Need suggestions on how to get a working e-brake on this setup

[FyreDaug]

firstly, see this thread so you understand why: http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52936 very important

Ok, so what is going to happen on this car is there will be 4 front hubs, 2 left, 2 right. I will be using front hubs on the back, and therefore front brakes on the back aswell. The problem with this is that during the safety inspection im sure they will notice if it has an ebrake or not, and for it to be considered road legal, im 99% sure it needs a functional non-hydrolic e-brake.

And before you say we should just use the rear hubs and use the factory e-brake stuff, no that wont work. The only way I can drive the rear wheels is with the front hubs on the back.

Im wondering if SEI rear brake stuff will work on the front hub as for e-brake hardware, but that shit is hard enough to get ahold of up here in canada.

It can be custom by all means too, it doesnt have to be factory anything.
I was thinking some sort of C clamp around the outsides of the pads, ,and when you pull the lever itll do the same sort of thing as the regular ebrake, using cables to pull 2 parts of the c clamp together.

Im bashing my head into walls trying to figure it out, and its not helping.... I cant even visualize what I need right now because all the hardware isnt infront of me (stripping the car tomorrow after I pick up an engine lift).

PLEASE help me with this!

[smufguy]

I like your idea about using the front knuckles so that you can have rear drive option. the problem lies in holding the rear knuckles in place under torque. So a radius rod is not gonna just hold it in place. a modified rear knuckle is what you need, if not u have to use a CRV rear knuckles retrofitted to work with the rear axles. You need to use some sort of trailing arm for the rear knuckle if you do not plan on using subframes to support the engine/ maintain proper suspension Geometry.

[FyreDaug]

You missed one thing, actually I didnt mention it. Since they are front hubs on the back, im going to take advantage of simple toe adjustments by welding a tie rod to the outside part of the frame and a regular tie rod end on that to go into the tie rod end hole in it. Its the same way its set up in the front, except the tie rods dont move. It would be simple to adjust toe though. Wanna go drifting? Give it a couple * toe out and have a groovey turn in. Aswell as using the radius rod on the front part of it aswell.

I dont see why it wont work, it works on the front end, and it has to turn the wheels that its powering.

Am I missing something? Or did I just not give enough info before?

But again, still on topic, how would I get an ebrake setup working if I used these front hubs?

Actual progress starts thursday (I hope) friend gets back in town. Ive got a garage to do it in now, ive got 90% of the tools (getting the rest soon) and I Just need the pipes next

[smufguy]

the only way i can think of using a rear ebrake setup using the front knuckles is actually grafting a rear caliper from a 1g legend or a similar car, the problem lies in two places, 1) Caliper bracket bolts spacing and 2) the rotor diameter.

1) The caliper bracket bolt spacing for the rear brake caliper is a lot smaller than the front, so what you have to do, logically, is to get a custom bracket made so that you can use the 'stock' rear calipers bolt on the hub. You can also use a hyrdaulic setup using a clutch slave cylinder coupled with the ebrake handle itself. This is the setup i am gonna be using on my next car since the rear brakes i am gonna be running are pretty big.

The only way the front knuckles can work in the rear if you took the front left knuckle and installed it in the Rear Right and vice versa for the other side. so that the radius rods face the rear and the tid rods tuck in. This limits the forward movement of the knuckle, but you also have to take care of the rear movement of the knuckles (towards the rear of the car). Look at the setup of an AWD car with a double wishbone setup, for example a corvette, as opposed to a STI with McPhearsons. It might help you sort a lot of suspension stuff out and as for the ebrakes, its what i said in the above.

2 )The rotor diameter determines how far the caliper needs to sit and since you will be swapping the sides the caliper will sit in the rear of the car at 3 O Clock. so the cable should be no problem with it comes to routing it.

[FyreDaug]

The only way the front knuckles can work in the rear if you took the front left knuckle and installed it in the Rear Right and vice versa for the other side. so that the radius rods face the rear and the tid rods tuck in. This limits the forward movement of the knuckle, but you also have to take care of the rear movement of the knuckles (towards the rear of the car). Look at the setup of an AWD car with a double wishbone setup, for example a corvette, as opposed to a STI with McPhearsons. It might help you sort a lot of suspension stuff out and as for the ebrakes, its what i said in the above.

