Open-Loop Cam Test Dyno Results

[Justanothermike]

*****1/25/09This car is for sale again. This time for sure or will be sold on craigslist locally. [email protected]
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53419

I know some of you guys have been waiting for this for a while and i personally have been too. So we finally dynoed the rebuilt motor and did a little cam test as well. We dynoed our race cam first and then our Mild 256/270 cam. Run#9 is the Race cam and #13 is the 256/270. The race cam topped out higher and torque didn't die off as fast, but the mild cam killed it in the bottom end. Torque was a good 10lbs/ft higher all over with the mild cam. Those of you who were fortunate to get ur hands on our 256/270 cam got an excellent cam which passes CA smog as well!

A20a3
Standard Ph4 1mm overbore pistons
Stock Rods ARP rod bolts
83.7mmx91mm
Stock valves/springs/retainers
Welded Combustion chambers, P&P head (around 10.5:1 CR)
P&P B16a intake manifold
63mm overbored LS TB
8lbs custom aluminum flywheel
Custom aluminum underdrive crank pulley
256/270 cam or race 289 cam.
Golden Eagle Cam Gear
Obd 1 conversion
Chipped P75 Ecu
290cc Prelude OBD2 injectors
B&M fuel pressure regulator
MSD 7AL2, and blaster coil
DC sports Header
Straight pipe with 2.25 exhaust

The race cam
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/mrmike8300/1.jpg

The 256/270 cam
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/mrmike8300/2.jpg

The master mechanic at work
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/973351_qaike/dyno3.jpg

And there are some videos on youtube here:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=MrMike8300

i'll post some more pics of the engine while it was being rebuilt a little later since i think they got deleted from an older thread. There some here and yes this car is going to be for sale.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53419

[Busted_Blue]

nice mike!1

[ghettogeddy]

the numbers for The 256/270 cam seem to be way better then the race cam almost 10 more flb of torque

witch one feels faster to you

[snoopyloopy]

10 ft/lb of torque in a built motor. but what about us little folks running i/h/e? how would this cam compare to the delta 272 and colt tri-flow? and how will it hit the pocket?

[wprocomp]

awesome man great power from the A20

[ICEMAN707]

wow that's some nice power coming from a non-vtec honda engine. is that mild cam good for boost too? 250hp would be perfect for the street with around 210-ish ft/lbs of torque.

[MessyHonda]

wow that is hot....can i please see your car in person? im in san mateo.....

[Legend_master]

All motor A20 is pure sex. Nice build, and I bet that car pulled like a SOB?

[Justanothermike]

the numbers for The 256/270 cam seem to be way better then the race cam almost 10 more flb of torque

witch one feels faster to you


the mild cam is deffinately a better all around cam. With 130+lbs/ft of torque from 3K up u can take off from just about anywhere in the rev range. This cam has very useable power. :thumbup:

[rjudgey]

Are WHP figures? I'd say that your Race cam is causing a bottleneck in the engine trying to let too much air in and can't get the exhaust gas out quick enough, had same issues with a 285 degree camshaft i have which i've used in some of my engines, switched to the 272 degree and wham way more torque and loads of bhp at a lower rpm. I think if you seriously what some good extra power you need to be looking at some bigger valves, 33mm inlet valves and 37mm exhaust valves, and then maybe look at Eagle rods as stock ones tend to break at the neck with 180+bhp with and engine that revs 7k plus rpm with forged flatop pistons with custom 3 valve pocket reliefs in crown, then next phase ditch the plenum and switch to ITB's which should see you good for 200whp or very near to it as you have to have a CAT maybe 10hp less than what i can achieve. With the inlet and head opened up you should see a power band of 5-8.5krpm maybe upto 9k rpm depending on whats been done to your head.

Stock rods and bolts are fine upto 7.5k rpm use but should be replaced every 20k miles to make sure they don't go through the block!!

[bobafett]

Awesome number! Congrats to Mike and Daryl. What does this car run in the 1/4 mile?

[2ndGenGuy]

Sounds sooooo good!

Sorry to be a stupid noob, but what are PH4 pistons? I'm guessing that they're some sort of Integra pistons or pistons from another engine that fit... That's how you got the higher compression?

Maybe you could point me to a thread on this... I searched the site already to no avail... Thanks!

[88LXi68]

Wow...I am really impressed and very happy you guys are still playing with the Accord.

Congrats on the numbers!!

