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View Full Version : ET2 head on ES2 block? Smoking problem...



MustardCat
08-09-2006, 06:46 PM
I just got an 84 4 door for free last week. 200k original and runs real good, in pretty good shape overall in fact. (Except for some rust.. :-( )
Only problem is randomly when I start it up it starts blowing out a ton of smoke, clears up after a few blocks. Did a compression check and all the cyls are good, did a tune up, etc.

Narrowed it down to cyl #2 (Plug gets oil fouled, the other plugs are good.) It smokes soooo much, sooo long I can't beleive it's valve seals. Currently I'm thinking it's the #2 CVCC valve...

So, back to the thread title: I have a spare ET2 head (off a carb. 2G lude. ,non CVCC) that I reconditioned a few years back but never used. Will this head bolt onto the ES2 block, and will the ES2 manifolds bolt onto the head?

Ichiban
08-17-2006, 09:24 PM
You might have to run the gay twin carbs with the ET2 head. The exhaust manifold might work, however the ET2 had the "hi-po" dual outlet manifold that went to the twin downpipes, but the flanges might be the same. I've never actually seen a Cvcc engine up here in Canada, so I don't know how different they actually are. We got stuck with non-Cvcc EL 1602's and A16's until 86. Oddly enough there's a car in the wreckers here that's a bone stock 84 or 85 accord sedan with an auto and an A20A1 in it. Seriously. Nothing special, just factory looking stock A20. I thought it was weird.

Anyway, more towards your question, I'd pull the busted head and see what works. It might not even be the problem, who knows? And once the head's off, you'll know for sure what parts you can use and what you need to get. I have a complete running ET2 with carbs in my parents yard. If you want it come get it, it's yours. While you're at it take the 22R-E with the big hole in the side of the block.

PhydeauX
08-20-2006, 07:17 AM
Working from memory here, so I could be wrong, but here goes. The head should bolt on to the block no problems, cross ref the head gaskets to be sure. The exhaust should bolt on as well, ET, ES, BT, BS, A20, A18, they all use the same exhaust flange. IIRC the ET didn't have cvcc, been a long time since I looked at one of those heads though. The manifold flange is comletely diferent. With out having to accomodate the cvcc system the head has a much better port design. You're going to have to either get the prelude twin carb setup or something aftermarket, but either way you'll gain some power over what was in there.

andy

MustardCat
09-14-2006, 08:12 PM
You guys are right. Everything is the same except the head casting and intake manifold.

I just redid the es2 head. Cleaned, surfaced, valves reground, new valve seals, new hardware on the CVCC valves, etc. like new.

Only one problem. STILL SMOKES LIKE CRAZY AT START UP! argh....

Heres what happens:
1. Drive the car around, no smoke, runs and drives awesome.
2. Park car overnight.
3. At some point while it's off oil is leaking into cylinders #2 and #3. (More in #2)
4. Start car in morning, starts to smoke like nothing else(Serious, it's like setting off a smoke bomb), soon after plugs #2 and #3 get oil fouled and it starts to miss.
5. After a few minutes of driving smoke goes away. (Have to clean plugs to fix miss.)

Somehow oil is geting into those cylinders and it accumulates while the car is off. The ONLY things I can think of currently are:

1. That oil is somehow getting around the o-rings and compression washers of the CVCC valves and getting into those cyl's.

2. Oil is leaking out of the heads oil feed (Between cyl 2 & 3), getting past the head gasket and into the cylinders.


ANY ideas on this guys? I like the car alot, I just need to fix this one problem....

Ichiban
09-18-2006, 05:13 PM
something stupid like PVC breather hose dumping oil in while it sits?

twizted_ninja
10-01-2006, 03:48 PM
hey yall i got a 85 accord with the es2 motor nad im tryin to do the pelude head swap also but mine is carbed and all the head gasket #'s say it wont work but thats from autozone. if yall can help me that would be kool
thanks

rustedout
10-02-2006, 07:51 PM
my '85 LX smokes like a mother, actually.. like a mother who smokes a lot.. like a little 1.8-liter chimney.. and sometimes it stops smoking, just to piss me off with inconsistency. Did you figure out what the problem was, or is it still there?

Vector
11-03-2006, 10:44 AM
correct me if i'm wrong, but that sounds like valve stem seals. oil can leak through those if the car sits. even more so if your guides are worn.






edit: shit. this threads kinda old.

MustardCat
03-23-2007, 07:17 PM
This car is sitting at my parents house, never did figure it out.

I rebuilt the head, new seals for the valves and CVCC valves too. New head gasket of course, etc. etc.

I'm starting to wonder if there is a crack in the head that me and the machine shop missed that oil is leaking into cyls 2&3? (You would think that would affect compression #s.) It's not coming from anywhere on the IM or PCV system, I checked all that throughly for oil before I rebuilt the head.

I may just buy an ES2 from the junkyard and swap that in next time I visit my parents. I love how this car drives and it's time to retire my beat ass 3gee.

2ndGenGuy
03-23-2007, 07:26 PM
Just swap the A20 from the beat ass 3gee. :D

carotman
03-23-2007, 07:53 PM
If it's an 84, it will be easy to swap in an A20A. They are cheap too. I would go that route.

