compression

[sinisterfuzzy]

~~NATE OF N.D. ENGINES READ THIS (http://www.digifuzz.com/engine_build.html)~~

alright, i searched for a lil bit but i was just wondering... how much does a higher compression really help? i mean if you were to do an all engine build how much does compression really help? like if i go up to 10.5:1 or 11:1 along with the rest of my engine build will I really see more acceleration or power?

[bobafett]

in general, it helps quite a bit, but not very many people with A20's have tried this. the a20 isn't exactly an NA powerhouse. but for good allmotor motors, like K and B series, high(er) compression is a great way to make power.

keep in mind that with high compression you will need really good fuel, and careful tuning, just like a boosted car. its by no means a 'quick and reliable' way to make power.

but in general its a really cheap way to make a good solid increase in power. (cheap in terms of cost of headwork and supporing mods, vs the cost of domed pistons alone lol)

[sinisterfuzzy]

thanks for the info, but here is my complete (just engine) build that i'm thinking of right now. what sort of compression should i run for this?

Colt Cams Tri-Flow
Titanium Valve Spring Retainers
Racing Springs
.5mm Oversized Valves
Valve Guides
Valve Guide Seals
Headwork
Engine Balancing
Cylinder Hone
Block Decking
Shot Peened and Polished Rods

i'll probly be running this on a weber 38 and 2.25" or 2.5" exhaust.

p.s. i know i've posted about 5.6 million different engine builds but this one i'm pretty sure i like, i've talked to a few engine builders and such i think i'm gunna stick to this one so which compression would be alright for this set-up?

[bobafett]

nobody can make up your mind for you.

do you want to run premium gas and take your car somewhere to pay and get it dyno tuned?

i am very conservative when it comes to being safe rather than radical. the shop I went with reccomended no more than 9.5:1 on stock engine management. I ended up going with 8.4:1 since I am boosting.

hard to say what you 'should' do, but a 11:1 setup would probably be lots of fun, but u will need to be very careful with it.

[2ndGenGuy]

I'm also going to run the Colt Cams tri-flow. Did you decide which stage cam you were going to run with? It sounds like with your build you'd probably be safe running it in the Stage 2 powerband. The stage 2 tri-flow cam is from 3500-7500rpm I believe. With all that bottom end build and top end build, it sounds like you'd be okay.

I've also read a few things about titanium engine parts. I hear that titanium is very strong, but is brittle and tends to wear out faster. It's good for racing applications where people are rebuilding engines all the time, but for longevity, I've read it's not the best. I may be wrong on this though...

[rjudgey]

Hmm, 11:1 would be good but you'd need at least 95 ron octane to run properly, 12:1 you'd need at least 98-100 ron.
As far as pistons go stick with flat top and only have a single valve relief cut for the exhaust valve, and have the deck cut and head skimmed a little to help. As far as your valve sizes go don't mess about with only .5mm increase in size waste of time you can run 33mm inlet valves and 37mm exhaust Valves this will give a huge boost in performance as you'll be able to cut some wicked valve seats and back cuts onto the valves.

[sinisterfuzzy]

do you want to run premium gas and take your car somewhere to pay and get it dyno tuned?



yeah, i was planning on getting it dyno tuned, and i don't have that big of a problem getting premium gas and if all i really need to run is 95-97 octane I could get some of that Torco accelerator.


Hmm, 11:1 would be good but you'd need at least 95 ron octane to run properly, 12:1 you'd need at least 98-100 ron.
As far as pistons go stick with flat top and only have a single valve relief cut for the exhaust valve, and have the deck cut and head skimmed a little to help. As far as your valve sizes go don't mess about with only .5mm increase in size waste of time you can run 33mm inlet valves and 37mm exhaust Valves this will give a huge boost in performance as you'll be able to cut some wicked valve seats and back cuts onto the valves.

as for those valves, where would i get those valves, and what would I tell the machine shop dude in terms of what size to make them? depending on the size of my paycheck tommarow i might be ordering my valves verry soon.


I'm also going to run the Colt Cams tri-flow. Did you decide which stage cam you were going to run with? It sounds like with your build you'd probably be safe running it in the Stage 2 powerband. The stage 2 tri-flow cam is from 3500-7500rpm I believe. With all that bottom end build and top end build, it sounds like you'd be okay.

