Go easy...I'm a newbie

[Toohardtohandle]

Hi,

I'm new to the site, and I'm a new owner of a 1988 Honda Accord EX-i. I've recently added a K&N Filter and a Pacesetter Header, but I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions about what I could do next to get a little more HP without going internal. And with my current changes, would anyone know (best guess) how many HP I have now?

Much appreciated,

Toohardtohandle

[ChaseR]

How much of a change did you notice with that new header?

[Vector]

there isnt much more you can do without doing somthing to the engine itself.
if you can afford it, talk to Geoff from coltcams (http://www.coltcams.com) and get a tri-flow stage I or II, you will need to do a valve, lash adjustment after, that will give you alittle more. good plugs/wires and accel or msd coil would help alittle to.

[2oodoor]

I am also interested in how much you got with the header, should have been very noticeable, things like not having to give it near as much throttle or gas pedal to make it go at normal driving. Your question could get a few more answers if you said if it was automatic, how many miles, what is the rest of the exhaust, what does your engine temp normally run, f(you would need an infrared thermometer to check that) , does the car have dist. , I think it does and if so you can try giving it 2 more degrees of advance, if it spark knocks or rattles like cheap gas sound, put it back until you can measure exhaust temp and o2 readings, that is where temp change measurements come into factor. Other than providing some more details about your car, just concentrate on regular preventive maintenance items, like fuel filters., tire pressure, plug gap,
Are you wanting to race it or just get a lil more respect on the highway?
racing is out of the question, unless you do a swap,then your in business, unless you wanna stick 15000 or more into a A20, it aint gonna ever break over 200 hp, there are those that have and will argue with me but sometimes everyone gets lucky,oh turbos are a good route to go if your up to the challange. you can get respectable HP with the right setup turbo. yep too much info too quick. hope you can get something outto it. 'as for this minute try advancing the ign timing just a few degrees, check the forum,,, newbie...
?ALSO very important, pacesetter headers do not port match the headers to the head, so there is gobs of restriction defeating the purpose of the header, the factory may have corrected the problem Im not really sure.
asn

[Vector]

the header and exhaust helps top end i find.

[Toohardtohandle]

Thanks for the replies.

The exhaust remains the same, which is one of the things I'd like to change. From what I can gather 2.25 is the best diameter? I had also heard that a different throttle body might help as well? But I'm just wondering how much of a difference it would make versus the expense? Don't get me wrong...it's not like I'm looking to race it; I just want something with a little more "get up and go". The header did make a significant difference, but what I find now is that if I'm excellerating, once I hit about 3 thousand rpm the car seems to go faster without any added pressure to the peddle? Almost as if there is some sort of restriction and all of a sudden it frees it's self? Hence why I think a free flow exhaust might help? I went with the K&N air Filter over a cold air intake because I was advised that due to the design of the car...I more or less had cold air, and that the difference between cold air and the air filter would be mininmal?

Sorry about the lack of info...the car is auto and currently has 210 thousand km on it. As far as current HP goes...the only info that I know it that I started with 120hp; but what it might be today, I have no idea?

Thanks again for your imput guys :)

[Vector]

get up and go?, coughcough5spdswapcough

[Toohardtohandle]

LMAO! Thanks Vector...I'll keep it in mind.

[Vector]

i think a somewhat stock 88-89 5spd puts down around 100whp.

[Toohardtohandle]

Vector,

Do you have any suggestions in regards to making that 5 speed swap. Where I might find a decent tranmission? How much do you think I'm looking at? Unfortunately my mechanical skills stop at about changing the head light.

[LiTtLe xOx BitT]

The swap will cost about $500 for everything if you can do it yourself. If you have an auto you probably have around 90whp stock so with a header and k&n filter you probably have about 95-100whp, you need to open up the exhaust and do a Cold Air Intake to see better gains. A CAI will run about $40, and an exhaust about $210. The first thing i would do is an intake, then the exhaust. You could also look into a B18 inyake manifold, ADJ cam gear, Blaster coil, spark plugs and wires.

[Vector]

couple things you should keep in mind tho.

unless you get a doner car from someone else that you know or really cheap and you know the tranny works, then do that since it will have everything you need to do it.

otherwise if you go the junkyard way the car should be:

low k's and in an accident, try to find one thats been rear ended or side impact, then you know the trannys mostlikely still good. front is ok to, just not to much or it will be hard to get out/damaged from the accident.

if its not those then its kinda hard to tell whether the engine or the transmission is at fault. unless you physically see somthing wrong with it. cracks or even a busted timing belt would indicate that more or less that the engine is shot.

other than that, this how-to (http://3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102) should help

[Hash_man_Se_i]

^^ Like others said 5spd swap is probably the way to go...

