 5sp put in it. I may do the same with this but would rather not. It still shifts great. Also, the car is supposed to take Dextron 2 transmission fluid but that isn't made anymore?! I put dextron 3 in my 89 and the transmission went shortly thereafter. Tranny fluid in my 87 looks ok I just need help on if I should do anything or not. The fluid is at the right level when checking it after it has ran three minutes. I just need help!!

HondaBoy
03-20-2006, 02:31 PM
that sound you are describing sounds like the parking gear lock thing. i dont know why that would be making that noise, unless the previous owner had put it in park before comming to a complete stop. i really dont know what the long term effects can be on that part making that noise. also i dont really like the automatic much. mine is a pain in the ass. sometimes if i let 2nd shift hard it makes 3rd gear go out until i top out 2nd gear and let it shift to 3rd from there. i've never heard of anyone having the problem i have though.

azazel_18_2
03-22-2006, 08:24 AM
it only does it when its cold. When it warms up it is fine. It also does it if you shift it into neutral.

spnrx
03-22-2006, 09:03 AM
Sadly enough my car has both problems ya'll just listed. I used 2 qts of Dextron 3 and 1 qt. of Lucas.

azazel_18_2
03-22-2006, 09:13 AM
Did the Lucas fix the prob? It doesn't really affect driving but just doesn't sound real nice.

kaltenacht
03-22-2006, 09:14 AM
My car is doing the same thing so dont feel bad. From what I gather our cars have a weak tranny in them. The Dexron 2 fluid you are refering to is not longer made, BUT it was replaced by Dexron 3, which will still function as Dexron 2. The thing is though, I would only go with genuine HONDA tranny fluid which can be bought from your local dealer. The reason is (according to the honda tech at my dealer) that the Honda fluid is a special grading, and has extra things in it for OUR cars that Dexron 3 doesnt. I believe it is about $5.50 a quart from my dealer. And trust me it will be worth the extra few bucks a quart, especially if your tranny is making noise. I think ours take 3 1/2 quarts drained. If you want to go the extra mile, add some Lucas Transmission fix. Its like 8.99 a bottle at Autozone but it works GREAT! Hope that helps. If you dont know where the drainplug helps, use the search feature on our site, There is a thread that show a picture someplace around here.

86-accord-lxi
03-25-2006, 08:24 PM
I would only go with genuine HONDA tranny fluid

I second that, Here's a link of mine that might help you :

http://www.daisyscreations.com/brandon/transmission.html

LXi87Accord
04-03-2006, 12:43 PM
I have a auto 87 accord. When I shift from Park to Drive the car tries to stall. Any idea what could be going on?

HondaBoy
04-03-2006, 12:54 PM
well, what are the rpm's reading on the dash as you put it into drive? also, mine would do that when i didnt have the carb tuned correctly. yours is fuel injected so thats not going to be it. but you may have a vacuum line leak. mine would stall when in drive with a vacuum leak. there are a few vacuum lines on the manifold on your engine. you could check those with the engine running, listening for a leak. usually a hissing noise. your transmission could just need adjustment, but its hard to tell.

LXi87Accord
04-03-2006, 12:56 PM
The RPMs are at about 1300 when cold and 1000 when warm

HondaBoy
04-03-2006, 11:37 PM
i would then think it could be your engine is running too fast. if you cant find a vacuum leak on the maifold, then you may just have to adjust the idle screw. but theres something making the car run that high of an rpm, and when shifting into gear i'd think the high rpms would cause it to stall like that. sounds like it will probably be an easy problem to fix when you find out the cause. i doubt the transmission is messed up though. does it still shift nice and smooth?