[bobafett]

I am pretty sure they welded the combustion chambers to increase compression. :)

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53419

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3553/a2030bt.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a2030bt.jpg)

[shepherd79]

very nice numbers. I do have to agree with rjudgey that on race cam the stock valves limit the power big time. just from that dyno run you can see that it can do a lot more.

i like the numbers for mild grind too. very impressive.

PS. i have to finish OBD1 conversion.

[Cheeseburger]

very nice, good to see u still have the accord! i wonder what kind of #'s it would put out on the track

[2ndGenGuy]

Welded the combustion chambers? So you mean that's not the shape of the stock A20 head? Only allowed enough room on the head for the valves and spark plug... Pretty interesting stuff. Guess I'll have to look at the one I've got out in the garage...

[BITESIZE]

164 horsies aint too shabby!!!

[bobafett]

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/motor1/thumbs/IMG_0399.jpg
click me (http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/motor1/IMG_0399.jpg)

normal shape

[rjudgey]

who's head is that?

[2ndGenGuy]

Bobbafett:

Thanks for the info. I totally noob'd out on that one. :) I see how he did it now. Pretty amazing work on that...

[rjudgey]

Trouble is what you gain from increasing CR ratio from welding it up you loose in having a poor combustion chamber shape, the head is barely skimmed as well so you could see even higher CR ratio with 1mm removed from the head surface. What probably woul dhave been better would have been custom pistons with a slightly raised crown some decking and head skimming would have seen high CR ratio but obviously at greater cost where as welding up the head would be easiers and cheaper to do. Would be interesting to see what kind of power it would really put down if the FI setup was ditched and a good old pair of Weber 45 DCOE's were bolted up and tuned to the engine i reckon you'd see at least another 20bhp with the wild cam thats if the dyno is in bhp and not whp if it's whp you'd be hard pressed to get another 10bhp from having webers maybe 15-20bhp if you had ITB's.

[bobafett]

who's head is that?

the head that is welded is mike/daryls from openloop obviously...
the 2nd head with the valve grind is mine...

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/

[AccordEpicenter]

solid work mike, i always wanted to see a cam dyno on an a20. I have to say this is probably the most impressive NA A20 builds ive seen, it does great for what parts its got into it. I bet the car could run much faster than a 15.5 1/4 too

[EricW]

Nice work.

[Justanothermike]

thanks for the comments guys. This motor wasn't built to be an all out NA build. So there is definately still room for improvement. You could go the other route of higher compression pistons without the welded combustion chambers, larger valves, maybe a larger TB, and the exhuast definately could be upgraded. With some of that stuff you loss driveablity tho but the race cam would definately benefit more from those mods. And more tuning flexibility would definately be needed. I think one of the most important aspect of this set up is the OBD1 conversion. Without it its pretty much impossible for these results to happen. And there is defiantely room for improvement with the ECU. We used a cheap chipped ecu. If we did some more ecu fine tuning with Hondata, or Chrome it would probably do better still.

[Cheeseburger]

so how much did u spend in all of ur engine mods?

[Justanothermike]

so how much did u spend in all of ur engine mods?


oh god, this car has passed the point where u could track all the money put into it long long long ago.

[Legend_master]

oh god, this car has passed the point where u could track all the money put into it long long long ago.


:lol: i feel you on that one :violin: .

[RobT5580]

Lol I stopped counting receipts after i hit the $15,000 mark........Sometimes i question it but at this point im to deep to give it up so i keep going.

Nice work Mike glad to see you guys are still around.

[bobafett]

Lol I stopped counting receipts after i hit the $15,000 mark........Sometimes i question it but at this point im to deep to give it up so i keep going.
Nice work Mike glad to see you guys are still around.


*gulp* I can't wait for that point... :( :( :violin: :Owned:

[shepherd79]

Lol I stopped counting receipts after i hit the $15,000 mark........Sometimes i question it but at this point im to deep to give it up so i keep going.
Nice work Mike glad to see you guys are still around.
$15K, man that is a lot of money. wouldn't be better to buy a newer car that makes that kind of power.

[MessyHonda]

$15K, man that is a lot of money. wouldn't be better to buy a newer car that makes that kind of power.


yeah but then you would not have the pleasure to say i built that car with my own 2 hands....and still spank ppl with newer cars.

[rjudgey]

$15k huh thats nothing especially as you guy's pay about half price on all your parts and labour compared to rip off U.K.