But other things that would probably help a lot once you get an exhaust is getting a b16 intake manifold and a proper cold air intake. The factory intakes on our cars are the most restrictive intakes I have ever seen

[Toohardtohandle]

Well now I'm pissed (at myself mostly). If I had done the research prior I could have saved myself a few bucks and put that money towards a "true" cold air intake instead of the K&N! If I do end up changing the cam, valves, and lifters. Will I have to had the distributor recurved as well? I've had a couple of different suggestions in respect to the manifold...what's the difference between a B16 and a B18?

[snoopyloopy]

...
The header did make a significant difference, but what I find now is that if I'm excellerating, once I hit about 3 thousand rpm the car seems to go faster without any added pressure to the peddle? Almost as if there is some sort of restriction and all of a sudden it frees it's self?
...
your car does that too? my car has done the same thing since i put on my dc sports headers. feels sluggish and almost as if there's a rev limiter then suddenly opens up at 3k rpm? because that's what mine does.

[Toohardtohandle]

your car does that too? my car has done the same thing since i put on my dc sports headers. feels sluggish and almost as if there's a rev limiter then suddenly opens up at 3k rpm? because that's what mine does.
Exactly! What causes that? I'm guessing, but do you think it has something to do with the lack of air flow from the exhaust?

[labeledsk8r]

first off welcome to the site. i dont know of many more things you can do besides what has been sugested, i think the slugishness is somewhat becuse of the stock exhaust myself, throw on a good high flow cat and new pipeing and high flow muffler and it should help, i dont seem to get any hold back,i have the headers, with a mostly test pipe converter and the pacesetter cat-back with pacesetter muffler wich is not as restirctive as stock but not exactly the best choice for muffler, but not anoticeable holdback under 3 grand

[snoopyloopy]

it might. i wondered that myself. i assume you're also running an auto tranny like i am. but i know it's not the tranny because it ran normally before the new headers. and i don't think there was that much of a jump in power to kill the tranny just like that. so yeah, it might be the exhaust. i when i got my headers, i got a full exhaust with it so i might throw that on one day and see if the difference is better or worse.

[Vector]

less back pressure probably. air is able to flow smoother away from the head into the rest of the exhaust system. also where the pipes merge is smoother and father down than the stock exhaust manifold so there is less turbulance there as well. atleast thats they way i see it.

[Toohardtohandle]

it might. i wondered that myself. i assume you're also running an auto tranny like i am. but i know it's not the tranny because it ran normally before the new headers. and i don't think there was that much of a jump in power to kill the tranny just like that. so yeah, it might be the exhaust. i when i got my headers, i got a full exhaust with it so i might throw that on one day and see if the difference is better or worse.
Well keep me posted...and for the love of God...put the rest of the system on your car (lol). If you start now, I figure you'll have it done by morning?

[snoopyloopy]

actually, the secondaries on the stock 88/89 efi exhaust and the dc sports headers are almost exactly alike. and the stock ones actually have a larger diameter piping than the dc sports. the difference is really in the primaries and the tuning. the dc sports primaries are a different length than the stock ones. so the secondaries are also a different length. but that's only an outside view. the inside may be drastically different from the dcs besides in piping diameter.

it'd probaby take me 15 minutes to put it on, lol. i've just been too lazy to get up and do it.

[Toohardtohandle]

less back pressure probably. air is able to flow smoother away from the head into the rest of the exhaust system. also where the pipes merge is smoother and father down than the stock exhaust manifold so there is less turbulance there as well. atleast thats they way i see it.
Ok (you're losing me here) so how do I/we correct the problem. And one other question...if you follow the thread; what is the difference between a B16 and a B18 manifold, and do you think adding that to my car will make that much of a difference?

[snoopyloopy]

b16 and b18c5 manifold is basically the same, if i'm not mistaken. but it's a different manifold than the b18c1 manifold. have you ever seen the two engines? (gsr and type-r.) the itr engine uses a "tradition" manifold like in our cars while the gsr manifold looks more like a k-series manifold in that it curves downward.

[2oodoor]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55077
snoopy check out what I said about what the transmission reacts to mods or tune ups that make the car more responsive at the throttledal. If your trans seems to act up after a mod, esp one like headers, you must adjust, very slightley the travel on the TV or detent cable. / rEAD THE HOWTO ON ADJUSTING, its a bitch to get to unless you take battery out, AND IT MAY TAKE SOME PATIENCE IF YOU ACCIDENTLY TURN IT OUT THE WRONG DIRECTION. Any change in throttle stop, or adjustment , changes the transmission slightley, they both have cables going to the gas pedal, think about it.....READ THE THREAD from today, carbs are worse, but if a throttle body on fuel inj gets dirty enough, the same thing can happen.
looks like the link didnt go, go to new posts transmission problems,
Too hot to handle, dude, you should check your timing you can give her two or more degrees after mods like headers. Also fuel filter, and make sure your cold air tube and stuff seals perfectly, no leaks for the MAF gets false reading. YOU did say you got a surge of full power past 3k right.
you guys dont give up man, working on cars sucks, never plan on doing it for a living , just a hobby, one that takes a lot of patience and research,and modifiying them, never get that money back except with wheels and interior customs , those can retain value to ;private buyers.