I've also read a few things about titanium engine parts. I hear that titanium is very strong, but is brittle and tends to wear out faster. It's good for racing applications where people are rebuilding engines all the time, but for longevity, I've read it's not the best. I may be wrong on this though...

how much does the stage 2 run? and if i wouldn't go with Ti parts would i be safer getting some Aluminum retainers wouldn't be as strong as Ti.

and as for this whole build anyone have any ideas on what my performance would look like on 95 octane gas (everyday) and then like 100+ (track nights)? and would i have raised my redline at all?



hard to say what you 'should' do, but a 11:1 setup would probably be lots of fun, but u will need to be very careful with it.

do you mean i can't just beat on it everyday? what do you mean by be careful, if this build means that I am seeing some serious performance gains i'd be extremely cautious to make sure it lasted.

[sinisterfuzzy]

and am i going to want to get forged pistons? and has anyone else on here gotten any?

[bobafett]

lol you probably dont want to try to run 95 octane for every tank of gas. do u know that race gas is like what $11-$12 per gallon now? i would stick with the highest CR you can go on pump gas. which is probably 10.5 ish....

and i dont mean that you cant beat on it, but its all in the tune. if you do a nice conservative tune, and your AFR's are in check, you can do whatever you want... but its not going to be cheap keeping good gas in there. $20 extra a tank doesnt sound worth it to me. :) (or whatever it would cost to actually raise octane from 92 to 95).

forged pistons and rods might be nice if you want a lighter rotating assembly, or just a motor that can resist heat and detonation better, so that a sloppy tune or a weird tank of gas might not blow up your motor. there is just a larger room for error with the stronger forged pistons.

[sinisterfuzzy]

it shouldn't cost that much if you add some of this (http://www.torco.com/index.php?fuseaction=home.display&id=40) to premium. one of those brings 5 gallons of 93 octane to 107. So if you added like 3/4s of one of those to a full tank you should be alright, right? but how significant would the difference be between 10.5:1 and 11:1? if it's not that spectacular i might as well just go with 10.5, rjudgey made it sound like different valves then what i planned would make a great increase.

[sinisterfuzzy]

^edit

[MessyHonda]

and am i going to want to get forged pistons? and has anyone else on here gotten any?
just get these PISTONS (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53439) ....thoes are cheap.... and it raices your cr to 10.3 its not a bad boast at all.

[sinisterfuzzy]

hm, how much did he want for those? i might need to pick those up...

[MessyHonda]

hm, how much did he want for those? i might need to pick those up...

he wanted 300 for the car....and 250 shipped for the pistons...the car is worth it tho.... just the flywheel is worth it...hahaha


Well, the engine finally popped today @ 127,056.8 Miles. Overheated and blew a lot of smoke (Broken radiator lines rule.)

Since I'm most likely moving to an area that will not allow me to work on the vehicle, lack of storage space here in MA, and various other reasons, I'm going to go ahead and either sell it as a parts car in whole or part it out to you guys.

It's an SEi conversion, so there's a bunch of rare goodies for you all.
Full leather interior, armrest, cupholders, etc.

Also have JDM corners, a brand spanking new (<200mi) Clutchnet Organic Sprung hub clutch, double-capacity Clutchnet yellow pressure plate, Phrenology's 15.8lb flywheel, Brembo blanks up front (Left slightly damaged due to wheel flying off @ ~50mph around a turn today. Way to feel mortal.), AEM pads up front, OEM-spec rear discs, OEM spec rear pads, 1995 Acura Legend 110amp alternator, 4th gen Map sensor, 4th gen injectors, custom OEM downpipe to 2" full back exhaust. High flow 2.25" Cat meant for a Firebird/Camaro, no resonator, straight to a 2" oval Dynomax Ultraflow muffler. There's some other stuff I can't remember.

Sound system is decent. Forgot the kind of speakers I have, but they're all brand matched and 3-ways. CD player is a JVC MP3/WMA/CD-RW player that puts out a nice clean sound.

[2ndGenGuy]

Also, don't get confused between "RON" and the US ratings for Octane. rjudgey was using RON when he said 95-100. In the US we use the average between RON and MON, which are standards used elsewhere in the world.

