What is the next "turbo"? [Archive] - 3geez.com - Classic Honda Accord & Prelude Forum

BeatThisLXI

10-01-2006, 08:48 AM

When the concept of turbocharging came to fruititon, it was an amazingly innovative concept that increased the power of a stock engine like no other bolt on or normal mod could. I often wonder what could be the next innovative drastic speed increasing device for a car that could be applied (regardless of the amount of work or money involved) to as broad a range of vehicles as the turbo (and supercharger). Given my incredibly limited knowledge of the internal combustion engine as we know it, I can contribute very little to the how, but I am constantly thinking about the what. Perhaps there is a simple idea that no one has thought about. Because if you think about it, someone thought "hey, let's just shove more air in!" and that's a pretty simple concept.

One probably rediculous idea I had is to try to make a car with 2 (yes 2) engines that work cooperatively at the same time. If this was possible somehow, a turbocharged 3g pushing the (debatable) max of about 210bhp might find itself with 310 through maybe, I don't know a super tiny 100bhp engine? And maybe even that one could be turbocharged Perhaps one engine could be in the front and one in the back with no trunk. Ok gearheads, I've seen you guys make CRAZY stuff sound totally possible before. Let's see what we got. Anybody else got any ideas for a new continuous boost?

mkymonkey

10-01-2006, 08:59 AM

well people have put two or more engines together before. shit people still do it. i know for a fact that the very cool red neck sport of tractor pulls involve tractors with more than one engine. of course these are domestiv v8's but i dont see why someone could not simply add two 4 cyl engines together and put them in the back and have a rwd car. the only problem i see with that is that there would be no trunk whatsoever, and the front seat might be shoved up a bit to the front, as well ast he car would be very hot on the inside because of the amount of heat the two engines would produce.

i think the only way a car like this would work is if it was for drag uses only, cuz well it would be very heavy and i dont think it would corner well. haha.

Legend_master

10-01-2006, 09:05 AM

When the concept of turbocharging came to fruititon, it was an amazingly innovative concept that increased the power of a stock engine like no other bolt on or normal mod could. I often wonder what could be the next innovative drastic speed increasing device for a car that could be applied (regardless of the amount of work or money involved) to as broad a range of vehicles as the turbo (and supercharger). Given my incredibly limited knowledge of the internal combustion engine as we know it, I can contribute very little to the how, but I am constantly thinking about the what. Perhaps there is a simple idea that no one has thought about. Because if you think about it, someone thought "hey, let's just shove more air in!" and that's a pretty simple concept.
One probably rediculous idea I had is to try to make a car with 2 (yes 2) engines that work cooperatively at the same time. If this was possible somehow, a turbocharged 3g pushing the (debatable) max of about 210bhp might find itself with 310 through maybe, I don't know a super tiny 100bhp engine? And maybe even that one could be turbocharged Perhaps one engine could be in the front and one in the back with no trunk. Ok gearheads, I've seen you guys make CRAZY stuff sound totally possible before. Let's see what we got. Anybody else got any ideas for a new continuous boost?

There have been multiple cars with two engines, I have seen a carrado, a tiburon, an audi TT and some others cars with dual engines. As for teh first question here is the new bolt on mod

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/186500/186726rwYV_w.jpg :lol:

Seiosly the combustion engine is very ineficient I have heard of some newly desinged engines that can produce gobbs more HP with less effort. Look them up they are around.

BeatThisLXI

10-01-2006, 09:13 AM

3G Jester

10-01-2006, 09:31 AM

your 16 i bet i bet ;)

BeatThisLXI

10-01-2006, 09:53 AM

your 16 i bet i bet ;)
No man, I turn 20 in 3 months. But if you don't mind me asking, what the hell does that have to do with finding new mods?

speedpenguin

10-01-2006, 09:54 AM

Umm... The next step after turbo was nitrous. The question is what comes after that.

It's entirely possoble to come up with such a thing on your own. he first known nitrous system in a car was developed by an engineer who street-raced in a Mazda 323. He actually came up with a lot of things racers take for granted now. He was recently killed in an accident under suspicious circumstances after attracting attention by the electric companies while developing an elctiricty generator that would render them obsolete. (That's the rumor anyway)

BeatThisLXI

10-01-2006, 10:16 AM

Now I figured someone would say the next thing after turbo was nitrous, but I'm talking CONTINUOUS power, not momentary boost that must be recharged. That's what I don't like about nitrous, besides the fact that it's doesn't seem to be very stable in terms of possible engine damage.

Too bad about that engineer guy. Bastards. What was his name neway?