[Toohardtohandle]

So which is better for our cars?

[2oodoor]

So which is better for our cars?
huh

[Toohardtohandle]

huh
Sorry Roo, there was a delay between my conversation with Snoop and you. I was asking him which was the better manifold for our cars; the B16 or B18?

[88Accord-DX]

Edit- Don't need to be rude.

[2oodoor]

late? no your just in time, were short of good techs in the business now, but so much has changed, its mostley pm work for 8-10 bucks an hour, good techs take school, and a lot of time to get the experience. I was just discouraging some of the members who maybe college freshmen or high school shop students, it may not be the get rich job of a lifetime, security,computers, medical imaging are the fields I would look to , and save the stuff you learn about cars for your hobby Z06 corvette or WHATHAVEYOU

[2oodoor]

ok EFI guys, does the TPS signal to ECM go to transmission control from ECM on 3g, NO,that did not come in until 4g , 5g... Look... anybody Saying that the computer knows the throttle position on a 3g and uses it to control transmision valve body solenoids,,, no, it relys on the friggin bicycle cables on the foot pedal to tell the valve body where the throttle position is...making sense now???If you have a performance enhancment, YES you do not have to give as much foot throttle to make it twist up rpm,, so your going 1800k rpm with only quarter inch of pedal travel, when it used to take three eighths to a half of pedal travel to twist up 1800k, hence the transmission cable can now be made shorter (or longer) to accomodate the change and let the valve body contol shift points and TC lockup speed.
If the adjustment is not correct, maybe it is just a little off, either way its like running the tranny with defective , malfuncked valve body which will eat up clutch drums,plates, gears in transmission, well for one thing it could easily be stack shifting, or trying to run in two gears at once, or half locked second gear band when third comes in , second is slipping the band because teh valve body has not released pressure from the acuator for second....the tv cable , throttle valve is one of the important controls in the valve body that comes from outside the trans.

[snoopyloopy]

so tell me a little bit more about this elusive cable. is it the cable that comes off the passenger side of the tb and then goes to the tranny? or is it the one that isn't connected to the tb at all?

[Vector]

i think thats the kickdown cable.

its on both carb and efi. gimme a sec i will look.

edit, throttle control cable, i think it tries to keep the tranny in the appropiate gear while driving certain speeds and how hard your stepping on it.

this will also explain your weird shifting after changeing exhaust and intake, since you probably dont need to use a much gas compared to before the tranny will respond diferently to your foot.

[snoopyloopy]

my tranny shifts at the same range it did before the change. but it now feels almost like i have vtec on my car. sluggish until 3k where it opens up. i'm not sure if that's because it's still stock exhaust or bc of the tranny. and i'm not sure which one i want to experiment with first. (i have a full exhaust + hi-flow cat ready to go on the car so no biggie in changing that if i want to try that first.)

[Toohardtohandle]

So I just bid on "Bitsize" CAI $27.00 (CAN). But I'm still a little lost on the whole issue of timing advancement. Reading from Roo's post it sounds like I need to adjust 2-3 degrees to rectify my sluggish response until 3,000 rpm. Is that right? And what else will I need to install the CAI other than the filter?

any thoughts?

[Toohardtohandle]

I'm looking on e0bay at this skunk2 throttle body...will it help or fit my Accord?

[EX-ileAccord]

If your thinking about doing the 5 speed swap get a tranny out of a second gen prelude, its got shoter gear ratios

[2oodoor]

Yes Vector got what I was trying to say...I was wondering if anyone would understand, I am not as good a communicater as some are here.
So some cars have the tv cable on the actual gas pedal under the dash, and some cars have it on the throttle linkage up on the throttle body or carb whichever you have. If you have it up to on the TBody then it is not quite as sensative to mods but does change somewhat to the less throttle opening needed to make rpms quicker or like I say twist up quicker. On other makes of cars I always check it after power tuning a car
Makes a big difference.
Guys the tv cable does involve a lot to control valve body but is not the only thing that makes valve body start initiating the drive part of trans, just increasing the pump pressure with rpms in drive will make it move. TV cable just helps time the events in the valve body so there is not double action of other controls to shift.

[Vector]

i havent really owned a 3g w/auto trans, but i got a 100 dollar teg thats auto, i'm sure they all shift/work the same, i will mess around with it on that car, diferent adjustments and what not to see how it affects driving. besides, it needs a new transmission anyway, so if it breaks, oh well.