2ndGenGuy
03-23-2007, 08:05 PM
One thing just came to mind... Is the ET even a CVCC engine?

I thought the ET2 was the same as the A18...

If it's from a Prelude and CVCC, it might be an ES1.

If you got the ET2 valve seals, they might be the wrong seals! Which is why it's so leaky!!!

Oh man I'm a dumbass... Read the title and thought you were having problems after the swap... DURR.

Ichiban
03-23-2007, 08:49 PM
The only thing I can recommend at this point is to do a leakdown test on #2 and 3 with the valve cover off. Look for bubbles. Or shut off the engine, pull the manifolds off and check for oil pooling on top of the valves the next day. I'm also with the guys when they say to swap in the A20, solves the whole problem, and way more power.

MessyHonda
03-23-2007, 10:36 PM
hey its mustardcat


:welcome:

MustardCat
03-24-2007, 06:33 AM
Hello messy. :-)

So the A20 goes in easy? I already knew it would basicly bolt in but I wasnt sure about wiring and axles. Anymore info on this? This would be a much cheaper option for me since I already have the donor car.

Thanks guys.

MustardCat
03-25-2007, 01:39 PM
You guys are mean, teasing me with this FI A20 swap stuff and then not responding. ;-)

Anyways I've been thinking about it and one problem I see is the fuel system. I was thinking I could buy a walbro 190 lph inline pump and run new lines to supply fuel, and run a new return line right into the tank. Probably would just get rid of the stock a20 fuel filter and run an aftermarket one in it's place too.

You guys think that would work? The FI 84-85 accords use an external fuel pump right?

Im not sure about the harness though, I would swap in the whole a20 harness to the ECU, so the motor would run, but is the interior harness going to be compatable at all?

I work on a rotating schedule and every 3rd week I get 5 days off in a row. So I would have about 4 1/2 days to get this done. I could do the fuel system setup on one visit, then next time actually put the a20 in...

Anyways if I do this it will be fully documented and I will make a write-up for it.

carotman
03-25-2007, 04:14 PM
You could just put a carb A20 in there too and forget about the EFI conversion.

If you want to go with EFI, the 2nd gen Accord SE-i used an external pump like you said. I'm not sure but all you would need to do is change the fuel strainer on the tank and run an external pump.

Then, if you take the wiring from the ECU to the engine, it should be relatively easy. The only thing the ECU controls outside of the engine itself is the Main Relay for the fuel pump.

What year is the donor car?

MustardCat
03-25-2007, 08:04 PM
Donor would be an 88 LX-I. I have a dual carb and manifold off of an A18 85 prelude dx I could use as a backup, but I would really perfer fuel injection.


Heres what I figure I currently need to get or do for the swap:

Fuel system:
Fuel strainer from 84-85 SEI
New fuel pump made for fuel injected cars (Prolly just an inline walbro.)
Run new fuel feed line
Run new fuel return line and route it into the tank
Maybe new fuel filter setup, if it's going to be too much work to tie into the line going into the 88 fuel filter

Wiring:
88 harness to the ECU
Misc. interior wiring to the main relay
New wiring from the relay to the pump
Maybe some harness splicing for the front signal and lights


I should just be able to use the 85 trans with the A20 motor and not have to worry about axle ends matching etc. Does anyone know if all the A/E series trans use the same input shaft diameter and spline count? Or do I need to buy a clutch to match the ES trans and use the ES flywheel?

MessyHonda
03-25-2007, 08:11 PM
dude sounds sweet. my friend had a 85 se-i and the fuel injection in it looked like a carb....wires and hoses going everywear...the 88lx-i fuel injection is much cleaner. if you need any help even some one just to keep you company hit me up. since you are also in the bay area right? i would not mind stoping by to check it out in person

88Accord-DX
03-25-2007, 08:57 PM
Since you had all that work done to the head. Have it pressure tested, that'll let you know if there are any cracks in it. Can't beleive they didn't do that when it was rebuilt. Pressure testing is pretty reasonable, around $25-$35. All they do is plug everything, pressurize it with air under water.

MustardCat
03-25-2007, 09:35 PM
dude sounds sweet. my friend had a 85 se-i and the fuel injection in it looked like a carb....wires and hoses going everywear...the 88lx-i fuel injection is much cleaner. if you need any help even some one just to keep you company hit me up. since you are also in the bay area right? i would not mind stoping by to check it out in person

Well I live in Redwood city, but my 2g is in Washington state and thats where I would be doing the work. :omg: There regular 3geez meets down here? I had to leave my prelude at my parents and have been driving my beater 3gee (motor good, eveything else: bad!) for the last year and am having withdrawls, I havent been to any kind of car "meet" in years. :sad2:


ddude2uc: I think I'm set on this A20 swap, but I will definitely open up the ES2 and figure out exactly WTF is going on with it. For future reference if nothing else.

2ndGenGuy
03-25-2007, 09:37 PM
PhydeauX was using a 2g Prelude dual carb tranny in his car, with the cars original driveshafts. The ES2 and the Prelude tranny's had the same flywheel, etc, so you should be okay with the ES2 tranny on the A20 motor. You just have to use the ES2 flywheel / clutch.