Legend_master

10-01-2006, 10:17 AM

Yeah you're probably right monkey, it would never be a daily driver, but I'm just thinking, what if we could get like a 400 hp 3g accord that way? That'd be pretty amazing. And yeah, I'm sure there's better engines than the IC but it doesn't look like (besides electric variants) they're coming into mass use anytime soon.

This (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49220) would be much cheaper and easier then putting two engines in a car if you wanted 400HP.

speedpenguin

10-01-2006, 10:21 AM

Too bad about that engineer guy. Bastards. What was his name neway?

Now that you made me think about it, I'm going to see if I can find out.

mkymonkey

10-01-2006, 10:33 AM

This (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49220) would be much cheaper and easier then putting two engines in a car if you wanted 400HP.

agreed :werd:

BeatThisLXI

10-01-2006, 07:24 PM

True. But didn't he mod the LIVING HELL out of that thing? I mean, performance injectors and stuff like that? Does that really count as a single massive power boost? Like adding that one turbo. A turbo is (basically) one mod that adds a dramatic amount of hp.

AccordEpicenter

10-01-2006, 08:27 PM

ive made approx 270hp on the stock 135000 mile motor reliably, until i lost my oil pump. Why not go with a single built turbo motor and go faster than 2 200hp engines?

Hash_man_Se_i

10-01-2006, 09:07 PM

There have been multiple cars with two engines, I have seen a carrado, a tiburon, an audi TT and some others cars with dual engines. As for teh first question here is the new bolt on mod

There is a guy here in Calgary building a twin engine del sol... its lookin pretty nuts so far.

This would be much cheaper and easier then putting two engines in a car if you wanted 400HP.

that car is my idol lol.

ChaseR

10-01-2006, 10:24 PM

How about the New Accord hybrid V6, that thing MOVES and the electric isnt really for economy it actually boost performance!

gp02a0083

10-01-2006, 10:28 PM

i think i read a article in superstreet a while back that they were working on a engine that is a 3 cyl engine that uses an crazy amount of boost from a turbo something like 100 psi basically the first cyclender isnt used for combustion its used to further compress the air (much like a overhead belt driven air compressor works , and then is fed into the two otehr cycl's but this engine is very i mean very low compression i think they mentioned u can start the engine by hand thats how little compression it has,

as far as induction goes , i am working on a new throttle body design that should aloow even more air flow with the same diameter TB , i mentioned this briefly at the last honda meet i was at and currently i have CAD drawings setup and im about 1/2 way done with a mock up unit

but as well i believe that combustions engines are gonna start phasing out , not in a loong time tho , these electric motors , if anyone is into slot cars or R/c cars are if anything faster than thier combustion counterparts, the only limit that they have is of course the power supply to feed them , but for now i believe that most car makers might start adding turbos to thier models b/c now fuel efficency is what sells cars and they can allways make a sport model of the same car. if anything i think the next thing will be some sort of turbo, supercharger hybrid

BeatThisLXI

10-01-2006, 11:35 PM

ive made approx 270hp on the stock 135000 mile motor reliably, until i lost my oil pump. Why not go with a single built turbo motor and go faster than 2 200hp engines?

Wow, 270, that amazes me every time I hear about it, lol. But neway, yeah, if that's better than that yeah, it is more intellegent to get a really nice turbo rather than the billion relatively weak ones out there. Probably a LOT cheaper. But I mean I'm just curious is there anything else out there that could do basically what the turbo does? And on that note, I saw some awesome replies from you guys. That electric thing, yeah I thought about that but didn't mention it because I know so little about it and at one point even thought that the electric part made hybrids slower. Since then I've seen the numbers on these things and they look GREAT. So yeah, you're 100% right as far as I'm concerned, that electric thing has INCREDIBLE potential. As far as you know does it have any limitations right now? Perhaps distance on a single charge, or the battery weight, or the amount of electricity necessary for everyone to have one charging overnight like that? Maybe this stuff is old news and fixed by now, like I said I know so little about it, enlighten me! And epicenter, chew on this: what about a twin engine with both turbocharged with a nice turbo setup? How awesome would that be. Oh and dual engine del sol? Crazy ripped! Keep it going guys, this is really incredible stuff.

Oh yeah and about your improvement ideas man, that stuff you're drawing up sounds AMAZING, you must be a genius dude. Especially for a non engineer.

2ndGenGuy

10-02-2006, 12:13 AM

You guys should check this out:

http://www.revetec.com/files/_images/cce2004_05.preview.jpg

http://www.revetec.com/

The engine has no crankshaft per se. Operates similarly to a boxer-style engine. Basically, the pistons are almost floating. There are no rods, and many fewer moving parts. The combustion pushes the piston down which pushes a big cam instead of turning a crank. This means that the optimal firing time can be advanced incredibly. Which will cause combustion at a higher compression state. I guess these engines are torquey as hell.

