I need a new shocks… do I need new springs? KYB and H&R okay?

[gsus]

All right guys, I’m doing a bit more work to my DD/winter car this year. It’s been in much need of a new suspension since I got it last year. I’m 99% sure I’m on the stock suspension from 1989, and my car is just over 180k miles. Now I’m not looking to ‘hook my car up’ with a stiff racing suspension for the autocross, track, etc, I just want a nicer riding suspension with as much reduced roll as possible for daily driving… which I’m hoping will cure the body roll I currently have to deal with. I’d go with OEM replacements but…
OEM: $349.99 (+S&H to me since I’m in IL)
I use partznet often for my OEM parts for my MR2 (but they sell HONDA, NISSAN & HYUNDAI parts too), and they hook it up with a discount and no sales tax for me since they are in PA. I’m not sure if there are other discount OEM places online here, but if you guys ever need a place try here (http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=214287)
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So from the looks of it, it’d be cheaper and it would suit my needs more to go with aftermarket shocks.
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I can get my shocks/struts from Autozone for about $147.99 ($36.99ea), GABRIEL ULTRA brand. But I’m guessing those are pretty much OEM replacement, with no sort of extra stiffness from stock.
It’s only about $20-30 more for me to get the KYB shocks. So I’m probably just going to get those, but I’m wondering if I need to replace my 180k mile springs when I do my shocks? Would it [u]not[/] be wise to get some H&R springs to replace the OEM springs? From what I gather they have a moderate(?) drop and are only slightly stiffer than stock. If it's a bad idea then i'll just get OEM springs, if need be that is.
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TIA

[w261w261]

One of the (few) criticisms of the 3G Accord when it first came out was that it had (too) soft springs and shocks. If you look at how the car sits you can get an idea if the springs are going....is the ride height the same side to side and front to back? If you don't care about dropping it, then a better, slightly stiffer set of shocks would probably do you well. But if you are thinking of replacing the springs, and probably lowering the car at the same time, then you gotta be careful. There's many threads on this site on the topic.

Forgetting for a moment the visual aspects of lowering the suspension, the practical benefits of it are to lower the center of gravity of the car. The people that are dropping it more than an inch or an inch and a half are doing it for the look, IMO. Nothing is completely free, and when you drop a car that far you are also reducing the suspension travel, which means you have to have really stiff shocks because you don't have much distance for the shocks to work on. I lowered mine 1" with Eibach springs. They are "progressive," meaning that the more they're compressed, the more they resist further compression.

If a spring is stiffer than original, then the shock has to be appropriately stiff too. If it's not, then one of two things will happen: the ride will either be too stiff, banging over bumps and making the car ride really rough, or the evil twin, not stiff enough, where you get the pogo-stick effect. Either one sucks, and that's one reason that the Koni Reds are so popular...they're adjustable. And unfortunately, they're also out of production.

All this was unknown to me when I ordered the Eibach Pro-kits and a set of Bilsteins. I paid a few hundred in labor to have each corner of the car refitted with the new springs/shocks, and a lot of new bushings. It was with much anticipation that I climbed in and headed for the road, which quickly turned to disappointment when I felt the front end bouncy-bounce over the first bump. Whatthefuckwasthis!? What it was, was the Bilsteins (which were calibrated for a stock spring rate) being overpowered by the stiffer springs. Shit! And the Bilsteins are not adjustable. What you get is what you get. Eventually, I would have probably have "blown" the shocks out, which is what happens if they are over-matched by the spring rates. Charming.

To buy me some relief, I took out the front seat and tied the springs together with wire, which helped some. I felt like I was a secondary launch from the seat, after the front end pitched up and down. But the problem remained.

Shocks work in two directions of course, compression and rebound. Mine needed help in each. I called up Bilstein and spoke to Jack French, "the man." He said that what I needed to do was to revalve them to a higher value, e.g. make them stiffer. BTW, this was for the fronts only. The rears were OK, or at least you didn't notice the rears with the fronts bouncing around so much. But...I couldn't just take off the shocks and send them off, because I needed to drive the car. Soooooo, I ordered another pair, revalved to 300 rebound, 100 lbs compression, a pretty big change over stock. I wait 3 or 4 weeks. New shocks come in, I pay another charge to get them installed.....and....they're close, but Not... Quite... Right. When the shock compresses on a bump, it should rebound back without "overshooting." I had gotten rid of most of it, but they still had this annoying "go back too far" action. I pick up the phone for another consult with Jack, and we decide to go for 330/110. I send off my first pair to CA, and wait another month. Back they come, another labor charge to put them in....and BINGO! Perfection! High speed sweepers are sublime. Bumps around town are firm, but not hard. I think it's just right, and I really enjoy driving the car. But look what it took, both in time and money, to get there. If I could have just adjusted the shocks while they were mounted, I could have saved a lot.

