for the turbo guys/wana go turbo/dream of going turbo

[ZackieDarko]

I have been toying with the idea of picking up a spare A20A3 and rebuilding it for a turbo. I really don't want to drop $500 on a set of forged pistons and then who knows how much for the H-Beam teggy rods.

I was thinking, why no just cryo treat the stock internals? If I could find a set of un-used or very lightly used rods/pistons and get them cryoed, how much boost do you think they could take? They are already beefy as is, so I am going to guess it will be quite a bit.


What are all of your thoughts?

[shepherd79]

you can try do that. I don't think anyone actually done it before.
it is all about the price.

[MessyHonda]

you can use a20a1 pistons since they have less compression

[88LXi68]

Why even bother? You can find these engines everywhere for CHEAP. I personally do not think cyro treating is worth half as much as a good machinest putting your engine together. Basically, what I am trying to say is that unless you are going to keep this car for the long haul just slap a turbo on the a20 and drive.

[MessyHonda]

yeah our cars can take 8 pounds on the daily....but if you want...i would rebuild the engine and get it balanced. you know a turbo set up cost around 2000 bucks right?.....i would do it but i dont need that much power...im happy with my bolt ons.

[bobafett]

i was going to cryo treat my entire engine (well at least that parts that are smart to cryo) but in the end i ended up with new stuff that didnt need it, cause it is already plenty strong (forged pistons, h-beams, etc).

IMO balance and machinist assembly is some of the best $ spent! My balance job was like $150 for clutch to crank pulley! And holy crap my motor is smooth! To have an a20 not get thrashy at higher rpms is really a new experience.

That being said, I don't know how much cryo stuff costs where you are, but it would have ran me about $200-$300 for EVERYTHING, and I have to bring him individual parts. IMO it would be worth it for a budget build.

The cost of a good balance job and cryo treating is less than a set of forged pistons. Assembly is not cheap, but if you are brave (experienced/skilled/stupid) you can do it yourself and save $500-$600.

On a little low boost setup I think its well worth the money to 'try'. The only parts in my motor worth cryoing by the time i was done were the block and the crank. I wasnt worried about the crank, since the whole motor is balanced, and a20 cranks don't generally have problems, and I know the block can handle it.

But I vote to try it and find out!

[snoopyloopy]

you can use a20a1 pistons since they have less compression
why run lower compression? just make sure you tune it properly and you can use 11.5:1 pistons.

[shepherd79]

why run lower compression? just make sure you tune it properly and you can use 11.5:1 pistons.
lower compression means more room for mistakes when tunning.

[mykwikcoupe]

rumor has it through the reading of other honda forums, even the open deck aluminum blocks oare good to about 300-350 hp. So that being siad, Id say go with stock internl;s crank and rods. A nice set of Forged pistons and a good headjob (heh heh). You probably wouldnt even need the forged but its a nice little safty net incase your tune is off.

So everything said and done, block prep rebiuld with some new parts and all under 1k biult for 300-250 hp will get well into the 12s maybe high elevens. If you want an extra engine Ive got almost a complete setup you can have. Im using it as a donor peice for my b20a install so the wiring harness is gone and a few other dump parts.

[LiTtLe xOx BitT]

For my turbo build im just doing a stock rebuild with ARP head studs and ACL rod bearings. Everything will end up costing me about $2000 to put out 250-300 HP.

[MessyHonda]

lower compression means more room for mistakes when tunning.

also cant you run more boast after its tuned right?

[snoopyloopy]

you can. but the higher boost will be making up for the lost compression. because you'll still have to run more boost to get the same power that you could w/ less boost and higher compression. it's all about tuning. and low comp/high boost or high comp/low boost, it doesn't matter. the engine will still only handle so much power whether you make those extra ponies with higher boost or higher compression.

[MessyHonda]

you can. but the higher boost will be making up for the lost compression. because you'll still have to run more boost to get the same power that you could w/ less boost and higher compression. it's all about tuning. and low comp/high boost or high comp/low boost, it doesn't matter. the engine will still only handle so much power whether you make those extra ponies with higher boost or higher compression.


yeah but the pistons have a fixed compression and boost does not...and if you have time to get it tune you can get the turbo and set it up for wut you want. lets say you have 11.5 cp pistons and you only have 5 pounds its going to be hard to tune it...when you have 8.8cp pistons and can have more lay back to tune down your boost...

[snoopyloopy]

oh, i know that. what i'm saying, though, is that the engine will only physically handle a certain amount of pressure and stress and it will most likely be the about the same whether you get them from higher boost pressures or higher initial compression. but yes, of course, it will be much easier to get your car up and running on 8.8:1 instead of 11.5:1.