That's how I understand it anyways...

Also we have the hydraulically-actuated, electronically-controlled valve train. Basically, instead of a camshaft and a rocker pushing on each valve, you have a hydraulic actuator on each valve. The computer controls when each valve opens and closes indepentantly. Basically you have PERFECT cam timing at every single RPM. So you will basically never lose bottom end, and always have the best top end, and everything in-between. Duration and lift is constantly monitored in the computer, and is varied based on RPM, fuel, air and everything else in the ECU. Better emissions and more power.

Now imagine combining both technologies. THAT would be one fucking sick motor. Mega-power and super efficent at the same time. I think thats the way the combustion engine is going to go.

gp02a0083

10-02-2006, 10:01 AM

hmmm i was jsut looknig at that and thought of a boxter engine , however it seems to have the basic ideas of a rotery engine , i mean this idea is still using a laterial type engine layout insted of a epilipicital motion turning a single output shaft intresting idea i still would liek to see them totally redo the theroy behind a rotery engine , now we do have the tech for it , however that layout currently has 3 major problems 1 not a sufficent amout of torq compared to a boxter , inline or V type engine , they are pigs on oil (b/c they run on a simmilar principal of a 2 cycl engine) and thos dammed apex seals.

i will try to find the magazine that has what i mentioned earlier about the 3 cyl layout

gp02a0083

10-02-2006, 10:04 AM

and as far as the electric stuff goes , we do have the tech for smaller bateteries , but however to make them into practial use and cost efficency is not there , check out some of the land speed cars some of them go well over 200 mph

BeatThisLXI

10-03-2006, 08:47 PM

Thanks for the inputs guys, lot's of stuff to think about. You kids are brilliant.

mkymonkey

10-04-2006, 07:20 AM

lol...actually the average age in the forum is about 22-23 soooo...that would make us adults...i think lol

MessyHonda

10-04-2006, 07:56 AM

lol...actually the average age in the forum is about 22-23 soooo...that would make us adults...i think lol

you must of been really reallly bored to add up all the ages to find the average...can you also calculate the mean and range for us...lol jp with ya.

mkymonkey

10-04-2006, 08:06 AM

actually....no i cant, im not very good at math :(

gp02a0083

10-04-2006, 10:11 AM

heh me brilliant , hell no ive been called an intelligent idiot in some cases lol i mean i am book smart but im still lacking in a bit of common sence but im working on it lol

Tomisimo

10-04-2006, 10:56 AM

The Klemann has made supercharger(Kompressor) with 3 gears :) how cool is that?!?
Coz of that, when kompressor comes to the limit of how much it can push, it changes gear self. That way kompressor kapasety is enkrease by 300-400% AWSOME

snoopyloopy

10-04-2006, 02:05 PM

so basically like a supercharger with a transmission. sick.

DDRaptor

10-04-2006, 02:28 PM

that's what a kompressor mecerdes means. hell i did not know that.

snoopyloopy

10-04-2006, 02:43 PM

me either. i figured it had something to do with forced induction, but i didn't think about a supercharger.

gp02a0083

10-04-2006, 08:52 PM

for the most part thats the basis of a air shifter used on many drag motorcycles and cars

speedpenguin

10-06-2006, 03:38 AM

lol...actually the average age in the forum is about 22-23 soooo...that would make us adults...i think lol

you can't really call anyone on this forum an adult. We talk about cars all day, and in our spare time we talk about videogames.

A18A

10-06-2006, 05:39 AM

anyone ever heard of the X-engine? that one that 2ndGenGuy posted, to me it looked like a rotory crossed with a piston engine lol.. i understand it now..

http://peswiki.com/images/b/bd/Revtec_anim.gif
how do those 3point things spin different ways? that guy is a genius

http://www.revetec.com/files/_images/DSC_0004.preview.jpg
thats 1 hell of a big timing belt.

BeatThisLXI

10-06-2006, 01:33 PM

lol...actually the average age in the forum is about 22-23 soooo...that would make us adults...i think lol

Yeah, I realize that, lol. Just a figure of speech. Ex.: kids, dudes, guys, freaks, hondakidz, gearheads, tunernuts, etc. You know just stuff to call ppl as a whole.