RON is typically higher than the US octane rating... so 87 octane in the US is usually about 91-95 RON. So 95-100 RON is typically our premium gas here (92 octane).

Heres more info, interesting read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

[2ndGenGuy]

how much does the stage 2 run?

It's costing me about $205 shipped both ways. When I spoke with the Colt guy on the phone he was very helpful. He said that Honda cams are the strongest cams made. He said that aftermarket cams are junk compared to an OEM Honda cam. He won't regrind aftermarket cams for Hondas either, and that he would rather someone go to the junk yard and pull an OEM cam for regrind because of how durable they are. He guaranteed mine for 5 years at least. Here is the info they e-mailed me with:



To John,

Thank-you, for contacting us.
Our most popular grinds for the 12V SOHC Honda's are known as the "TRI FLOW".
The principal behind the design is to open the intake valves progressively.
We find opening both valves at the same time causes more bottom end loss than necessary.

By opening one valve first allows the fuel to travel across the chamber at a greater velocity and then helps pull in the second charge.
These profiles also help cut down on overlap and work great in Turbo's and N.O.S.
applications.

STAGE 1 - PRIM INT 270° .384 LIFT
SEC INT 260° .384 LIFT
EX 274° .402 LIFT
Best all around wake up grind works with F.I. as well. No mods are required.
Power band is 2800 - 6500 R.P.M. approximately.
The cost for this one is $175.00 Canadian or $ 140.00 US
Customer supplies cam core.


STAGE 2 - PRIM INT 280° .392 LIFT
SEC INT 268° .383 LIFT
EX 288° .394 LIFT
Recommended for carburetor engine. However, it will work on F.I. with a noticeable idle
and possibly a slight surge. Strong mid range. No mods are required
Power band is 3500 - 7500 R.P.M.
The cost for this one is $225.00 Canadian or $180.00 US.
Customer supplies cam core.


STAGE 3 - PRIM INT 292° .413 LIFT
SEC. INT 272° .402 LIFT
EX. 302° .428 LIFT
Carb. only. Race Only.
The power band is from 4500 + R.P.M.
The cost for this one is $325.00 Canadian or $260.00 US.
Customer supplies cam core.

[MessyHonda]

hm, how much did he want for those? i might need to pick those up...

he wanted 300 for the car....and 250 shipped for the pistons...the car is worth it tho.... just the flywheel is worth it...hahaha


Well, the engine finally popped today @ 127,056.8 Miles. Overheated and blew a lot of smoke (Broken radiator lines rule.)

Since I'm most likely moving to an area that will not allow me to work on the vehicle, lack of storage space here in MA, and various other reasons, I'm going to go ahead and either sell it as a parts car in whole or part it out to you guys.

It's an SEi conversion, so there's a bunch of rare goodies for you all.
Full leather interior, armrest, cupholders, etc.

Also have JDM corners, a brand spanking new (<200mi) Clutchnet Organic Sprung hub clutch, double-capacity Clutchnet yellow pressure plate, Phrenology's 15.8lb flywheel, Brembo blanks up front (Left slightly damaged due to wheel flying off @ ~50mph around a turn today. Way to feel mortal.), AEM pads up front, OEM-spec rear discs, OEM spec rear pads, 1995 Acura Legend 110amp alternator, 4th gen Map sensor, 4th gen injectors, custom OEM downpipe to 2" full back exhaust. High flow 2.25" Cat meant for a Firebird/Camaro, no resonator, straight to a 2" oval Dynomax Ultraflow muffler. There's some other stuff I can't remember.

Sound system is decent. Forgot the kind of speakers I have, but they're all brand matched and 3-ways. CD player is a JVC MP3/WMA/CD-RW player that puts out a nice clean sound.

[sinisterfuzzy]

and i just called up Gude and asked them, they said with there head they sell for the car you can run 91 octane gas on 10.8:1. and since i'm pretty far away from gude couldn't i just have a machineshop up here work the head to run that?

[sinisterfuzzy]

and btw S&S still makes headers for us right? they were still on there website they're $350 or something so they should be teh shit right?