Can't even imagine howmuch i've spent over the last 10 years on my Lude enough to buy a nearly new Z4M i should think. The below is what i can think of immediately so i'm sure there's quite a few thousand hidden out of sight and mind somewhere within 10 years. And yes all my mates thing i'm nuts and i probably am ;0)

In one year spent $3000 on custom front brakes alone, then another $3000 on a race flowed head with custom made bronze guides and 5 angle valve grind, $3000 on block re-build which then had to have 4 pistons/rings and bearings replaced because one of them melted (whole lot needed to be rebalanced to new pistons) that was another $2000, the Webers and inlet manifold came to about $2000 as well, and custom stainless steel exhaust system a year later was about $1000, then a Teg Gearbox conversion with all new internals, flywheel and competition clutch as last one fell apart was another $1500, originally had 4 new shocks and Jamex springs $1500 but had to be rebuilt again 7 years later with new rear arms, Koni shocks, AVO springs, all new bushes in front and rod ends, ball joints etc was about $2500.

During the 10 years i've also bought 4 whole cars for spares and kept one of them on the road as it had B20A, cost about $2000 in total. Also over last 10 years built numerous engines which i systematically blew up in the need for speed roughly re-built and blew up about 10 engines which all had certain amount of machining work done to them, like re-boring, skimming, decking etc. so maybe roughly $4000 in machining work over ten years, 4 gearbox re-builds over ten years at about $2000 including cost of two extra boxes.

This year have bought parts for the ultimate A20 build consisting of two sets of Eagle rods with ARP bolts, 2 sets of custom forged pistons on order, yet more ACL bearings and another full gasket kit, Full Race head as far as you can go no more flow job with custom stainless steel valves 33mm inlet and 37mm exhaust, bronze guides, welded injection recess, welded port in front of guide boss, radius valve seats and valve heads, custom spec camshaft from piper cams, Teg box re-built and new mainshaft as last one was badly corroded, Pacesetter Header primary's with custom secondaries with 2.25" main pipe leading to the pacesetter 2.25" system, custom stainless steel inlet manifold with 6.5" runners at 7.5 degree angle to weber DCOE 45's. estimated cost on this one will be about $4000 for everything.

And don't even go there with homuch it's cost me in insurance and fuel for the last 10 years just roughly probably about $70k which is quite a scary thought!!!! no wonder i haven't been able to afford to buy my own house!!!

Oh and i suppose we must not forget the dozens of wheels and tyres bought estimated around $2500 roughly probably more!!!

Next year plan on building the ultimate B20A which should hopefully disprove that the B20A is useless unless turboed should have similar spec as the A20 apart from having two race camshafts and even bigger valves than the A20 plus the fact theres 16 o them as well and i finally have some adjustable pulley's!!!!

Oh and this time last year bought a brand new BMW 120d Msport so add $60k to the above i think works out at well over $150k dollars for ten years of playing around in cars. Also had about $10k worth of car audio equipment that is now sitting in my room doing nothing, as all it does is slow the car down!!!

[rjudgey]

doh double post

[rjudgey]

I will gt a A20 to produce more than 200whp that is my mission ;0)

[RobT5580]

$15K, man that is a lot of money. wouldn't be better to buy a newer car that makes that kind of power.

Its not like it was a lump sum but i did lay that down in one summer. I like my car enough and i realize i wont get much of that back but when all is said and done i should have something pretty original on the streets. Last summer the few people that saw my B20A turbo gave me lots of props for doing what i did and now i know where the bugs were im pretty confident this time around she will be nice.

But the guys out there like Mike from openloop are great to have cause they put a lot of R&D into this accord and i give them a lot of respect for that.

[rjudgey]

Couldn't agree more i think that heads a beaut and the 3rd Gen Coupe is one of the best looking Hondas made except maybe my 2G B20A lude might just be slightly better (although both very similar) just a shame there selling the car and not going to develope the engine and the head any further as i said before with relatively cheap mods and parts they could easily see more power with the existing setup and a better tune on the ECU. But hey if someone offers them the right kinda money then hopefully they'll look after the car and maybe do some more work on the engine and take some of my advice on further mods would be good to see a 3rd Gen Coupe with 200whp!!! I just wish there wasn't the atlantic in the way otherwise Mike you'd have cash in your hand right now!! Damn sometimes i hate being stuck on the wrong side of the water :0(
Just out of interest howmuch would it cost to ship a car to U.K. any ideas?
A Mint Jap B20A with no mods would run me $3200 plus $1200 for shipping this is U.S. dollars BTW divide in 2 equals pounds.

[shepherd79]

yeah i know it is not big lump of money at ones, but it still hurts.
As for MIKE, I give him 2 big thumbs up.

