Merry christmas....dead fuel pump?

[wizzfish]

Driving out to the parents yesterday, having it ont he highway for about 40 mins over 3600 RPMs (it's a 3 speed auto), get off the highway, and when I go to speed up again, car bogs, then goes fine. At a stop light, accelerate, continues to bog. Holds around 2k RPM climbing a hill, sounds like it's not firing properly...backfires...dies.

Engine turns over, but won't actually start up. It was pissing rain and I don't think anything was leaking, it wasn't overheating, and I had at least 1/4 of a tank left. I'm used to FI, i know next to nothing about how carbs work.....but i understand there's "sort of" a fuel pump? Is this my likely cause?

It's abandoned on the side of the road since it's christmas and all but later today or tomorrow i'm going to go back to make sure my plugs and stuff are fine, but the fact that I can't even start it up and get a shitty idle going, makes me lean more towards fuel delivery?

Any input?

[MessyHonda]

how hard is to swap a pump? just bring one in case that is the prob

[wizzfish]

Well since it's CHRISTMAS I can't exactly go and grab one anywhere ;)

where's the pump on a first gen accord, in the tank or under the hood?

[race12001]

i dont thinnk on somthing that old there would be one in the tank but it might be under the car some where

[2ndGenGuy]

The fuel pump is in the drivers side rear wheel well.

Man I was totally up in Canada yesterday driving across Highway 1. My favorite 4-lane, divided highway. Where did you break down at?

[2ndGenGuy]

I'd hate to think I passed you on the freeway and didn't see you...

Hope this helps anyways:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/jgturk/81%20FSM/81AccordFuelSystem.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/jgturk/81%20FSM/81AccordFuelPumpandFilter.jpg

[offthahook]

Most likely. You can pull the fuel line from the carb and try to start the car to see if the fuel is making it from the tank to the carb. My 1G fuel pump crapped out and this is the test we did. Get some starter fluid and spray into the carb. while someone starts it. If it starts, idles, dies, idles when u spray more starter fluid, then dies... I'd guess it's a fuel pump. I didn't get much warning other than some hard to start days; I incorrectly charged that up to it being carb'd. Take off the driver rear wheel and there is a bracket with a few bolts. Behind this cover is the fuel pump. Pretty straightforward, but pinch your fuel hoses while you remove/install the fuel pumps. We disconnected the battery and opened the fuel cap as I recall, just to be safe. 2ndgen's picture is boss; HELM manual FTW!!! Be careful as all shit when you connect the wireset. One small spark and you'll know what's up...

[wizzfish]

You guys seriously rock....Going to mess with it tomorrow, will let you know how it goes.

[wizzfish]

and I broke down after I had gotten off the freeway in Abbotsford, so you probably didn't pass me :P

[2ndGenGuy]

Oh man. I drove through Abbotsford. I hit up the Sumas border in and out of Canada. We were so close!

[wizzfish]

It started when I got it again....tried driving away, died climbing a hill. Uncle tells me to pop off the cap...yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, i'll post a pic later, but there was pretty well no central electrode.

Got a new cap from partstore (they didn't have a rotor in stock, ordered a new one, just scraped the old one clean for now), runs better than ever.

So thankfully a $10 part (and i'll probably buy new plugs and wires along with the rotor) saved the day, phew!

[2ndGenGuy]

w00t! Lots of good stories lately about people gettin their cars fixed!

[offthahook]

That is tight you got it fixed. I remember when my breaker points crapped out in my 78 Accord. Man, I thought the engine was seriously f'd up! Points and plugs and it was like new. You might want to start hunting down a fuel pump now because I know it sucked when mine crapped out. Glad nobody vandalized your car while it sat on the side of the road. Around here, people ALWAYS pitch a rock (or worse) through the glass when cars are on the shoulder. I saw a decent 4G coupe today and the driver glass was gone. Typical.

[wizzfish]

^
i had managed to limp it to a residential area so I wasn't too bad off...but yea, I'll see what I can start hunting down :)

Thanks for the info......also, where the hell can one still find a Helm's manual?

[2ndGenGuy]

You can find the Helm's manuals on eBay, but they're usually for the US cars. It would have pretty much everything pertaining to your car except the carb and emissions systems though. If you did a Weber swap, you'd be okay with a US manual I would think. Maybe you'd wanna look for a manual on ebay.co.uk or something like that, since they get the same cars as you, aside from the wheel on the wrong side.

[2oodoor]

It started when I got it again....tried driving away, died climbing a hill. Uncle tells me to pop off the cap...yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, i'll post a pic later, but there was pretty well no central electrode.

Got a new cap from partstore (they didn't have a rotor in stock, ordered a new one, just scraped the old one clean for now), runs better than ever.

So thankfully a $10 part (and i'll probably buy new plugs and wires along with the rotor) saved the day, phew!
just a hint, you may want to get a matching rotor and cap. I have seen problems with different manufactors tolerances inside the cap. It may be running good now but if it is arcing badly inside of cap because the rotor does not quite fit the cap, it is just a matter of time before it burns or loses contact.

[offthahook]

You can find the Helm's manuals on eBay, but they're usually for the US cars. It would have pretty much everything pertaining to your car except the carb and emissions systems though. If you did a Weber swap, you'd be okay with a US manual I would think. Maybe you'd wanna look for a manual on ebay.co.uk or something like that, since they get the same cars as you, aside from the wheel on the wrong side.