[gfrg88]

and i just called up Gude and asked them, they said with there head they sell for the car you can run 91 octane gas on 10.8:1. and since i'm pretty far away from gude couldn't i just have a machineshop up here work the head to run that?

well rjudgey said that their heads were just basically cleaned up, that they werent the best. sooo i dont know :dunno:

[dillirk]

I read in Hot Rod a long time ago that each point in compression increace you can expect 4% increase in HP. on a V8 putting out 350 HP thats 14 HP on our 2l about 5HP fully modded maybe 10 HP I doesn't sound like much but with P&P and a good cam 11 to 1 could give you 20HP over 9.3. Thats a big jump for a four banger. Since Higher Comp pistons don't realy cost much more than stock its cheap HP but No more Cheap Gas EVER!!!

[sinisterfuzzy]

do you guys think with my build up i have listed here i could maybe hit 14's at all? and if i can't what else do i need to get there?

here's the complete build...

Weber 38
S&S Header
Custom Cam Gear

Engine Components
Forged Pistons
Oversized Valves
Racing Springs
Colt Cams Tri-Flow Stage 2
Titanium Valve Spring Retainers
Valve Guides
Valve Guide Seals

Machine Work
Headwork
Oversized Valves Installed
Engine Balancing
Cylinder Hone
Block Decking
Shot Peened and Polished Rods

Transmission
Stage 2 Pressure Plate
Stage 2 Clutch
Flywheel Lightened, Balanced, Resurfaced


what size was rjudgey talking about for the valves?

[gfrg88]

do you guys think with my build up i have listed here i could maybe hit 14's at all? and if i can't what else do i need to get there?

here's the complete build...

Weber 38
S&S Header
Custom Cam Gear

Engine Components
Forged Pistons
Oversized Valves
Racing Springs
Colt Cams Tri-Flow Stage 2
Titanium Valve Spring Retainers
Valve Guides
Valve Guide Seals


Machine Work
Headwork
Oversized Valves Installed
Engine Balancing
Cylinder Hone
Block Decking
Shot Peened and Polished Rods

Transmission
integra hybrid conversion
Stage 2 Pressure Plate
Stage 2 Clutch
Flywheel Lightened, Balanced, Resurfaced


what size was rjudgey talking about for the valves?

[gfrg88]

do you guys think with my build up i have listed here i could maybe hit 14's at all? and if i can't what else do i need to get there?
here's the complete build...
Weber 38
S&S Header
Custom Cam Gear
Engine Components
Forged Pistons
Oversized Valves
Racing Springs
Colt Cams Tri-Flow Stage 2
Titanium Valve Spring Retainers
Valve Guides
Valve Guide Seals
Machine Work
Headwork
Oversized Valves Installed
Engine Balancing
Cylinder Hone
Block Decking
Shot Peened and Polished Rods

Transmission
integra hybrid conversion
Stage 2 Pressure Plate
Stage 2 Clutch
Flywheel Lightened, Balanced, Resurfaced
what size was rjudgey talking about for the valves?

[sinisterfuzzy]

integra hybrid conversion? is that the gear box thing? how hard is that to do?

[MessyHonda]

integra hybrid conversion? is that the gear box thing? how hard is that to do?

im not sure but you can put like 1st gen integra gears into the trans....like 1st 2nd and 3rd and then leave the 4th and 5th gears from the accord for highway use. well if the engine is out and the trans is out it should not be hard. search for it buddy

[sinisterfuzzy]

d'oh forgot to search... i'll do that lol. i'm trying guys.

[rjudgey]

The Teg box conversion is definately worth doing but you'll need to keep all gears as they are only exception would be 5th use one from a EXI Accord or Prelude SI the others are too tall unless you really want low revs at cruising speed. Personally i'd leave it as is but on Drag strip you need all first 4 teg gears even with a 8k rpm limit.

As for the valves, don't waste money on retainers, if you get some spare exhaust valves and springs and retainers then just use those on the inlet ports and that will upgrade you to double springs, the exhaust valves will need turning down to 33mm from 35mm if you want to be more conservative on size could go for 31.5 or 32mm but honestly bigger the better i've run 33mm inlet valves on mine and had absoultely no issues even sat on the stock valve seats!! The exhaust you can leave as it is 35mm if you increase your CR ratio to 11:1 you won't really need a bigger exhaust valve, but as you are having loads of stuff done personally i'd get 4 exhaust valves made up custom from stainless steel and have 37mm fitted the better shape and thinned stem would help increase air flow out the head.