[AccordEpicenter]

yeah i think for the results this build, while not being all out and over the top, sounded pretty cost effective, especially because na is usually way too expensive. My car im coming up on 10k spent but youll be hard pressed to find somthing that will go faster for the money when its done. Itll be VERY impressive when its running, i promise. SC6152S> you

[gosse]

Because it has more horse power dont means it faster.. New car weigh a lot with all the crap going into it..

[smufguy]

Mike those are really nice numbers. I like the torque curve on the 256/270 better than the race cam, even tho the race cam seems to rev a lot higher

Nice stout numbers you got there. :)

[Sporno]

well if they can pull off these kinds numbers , i think it is possible to have a 200HP NA 3g with a decent powerband, look at the mods on the openloop accord vs guynaboo ( the AOY) ... ya know

[bobafett]

yeah its all in the tune imo..

and they both have obd1 swap. I think that is key for making any sort of drivable power with an NA a20... and even more so for a reliable boosted a20. :)

[rjudgey]

Allready had one you can achieve 200hp with a mild camshaft you just need everything else done properly but not excessive and twin webers suitabley jetted for the setup. Was very driveble did 30k miles in just over a year on that engine before conrods broke. reasonable low end and excellent midrange power all the way upto 7.5k rpm this was on a ET1 with A20 internals. A20 being built at present but with much larger exhaust valves, and my exhaust to inlet valve conversion, combined with aftermarket rods re-bushed to 20mm, titanium pins, forged Higher CR pistons, some serious amounts of head work and custom 6.5" inlet manifold plus exhaust and header should be adding upto 230-240bhp hopefully maybe bit more if i go mad on a custom camshaft grind with 290 degree 11mm lift on inlet and 295 degree and 12mm lift on exhaust. Not sure on Colt cams i might be tempted and try a race version of there tri flow see how that runs!!

[bobafett]

165.7whp x 15% drivetrain loss = 190.56 (flywheel hp)

170 whp = exactly 200 hp assuming a clean 15% drivetrain loss... you are less than 5whp away guys! rofl...

[Justanothermike]

well if they can pull off these kinds numbers , i think it is possible to have a 200HP NA 3g with a decent powerband, look at the mods on the openloop accord vs guynaboo ( the AOY) ... ya know

Did guaynabo89 ever get any numbers for his motor?? I'm interested to see what his is capable of putting down. His setup seems pretty similar.

[MessyHonda]

Did guaynabo89 ever get any numbers for his motor?? I'm interested to see what his is capable of putting down. His setup seems pretty similar.


i wish...they are going to have a dyno test day out here....i saw it on craigslist...13 buck a run with a min of 3 runs. its in livermore...i might check it out

[Cheeseburger]

set up a meet foo

[Justanothermike]

165.7whp x 15% drivetrain loss = 190.56 (flywheel hp)

170 whp = exactly 200 hp assuming a clean 15% drivetrain loss... you are less than 5whp away guys! rofl...


Yeah we're definately up around where a stock H22 and ITR puts out and around moded GSRs and B16s. Head to head we'd definately have something on them except probably the ITR. Quartermile wise i'd say somewhere around high 14s. In a hatchback this setup should be good for mid to low 14s.

[Justanothermike]

If anyone wants parts of this car check out the forsale thread. Links in my sig.

[ICEMAN707]

bump for some good info....

[Justanothermike]

Back from the dead. Car and parts are for sale again.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53419

[thegreatdane]

Wow, a living legend :) Thought this sold a long time ago.
If you are willing to ship to europe, I am very certain that epic1400cs wishes to buy your DC strut bar! He's in the UK.
I've just let him know, so he will probably chime in when he gets the message.

[MessyHonda]

wow...nice to see you around.

[epic1400cs]

If you are willing to ship to europe, I am very certain that epic1400cs wishes to buy your DC strut bar! He's in the UK.
I've just let him know, so he will probably chime in when he gets the message.
Thanks thegreatdane!
Yes, I am very interested in the DC tower bar.
Will you be able to ship abroad?
What color is it?

[Justanothermike]

As long as you pay for the shipping, i'll ship it anywhere. It is polished with the black mounts.

[rjudgey]

those dyno readings at the beginning were they at the wheel or the flywheel?
Just trying to get a new set of higher CR pistons from A20A3/4 running a really low CR ratio of 8.5:1 but still getting around 185bhp at the fly with a shitty exhaust and stock header going in next week for custom header with 1.75" long primaries and 2" secondaries with 2.5" collector and mandrel bent system all in Stainless being done by a racing specialist in UK should make good power and torque after that expecting around 200bhp maybe more if i can get the CR up a bit more.