LXi87Accord
04-04-2006, 11:14 AM
The idle is that high cause the car shakes really bad when the idle is below 1000 and it drops that low when i turn the a/c on. The tranny shifts ok it's rough when I floor it

Devon
06-17-2006, 02:43 PM
ok the car is a 89 LXi auto. allright here are the Qs. First of all the cars biggest problem with the trans is the weird shifting problem. I will be cruising along and slow down to turn a corner then the tranny insted of shifing to second shifts to first for a second and then clunks back into second. if I floor it around a corner it will shift to first and stay in it then go to second which is fine since this is full throttle, but under only part throttle is should just shift to second. as I do not believe this is good for the trans. I checked the fluid when it was colder as the dipstick access sucks on these cars and i did not want to burn my hand off. the cars fluid was brown and looked to have some cluth material but nothing too bad. I know I probalbly wont get a firm anwser but for the fluid I was planning on using valvoline dexron 3 and putting in some trans X or lucas. then flush with dexron 3 till I find some honda ATF. my next question was that I heard HONDA ATF wasn't around when our cars came out and that it will cause unsatisfactory shift performance and that dexron 2 is what the car should have but it is not made anymore. I want my car to SHIFT firm and especially HARD. so please let me know what fluids you guys use on your hondas and how they shift.

Accordaone
06-17-2006, 11:15 PM
ok the car is a 89 LXi auto. allright here are the Qs. First of all the cars biggest problem with the trans is the weird shifting problem. I will be cruising along and slow down to turn a corner then the tranny insted of shifing to second shifts to first for a second and then clunks back into second. if I floor it around a corner it will shift to first and stay in it then go to second which is fine since this is full throttle, but under only part throttle is should just shift to second. as I do not believe this is good for the trans. I checked the fluid when it was colder as the dipstick access sucks on these cars and i did not want to burn my hand off. the cars fluid was brown and looked to have some cluth material but nothing too bad. I know I probalbly wont get a firm anwser but for the fluid I was planning on using valvoline dexron 3 and putting in some trans X or lucas. then flush with dexron 3 till I find some honda ATF. my next question was that I heard HONDA ATF wasn't around when our cars came out and that it will cause unsatisfactory shift performance and that dexron 2 is what the car should have but it is not made anymore. I want my car to SHIFT firm and especially HARD. so please let me know what fluids you guys use on your hondas and how they shift.

Accordaone
06-17-2006, 11:24 PM
The original manual called for Dexron II, but now everybody claims you must use Honda's expensive fluid. It contains frictionizers, same as Lucas, etc. I use dexron after a rebuild, and it shifts great. My own belief is Honda's ATF is a sales gimmick-5 times what Dexron charges- but who knows, my tranny works fine and the original owner's manual and the service manual call for DexronII. Dexron III is available at most auto supply stores!

Devon
06-18-2006, 03:59 PM
I have drained and refilled twice now with the dexron iii no slips! but I do want to compair my accords shift quality with another accord so I know if its working ok.

AccordEpicenter
06-18-2006, 05:55 PM
just so you know, hondas ATF-Z1 is friction modified vs dexron, i highly reccomend sticking to the ATF-Z1 although you can use dexron, it somtimes makes honda autos shift hard.

Devon
06-18-2006, 05:57 PM
Well GOOD I want it to shift real hard in every gear! I want to do full throttle starts and have it shift like a shift kit.

azazel_18_2
06-19-2006, 05:59 AM
I would only use HONDA. I am not a big OEM parts freak but when it comes to the ATF and the Power steering fluid I am a believer. I changed my fluid in my auto and not a thousand miles later it started acting up. I changed the fluid in a friend of mine's car and it did the same damn thing. I tried additives and everything including lucas after that and nothing worked. I said to heel with it and went five speed. My fried had hers rebuilt and is using Honda atf.

Zwolfe
06-20-2006, 07:16 PM
Despite wanting the auto transmission to shift like a "shift kit" you don't really want that in your Accord, well, if you want it to be around for any length of time.

I don't use Honda's transmission fluid but I do use Kendall Dexron III/Mercon fluid.

To be honest I don't care what the hell type of transmission fluid you put in your auto transmission but avoid Valvoline "Max Life" Dexron III. It killed the transmission in my 84 Accord. It will shift great for 2 days or so, then afterwards you'd be lucky to get into 3rd gear. We put it into my fathers 89 LXi coupe and it started to shift rougher than before, but thankfully we drained it before it caused permanent damage after seeing what happened to the 84 Accord I used to have.

