brakes failed again, second time

[lostforawhile]

ok this is getting stupid. I just rebuilt the rear brakes,the adjuster on the right side was broke,causing the left shoe to wear out. I replaced the adjusters,all new hardware,new shoes,and also replaced the wheel cylinders. they were leaking,at only two years old. back brakes are now fine. went ahead and also replaced the rear flex hoses due to age. put new calipers on the front,the old ones,the slides were worn out and they rattled really bad,just old and tired. I bled the system out,not only bled,but flushed a quart of fluid through the system to flush it. bled them out,brake pedal was fine,was coming home yesterday,had to slam on the brakes,no brakes!! had to swerve into the other lane. pumped the brakes were fine. went home checked for leaks,none found,bled the system again!! full of air this time,bled it out,brakes were fine. pulled into walmart,brakes fine, pulled into a parking space,stepped on the brakes no brakes!! had to yank the parking brake to stop from slamming into a preludes rear end. pumped the brakes they are fine!! WTF is going on here? only thing i can think of is master cyl. it's only two years old and the guy at nappa thinks I don't know what I'm talking aboout and throwing money at parts for nothing. so far all I've replaced were items that were worn out and should have been replaced years ago. also I'm not losing any fluid.

[carotman]

Hmmm sure sould like the master cyl is dead. If it randomly goes to the floor and pumping the brakes give you some pressure, the master cyl is shot :(

I know it's 2 years old but reman units can fail if cheapo parts are used in the process.

[lostforawhile]

I agree I sure hate to go through all this crap again. the guy at Nappa just couldn't believe it had actually failed. :gun: all the other parts needed to be replaced again anyway for the sake of safety. there is a lot of extra crap in the way of my master cyl and it's really hard to get to. just had to paint it purple though.

[2ndGenGuy]

I had this problem while rebuilding the brake system on my friend's Porsche. Turns out we had the brake calipers on the wrong side, so they were upside down. This would cause the brakes to not bleed properly. They look the same both ways. I'm fairly sure the brakes are close to symmetrical on the Accords too, but I would have to look at mine when I get home. They will still bracket on and fit just fine on the wrong side, so is that a possibility?

[lostforawhile]

I had this problem while rebuilding the brake system on my friend's Porsche. Turns out we had the brake calipers on the wrong side, so they were upside down. This would cause the brakes to not bleed properly. They look the same both ways. I'm fairly sure the brakes are close to symmetrical on the Accords too, but I would have to look at mine when I get home. They will still bracket on and fit just fine on the wrong side, so is that a possibility?
no they can't be installed upside down,one of the sliders fits the bolt,the other one fits on the caliper bracket pin. also they have a l or r in the number stamped on the caliper. and the numbers and letters would be upside down. they bled out fine,have plenty of brake pedal most of the time,it just randomly fails. the master cyl. has a primary and secondary piston,one pushes on the other,that way if one fails the other one slides forward and pushes on the other. this would account for the fact that the pedal goes to the floor,then returns with a pump. the piston has to slide forward. I'm thinking the seal on the primary piston has failed and fluid is going around it,vs. creating pressure.

[AccordEpicenter]

I agree with the master cyl assesment. How much were the napa ones? a new honda one is 140 at majestic honda \
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Accord&catcgry2=1987&catcgry3=3DR+LXI&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=MASTER+CYLINDER

[MessyHonda]

sounds like the master cyl....when i got my car the pedal would go to the floor...so i got some drilled and sloted rotors and AEM pads....lubed the calipers since they looks rusted...and now it works fine...if you press your pedal like in a stop...does it go down slowly?

[w261w261]

There's nothing quite like that feeling when the brake pedal slams to the floor and you're going, oh, 40 mph or so. Years ago, I had a '57 Chev convertible, and I took it to Midas for a new muffler. When I picked it up, I had my GF drive it behind me while I was up in front. When I stopped at a cash machine, she jumped out and said the brakes were acting weird, and I was going to drive it home. I get in and when I put on the brakes I noticed I had to pump them to get them to work. Wondering what was the problem, I continued towards home, pumping each time. What was happening, was that the Midas guy had nicked the brake line with his torch when cutting off the old exhaust, and each time I put on the brakes a little bit of fluid squirted out the wound. No double master cylinder here...remember, it was a '57.