[2oodoor]

Oh hey newbie, toohardtohandle, I am not telling you what to do to your car, but your asked for some advice, so here is some more, dont change but one thing at a time on your car or you will wind up with so much out of sych , it will wind up being some shop techs nightmare, lol... no but seriousley fix whatever you dont feel is right , and dont just throw three or four parts on it at once and never know eXACTLY WHAT FIXED IT. GOES BOTH WAYS LOL
GOOD LUCK and Welcome to 3Geez

[88Accord-DX]

Yeah, free flow exhaust & one of these should make substancial gains.

http://www.eugeneandtex.com/rightsizemufflerforthiscar.jpg

[88Accord-DX]

dp

[B16KILLA]

lmao at last post.

[MessyHonda]

lol derec....that muffler looks like its from a semi

[Toohardtohandle]

First and foremost I wanted to thank you all for adding your two cents worth...I really appreciate it!

I'm in the midst of having my timing advanced 2-3 degrees. Hopefully that will give me a little more jump in relation to the header and K&N. I stopped by the muffler shop and asked their opinion...the exhaust that is currently on the car is almost new and just short of being that "fart-can" muffler (which I hate) it has pretty good flow. I went to Lordco Auto and asked about the cam, lifters, valves and re-curving my distrubtor; to the tune of about a thousand dollars (Can) installed. I could re-bid on Bitsize CAI on E-bay, but I don't know how much of a difference that would really make? As I mentioned in previous posts, it looks like I could take out about a foot of plastic piping and still have a foot left with the K&N at the bottom. The CAI has the tube but nothing else, so I'll still have to find a cone and install, and at the end of the day will it really make that much differnce? I'm going to start looking for a manual transmission; and I like the idea about it coming from a Prelude with the shorter gears...but again I"m going to have to find someone who will install it (clutch and all).

I remember when I first got the car I timed myself with my timex...about 12 seconds from 0-60mph. I did it again once I put the header and K&N on down to about 9 seconds. If I could gain a little more at the bottom end, I'd be happy. It's kind of funny...when I drive my car in 3D (auto) and it hits about 3 thousand rpm...it's good. Don't get me wrong it is nothing like what you guys have, but I'm happy. It pulls when I step on it, and it is waiting for more. But like I said...it's bogging down at the bottom end. I'd like it to pull from 15-20 thousand rpm right through.

Ok, ok, there you have it...my ramble for the day. And "yes" I've had one too many beer after work (lol).

[Vector]

lol @ post #41

[LiTtLe xOx BitT]

Yes, the intake will make a bigger gain then just taking off some of the original pipe and you just buy a cone filter at the local car store for $20. You can get a intake system with filter and all for $40 shipped off ebay.

[gfrg88]

First and foremost I wanted to thank you all for adding your two cents worth...I really appreciate it!
I'm in the midst of having my timing advanced 2-3 degrees. Hopefully that will give me a little more jump in relation to the header and K&N. I stopped by the muffler shop and asked their opinion...the exhaust that is currently on the car is almost new and just short of being that "fart-can" muffler (which I hate) it has pretty good flow. I went to Lordco Auto and asked about the cam, lifters, valves and re-curving my distrubtor; to the tune of about a thousand dollars (Can) installed. I could re-bid on Bitsize CAI on E-bay, but I don't know how much of a difference that would really make? As I mentioned in previous posts, it looks like I could take out about a foot of plastic piping and still have a foot left with the K&N at the bottom. The CAI has the tube but nothing else, so I'll still have to find a cone and install, and at the end of the day will it really make that much differnce? I'm going to start looking for a manual transmission; and I like the idea about it coming from a Prelude with the shorter gears...but again I"m going to have to find someone who will install it (clutch and all).
I remember when I first got the car I timed myself with my timex...about 12 seconds from 0-60mph. I did it again once I put the header and K&N on down to about 9 seconds. If I could gain a little more at the bottom end, I'd be happy. It's kind of funny...when I drive my car in 3D (auto) and it hits about 3 thousand rpm...it's good. Don't get me wrong it is nothing like what you guys have, but I'm happy. It pulls when I step on it, and it is waiting for more. But like I said...it's bogging down at the bottom end. I'd like it to pull from 15-20 thousand rpm right through.
Ok, ok, there you have it...my ramble for the day. And "yes" I've had one too many beer after work (lol).


the car feels like it doesnt want to go until it hits around 3k rpm right??? try changing you o2 sensors, my car used to be like that too. maybe someone already said on here:dunno: havent read throught everything.

and LOL at that free flowing exhaust, ima try one of those out :bowrofl:

[AccordEpicenter]

make sure your intake manifold secondaries are working. Also dont bother trying to recurve the dizzy, its mechanical and vac advance, its not easily messed with (id leave it). A cam and a bigger throttle body might help, id start working on weight reduction (toss a/c, strip trunk etc etc)