Kendall Dexron III/Mercon fluid is supreme stuff. Other than the idiotic experiment with Valvoline "Max Life" Dexron III, all my transmissions shift fast and very smooth.

214K on the 84 Accord until I retired it because of the Valvoline, 87 Accord to 220K miles, 89 Accord to 224K miles, 163K miles on the Odyssey EX, no transmission rebuilds on any and all shift damn fine (excluding the 84).

It's hard to find. I have to have a local shop special order cases of it for me and other people in my family that drive Honda's. But it's worth it.

My family ran an Import garage since the 70's until late 90's and we discovered Kendall is the best ATF fluid for Honda transmissions from trial & error. We didn't sell product lines, we fixed stuff. That's the best that could be done that we could find.

chainz
06-21-2006, 11:26 AM
If your car is trying to jump all the way to 1st under light/moderate throtle your 'kick-down' cable may need adjusted. It's a cable that runs from the accelerator pedal to the transmission to tell the transmission how far into the throttle you are. If it is misadjusted it would cause a downshift under light/moderate throttle because the transmission thinks you've got it at medium/heavy throttle.

dalinxz
07-07-2006, 01:05 PM
I think I figured out the problem with the transmission, last time I told you guys about a clunk and it idling really high, when your at a stop sign or lights and your braking its basically like your accelerating at the same time, because of the high idle.

Well today I was stuck on the highway bumper to bumper and its a really hot day and wouldnt you know it the problem starts again. I pulled to the shoulder and let it cool down for 15 minutes and went back into the lane, it was good until about 10 minutes later when it started doing it again, anyhow i kept going and finally traffic started back up to 100 again so I was going and I guess the air that was being put through into the engine must have solved the problem and it was good again.

So Im guessing it was the heat. So Im thinking is changing the oil a solution or what solution is out there?

Vanilla Sky
07-07-2006, 02:58 PM
auto or manual?

Cant Stop
07-09-2006, 07:47 AM
i searched the threads and lots of people say use honda fluid that is fine but it is sunday and honda is closed so can i use dexron III instead of the recommended II since II doesnt seem to be made anymore?

3G Jester
07-09-2006, 10:37 AM
in my 6th gen i used mobile 1 synthetic ATF (its dex III if you read the back pannel) and its been great to me. but. its not a 3rd gen.

Accordaone
07-09-2006, 10:52 AM
i searched the threads and lots of people say use honda fluid that is fine but it is sunday and honda is closed so can i use dexron III instead of the recommended II since II doesnt seem to be made anymore?
The original manuals for the '87 LX called for Dexron II. Apparently, Honda fluid added frictionizers just like Lucas and other additives use. I wouldn't hesitate to use it, personally.(cheaper, too)

dalinxz
07-09-2006, 11:26 AM
auto

A20A1
07-09-2006, 12:22 PM
Yup I use Mobil and a little bit of B&M Trick Shift.

Never had problems with it.

Did have problems with a different domestic brand... it caused both my hoses to explode. :(
I should have read the lable.

Cant Stop
07-09-2006, 12:50 PM
awesome, now for the bad news...
i am going to trade in the ole girl for a new 07 honda fit sport
unless someone here in florida or elsewhere want to come on down to orlando and buy it for no less than $1000, needs cv's even though it is still driveable and most likely needs a new rear main oil seal, still gets 20-25 hwy and air works new tires etc. bout a quart of oil every 2 weeks

Vanilla Sky
07-09-2006, 04:08 PM
you really should add a transmission oil cooler. i got mine in the junkyard for $8 off of an aerostar van. go ahead and flush with fresh honda ATF while you're at it.