Why? Maybe im missing a little logic here, but the suspension will be with regular upper and lower control arms aswell. So that should keep it vertical. Radius rod coming from behind the seats to the knuckles will keep it so it doesnt turn, and the tie rod aswell to make sure it doesnt turn.

Its basically the exact same as it would be if it were in the front, why would I want to use FL on RR? I could... and I could use the same radius rod/tie rod end way of holding it together and it would do the same thing

[smufguy]

even if you do use the FR knuckle on the RR, then you will have the problem of finding a place to bolt up the radius rod. The radius rod runs at an angle and connects to the front subframe normally since the rear of the car does not have a subframe, you will have the radius rod sticking inward of the car if the FR knuckle is bolted in the RR location, thats why you need to turn it around and go diagonally thus FR will be in RL and FL will be in RR.

If you are planning on using the rear seat area to bolt up the radius rods, then

1) you have to weld in a thicker piece of metal so that the thin stamped steel of the rear seat will not flex
2) find a way to relocate the gas tank from under the car since the radius rod will have to 'go thru' the tank to mount onto the rear seat.

also, if you looked under the rear shock tower, there is not enough room to bolt up a fromt upper control arm, so what you gotta do is, modify the rear Upper control arm and run a shorter one with an adjustable nut, to give you camber adjutability. next thing you will have to tackle is the space in the rear tubs, i doubt if the front knuckle archs will clear the tub sides under normal and full articulation (movements of the knuckle up and down i mean).

if you use the FR to RL and FL to RR method, all you would have to do is, bolt up the tie rods to a fabricated bracket near the lower control arm pivot points and another bracket in the rear of the car (behind the trunk area) to bolt up the radius rod.

its hard to visuvalize it, until you start taking things apart and matching it up to your rear suspension, you will not know the hurdles or required fab that needs to be done.

[FyreDaug]

DId you read through the other thread? This is on a tube frame, not the 3g. I can bolt the radius rod to wherever the frame is. Rod can be modified length too.

[smufguy]

DId you read through the other thread? This is on a tube frame, not the 3g. I can bolt the radius rod to wherever the frame is. Rod can be modified length too.

oh okay, yeah well the other thread got me all sleepy. :rant: hehehehehehe. It should be okay then . So how are you gonna build the chassie? U gonna keep the suspension points and then build the chassie around it, or u gonna start off with a basic box type chassie and mount the suspension up and go from there?

[FyreDaug]

suspension first, then steering, engine mount, and then main rails.... well not that simple, but kinda the order

[FyreDaug]

Well what I mean by that is that the suspension will be built level, on pretty much a square tube. Mounting the UCA to that, and then working the length of the lower one to mount up to have 0 camber at the "highest" setting, then for each step you lower it (2) the camber will increase as normal suspension travel would make it, except still with full suspension travel... And each step would only be an inch. Then once the suspension is built we will set up the steering the proper distance apart, and build the front of it that way. Same for the rear, we'll line up how much space we have with the stock axles and build a motor frame there. Once those 2 are together we'll organize "cabin" space, fuel cell, wiring etc. Then mounting of rad in front (maybe using stock accord, but im the one who thinks its gonna be unneccarily big and a smaller one from a civic will be more than sufficient (longer rad hoses going from front to back will add up to the less cooling capacity)

As for flow, yes it will be less than what it would be on the accord, and yes I know there may be a concern with lots of heat going through those tubes being pumped and not actually getting to the rad right away, but its a calculated risk at this time, we'll do what we can to make sure theres sufficient air flow over the hoses, but in idling conditions I think it would be safe to have the rad fan on all the time under 10kmh... Other than that... yeah calculated risk.

The only calculated risk I know about, atleast it isnt dangerous, and if it blows up somehow, the worst that could happen would be some burnage, but that will try to be prevented aswell... atleast the motor can be shut off without damage.

Another thing im worried about is power steering, I have 2 pumps and 2 ps racks, so unless its a drained harder-than-armstrong steering its gonna be power steering. But what im worried about is ALL that length going to the front cant be very good for flow, I mean that pump is only so big... I could overdrive it a bit to make sure ive got some idle flow, but I may have plans to build the motor for revving and nitrous if anything. I dont wanna talk about aftermarket custom shit anyways, main concern is building it.