2ndGenGuy
03-25-2007, 09:38 PM
Well I live in Redwood city, but my 2g is in Washington state and thats where I would be doing the work. :omg: There regular 3geez meets down here? I had to leave my prelude at my parents and have been driving my beater 3gee (motor good, eveything else: bad!) for the last year and am having withdrawls, I havent been to any kind of car "meet" in years. :sad2:
ddude2uc: I think I'm set on this A20 swap, but I will definitely open up the ES2 and figure out exactly WTF is going on with it. For future reference if nothing else.

Where in Washington are you going to be doing the work? If you're not too far away, I'd love to help out with it... If you are looking for help. :D

carotman
03-25-2007, 09:50 PM
Yup, you can use the same tranny.

You got the swap pretty much figured. You don't need to route a fuel return line tough. Use the carb feed line as the return line, that's what Honda did anyway.

I would just get the engine witing from the 88 and add it to your 84 Accord. don't swap harnesses, it's going to be a pain (of mix/match the harnesses together).

You'll need the vacuum control box too. and the wires going to it. It's not a bad thing by itself.

MustardCat
03-25-2007, 10:29 PM
Where in Washington are you going to be doing the work? If you're not too far away, I'd love to help out with it... If you are looking for help. :D

Far away. :-) North of Marysville, in a little town called Mount Vernon. Right now I have a 2g lude carb tranny mated to my a20, but I had to install the accord drive pinion gears into the diff. so the LXi axles would fit into it. If I have extra time I may put the old gears in and use this trans for the shorter gearing.

You auto-x right? How do you feel about the stock gearing? The few times I drove the 2gee it seemed like the gearing was noticeably taller then the 2g lude trans. (and waaay taller then then my 3G lude.)

carotman: Thats an excellent idea for the return line, didn't even occur to me. :thumbup:

2ndGenGuy
03-25-2007, 11:39 PM
Far away. :-) North of Marysville, in a little town called Mount Vernon. Right now I have a 2g lude carb tranny mated to my a20, but I had to install the accord drive pinion gears into the diff. so the LXi axles would fit into it. If I have extra time I may put the old gears in and use this trans for the shorter gearing.
You auto-x right? How do you feel about the stock gearing? The few times I drove the 2gee it seemed like the gearing was noticeably taller then the 2g lude trans. (and waaay taller then then my 3G lude.)
carotman: Thats an excellent idea for the return line, didn't even occur to me. :thumbup:

I think the gearing is fine if you're looking for economy. But they're entirely too tall for me. I've got a 2g carb'd lude tranny myself. It's sitting in the garage right now waiting until next week. Ordering a 12lb aluminum flywheel and like just slightly better than OEM clutch. I think this will be a much better combination for the track.

I don't like the way the stock gearing keeps the RPMs below 3000 most of the time. I find myself dropping to 3rd on the freeway jsut to get power, then when I hit redline, 4th is just way too tall. It turns out that 4th gear is an overdrive gear itself, and 5th is just BARELY taller. Kind of a waste really.

I was thinking though that the tranny might be fine on a more powerful engine like the A20. But it's a sucky performer on the ES2.

BTW, Mount Vernon is definitely not too far of a drive for me. I'd be cool with coming up for a day and getting some serious work done. Just gimme a hollar if you need help. Or at least if you get the A20 swap done, let me go for a ride with you so I can see how it is!

Ichiban
03-26-2007, 04:32 PM
Excellent! Another 2G A20 swap!

I would use the 2g lude tranny and the small spline diff, just for simplicity's sake. I did detail a setup on using the big spline shafts, it's in the 2G FAQ.

As for the fuel system, I'm planning on running a pressure line, and the pump/fittings for the 85 Se-i, possibly a Carter EFI generic pump if it's any cheaper. Did the 2G FI Preludes not use an external fuel pump as well? Somebody said they did. I would presume it to be the same pump as the 85 Accord Se-i.

I plan on using the 86 Accord engine harness to run the engine alone, and trimming off all of the excess. You have to be careful, as there are sensors all over the car like the cabin air pressure sensor that have to be in place for the EFI to function properly. Also, the VSS will have to be added to the speedo cable somehow. You will need a good wiring diagram. Since you already have the donor car it will be easier as everything is right there. Don't forget to use the EFI alternator (4 prong) as well.

Unfortunately you won't be able to use the ET-2 twin carb setup on the A20A3 head, the ports are totally different. You will have to swap on the ET-2 head, which by all accounts is totally possible as the ET-ES-BT-BS-A-series all share the same head gasket (as far as I can tell). There might be some oil jet modification required, but I'm not sure of this.

Good luck and stay in touch, us few at 2geez love to see these projects come together, and are happy to help however possible.

2ndGenGuy
03-26-2007, 05:35 PM
Don't the cars with cruise control have a VSS in them? I'm pretty sure my LX has a VSS in the speedo, at least I've read mentions of it in the FSM. Maybe you could swap in an LX gauge cluster for simplicity.