A20A1
07-09-2006, 06:13 PM
or you could buy mine :) http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53423

dalinxz
07-09-2006, 07:22 PM
you really should add a transmission oil cooler. i got mine in the junkyard for $8 off of an aerostar van. go ahead and flush with fresh honda ATF while you're at it.

this looks like a cheap and greater method! How hard is it to remove and install on the 3gee?

Vanilla Sky
07-09-2006, 07:46 PM
we had to basically cut the brackets to work. it wasn't too hard, but the removal from the van can be hard if you can't find one with its front end gone like i was able to do.

and honestly, A20A1's will cool better. even one of the ones he's selling will cool better. you could buy them, part them out, and sell the extra cooler. it's something to consider.

A20A1
07-09-2006, 07:52 PM
Its supposed to be run in pairs though if you bypass the stock cooler.
Which I think is better anyways because who wants coolant temp to determine the lowest temp the trans fluid can be.

Vanilla Sky
07-09-2006, 08:11 PM
i ran mine with just the aerostar cooler and had no problems. the aerostar cooler is enough to cool the trans in an aerostar, a vehicle meant to tow loads. another member here from the area had no problems with his trans until he busted it doing holeshots one night with low fluid. in both cases, our coolant lines went from too hot to touch to cool enough to hold onto.

depending on your climate, you can overcool your trans. if you live in a cold climate, you really should leave your stock coolant line in place. the exact reason i bypassed my stock cooler would be good if your car saw freezing for any real time during the year. i know my trans didn't work woth crap unless it had warmed up a bit.

88Accord-DX
07-09-2006, 08:47 PM
Pull the return line off the radiator to make sure there isn't a clogging problem, & tranny fluid is flowing appropriate. If anything, flush the sytem. I would last look at the torque convertor as the last resort. Sounds like a good flush should be suffecient.

EDIT- If there is a automatic transmission filter, replace it.

A20A1
07-09-2006, 09:00 PM
I think a shop needs to replace it... althought some places I went to would not touch the trans filter like it was some bad omen if they replaced it because of the whole metal shaving myth and what not being needed on such a high milage trans or some such.

88Accord-DX
07-09-2006, 09:19 PM
For future referance, Dextron I, II, III is just a mater of additives they add to help belts & gears in the automatic transmissions as time changes.

Just like Mopar 7160,III,& +4.......

Vanilla Sky
07-09-2006, 09:21 PM
it's because our transmission filters are inside the transmission and require you to pull the trans and disassemble the trans in order to replace said filter. it's quite a pain and simply isn't worth it. a simple flush like Derek suggested is enough for most situations.

Kabuki
07-20-2006, 12:45 PM
Honda ATF, on the other hand is actually designed for use in Honda Automatic transmissions. No matter what the nay-sayers tell you, it really does make a difference in the shift quality and transmission longevity.

Blkblurr
07-20-2006, 12:48 PM
Honda ATF, on the other hand is actually designed for use in Honda Automatic transmissions. No matter what the nay-sayers tell you, it really does make a difference in the shift quality and transmission longevity.
I agree. I put dextron II in mine cause I didn't have any Honda fluid. It shifted very hard. I drained it and put Honda fluid in it and it was back to normal again.

A20A1
07-24-2006, 12:43 PM
I have a auto 87 accord. When I shift from Park to Drive the car tries to stall. Any idea what could be going on?

You might want to check the diaphragm that ups the idle... I think EFI has one.
It should go to work when you shift into drive.

2oodoor
06-14-2008, 04:02 AM
bump to a good auto tx thread

epic1400cs
06-16-2008, 04:24 AM
With reminder to stick with Honda ATF particularly with 3rd gen Accord A/T!

It is now well known in Japan that Honda listed Dexron in the manual only for legal purposes.

Our A/T is very different from others.(yes our cars are special! hehe)
Even a top engineer from Mitsubishi A/T R&D pointed this out on the net.
The Honda ATF is backward compatible so no problem.
You can try other fluide but there is a great chance of breaking your A/T (I know one guy who did it)
Dexron is very vague and loose standard according to the engineer when it comes to the ATF.

You are warned.