We pulled one motor today, the harder one, still had full exhaust (rusted to hell), AC/PS/vac lines etc and it took much longer than we thought. The next one is just drop the axles, pull the mounts and lift it out, everything else is good.

Just curious though, wouldnt it be a bad idea to begin with to spin those knuckles backwards? Without replacing the wheel bearings anyways, I heard somethings that the bearings "break in" going a certain direction and if you go the other way alot (like reversing) its lots more wear and tear... true or old wives tale?

After we organize space inside (which will be limited to how far the steering wheel comes in... same way as the accord does) we'll build the main rails to support it and start reinforcing things and building the roll cage/bar... Not so much a cage, more like an inbetween. No doors either, all full skeletal structure similar to atom

[FyreDaug]

e-brake ideas :(

[smufguy]

e-brake ideas :(

as i mentioned in the prior post, there is no way you can include a cable ebrake while using the calipers. either you use a retrofitted rear stock caliper with the cable, or use hydro unit via a modified clutch slave cylinder mated to the stock front calipers on the hub. thats the only two options you have.

[FyreDaug]

Ill think of something, going to the yard tomorrow morning. We'll see what happens, if I think of anything usefull I post back in here

[FyreDaug]

Well we didnt get that far, we got the power rack and upper and lower arms out (along with the knuckles) going again tomorrow morning to hopefully start picking apart the other car.

[smufguy]

since ur engine is the rear, why worry about power steering? u got no weight in the front.

[FyreDaug]

yeah thats another thing I thought of too, its gonan be crazy light in the front... How does a drained PS rack compare to a typical strong arm?

edit: for steering effort

[smufguy]

yeah thats another thing I thought of too, its gonan be crazy light in the front... How does a drained PS rack compare to a typical strong arm?
edit: for steering effort

with no load in the front on a tube chassie, should feel feather light.

[FyreDaug]

too light at high speeds? (it would be with either scenerio if yes)

and if so (because I didnt have this in mind at the time) should any precautionary measure be taken?

[smufguy]

too light at high speeds? (it would be with either scenerio if yes)
and if so (because I didnt have this in mind at the time) should any precautionary measure be taken?

when you build a chassie you incorporate the weight of the motor and the weight of the suspension component, in regards to the kit cars and stuff. Thus you derive the weight distribution for the front and the rear. when the body is put on and tested, you also will have to take into account the downforce that the body yields at given speeds to give the load in the front with no mass transfer or shifts (no turns or gear changes), thats how you will find out if its too light or way too heavy for the front. Ill try to take some pics for you tonight, maybe that will help you see more clearly what i am talking about.

[EX-ileAccord]

you can try to use the rear disk setup off an older integra, and just use the ebrake setup on that. If your going to fab up the intire buggie it shouldent be hard to use the teg assambly.

[thegreatdane]

Forget about cable ebrake then. Mount a hydraulic ebrake instead. I'm sure you can buy some sort of universal master cylinder with only 1 hydraulic circuit, if not you might be able to use one from a bike for the rear disk foot brake but not sure if that will deliver enough pressure.

[smufguy]

You guys, read his earlier thread and his constraints and then respond.

[FyreDaug]

you can try to use the rear disk setup off an older integra, and just use the ebrake setup on that. If your going to fab up the intire buggie it shouldent be hard to use the teg assambly.

Would that work? Can I use the calipers off of the integra? Do they bolt to the accord front hub? Seems like a long shot

edit: Because I need to buy 2 calipers/discs anyways, and I was thinking of putting the ones I have that I pulled off the car on the back and putting some higher quality brembos up front with good pads to keep the proportion more equal.

Ill look into the teg setup, but I wouldnt probably need a teg hub no?

[smufguy]

he is talking about the teg rear end disk conversion. I guess he does not know that you are trying to have the engine in the rear and drive the rear wheels.

[thegreatdane]

You guys, read his earlier thread and his constraints and then respond.

But I'm lazy and I dont remember it if I've already read it

[FyreDaug]

But I'm lazy and I dont remember it if I've already read it

then only post if you know, this is kind of a concern for me right now.