About a mile from home, I started to slow for a 4 way stop from about 45 mph. Push, push, BANG! Brake pedal goes to floor, and I rocket through the intersection at about 40, then down a slight incline, trying to stop with the pitiful hand brake. Took me a couple of hundred yards. No traffic, thank god. I went back to Midas with some choice words for the idiot that could have killed me. I should probably have stopped the car immediately when I noticed something different, but didn't. Luck was with me that day.

[88Accord-DX]

Replaced the brake booster yet? Trying to figure what all you have replaced in the brake system.

But from what you saying, sounds like the master cylinder is loosing some pressure past something in there as your talking about.

[lostforawhile]

Replaced the brake booster yet? Trying to figure what all you have replaced in the brake system.
But from what you saying, sounds like the master cylinder is loosing some pressure past something in there as your talking about. na it's not a booster problem,if the booster fails you will still have a brake pedal,it just takes more effort to stop. whats happening here is he pedal drops all the way to the floor. oh the first time it failed I was on 133 here doing about seventy in traffic when I went to slam on the brakes I had none.

[A18A]

na it's not a booster problem,if the booster fails you will still have a brake pedal,it just takes more effort to stop. whats happening here is he pedal drops all the way to the floor. oh the first time it failed I was on 133 here doing about seventy in traffic when I went to slam on the brakes I had none.
so how did you stop?

[MessyHonda]

so how did you stop?

if you find your self in a pitch like that...you can downshift...it might rev the shit out of the engine or pull the e-brake....OOOOOR mayboth.....but that is if you have time...or else you are going to be on some one bumper.

[gp02a0083]

tim, try the master cyclender, and also are u gravity or vaccume bleeding the system ? if u got everything bled out of the system and new fluid is replaced i would have to agree with the others that its the MC if that doesnt work you have replaced about every part on the braking system so then it would be the booster

[lostforawhile]

so how did you stop?
swerved into the turn lane and gradually used the ebrake to slow down,then of course it was fine again.

[Blkblurr]

How are you getting air into the system? Got to be leak somewhere. If the master cylinder is bad you should not be getting air into your system. My guess is you have two problems. Bad master cylinder and a leak somewhare.

[lostforawhile]

How are you getting air into the system? Got to be leak somewhere. If the master cylinder is bad you should not be getting air into your system. My guess is you have two problems. Bad master cylinder and a leak somewhare.
well I can't find any kind of leaks,and the pedal is hard like it should be,it just randomly drops to the floor,am putting in a new master cyl right now.

[w261w261]

Rereading your posts, it looks like both times the brakes failed, you hit them very hard. Could it be that they work with light to moderate pressure, and only when you stomp on them they fail? I think it's time for a new MC. And I also think you should be real careful where you drive until you get on top of this. You've been pretty lucky on these first two failures, the next time maybe you won't be.

[lostforawhile]

Rereading your posts, it looks like both times the brakes failed, you hit them very hard. Could it be that they work with light to moderate pressure, and only when you stomp on them they fail? I think it's time for a new MC. And I also think you should be real careful where you drive until you get on top of this. You've been pretty lucky on these first two failures, the next time maybe you won't be.oh it's sitting in my garage torn apart right now,the rear seal blew out :gun: dumping a bunch of fluid into my booster ruining it also.:rant: :rant: :rant: thats where the air came, from the master cyl was sucking up air. this also explains why the car has been acting up the last few days,giant vaccume leak. the booster still worked but was leaking. it's four bolts from under the dash that hold the booster right? after the clevis pin is removed? also does anyone remember if can come down instead of going up? there is a lo of non factory fuel stuff in the way.

[88Accord-DX]

I don't think pulling the brake booster out the bottom is worth even trying to attempt. Most brake booster I've pulled have a pretty long shaft on them & had to remove lots of crap in the way to have enough room to get it out..

[lostforawhile]

well it's even worse coming out the top,I was hoping someone had removed one of these and knew if it would pull out and go straight down .

[88Accord-DX]

Give it a shot & let us know. You'll need to pull the axle out.

[88Accord-DX]

Dp

[lostforawhile]

crap it's coming up then. that means all those hard lines behind the carb need to come out. it's going to be a long day tomorrow. I guess I'll put my pedals in at the same time. might as well.

[lostforawhile]

ok got the new booster from nappa this morning, went to put vaccume to it to set the pushrod length. the dam thing leaks like a sieve,right out of the box. you can blow air into the vaccume port and it blows right back out the center. what a piece of shit. of course they close at noon. kind of like the old west,they roll the streets up here at 12. so I have to put the old one back in and use my new master cyl. with a damaged booster. I'm highly pissed right now. If I end up scratching my purple paint on the master,I'll be even more pissed.