And this was just for the Eibach springs. Different springs have different rates. Moral of the story...read the posts here, and don't try to reinvent the wheel. If you miss by a little, I'd miss by making the shocks too stiff, because that pogo-stick shit is plenty annoying. I am, however, really happy (REALLY HAPPY) that I got it right, finally. The car drives so well. Maybe if I had to do it over I'd go for 1 1/2 inches on the drop, because there's still a lot of space in the wheel wells, but that's nit-picking. I'm a happy camper, if a poor one. Good luck.

[H22AccordSE-IV]

What's up, w261w261?
I just got a set of Bilstein "Heavy Duty" struts and Ground Control coil overs w/Eibach springs installed a couple months ago. My old suspension was definitely gone, and I wanted a lower stance, so I dropped the car about 1.5 to 2 inches with the Ground Control kit. I'm gonna need some help here, please. You seem like you got your shit down, and I think I'm gonna have to do the same thing you did and send my struts back to Bilstein. Did you get the "Touring Class" struts (twin-tube) or the "Heavy Duty" (mono-tube) struts? Do you know what the Heavy Duty's are valved at, and what the spring rate is for your Eibachs?

Help's appreciated,

G.

[MessyHonda]

i heard Tokico blues are a lil better than the kyb... but konis are one of the best shock you can get for our car...if you can find them...even used since they have lifetime warranty

[w261w261]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48187

This thread talks about the revalved Bilsteins, etc. I made a mistake on my earlier post...I got them revalved the second time to 340/110, not 330. The referenced thread says that the factory unaltered Bilstein specs are 46 compression, 195 rebound. I have the HD Bilsteins, btw.

I have the Eibach Pro-kits. I called Eibach twice, and left a message asking about the spring rates. Both times they never called back. But there is a thread here that has some data:

[F: 1.44, 304 lb/in; R: 0.83, 97 lb/in.] I interpreted this to mean that the Eibach front spring rates are 1.44 more than stock, and the Eibach rate is 304 lb/in. Note that the rear is less than the stock rate. Weird. Actually, I think the rears could be a higher rate, but it's kind of splitting hairs compared to the fronts. Get the fronts right, and the rears are no biggie. There was an asterisk on this data, saying that the way Eibach computes their rates is somehow different than other people. ?? Also, the spring is progressive, so I don't know whether the stated rate is at max or min compression, or an average.

[AZmike]

The bottom line is no one really knows what the Eibach rates are.

[gsus]

thanks for the reply w261w261. I honestly dont really care to lower my car, and from the searches that i've done, it's not cheap to do so anyhow. All I really want to do is reduce all the body roll i have right now. As for the current stance of the car... well it all looks even from every corner. I'm definitely going to get either the KYB's or Tokicos, but i may just get some lower mileage OEM spring to replace my high mileage ones.

One question that crossed my mind was how the SE-i springs compared to the LX-i springs... are they the same?

[AZmike]

The LXi and SEi springs are the same. A stiffer set of anti roll bars would make a big reduction in body roll.

What is wrong with your current springs?

[gsus]

The LXi and SEi springs are the same. A stiffer set of anti roll bars would make a big reduction in body roll.

What is wrong with your current springs?

Anti-roll bars = Sway bars? If so, then I’ll look into those.

As for the springs, there is nothing wrong with them visually from what I can tell at least, except for the high mileage… which makes me think that they would be ‘softer’ than newer and/or lower mileage springs. Maybe my thoughts are wrong?

[MessyHonda]

The bottom line is no one really knows what the Eibach rates are.

damn it...hope they still ride good with tokicos

[AZmike]

Unless the spring is rusty, broken, or not maintaining close to stock ride height then I'd say there is no reason to replace it. The spring should not change rate unless it is damaged.

[L3G10N]

i have a set of Selex Tuning SR-40 in hand ready to go!
They are 130$/shock. If you're not 100% happy with your buy, they can be readjusted for your own spec and worst case scenario, you can get refound if you think they don't worth the price.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54771

[w261w261]

I did look at the Selex web site, and I assume from their location and their somewhat fractured English, that they are French speakers. A spellchecker applied to the English side of their site would make me feel more comfortable with this small company.

The "40%" number quoted in the posts I don't think is such a big increase. The original compression/rebound values of the Accord OEM is supposedly 46/195, and my revalved Bilsteins are 110/340. That's a whole lot more than +40% (240% and 74%), and I don't think I would bother with less.

I guess we need that first guy to step up and put them on. In this case, even if I didn't have my suspension sorted out, that first guy wouldn't be me.

[H22AccordSE-IV]

Thanks for the help w261. One more question: How much of a drop did the Eibach springs give you and did this significantly effect the re-valving of your shocks/struts? Make that 2 questions.

G.

[w261w261]

I have a 1" drop. Since I put the Bilsteins and Eibachs on at the same time, I have no way to absolutely answer the question. However, I assume that what is important is the spring rate, not the shorter overall length.

[MessyHonda]

I have a 1" drop. Since I put the Bilsteins and Eibachs on at the same time, I have no way to absolutely answer the question. However, I assume that what is important is the spring rate, not the shorter overall length.

you got pics of the drop...im geting the 1 inch drop eibachs soon.