I'm not 100% about this, but I think the HELM'S manuals cover North American Accords. Well, you guys got a totally different engine up there... I can't remember if they made a separate manual, but I guess they would when it comes to certain things that are way different. Maybe there was a Canadian supplement or something. I just keep thinking I saw "North American" pertaining to the Helm book. Hmmm...

[wizzfish]

just a hint, you may want to get a matching rotor and cap. I have seen problems with different manufactors tolerances inside the cap. It may be running good now but if it is arcing badly inside of cap because the rotor does not quite fit the cap, it is just a matter of time before it burns or loses contact.
mine's hitachi all around and that's what i replaced with.

[2ndGenGuy]

I'm not 100% about this, but I think the HELM'S manuals cover North American Accords. Well, you guys got a totally different engine up there... I can't remember if they made a separate manual, but I guess they would when it comes to certain things that are way different. Maybe there was a Canadian supplement or something. I just keep thinking I saw "North American" pertaining to the Helm book. Hmmm...

I'm pretty sure the Helm manual I have only covers the US models. It doesn't mention the EL engine for 1981, which is what those crazy Canadians still had. :lol:

[Ichiban]

I'm pretty sure the Helm manual I have only covers the US models. It doesn't mention the EL engine for 1981, which is what those crazy Canadians still had. :lol:


We still had that stupid engine until 83, some markets had it until 84-85? Imagine finding one in a 3g.

[2ndGenGuy]

Hmm you got me thinking about the E-series motors, I think the Wikipedia site on the E-engines is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_E_engine

#1 - Doesn't mention the non US / Japan EL engine which lasted until 83 in the Accord like you said.

#2 - Did the 82-83 EK have a 12-valve head??? I seriously question this, since the 82-83 EL was 8 valve. The EL usually followed the EK design, or so it seems, just without CVCC, and at slightly lower displacement...

[Ichiban]

Hmm you got me thinking about the E-series motors, I think the Wikipedia site on the E-engines is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_E_engine

#1 - Doesn't mention the non US / Japan EL engine which lasted until 83 in the Accord like you said.

#2 - Did the 82-83 EK have a 12-valve head??? I seriously question this, since the 82-83 EL was 8 valve. The EL usually followed the EK design, or so it seems, just without CVCC, and at slightly lower displacement...

1- Trust me, every canadian accord had the EL 1602. The only EK engine I've ever seen in Canada is in that blue car with the chrome valve cover.

2- That head I gave you is from an 83 EL 1602. Aside from the bolt pattern, it's similar in design to the EK, with the obvious minor differences. All EK/EL series (early "e" motors) were of a similar, 8 valve, counterflow rear exhaust configuration. The later ET ES etc engines are the 12 valve crossflow members of the A-series family of engines.

The wikipedia description of the EL and EK is wrong. The EL 1602 was never a 3 bbl, and the EK wasn't 12 valve, unless you consider the CVCC system, but even then not really.

[2ndGenGuy]

The wikipedia description of the EL and EK is wrong. The EL 1602 was never a 3 bbl, and the EK wasn't 12 valve, unless you consider the CVCC system, but even then not really.

I'm pretty sure that the EL in the USA had CVCC. The CVCC system is why they had the 3rd barrel. So I think the US EL engines, which was in the earlier 1g Accords may have had a 3bbl carb... but I can't say for sure.

[seancornelis]

I'm about 99% positive the EL was never in US cars, the 1.6l in '76-'78 Accords was the EF motor which isn't even listed on there. The only non-CVCC 1st/2nd Gen Hondas were the Civics with the EB motors.

That page definitely needs editing, because half these motors shouldn't even be on the list, obviously the Insight motor...the ES/ET were A-series and I think while the EV/EW were based on the original E-series they are really an early D-series motor. The ER (City Turbo) is a real E-series, though.

[offthahook]

I think the 1G Accords went from the EF in the 76-78's (1.6L) to the EK in the 79-81 (1.8L). Not sure what, if anything, the EG, EH, EI, and EJ series were in. There were a million other minor differences within each series as far as emissions/carberation, suspensions, etc. There had to be some busy ass engineers for sure!

[2ndGenGuy]

I suppose it is Wikipedia. We can update it at our will. But we should get it right before changing it.

[79cord]

#2 - Did the 82-83 EK have a 12-valve head??? I seriously question this, since the 82-83 EL was 8 valve. The EL usually followed the EK design, or so it seems, just without CVCC, and at slightly lower displacement...

Technically all the Accord CVCC engines '76-'83 (1600 & EK -I never remember the codes for the earlier '76-77 1600 CVCC & Non CVCC engines ), were 12-valve since they had the Auxhillary valve in the fuel-rich CVCC chamber... though obviously that's different from the conventional 12-valve layout in the main combustion chamber like the later '84-5 engines.

Regarding Electric Fuel pumps,
Mine tended to either work or not work at all, so the car wouldn't start in the first place, though could usually be shocked back into working by giving them a light tap with a hammer (or whatever was availible) for a fair while, untill I got around to replacing it.

I also had some similar running problems for a while -though never stranding me- from dirt in the carburettor...

[2ndGenGuy]

Yeah while it's technically a 12 valve, it shoudln't be considered so. I like to think this because my ES2 has "12-Valve" cast into the valve cover. There are 12 valves plus auxillary valves. So technically it would be 16-valve.

Honda doesn't count those valves, so I try not to as well. :)