2oodoor
06-16-2008, 04:54 AM
Mighty Products are sold to professionals only for the most part. They tell me they are selling a lot of this stuff. ( I am so sick of this crappy samsung cam phone)
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/1213620679.jpg

epic1400cs
06-16-2008, 09:22 AM
Is this specifically formulated for Honda ATF or more general purpose? I am just wondered.

MessyHonda
06-17-2008, 04:52 AM
i just did an engine swap into my dx...and i just got some honda ATF...and the trans is so much smoother....feels like a new car...also the a20a3 motor helps...even on with a carb

carotman
06-17-2008, 09:14 AM
Is this specifically formulated for Honda ATF or more general purpose? I am just wondered.

Hmmm, the bottle says it's for Honda but lists a lot of other brands too.

2oodoor
06-17-2008, 09:21 AM
Hmmm, the bottle says it's for Honda but lists a lot of other brands too.

they have a similar product I know seems to work that converts dexron to mercon V which is synthetic.
Mighty does not need to advertise gimicks, and do not sell to the public. I am not endorsing the product just bringing the information forward.
The rep came by last week and showed me an intake cleaning kit they now sell, around 23 dollars US. It alledgedly is comparable to BG products, only this one comes with it's own hose, self propelled that goes in teh thottole body lip or in PVC hose. You run the car and it cleans the plenum, and intake valves. Also includes the in tank solvent, again comparable to BG44K.

Dr_Snooz
06-17-2008, 09:01 PM
I hear what you guys are saying about the Honda ATF and I don't doubt you, but I'm sceptical. My BMW is the superlative hyper-sensitive, fussy, poorly designed transmission. The manual insists that you have to use BMW fluid or YOU WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY (in all caps like that), blow up your tranny, blah, blah, blah. BMW thinks their fluid is worth $25/qt (x10 qts for a normal service). A rebuilt tranny is $2,500 - $5,000, so you have a huge incentive to use BMW's fluid. As time went by, however, random guys on discussion boards starting putting in Mobil 1, Valvoline, just about anything and the trannies continued to run without problem. Turns out BMW's magical $25/qt. trans fluid is plain old Dexron III partial synthetic. All those capital letters are so much hooey.

Okay, so I'm a fool to put up with a blasted German car, but my point remains. I bet that apart from a friction modifier (about $8/btl from any tranny shop) there isn't anything special about Honda fluid.

Dr_Snooz
06-17-2008, 09:03 PM
Oh yeah, it's not really stated in this thread, but the throttle cable adjusts your shift points. Tighten it up and the engine will rev higher before shifting. Loosen it and the engine will shift at lower revs.

A side effect is that when loosened, the shifts will also become smoother.

epic1400cs
06-18-2008, 03:33 PM
I hear what you guys are saying about the Honda ATF and I don't doubt you, but I'm sceptical. My BMW is the superlative hyper-sensitive, fussy, poorly designed transmission. The manual insists that you have to use BMW fluid or YOU WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY (in all caps like that), blow up your tranny, blah, blah, blah. BMW thinks their fluid is worth $25/qt (x10 qts for a normal service). A rebuilt tranny is $2,500 - $5,000, so you have a huge incentive to use BMW's fluid. As time went by, however, random guys on discussion boards starting putting in Mobil 1, Valvoline, just about anything and the trannies continued to run without problem. Turns out BMW's magical $25/qt. trans fluid is plain old Dexron III partial synthetic. All those capital letters are so much hooey.

Okay, so I'm a fool to put up with a blasted German car, but my point remains. I bet that apart from a friction modifier (about $8/btl from any tranny shop) there isn't anything special about Honda fluid.

I posted this in this thread (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47220) earlier but you might be interested.

I see your point. I had a chance to ask exactly same question as you have to the specialist I mentioned before. He has been working for Japanese car company Mitsubishi for last 35 years as top engineer in A/T development and retired recently from its top position. I feel that ATF is not the main cause of your AT problem in the thread but I just write it down here as his opinion is very interesting and sound. He is Japanese and I translated what he said so apology for poor direct translation.

