Drivers window relays not working

[miataspeed]

Hey, I just bought an 88 accord LX for $500 as a winter beater. The drivers front power window doesn't work. I took it all apart and the problem is the two large white relays in the united technologies box. I broke em open and checked em out, and I dont see anything obviously wrong. Thing is, they trip, but it doesn't do anything. If I push them closed with my finger 1 out of 30 times they will work and make the window go up or down. But NEVER when the switch is used, they just go "ding". What should I do? Can I get the same relays or something close enough to fit in the board? Dealer price? Thanks for the help.

[Jasonf860]

i might have a spare UT box laying around. I swapped it for a Mitsuba controller when I did my auto up. I'll look tonight.

[miataspeed]

Is the mitsuba controller a better bet for a working unit? My local junkyard has 12 accords, 11 are the U.S. made ones, and one is a Japanese made one. Would the Japanese one have the mitusba box? I assume all of the boxes in the others are shot, I bought 3 and all of them were bad...so I gave up. And thanks for the offer, would help me out tons.

[w261w261]

I've had several '67 Lincoln convertibles, and they have a couple dozen relays to control stuff, so I got good at fixing them. Almost all the time when a relay fails the contact points are dirty. File them down and you're back in business. That said, the 40 year old FoMoCo relays are giants compared to the Honda window relays inside that box. When mine failed I bought a new one from the dealer (ouch!...over $100 as I remember). I then took my old box apart and looked at the coils and points. I remember thinking that in a pinch (meaning some day when the OEM stock is gone and no one is remanufacturing them) the old relays will have to be resuscitated. It can be done, but they are kind of small. If you have some time, take one of the ones you bought and experiment with a piece of emery paper on the contact points. If you can get to the relay coils without doing collateral damage, I'm sure you'll be back in business. My thought at the time I looked at mine was that a Dremel tool could be used to gently cut away the covers on the relays...I just ripped them off because I didn't care.

[w261w261]

Another thought...without looking at the window circuit diagram, I would think that it would be a simple fix to just bypass the relay box altogether. It's not the end of the world to be without the auto drop.

[Jasonf860]

I don't know what controller is better, but the UT one doesn't have the 6th pin for the auto up feature so you must have a mitsuba one for that. I had the UT one in my car and when i did the auto up, had to switch after running every test there is in the shop manula and determining that it was the controller. I didn't get a chance to check if i still have the UT one, but i'm guessing I do since I never toss anything. I will definitly check tomorrow. My guess that if you bought 3 and tried them all, then you have a problem elsewhere and it's not the controller. I think the odds of 4 being bad are slim to none. In case you don't know all the tests, go here... http://http://www.pauldesign.ru/honda/shopmanual.html Download the manual and in the body electrical section 25-30 is all the tests for the windows.

[miataspeed]

Well I know for sure its the box. I rewired the ground because it was all corroded. Then I cleaned every contact and checked for continuity. When I use the window switches the relays tick, but nothing happens. If I grab the relay (I removed the white plastic cover to expose the workings) and press it closed, the window will go up and down like normal. Voltage when relay is opened is 0, when closed, 0. Voltage to the board is 0 when window switch is open, 12 when closed. I'm not sure which terminals to test to figure out of the voltage is missing in the board or the relay, but either way they arent tripping. Thanks for the help, I want to figure this out.

[w261w261]

When you say you cleaned the "contacts," do you mean the connector contacts or the contacts in the window switch? If the window switch is dirty or corroded, you can have a situation where it will pass 12v on a test, but will not pass enough current to activate the relay coil. Try shorting across the window switch and see if the relay coil goes down stronger. I still think it sounds like the relay contact points though.

[miataspeed]

I cleaned EVERY contact. I sanded the metal pins in the plastic connectors, I took the switch apart and cleaned all contacts. They were not corroded or dirty, I just polished them up with sandpaper. I made a new ground wire, sanded the motor ground and connected as it was. I took the motor apart and polished the motor and brushes. I added a bit of grease to the tip and screw of the motor and reassembled. After all of this, I get the same thing. Push the switch and the relay ticks, but nothing happens. I push the switch, let the relay tick then push it closed further with my finger and it works like a charm. Is there a replacement relay I can wire in or is the board only spaced for this particular relay? Any help would be awsome.