As far as Gude head goes it's just a cleanup with good valve seats and valve head backcuts which to be honest get's you a good improvement but if you took that further with more advanced work around the valve guides and then with bigger valves you'd be looking at a huge gain on top again. Bigger valves really do make a huge difference and the great thing is they work better no matter what camshafts you use stock or heavy modded you just get loads more bhp and torque across the rev range not to mention the engine sounding twice as loud!!

[sinisterfuzzy]

The Teg box conversion is definately worth doing but you'll need to keep all gears as they are only exception would be 5th use one from a EXI Accord or Prelude SI the others are too tall unless you really want low revs at cruising speed. Personally i'd leave it as is but on Drag strip you need all first 4 teg gears even with a 8k rpm limit.
As for the valves, don't waste money on retainers, if you get some spare exhaust valves and springs and retainers then just use those on the inlet ports and that will upgrade you to double springs, the exhaust valves will need turning down to 33mm from 35mm if you want to be more conservative on size could go for 31.5 or 32mm but honestly bigger the better i've run 33mm inlet valves on mine and had absoultely no issues even sat on the stock valve seats!! The exhaust you can leave as it is 35mm if you increase your CR ratio to 11:1 you won't really need a bigger exhaust valve, but as you are having loads of stuff done personally i'd get 4 exhaust valves made up custom from stainless steel and have 37mm fitted the better shape and thinned stem would help increase air flow out the head.
As far as Gude head goes it's just a cleanup with good valve seats and valve head backcuts which to be honest get's you a good improvement but if you took that further with more advanced work around the valve guides and then with bigger valves you'd be looking at a huge gain on top again. Bigger valves really do make a huge difference and the great thing is they work better no matter what camshafts you use stock or heavy modded you just get loads more bhp and torque across the rev range not to mention the engine sounding twice as loud!!

so what do i tell the machinist? in terms of how to make the valves?

[88Accord-DX]

Don't forget if you thin the valve stem, you'll need thinner valve guides pressed in the head. That's is if you thin it all the way up to the top.

[rjudgey]

If the machinist is any good he should know what to do!!

Get 8 exhaust valves secondhand ones that aren't worn on the stem or bent are fine, the stem only gets thinned by 1mm on the part that is in the port not all the way up as far as the guide and then add the amount of lift on the cam below to get the right length if you don't you won't be able to use the double valve springs and retainers on the exhaust valves. You can get double valves springs a retainers for the smaler stock valves but you need to find an early 2G accord with an ET1 head, or you could just use springsa nd retainers from a ET or A18 Prelude head there pretty strong and will handle revs upto 8k wihtout any issues.

[sinisterfuzzy]

so with this build up... what kind of quarter miles do you think would be achievable?

[MessyHonda]

so with this build up... what kind of quarter miles do you think would be achievable?

16s....maybe low 16s if you stiped the whole car....this is not a common build so you are on your own....but i hope you do it so you can show the rest of the people how to do it right.

[rjudgey]

How comes your only going with a Weber DGV 38/38 to be honest with all those mods that carb is going to suck big time you'll have an engine capable of 200-220bhp and it will only produce 160-170bhp because of the carb and inlet manifold. Best bet is pair of Weber DCOE 45's on custom inlet manifold or if your on a tight budget surf around for some mikuni sports bike carbs from 1000cc upwards size engine and have custom inelt manifold made up to fit them wouldn't be too hard for a good welder.

You can try it with the DGV 38/38 to begin with and then see what happens then if it's really killing the power sell the DGV and inlet manifold to another 3G owner good basic upgrade for carb guy's or someone who's had enough of FI. I really can't see it putting down much more than 170bhp maybe a bit more depends if there's anything you can do to make them flow a bit better e.g. if butterfly screws are round head then use countersunk etc. Any casting flash on inside of carb throats smooth out etc.etc.