MustardCat
03-28-2007, 02:55 AM
Thanks for the info guys. Another Q: Do all A/E/BT series trans use the same input shaft spline count and diameter? I'm going to order everything I need to re-seal the a20 and also a new clutch kit and do those while the motor is out.

2ndGenGuy: Got a link to that 12 lbs. fly?

Ichiban
03-28-2007, 04:47 PM
I'm not sure about the spline count and diameter, but you'll have to use the Prelude clutch with the Prelude tranny. The 1.8 and 1.6 litre engines got the 200mm clutch, and the 2.0's 212mm clutch and flywheel won't clear the inside of the bellhousing. Far as I know, the prelude flywheel should bolt to the A20 crank no problem, but I've heard of both 12mm and 14mm flywheel bolts for the A20. Ddude2uc know's more about this, maybe try PMing him.


Edit: According to Clutchnet.com http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=1417&cat=0&page=2
the splines are the same between the 2.0 and the 1.8 at 7/8 inches major dia and 21 splines. Only the disc diameters are different.

2ndGenGuy
03-28-2007, 04:59 PM
2ndGenGuy: Got a link to that 12 lbs. fly?

^^^ Clutchnet... rjudgey recommends thier stuff highly.

http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=21743&cat=0&page=1

And for $275, not a bad price at all!

MustardCat
04-21-2007, 07:43 PM
Just an update, this swap is going down on the 27th. I will take plenty of pics and do a write-up if I manage to finish it!

Honda genuine parts, going to re-seal the A20 as it is starting to leak from every seal:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/1.jpg

Walbro 190lph high pressure fuel pump to feed the new F-I system:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2.jpg



Here are some old pics of the car I just found on my digicam.

When I rebuilt the head thinking it would solve my insane smoking issue:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/4.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/5.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/6.jpg

Man it was so clean I wish I could have ran it more:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/7.jpg

Exterior. Typical of a car made in 85 with 200k. Oxidation, some body damage, some rust, etc. Still 10x better then my 3gee though. :-)
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/8.jpg

Interior. Some fading and wear, but it's still pretty good, clean and not all torn up:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/11.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/10.jpg

2ndGenGuy
04-21-2007, 07:56 PM
Man that is sweet! That engine looks clean man! Too bad you gotta swap it all out. Well at least it will still look good. So you're swapping a non-cvcc head onto the ES2 block? What's this discussion of re-sealing the A20? Is that another project? I dig that red valve cover too!


Still 10x better then my 3gee though. :-)

:D :D :D

MustardCat
04-21-2007, 08:16 PM
I'm replacing the ES2 in this car with the A20 from my 3G, and converting the car to fuel-injection.

2ndGenGuy
04-22-2007, 12:51 AM
I'm replacing the ES2 in this car with the A20 from my 3G, and converting the car to fuel-injection.

Oh man I was way off. Sweet! Good luck with the project! BTW, are you keeping the ES2 tranny then, or doing the axle / hub swap with the A20 tranny? Or am I an idiot, and you already posted this?

MustardCat
04-22-2007, 06:50 PM
Keeping the ES2 trans for now. I want to rebuild my 2g lude trans then put that one in later.

MustardCat
05-02-2007, 05:59 PM
Well I partially won the battle. Mechanicly the swap is done, but I ran out of time to finish the wiring so it will probably be another month or two before the car is actually running and driving.

Anyways pics:

Both cars, ready to rock:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/1.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/2.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/3.jpg

A20 out:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/4.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/5.jpg

Pulling the 84 base interior to remove the harness:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/6.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/7.jpg

A20 installed in the 84:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/8.jpg

Was not comfortable with how little space there was between the upper alternator bracket and master cyl. so I cut and shaved the bracket a bit:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/9.jpg

Custom mounted a20 fuel filter setup on the firewall, the feed line bracket is bolted onto the back of the intake manifold. You can just see the new brass barb lock-on fitting screwed into the feed line.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/10.jpg

MustardCat
05-02-2007, 06:13 PM
Vaccume box, fits ok in the es2 location. You can also see how the A20 igniton coil is mounted. This will all work as-is but if I have more time next time I work on it I may just fabricate proper brackets:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/11.jpg

84 carb fuel strainer vs. 84 F-I strainer. They will NOT swap, you would need at least the fuel level sender/feed pipe from the 84 F-I. I'm just going to stick with the carb. strainer because I see no reason it would need to be swapped....
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/12.jpg

New pump feed line and return line, this is low pressure fuel hose:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/13.jpg

Zip tied to the chassis, tossed the old carb. filter setup:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/14.jpg

Fuel pump, ghetto zip tied up there. This is temporary, once I run the car and am sure there are no leaks I will make a proper bracket for it:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/15.jpg

The part that strikes fear in most people, WIRING! I'm going to reuse the 84 harness to control everything on the car but the motor. I'm taking the 88LXi harness the cutting out all the wiring that doesnt control the engine. So there will be 2 seperate harnesses in the car the 84 chassis harness and the A20 F-I harness. Only a few wires will have to "cross over" stuff like the oil pres. and water temp, and power wires:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/16.jpg