[w261w261]

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Accord&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=4DR+LXI&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=CONTROLLER+%281%29

Well, there's this solution, but the discounted price from Majestic Honda is $117.00.

As I recall when I tore my old controller box apart, the two relays inside each had their own little covers on them. How did you get those covers off? I remember that they were glued in place.

I'm sure there are replacement relays out there, but how much time and effort it would take to find them, get them, fit them into the box....way too much, IMO. Better to just wire the controller out of the circuit and make the drivers door like the rest.

[miataspeed]

To get the covers off I used a dremel tool and a pair of needle nose pliers. Was carefull and was easy.

I think the best way is to just remove the box. Anyone have a diagram of how to wire it? Thanks alot, I'll check it out tommorow and see if I can't figure it out.

[1ajs]

why not just make a new one...

[Jasonf860]

sorry, i looked tonight, must have tossed my UT controller or at least I can't find it.

[miataspeed]

Thanks anyway. I would make a new one, but I can't seem to find a relay that would fit the board. I'm just going to bypass it now that I know I can. It shouldn't be too hard if I can find the wiring diagram.

[w261w261]

Eliminating the box isn't as easy as I thought. I looked through the schematics last night, and the problem is that the driver's window switch is different than the switches for the other 3 windows, in that the other window switches use both the "local" switch and the driver's switch (for that window) to make the ground work as the current flows in both directions through the motor. It's kind of like a couple of 3-way switches in your house. The driver's window switch, being only one, uses the controller box to help reverse current flow. And the internals of the driver's window switch are also slightly, but significantly different.

At first I thought you could use one of the other driver's switches, and tap into the wires going to it, essentially "borrowing" the grounding circuitry. Then I realized that by doing that, every time you tried to, say, drop the passenger's window from the driver's switch, it would also open the driver's window. Oops.

At the moment I'm out of ideas. Will think about it some more.

[miataspeed]

Well even if I could get it to do that I would be happy. I Just want my window to go down! I worked on bypassing the box, no luck. On the switch there is 4 wires, black/yellow, white/yellow, red/green and black/green. There are then 5 wires at the plug, where did the extra wire come from? Then it turns back into 4 after the relay box. The colors change, making it hard to figure out what does what. I'm starting to hate power windows.

[Jasonf860]

Well even if I could get it to do that I would be happy. I Just want my window to go down! I worked on bypassing the box, no luck. On the switch there is 4 wires, black/yellow, white/yellow, red/green and black/green. There are then 5 wires at the plug, where did the extra wire come from? Then it turns back into 4 after the relay box. The colors change, making it hard to figure out what does what. I'm starting to hate power windows.
Hmm, the extra wire is for the Auto down feature. This is also listed in the link to the shop manual I posted earlier.

[w261w261]

OK, here's what I think you have to do. First, you can't use the driver's window switch by itself, w/o the controller. When you get the schematics I'm going to email to you, you can see how, in the driver's door, the controller provides the grounding circuit. In the passenger doors, the circuit goes to ground through the respective window switch in the driver's master switch. So you'll need to get one of the switches that go into the passenger doors. They're all the same, although different color wires go to them. These switches have 5 wires coming from them also.

In the driver's door, the white/yellow is the supply 12v to the switch. Coming out of the controller and going down to the window motor, the red/yellow is the motor up, and the red/blue is the motor down wire.

The passenger door window switches have some different colors of their five wires. I'm going to refer to those wires as nos. 1-5. You are going to connect the white/yellow supply voltage in the driver's door to #1 on the (new) switch. #2 is going to be connected to the red/blue on the window motor. #3 is going to be connected to the red/yellow on the motor. #4 and #5 go to ground. The ground wires in the car are usually black.

Depending on where you pull your switch from, here are the colors:

Right Front: #1 is blue/black
#2 is blue/red
#3 is blue/white
#4 and #5 are blue/yellow and blue/green

Rears: #1 is yellow/black
#2 is blue/red
#3 is blue/white
#4 and #5 are yellow and yellow/green

Hook up the wires, plug in the switch, and you should be good to go.