"Very low coefficient of friction μ is the particularity of Honda ATF compare to majority of the ATF from other manufacturer. I believe Honda set such a low μ factor in order to reduce judder from the AT. Therefore, Honda should have clearly stated that the Dexron ATF is not suitable for Honda AT. This is simply because there is no μ factor criteria in DEXRON standard. However, in US and EU there is very strong pressure from antitrust law that limits Honda to state such a restriction regarding the use of ATF on users manual or workshop manual.

It is great shame that the company have to recommend an ATF that doesn't best match to their AT. This type of contradiction may come from a distance between R & D department and manual publishing department. In any case, only for Honda, if you want to avoid any trouble you should use genuine ATF.'

Umm, I didn't know that DEXRON don't define μ factor of ATF. I just put it here for you to judge by yourself.

Dr_Snooz
06-18-2008, 08:49 PM
Thanks for the thread. Sorry for dragging the dead horse out of the barn and beating it some more, but that almost sounds like what I'm saying. Adding a friction modifier to your Dexron ATF will give you the same results as OEM Honda fluid. I've never used Honda fluid in any of my Hondas (4 Hondas now) and haven't had a problem.

As far as I understand it, the friction modifiers are there to smooth out the shifts. As long as the shifts aren't harsh, it's all good. Effective detergents and good seal conditioners are much more important now, I think. The seals and o-rings in these gearboxes are getting so old that good conditioning is of the utmost importance.

If you feel like Honda fluid is best, I won't tell you to stop using it. I'm sure it's great. I just don't think that a quality Dexron oil is a deal-breaker, necessarily.

I could be wrong (I often am) and maybe there's a trans guy on here somewhere who can set me straight, but so far I'm not seeing a compelling reason to make a special trip to the dealer.

HondaBoy
06-18-2008, 11:20 PM
when i replaced my automatic i used regular universal type dexron/mercon fluid. shifted ok, but way to hard and not as efficently. after refilling it the Honda ATF-Z1 its so much better. its kind of like the mitsubish brand fluid, if you substitute it in them they usually shift all wierd.

Zwolfe
06-19-2008, 07:03 AM
I have 268k miles or so on my auto. Shifts like a dream generally. I try to change the fluid every 2 or 3 oil changes, I do a lot of driving so that's 2 times a year minimum.

My source for the Kendall Dexron III/Mercon finally dried up, as they quit getting supplies from that particular distributor they were getting it from.

I have enough Kendall ATF for one more change, and then I'm probably going to try and get a hold of Wolf's Head universal synthetic ATF.

epic1400cs
06-19-2008, 10:01 AM
I am not an engineer specialized in ATF development and I was reading between lines of what the Mitsubishi AT boss was talking about with my small eyes :D

Very low coefficient of friction μ is the particularity of Honda ATF but there is no μ factor criteria in DEXRON standard. It means there must be a lot of non Honda ATF that has similar coefficient of friction μ to the Honda ATF by chance but there are some ATF with very different character - we normally find it by damaging A/T

The trouble is we can't know what coefficient of friction μ they have. The additive, too has this trouble. When the additive can change the coefficient of friction μ, we don't know what degree it does - if the friction μ is too low then there might be another problem. Of course we can find out by trying it but when it doesn't work well and breaking the A/T, its gonna be very painful.

If you find good non-Honda ATF thats lucky and good for you.
But when I think about A/T rebuilding or replacement cost, I am not sure if it is worth saving some money by risking it.
Also, according to the same engineer, the Honda ATF has been updated when necessary while keeping the backward compatibility - means it also possess the majority of the characteristics contemporary ATF has such as detergents and good seal conditioners.

I am not those OEM believer, I am using Castrol oil for engine and some non-Honda parts if needed and is justifiable - the e/g oils are more straight forward as there are quite clear criteria defining the character of the oil, but there is no such a thing when it comes to coefficient of friction μ of ATF in Dexron.