MessyHonda
05-02-2007, 06:59 PM
looks nice...keep up the good work

2ndGenGuy
05-02-2007, 10:16 PM
Great work. That little car will move out and be a 3gee spanking machine. Since the base model weighs 2187lbs and is now going to have ~120hp, it's going to freakin' move! It's gonna be sweet! Keep us posted, and get us some good numbers when you're done. :) (1/4 mile, 0-60) :D :D

offthahook
05-02-2007, 10:27 PM
That is absolutely filthy nice. Reminds me of some of the parts I've gotten after 2ndgenguy worked over a 2G hatch. All very familiar, but you are going to another level with that swap! Damn, I thought adding factory cruise was a wiring nightmare. Keep us posted man. That is some fine work so far.

thegreatdane
05-05-2007, 06:34 AM
Thumbs up for getting all that work done! That's quite a handfull

Ichiban
05-05-2007, 06:34 PM
Excellent! You beat me to it!

What did you use for the pressure/return lines? I was considering plumbing in an additional hard line for pressure, and using the factory supply as return. I'm not sure if you answered this already.

What are your plans for a working VSS?

Did you need to pull the side bracket off of the ES2 and replace the one on the A20? Its the one with the 2 bolts that goes under the timing belt cover.

I'm doing the same kind of thing with the wiring harnesses as well. I planned on keeping absolutely everything not engine related on the original harness, and paring down the 3g harness to just run the engine. I planned on using the choke light on my cluster as a "check engine light", and just wiring it directly to the ECU.

MustardCat
05-06-2007, 12:27 PM
For pressure I reused the stock hard line, I got some 100psi fuel injection hose and am using that to connect the pump to the hard line and the hardline to the a20 fuel filter feed line. I used double clamps to secure the hose to the hard line and once I get it running I will be able to tell you if it actually doesnt leak. ;-)

For the return I'm just going to run a low pressure fuel hose from the front to back. It's hooked up to the tank I just need to decide if I want to run it through the interior, or underbody.

I'm using the es2 transmission and have the speed sensor cable hooked in just like stock so I shouldnt have any problems with the speedo, unless I'm missing something?

I basicly took all the brackets off the es2 and put them on the a20, I didnt test if I could reuse some of the a20 ones.

Since I'm stuck in cali for a few weeks before I can go back I'm having my dad send me the wiring harness so I can build it here using wiring diagrams and basicly have it ready to drop in next time I visit.

When you go to pull the 3g harness out, take a sawzall and enlarge those chassis holes it runs through. Specificaly the one at the passenger foot well and the one near the fusebox in the bay, it is seriously a pain in the ass to get it out otherwise.

Ichiban
05-07-2007, 08:27 PM
The ECU requires a functioning VSS or it will set a trouble code.

The wrecker provided me with the entire harness (sans vacuum hose hellbox and all of the sensors) and computer, so I don't have to worry about cutting firewalls to get it out.

The bracket I am referring to attaches to the front end of the engine by 2 bolts. It is accessed by removing the timing covers.

2ndGenGuy
05-07-2007, 09:10 PM
If you want a VSS, just go snag an LX gauge cluster. It will have the light for the cruise control on it. The VSS is built into the Speedo on the 84-85 cars. I believe you can get your signal from there.

MustardCat
06-14-2007, 09:26 PM
Well here is another update.

I would have had this car finished this last weekend, except for the timing belt on my prelude snapping in middle-of-nowhere Oregon. I had it towed 120 miles away to my cousins shop and spent all friday fixing it, lucked out with no bent valves, threw a new head gasket and belt on and was off again.....

Then going through the same mountains I rounded a corner and came to this:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w7.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w2.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w3.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w4.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w5.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w6.jpg
Action shot with the lude:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w1.jpg

Whats scarier then a woman driver? A woman driving a semi truck I tell you! She managed to side swipe another truck going too fast through a corner then came to a stop like this. The only thing holding the cab in that position is one of those wood pillars for the road railing.

I was first on the scene, went up to the cab. First thing I notice is she in ok, in fact she is putting on shoes and more clothes. Next thing I noticed is she did not turn off the motor! Diesel is pouring all over the road.. "This can't end well" I thought. "Turn off the motor!" ... nothing, she cant hear me over the noise of the motor! Now another guy has stopped and come up to the cab and me and him keep yelling at her to turn off the motor. FINALLY she gets the message and turns the damn thing off.

At this point I go around the truck and just kinda check out the situation, shes trapped in the cab for now and the other guy is talking to her. Just then a cop rolls up, my job here is done. I run to my car grab the cam snap some pics, and then get the hell out of there before I am delayed further!




Well finally after hours more on the road I make it to my parents in Washington, at this point I've pretty much lost a days work....

MustardCat
06-14-2007, 09:26 PM
Now for the actual work I did on the accord.