What about rear calipers off of another car? Does anything bolt up? Its impossible to find SEI's around here, checked all the yards :(

[thegreatdane]

ok so I read through your other thread (AGAIN i now remember) and I still cant find anything about hydraulic ebrake not being an option.

Do you have some kind of regulations where you live saying that the ebrake must be mechanical or what's the problem?

Some FWD cars have mechanical ebrake on the front calibers btw.

['89AccordLX(Rus)]

Here's something I came across recently: http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/reviews/parking_brake/

It mounts on the driveshaft, but a similar idea could be applied to your's too with a mechanical setup. I doubt you'd be able to use an aftermarket kit though. Hope this helps.

[FyreDaug]

It doesnt really matter HOW I do it, just need a functional ebrake. And with this slave hydraulic system, im not understanding how you are suggesting to do it. The calipers have 1 line going into it, 1 bolt around that round brake line thing. If there is another hydraulic system added, how would the pressure be regulated so the slave and the master hydraulic system do not go together. What if the hydraulics fail, how do I stop? This is really my only concern at the moment. "Emergency" brake

[FyreDaug]

hmm, im not sure how that other system would work on the kart, and I would reather prefer 2 completely independant braking systems, so if the hydraulics DO go out I can still stop without dying. I dont have calipers infront of me, but is there a visible part of the pad on either side? If there were, could I use a "C" clamp kinda thing that would be touching either outside end of the pad, and when you pull a cable itll squeeze the C together?

EDIT: What about if I modified the calipers so you could see part of the pad if there isnt a visible part? 1/2" hole would be good through the caliper, then put the C-clamp like thing on there.

[thegreatdane]

so you want an actual emergency brake, i figured you just wanted a plain parking brake.
Well, you already have an emergency brake, that's the reason why there's 2 hydraulic circuits in the master cylinder. If 1 circuit goes out you will still have the other circuit working. And you then normally connect the wheels diagonally in a pair with the two circuits, to get the most safe braking when using only 1 circuit.

With the hydraulic brake you just T into the factory brake lines with T adapters.

[FyreDaug]

T into the lines yeah, but that will also put pressure to the front, and if I put them on both rear brakes, wouldnt that essentially allow the 2 main circuits to be all one (including this one)

[EX-ileAccord]

i know about the rear drive, just use the calipers from the teg on the front accord hub. If it doesent bolt up make an adapter plate. i have the rear end of a 92 teg and 2 accord front ends i will take a look when i get home and see how hard it would be to set up. If it looks the same as what i think it shouldent be to much of a problem. the other thing you could do is put a disk on one of the axles like the old trucks had, use a caliper off an old honda odyssey dune buggy and just get a cable made at a hardware store

[thegreatdane]

T into the lines yeah, but that will also put pressure to the front, and if I put them on both rear brakes, wouldnt that essentially allow the 2 main circuits to be all one (including this one)

I never looked any deeper into the excact way of setting this up but I know that a lot of the rallye/autox drivers around here uses that kind of setup. I'm sure you can find a lot of info/guides about it if you search the web. So yea, search

[FyreDaug]

I have been, coming here was kinda a last hope (no offence to anyone though, ive got some new info thats for sure) and I havent come up with stuff, not many people play around with older accords so this site is pretty much where its found at. Im gonna see what I can do, also let me know how that 92 teg stuff matches up

[Ichiban]

i have seen twin piston fixed caliper units on display at lordco with a built in cam and linkage for a mechanical park brake. If you make your own mounting bracket (a flat piece of plate with a few holes in the right places) you can use these on the rear. In BC, Line-Loc systems are not a legal parking brake, I imagine it's the same in Alberta. As well, single circuit hydraulic brake systems have been illegal since the '60's. You want to keep the dual circuits seperate.

[EX-ileAccord]

I had a look at the parts last night and i think its going to work. I'm going to try to put it together tonight to see what happens. the only thing that might be a proplem are the disks. I'll let you know how it goes.

[FyreDaug]

I had a look at the parts last night and i think its going to work. I'm going to try to put it together tonight to see what happens. the only thing that might be a proplem are the disks. I'll let you know how it goes.

yeah please keep my posted as soon as you can

(saskatoon is in saskatchewan btw)

[EX-ileAccord]

it will deff work with the teg set up. you will have to rig up a few things tho. Give me a couple of days to get some pics up and I'll show you what i did.