[MessyHonda]

ok got the new booster from nappa this morning, went to put vaccume to it to set the pushrod length. the dam thing leaks like a sieve,right out of the box. you can blow air into the vaccume port and it blows right back out the center. what a piece of shit. of course they close at noon. kind of like the old west,they roll the streets up here at 12. so I have to put the old one back in and use my new master cyl. with a damaged booster. I'm highly pissed right now. If I end up scratching my purple paint on the master,I'll be even more pissed.

maybe its time to get honda genuine.:dunno:

[lostforawhile]

maybe its time to get honda genuine.:dunno:ever price a new honda booster? anyway Nappa is supposed to have good brake parts,starting to wonder about that. how did they send out a brake booster that doesn't hold vaccume? I guess they never heard of quality control. ever hear of testing something before shipping it to the customer? i'm tempeted to say screw Nappa and drive with the bad booster until Oreilys opens up here. if their master cyl hadn't failed after two years I wouldn't be having this problem. :thumbdn:

[MessyHonda]

ever price a new honda booster? anyway Nappa is supposed to have good brake parts,starting to wonder about that. how did they send out a brake booster that doesn't hold vaccume? I guess they never heard of quality control. ever hear of testing something before shipping it to the customer? i'm tempeted to say screw Nappa and drive with the bad booster until Oreilys opens up here. if their master cyl hadn't failed after two years I wouldn't be having this problem. :thumbdn:

well im not sure how much a new booster would cost...but i get discounts on genuine honda parts so this type of stuff does not happen...Like you said Tim the brakes are the first thing to check on a car. most of us dont check.i would talk to the napa dudes. and see wuts up.

[RamThis]

I got a new master cylinder from O'reillys about six months ago for about 75 bucks. Installed it and didnt have a problem after that. For a while I had a problem of the brakes quickly bleeding down, the pedal falling to the floor, and the car would take off again, so up with the pedal, and back down, and it would work again, until it bled down. Got to the point I'd have to put the car in Neutral and use the hand brake to hold the car still at a stop light.

If you have a way to wait until Monday, just wait and get that new brake booster. And check it before you leave the store with it lol.

[lostforawhile]

I got a new master cylinder from O'reillys about six months ago for about 75 bucks. Installed it and didnt have a problem after that. For a while I had a problem of the brakes quickly bleeding down, the pedal falling to the floor, and the car would take off again, so up with the pedal, and back down, and it would work again, until it bled down. Got to the point I'd have to put the car in Neutral and use the hand brake to hold the car still at a stop light.
If you have a way to wait until Monday, just wait and get that new brake booster. And check it before you leave the store with it lol.well I put the new master cyl on and the brakes are fine for now,the problem is it took a crap into the booster,so the boosters life is very limited as of now. it's working but for how long. this booster from nappa actually has corrosion pits all over it,it looks like it came from a junkyard and it was painted over with cheap black paint. I think I'm going to get my money back and get one from somewhere else. I mean both wheel cyls. failed in the back,and the master cyl both failed at the same time. and they were both bought at Nappa two years ago. then the Booster from them is D.O.A.

[RamThis]

Odd, I thought NAPA parts were supposed to be better quality than the other crappy Awful Zone and O'screwme's parts. Guess even NAPA parts are getting cheap now, only way to get good quality parts is to pony up the dough and go to the stealership.

[88Accord-DX]

See if O'Reillys can get a new one. Sometimes they can get new parts on certain applications. I have to aggree, might have to pony up the loot for a new one at the stealership. That would suck, cause I know that isn't going to be cheap.

[lostforawhile]

went to take the booster back,somehow they think I'm doing something wrong. they call the place that rebuilds the boosters and he says you can't pull a vaccume on an unloaded booster with a mitivac. horseshit!! I pulled one on the factory one when it was out. thats the standard repair procedure for replacing a booster,you have to pull 20 inches of mecury on the booster,then you measure the distance between the end of the pushrod and the flange where the master cyl. mounts. then you measure the distance between the master cyl flange and the center of the piston. subtract the two measurments and thats the pushrod clearance. it needs to be between .000 and .016 . thats bad when the guy rebuilding the booster doesn't even know that. it even shows in the instructions with the freakin booster to pull the vaccume with a mitivac. what a bunch of idiots.

[hotdoghogie]

dude never go with anything but Honda genuin unless its rotors... or aftermarket performance stuf... theres a reason there cheaper... napa sucks anyways... i honestly think Oriellys is just as good as they are