Having already stripped lots out of the harness here is where I started:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/14.jpg

Here are the 3 ECU plugs. Basicly all I did was bust out the 88 fuel-injection wiring diagram and trace each wire out of the plugs and made sure it "went" somewhere and I hadnt accidentally cut it.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/10.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/11.jpg

Most of the narness is self-contained, About 5 - 6 wires needed to be spliced into the 84's system in some way. 3-4 that need to be fused and hooked up to power for the main relay and ECU power, then the speed sensor wire, and the fuel pump power wire out of the main relay. Then there are a few things to do with the harness in the engine bay, but those are simple.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/12.jpg

Left-overs:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/13.jpg

MustardCat
06-14-2007, 09:27 PM
So how far DID I get? Damn close, the car runs, drives, and is put back in one piece. I have a few misc. things to finish like a proper fuel pump mount, etc. It sucks cause it's about 1 days work, I would be done if not for those issues when I drove up! :violin:

More pics:

She wants to be unleashed:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/1.jpg

Everything works:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/2.jpg

Fuel return hose routing, may change this later:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/3.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/4.jpg

Interior shot. On the dash there is a digital clock I snagged off a junked 84 at my dealership, still need to install that. I've also got to put in the radio from my 3gee:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/5.jpg

So what did I do about the speed sensor input for the ECU? Well I just tapped into the VSS that my carb. car has. Yeah the carb. cars have 'em too, the only ones that may not have it would be ones that did not come with cruise control...
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/6.jpg
Bam, done:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/7.jpg

Mounted ECU, you cant even tell it's there once eveything is installed.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/8.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/9.jpg

MessyHonda
06-14-2007, 10:35 PM
nice work man....true inspiration.

thegreatdane
06-15-2007, 03:06 AM
You sorted that wiring out good! Very nice job. It's obviuos you're no rookie at this. So no CEL's?

2ndGenGuy
06-15-2007, 08:08 AM
Badass! What's better than a 3gee? A 2gee with an A20... :)

I bet she really flys too. That's like a 30hp bump right there.

offthahook
06-15-2007, 08:54 AM
The sweetness! Glad you checked on the driver before you snapped those semi wreck pics! I'm guessing no AC on the swap? In this case, that's good. And I can tell you the ONLY freaking 84-85 Accord that does not have factory cruise is the 3 door "S" Accord. Trust me, ALL the other trims got the cruise standard. I like how you did all that work to go from a carb. setup to an EFI A20 from the next generation Accord and said "Yeah, gotta get the clock and radio installed." I'm guessing that'll go pretty easy. Just a guess though. Classic.

2ndGenGuy
06-15-2007, 10:27 AM
The sweetness! Glad you checked on the driver before you snapped those semi wreck pics! I'm guessing no AC on the swap? In this case, that's good. And I can tell you the ONLY freaking 84-85 Accord that does not have factory cruise is the 3 door "S" Accord. Trust me, ALL the other trims got the cruise standard. I like how you did all that work to go from a carb. setup to an EFI A20 from the next generation Accord and said "Yeah, gotta get the clock and radio installed." I'm guessing that'll go pretty easy. Just a guess though. Classic.

LOL Hilarious! I didn't make the connection between all the work necessary for the swap, then leaving the clock... :-P Yeah, that should be an easy one. Good stuff!

If you wanted to keep the A/C though, you should be able to bolt that ES2 A/C compressor up to the A20, but then you have the issue with the pulleys, and you'd have to use the ES2 pulley on the A20. Then you'd have to use the ES2 alternator, and that might not be happy with the fuel injection... I guess the A20 A/C compressor could connect to the 2g A/C lines?

Ichiban
06-15-2007, 09:24 PM
Excellent. Most excellent. I've been dreading the wiring portion of this for a while.

I'm not especially impressed that you drilled holes in otherwise mint rocker panels, I hope you fix that before rust gets in.

Should probably rig up a check engine light so you know if you're throwing any codes, I'm using the choke light in my cluster for this. My buddy suggested I replace the choke symbol for the international symbol for fuel computer distress, the swastika.

I'm eagerly awaiting the road test results.

xvok
06-26-2007, 04:51 PM
i didnt rely take the time to read all the post and this might be stoopid to say but did you have the head and block machined down and use a new head gasket? bucause if not that might be you problem even if you use a new gasket sometimes on old blocks they will just never meat up quite right and blow after like a day to a week. thats all from me

MustardCat
07-10-2007, 06:56 PM
Guyhatesmycar asked me to update this thread so here goes...

Cars done! :rockon: Finished it 2 weeks ago and brought it back to the bay with me.

Runs good, not throwing any codes. I decided not to wire in a check engine light, I just don't feel I need it, if I suspect a problem I will just check the LED on the ECU. It never had A/C so that wasnt a problem for me.

I did drill those holes in the rocker panels, but they arent mint. I sprayed some primer on them to seal them for now. One of those thing I would have liked to do "cleaner" but I was just too short on time.

The digital clock was plug and play no wiring required, FYI.

The car drives great, I did the swap using the super tall geared ES2 trans and it's still much faster then my 3g was(Had short geared 2g lude trans). Plus side is that it gets awesome gas mileage. Having a lot of fun driving it around. I bent and twisted the gas pedal around till it was just right and now I find it super easy to heel-toe in this car.