DDRaptor

10-07-2006, 12:13 AM

A18A

10-07-2006, 02:26 AM

would'nt that X engine be a cross between a rotary and a boxer, caus ethe pistons are flat. just my 2cents, i'm still waiting to get a paycheck and buy a spare a20, so that way i still have a ride to work, cause im' sure kill something.
its like 2 V engines, just 1 V is upside down and makes it look like a X, it must be hella tight for space, i havnt seen a pic of 1 yet, but i dont know how they will make it so the oil stays in the crank area and not fall into the bottom cylinders :S well thats what i think a X-engine is anyways

the only pic i can find:
http://www.henryfordestate.org/powerfiles/Xengine.jpg

what the fcuk?
http://www.cowley.edu/aviation/album/images/b2xengine.jpg

DDRaptor

10-07-2006, 08:01 AM

dude that's a Prop engine for a plane, looks like a 12 or 16 cylinder engine.

89T

10-27-2006, 06:19 AM

snoopyloopy

10-27-2006, 07:09 AM

hmm....i've kinda had an idea like that to run a tt set-up kinda like that. but not as advanced as that one is. i can only imagine what the scene will be like when people start putting those on civics and evos.

89T

10-27-2006, 08:06 AM

you and i both.....
i had it all drawn up! then i picked up an hci mag yesterday and there it was.:Owned:
i have a couple of turbos???:naughty:

Tomisimo

10-27-2006, 02:56 PM

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/8921/2stagecc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2906/imgr2s1wp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us) http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3243/imgr2s2ji3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
bmw is already using this 2 stage turbo setup...
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2497/bwtspicturepassenger293wx6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/products/r2s.asp

You mean BiTurbo? not a stage2. a smalor turbo charges a BIG turbo. that way you get extra pust... The BMW get it from Mercedes, Mercedes have a SL65 AMG with BiTurbo wich get it 1000Nm at 600-700BHP dont remember aqurate. AMG must brake down the motor coz of aktual capasety was about 1400Nm, they couldent find a gear box that cud handle so much torque.

Tomisimo

10-27-2006, 03:01 PM

You mean BiTurbo? not a stage2. a smalor turbo charges a BIG turbo. that way you get extra pust... The BMW get it from Mercedes, Mercedes have a SL65 AMG with BiTurbo wich get it 1000Nm at 600-700BHP dont remember aqurate. AMG must brake down the motor coz of aktual capasety was about 1400Nm, they couldent find a gear box that cud handle so much torque.
edit : it stands there in black on white TWO Stage - not stage two. it make alot of sence

Tomisimo

10-27-2006, 03:10 PM

that's what a kompressor mecerdes means. hell i did not know that.

The thing is that Mercedes was desapointed in superchargers in theres performance cars like SL, SLK, CLK and CL models. Coz kompressor take power from a motor to ran, but Turbo dosent. Kompressor works fine on low RPM and gradualy los it power with enkrised RPM. Coz wheel that terns skruw in a kompressor riches max capasety. Becouse of that Klemman had to come up with a radikal solution. the ansver was kompressor with gearbox.

89T

10-27-2006, 04:33 PM

edit : it stands there in black on white TWO Stage - not stage two. it make alot of sence
thanks for the edit...

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/products/r2s.asp
this is the link i got the info from...
borgwarner is comming out with an aftermatket turbo line called airwerks...they are supposed to be the shitt!

DDRaptor

11-04-2006, 11:07 PM

Hey What about the Electric superchargers i'm hearing very good things and i'm seriously thinking about it, i know it will probally not make more than 20-25hp at most but, i guess it's something considering it's less than $200

MessyHonda

11-04-2006, 11:20 PM

DDRaptor

11-05-2006, 12:34 AM

gah your right. i love the power band of my engine but alot of the mods don't pertain to me sometimes.

time to start saving up for that weber.

SephirXV

12-27-2006, 01:17 PM

Although it's not a semi-bolt on like a tc/sc, as far as the next big thing in go fast components, I think that the Continuosly Variable Tranny will start to make a big difference in the way go-fast cars are made.

For those of you not familiar, a CVT is a tranny without gears, but alters it's gear ratio in a perfectly smooth transition. Think of it as the volume on an analog radio. Wikipedia has a good article on the CVT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission).

Since people started racing cars, it has all been about getting a good power curve, and using a tranny with gear ratios sized appropriately to that curve. However, a CVT can find a perfect ratio to keep the engine at it's peak power regardless of the speed of the vehicle. For a race, you floor it, and a control module waits for the engine to reach it's peak power RPM, then alters the gear ratio to keep the engine there. The effect is a car that pulls forever, or at least to the limits of the engine.

Once you have a car that spends most of it's time at one or two different engine speeds (one for power, one for economy), you stop spending all your time tuning a car to a curve and instead focus on a very narrow band, you can tune the entire car to that same band and you are basically done. It's an automatic, but really it only uses the clutch at a complete stop (or coasting), so the tranny is actually far simpler then even our manual trannys.