The larger valves are well worth doing best mod i've ever done to my engines all my future heads will all have bigger valves in them big difference in power and noise ;0)

[sinisterfuzzy]

yeah i would it just seems that dual dcoes would be a lot of work, and custom intake manifold would cost a lot wouldn't it? i don't know it just seems like a lot of custom work that i really don't know much about. Dual DCOEs would be bad ass especially if i turbo'd it down the road too... But overall for the power i'd get just the valves sounds pretty good to me for now. I really wanna get my car looking nicer before i get engine work done. But really the whole Valve upgrade doesn't sound too expensive. So once i do get to the point of engine work i'll probly get the Valve stuff and get my compression bumped up a little bit. I'll see where the Weber 38 gets me first, maybe down the road DCOE but i'd probly convert to FI before i did that. DCOEs are lots of $$$$

[rjudgey]

I've just had twon inlet manifolds made cost me £180 a piece then add about £20 for bits and bobs needed to fit the carbs. Carbs are around £250-280 each new linkage kit is about £50. Individual Throttle bodies are still way more expensive even than Webers DCOE's but as i said before Bike carbs are well worth looking at or even maybe Bike Throttle bodies. There are people in U.K. that can make, fit and setup bike carbs from Honda Fireblade to any four pot engine for around £400-500 al in. Which is a bargain considering that the Webers alone bare would set u back just over that!! But if you like fiddling and tuning you can't beat the webers much easier to DIY tune when you know how to. I Have about £300 worth of jets, tubes, chokes, trumpets just for fine tuning the DCOE's.

[sinisterfuzzy]

anyone know a better place to get valve guides, seals, spring retainers and what not, i've been talking to KMS (www.honda-performance.com) a lot an he said he could do it, but from all the bad i've read about him, any other places?

[rjudgey]

Valve guides for the inlet won't be needed unless you stick with stock valves, the new exhaust valves which would be converted to inelt valves will have thicker stems so the old ones just get reemed out to the new size. The exhuast valves should be maybe replaced with custom made bronze ones shouldn't cost much from a engine specialist who makes valves and does headwork. Cost me about £15 each to ahve made and £5 to fit and you only need 4 otherwise just get 4 stock exhaust guides, also if you grind the whole end of the guide and reshape the port round the guide will wear out quicker as it will have less length to support the valve with. Best bet is to design the guide ramp and the guide end into a more aerodynamic shape like in the pictures in my cardomain. Otherwise you'll have to re-build your head every 20-30k miles with new guides, but if you have bronze ones made they will last a lot longer anyway upto 60-90k miles i had a set on my first head i did they are still like new even though i had done 30k race miles on that head. Might be an idea just to get all 12 done and the bronze liners are a waste of money don't bother.
Is this another case of you can't find any quality engineers at a reasonable cost again? Howmuch is the headwork going to run you with the mods you have in mind?

[sinisterfuzzy]

i'm not really sure about how much it will cost probly $300 or so

[sinisterfuzzy]

alright since this has turned more into Jordan's Performance thread, i guess i'd just put up that im considering this carb (http://www.barrygrant.com/news/articles/products/product_015.aspx), the 650. I called them up and they said that they've ran 28psi of boost through one and 12-15psi would be no problem and reliable. so that being said i think i'm going to throw this on there the shop said a intake for that would cost about $400 so not too bad. I do this because it's a nice 4bbl carb and if i wanted to turbo i could down the road, i still am planning on doing all the other things i was talking about except i'd probly keep my compression the same. unless could i lower the compression down the road when i'm ready for a turbo? so keep my 10.5:1 or so and then once i have everything i'd need for a turbo kit i could just get my compression lowered?

[sinisterfuzzy]

also if i did go the EFI route, what all goes into converting to OBD-1 and would i need obd-1 to get Megasquirt?

[bobafett]

sure. u would need new pistons though.

you really need to do some more research on obd1 and ms. you don't need obd1 to run ms, but you will need an electronic dizzy if you want to really gain advantages of fine tuning. the easiest way that we (as a whole) have come up with is to just upgrade to an obd1 setup since they have electronically controlled distributor.

[sinisterfuzzy]

alright what about for converting to obd-1 and stuff...

[bobafett]

fucking search man....

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52490&highlight=obd1+conversion
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18160&highlight=obd1+conversion

it may be tough to perform the conversion, but its not rocket science to fucking click the search link and type in 'obd1 conversion' if you dont like those results, you could try 'obd1 swap' if you dont like that you could even try 'obd1' omg the possibilities are endless, you should give it a try sometime before you ask over and over....

http://www.3geez.com/forum/search.php

[sinisterfuzzy]

alright thanks for the links, sorry i'll try to search first.

[bobafett]

this is a long thread, but has a lot of good info in it.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37494