Here are some pics. Next time I wash it I plan on getting proper pics 'cause this is all I have for now:

Here is how I mounted the Walbro pump in the stock location. I wrapped it in old radiator hose for vibration insulation, and used a U bolt to secure it:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/4/x1.jpg

My digi clock:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/4/x2.jpg

Random pics from the drive back, awesome weather:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/4/x3.jpg

She goes pretty good:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/4/x4.jpg


So the remaining problems I still intend to fix are:

1. Clutch will slip when it's very cold sometimes. (It's the ES2 clutch, may not have enough clamping force for the a20.)
2. Missing a vaccume line on the heater core, the center door doesnt open.
3. Muffler has rust holes, sounds crazy at high RPM.
4. Can't find lowering springs for it.
5. Can't find lowering springs for it!!!


Future mods:

1. CAI, has super short ram right now. Already ordered this.
2. Header. Probably a cheapo paceshitter with a repaint and wrap.
3. Custom 2.25" exhaust with hi flow cat and proper muffler. This ES2 exhaust has to be restricting the a20 terrible like.
4. Exedy clutch and one of those 9 lbs. aluminium flywheels.
5. Re-install the short geared 2G lude trans with the clutch and flywheel.
6. Frickin lowering springs if I can ever get a hold of them! Plus the Koni inserts. Springs!
7. Strut tower bars.
8. Oil pressure, water temp, and volt meter gauges.




Yeah if anyone hasnt figured it out by now, I desperately need some lowering springs. I'm not buying anything else for this car untill I am sure I can get stiffer springs for it. Eibach is disconinued, B+G too.....

Ichiban
07-12-2007, 04:52 PM
Nice!

I found a couple of websites still claiming the B+G springs for sale. Did you check them out?

2ndGenGuy
07-12-2007, 09:58 PM
I'd guess that those sites for the B+G springs don't really have them... most sites that claim to have anything don't really, they just drop ship stuff from the factory, and leave the shit on their website even after the factory discontinues it.

Nice work though MustardCat! You were in the bay area this weekend?! Dude, you missed the meet! I wish I could have seen your car while I was down there... Damn! I was so close! Aah maybe next time I drive down...

If you do put a 2g lude tranny in, don't forget to get the one for the 1.8 lude. The 2.0's have the 3g size splines, and your 2g axles won't fit.

And if you do an exhaust, I can tell you at least about mine and what NOT to do. Right now, my car has the DC header, with a Magnaflow highflow cat, 2.25 inch exhaust and Magnaflow muffler. It's got that damn farty sound, that kinda annoys me. I'd suggest trying something other than a Magnaflow. I think even MessyHonda has a Magnaflow and he says the same exact thing.

Also, strut tower bars, you'll have to build yourself. I've never seen a set that works. I have a 240SX bar that is VERY close. It might be something good to start with, but it doesn't clear the hood. Any strut bar that has an upward curve won't fit under our hoods.

MustardCat
07-12-2007, 10:24 PM
I've got a line on some springs that may still be available, SPAX makes some, they are still listed in their catalog as a special order part. Bad part is SPAX is a british company and none of their U.S. dealers list them on their websites, so I've got some e-mails out. Part number is S012003 in case anyone is wondering.

The trans was originally out of a 1.8, when I put it in my 3G accord I had to swap out the spider gears in the diff. to get the axles to fit, so when I put it in the 84 I'll just dig out the original 1.8 spider gears and re-install those.

For my STB's I'm just going to make some from scratch, I designed and produced some for 3G ludes so I'm pretty familiar with making them. I think on this car I'm going to add some additional bracing to stiffen it up more.

I was here last weekend but I was working so I would have probably missed it anyways, course I didnt even know there was one till now. :-)

2ndGenGuy
07-13-2007, 07:33 AM
Cool! I remember you mentioning making some strut braces for the 2nd Gen Accord a while back. If you're down for making another set, I'll come up with the $$$ to make it worth your time. I don't have the tools to do much fabrication... :(

Oh yeah, company in Australia still makes springs for our cars. King Springs. Shipping is KILLER though. Almost as much as the springs themselves. I think they were going to charge me like $700 after all was said and done. If I hadn't picked up my Eibachs, I would have done it though.

http://www.kingsprings.com/

MessyHonda
07-13-2007, 01:21 PM
And if you do an exhaust, I can tell you at least about mine and what NOT to do. Right now, my car has the DC header, with a Magnaflow highflow cat, 2.25 inch exhaust and Magnaflow muffler. It's got that damn farty sound, that kinda annoys me. I'd suggest trying something other than a Magnaflow. I think even MessyHonda has a Magnaflow and he says the same exact thing.




for me i think it took some time to break in the new high flow cat and muffler. its not as raspy as yours anymore. it only does it when the car is cold but after its warm doesnt rasp alot. or maybe its thoes .2 more liters that keep more of a backpresure on the system. i did hear your and it was damn ricer loud...hahaha. anyways i think its time for a resignator.

2ndGenGuy
07-13-2007, 02:49 PM
for me i think it took some time to break in the new high flow cat and muffler. its not as raspy as yours anymore. it only does it when the car is cold but after its warm doesnt rasp alot. or maybe its thoes .2 more liters that keep more of a backpresure on the system. i did hear your and it was damn ricer loud...hahaha. anyways i think its time for a resignator.