[markmdz89hatch]

right so is that P&P head available? If so, how much? All the valve train stock? About how many miles on this? Any racing or just street driving on it?

As for the cam, what brand? Do you have specs on that 289 race cam?

Would you break up that SusTech sway-bar set and sell the rear separately? If so, how much?

Blaster coil? $$?

[codyJDM]

I would love to take the Integra hybrid tranny off your hands.

[2drSE-i]

would you be willing to part with the b16 manifold seperately? if so shoot me a pm

[MessyHonda]

hum....this car is perfect for a b-swap. mike let me know if you want to sell the shell with out the motor or trans...but leave the obd1 wiring

[Justanothermike]

I'd like to sell the block, head, and transmission with the car. I'm probably not going to go through the effort of removing them and replacing them.

[rfiks]

Are WHP figures? I'd say that your Race cam is causing a bottleneck in the engine trying to let too much air in and can't get the exhaust gas out quick enough, had same issues with a 285 degree camshaft i have which i've used in some of my engines, switched to the 272 degree and wham way more torque and loads of bhp at a lower rpm. I think if you seriously what some good extra power you need to be looking at some bigger valves, 33mm inlet valves and 37mm exhaust valves, and then maybe look at Eagle rods as stock ones tend to break at the neck with 180+bhp with and engine that revs 7k plus rpm with forged flatop pistons with custom 3 valve pocket reliefs in crown, then next phase ditch the plenum and switch to ITB's which should see you good for 200whp or very near to it as you have to have a CAT maybe 10hp less than what i can achieve. With the inlet and head opened up you should see a power band of 5-8.5krpm maybe upto 9k rpm depending on whats been done to your head.

Stock rods and bolts are fine upto 7.5k rpm use but should be replaced every 20k miles to make sure they don't go through the block!!

good call!:naughty:
sum1 knows their shit! you already did the hard part with the b16 im...

http://www.redline9.com/showthread.php?tid=391:deal:

(excellent build by the way!)

[rfiks]

thanks for the comments guys. This motor wasn't built to be an all out NA build. So there is definately still room for improvement. You could go the other route of higher compression pistons without the welded combustion chambers, larger valves, maybe a larger TB, and the exhuast definately could be upgraded. With some of that stuff you loss driveablity tho but the race cam would definately benefit more from those mods. And more tuning flexibility would definately be needed. I think one of the most important aspect of this set up is the OBD1 conversion. Without it its pretty much impossible for these results to happen. And there is defiantely room for improvement with the ECU. We used a cheap chipped ecu. If we did some more ecu fine tuning with Hondata, or Chrome it would probably do better still.

(IMO) IF... you dside to go with a bigger TB keep the the manifold 3-4mm larger.
bumpnbumpbumpbump................

[89accordvtec?]

where'd you find aftermarket parts for that car? i cant find any what so ever

[MessyHonda]

where'd you find aftermarket parts for that car? i cant find any what so ever

if you are around here il sell you the motor

[2ndGenGuy]

How much are you selling that motor for??

[MessyHonda]

1000 bucks takes the whole swap

block with head(rebuilt with bigger pistons, welded, port and polished head)
stage 2 tri flow colt cam
golden eagle adjustable cam gear
pacesetter ceramic coated headers with flex pipe
b16 intake manifold with 68mm tb
hybrid integra 1-5 gear trans
9 pound flywheel with 6 puck clutchnet disk and exedy pressure plate
OBD1 plate and already modified distributor

basicly everything...this set up makes at least 160whp... and is till get 24mpg on pump gas

[Legend_master]

1000 bucks takes the whole swap

block with head(rebuilt with bigger pistons, welded, port and polished head)
stage 2 tri flow colt cam
golden eagle adjustable cam gear
pacesetter ceramic coated headers with flex pipe
b16 intake manifold with 68mm tb
hybrid integra 1-5 gear trans
9 pound flywheel with 6 puck clutchnet disk and exedy pressure plate
OBD1 plate and already modified distributor

basicly everything...this set up makes at least 160whp... and is till get 24mpg on pump gas

And why is this motor not going into your car?

[mushroom_toy]

^Thats great you sell it after Ive already spent that in my motor ive almost got built. Fail messy fail.

[MessyHonda]

And why is this motor not going into your car?

i have a b20 that im building for more power...im trying to get at least 220hp..if i cant sell it i will keep it and see if i can find a virgin 3gee and just drop it in...no BS mods just one hot engine

[Strugglebucket]

Wanna sell me the cylinder head?