Damnit! I don't wanna be ricer loud! I hope that goes away, or maybe I'll go have them put the resonator back in the system... Boo! :D Thanks for telling me BTW. Nobody else said anything... I wish I had known for sure sooner. Back to the exhaust shop!

Sorry for the thread jack / whore...:thumbdn:

88Accord-DX
07-13-2007, 04:48 PM
Very impressive for what you've done with the swap. Obvious this isn't your first run at trying to accomplish such a complicated job. Good luck finding some springs & what not. Impressed by your accomplishments. Keep it up MustardCat.

MustardCat
07-30-2008, 11:59 PM
It's been more than a year since my last post in this thread so here is an update.


The car has been running great, have not had to do a thing to it. No problems with the swap, which is pretty awesome considering the time pressures I was under when I did all the work on it.


I recently took a road trip down to San Jose. With 1 passenger, approx 100lbs luggage, and spare + tools I calculated 37mpg on I-5 driving though the mountains in south Oregon. Speeds were usually around 65-75mph.

Once in the city I got 34-35mpg with lots of lead-footing everywhere. (When in Rome...)

On the return trip I only got 35mpg on the highway, but I believe this is because I was driving mostly at 80-90mph and had the windows down because of the heat. The car goes about 450 miles on a single tank before the gas light comes on. (anyone know the listed tank size?) I gassed up in Yreka CA, near the northern border and drove right through Oregon up past Olympia WA on a single tank. So I'm pretty happy with the gas mileage, and I think with some tweaking and whatnot I can get 40mpg highway easy.


So to sum up how I feel: I think this swap is perfect for someone who's looking for an easy bolt-in motor with minimal investment and a good increase in power. Just dropping in a stock 88-89 LXi A20a3 I gained +34HP and +23 ft-lb torque, plus there is still plenty of room to get even more power from the motor. There is also a bazillion cheap junky 3G Accords out there with all the parts you will need for the swap, so parts are easy to get.

Some recent pictures:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/p3g/Misc/Setup/84Accord/14.JPG
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/p3g/Misc/Setup/84Accord/13.JPG
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/p3g/Misc/Setup/84Accord/17.JPG
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/p3g/Misc/Setup/84Accord/26.JPG
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/p3g/Misc/Setup/84Accord/27.JPG

2ndGenGuy
07-31-2008, 09:41 AM
Sweet man! Glad it's still going! So when are you going to come back through Olympia and give me a ride in it? :D I bet that torquier motor with the fuel injection gets great mileage in that car. Seems like they should have put the A20 in this car in the first place.

A18A
07-31-2008, 11:22 AM
really cool! :D

forrest89sei
07-31-2008, 11:58 AM
Sweet!!

AccordB20A
08-01-2008, 01:03 AM
i must admit i love the efi

Civic Accord Honda
08-04-2008, 12:27 PM
epic succeed!

1987AccordLx-i
10-07-2008, 12:45 PM
thats a really good build man.. glad to see 2nd gens using 3rd gen engines..

i have a question tho.. kinda noobish..

how can you see what your getting MPG wise? computer or just do math with every tank of gas you burn up?

84Accord
10-07-2008, 02:34 PM
thats a really good build man.. glad to see 2nd gens using 3rd gen engines..

i have a question tho.. kinda noobish..

how can you see what your getting MPG wise? computer or just do math with every tank of gas you burn up?

its prob just doing the math lol miles driven divided by the gas you used(how many gallons you fill up)

1987AccordLx-i
10-07-2008, 04:59 PM
its prob just doing the math lol miles driven divided by the gas you used(how many gallons you fill up)

ok heres a good one.. i filled up and so far im getting around 150-200miles to the tank..

im no genius but thats not good at all haha.. ideas?

2ndGenGuy
10-07-2008, 05:15 PM
Well, if you're low on power, and you're getting shitty mileage there are a number of things:

Ignition Timing
Cam Timing
Improper Mixture
Injector Problems
Clogged Air Filter
Clogged Cat

I'm sure there are more.

84Accord
10-07-2008, 05:30 PM
ok heres a good one.. i filled up and so far im getting around 150-200miles to the tank..

im no genius but thats not good at all haha.. ideas?

holy crap! that is really bad.
i get about 340 miles to a tank

1987AccordLx-i
10-07-2008, 05:52 PM
Well, if you're low on power, and you're getting shitty mileage there are a number of things:

Ignition Timing
Cam Timing
Improper Mixture
Injector Problems
Clogged Air Filter
Clogged Cat

I'm sure there are more.

it boggs on take off.. bad.. boggs til about 3k then hits powerband.. and sometimes it misses and pops at idle in park... air filters dirty but its the same as if i run it without the filter..


holy crap! that is really bad.
i get about 340 miles to a tank


lucky haha.. i wanna get more milage but dam idk whats going on

Dcadiente
09-26-2020, 09:19 AM
Yoooo Mustardcat? You still around these forums?

MustardCat
09-29-2020, 10:38 AM
Don't really hang around the forums but I am still around.

Dcadiente
10-04-2020, 12:59 PM
ill private message you. I just got myself an 85 Honda accord hatch