[MessyHonda]

oh, i know that. what i'm saying, though, is that the engine will only physically handle a certain amount of pressure and stress and it will most likely be the about the same whether you get them from higher boost pressures or higher initial compression. but yes, of course, it will be much easier to get your car up and running on 8.8:1 instead of 11.5:1.

arp studs FTW

[Accordtheory]

You can build an a20, but why? I did this to my tranny with stock internals.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/814000-814999/814838_13_full.jpg

[snoopyloopy]

lmao. well, the amount of 5-speed 3g accords in the yards near me mean i'll have no shortage of trannies to abuse (:lol:). but that could get kinda expensive after awhile.

[Hash_man_Se_i]

wow that is one f***ed up tranny.

And darko... IMO, I would rather wait and spend the money on pistons and rods then spend money on cryotreating stock internals. probably not worth it in the long run.

[89T]

You can build an a20, but why? I did this to my tranny with stock internals.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/814000-814999/814838_13_full.jpg
why?
I don't think it is because of the challange.
It could be bragging rights.
theres only two people in the world running 10 sec and faster with a a20.
I know there is only a hand full of people willing to spend the money to do right, and to tell you the truth it is inexpensive compared to swaping engines then going turbo.
i know i don't have to convince you seeing that you were one of the pioneers in the fourm.

it will be much easier to get your car up and running on 8.8:1 instead of 11.5:1.
10.5:1 boosted here....explain? i tuned mine with stock injectors, safc, and btm with no problems. (now i am on the holley commander.)
i think you need to decide what you want when it comes to compression. I wanted hella tourque thus i went higher compression.(+ i started with an auto tranny)
my dyno sheet shows you that higher comp. net's you higher tourque in and out of boost.
but that's for you to decide.

[MessyHonda]

^^^well you are an a20 turbo god...

[ZackieDarko]

an adapter plate can always be made of the stock trannys start to die


im not looking to run 10's im looking for a engine i can drive my car DAILY with...so 300whp is as much as i want..i think cryod stock internals would easily do that with an OBD-1 conversion

[MessyHonda]

not another adapter plate.....its easyer to get a20 trannys than b-series...but if you want aftermarket b-series is the way to go....like LSD...gears and shit like that.

[Accordtheory]

I think the stock internals can reliably create 300whp, especially with cryo treating. My intuition tells me for some reason that cryo treating would be a lot less effective on the pistons than the rods though. I have no idea if this has any actual basis in reality, but I kind of suspect that since the aluminum pistons already heat cycle so many times... What I've really wondered about for a while is how much of an effect cryo treating would have on that stupid tranny. I've read a lot about cryo treating, and it totally makes sense. After learning how cryo treating relieves a part's internal stresses so the part can fight against external stresses instead of against itself at the same time, I think everything should be cryo treated..but I still don't have an idea of a % increase in strength from it. I'm guessing maybe 75% stronger?

I also don't know why my tranny failed either. It could have been due to just too much force on the teeth, to much heat build up due to inadequate lubrication causing metal fatigue, further compromising the ability of the oil to lubricate it, I don't know. All I know is I just smoothly shifted into 5th at about 110mph under boost, and there was nothing there..
I am also really curious about something else too. The tranny is supposed to use engine oil, but gas engine oil doesn't have any "extreme pressure additives". I would think that it would be highly advantageous to use an oil that has those properties in a tranny, as I suspect the loading on the teeth (surface vs force) is significantly higher than even what the rod bearings see at 8k rpm. Diesel oil supposedly has those additives. I wonder if gm synchromesh fluid does..

[Vanilla Sky]

hmm, i think i'd go with the teg hybrid or open up the oil passages in the stock case and cryo my trans gears if you did that on a fully stock bottom end.

[89T]

I think the stock internals can reliably create 300whp, especially with cryo treating. My intuition tells me for some reason that cryo treating would be a lot less effective on the pistons than the rods though. I have no idea if this has any actual basis in reality, but I kind of suspect that since the aluminum pistons already heat cycle so many times... What I've really wondered about for a while is how much of an effect cryo treating would have on that stupid tranny. I've read a lot about cryo treating, and it totally makes sense. After learning how cryo treating relieves a part's internal stresses so the part can fight against external stresses instead of against itself at the same time, I think everything should be cryo treated..but I still don't have an idea of a % increase in strength from it. I'm guessing maybe 75% stronger?
I also don't know why my tranny failed either. It could have been due to just too much force on the teeth, to much heat build up due to inadequate lubrication causing metal fatigue, further compromising the ability of the oil to lubricate it, I don't know. All I know is I just smoothly shifted into 5th at about 110mph under boost, and there was nothing there..
I am also really curious about something else too. The tranny is supposed to use engine oil, but gas engine oil doesn't have any "extreme pressure additives". I would think that it would be highly advantageous to use an oil that has those properties in a tranny, as I suspect the loading on the teeth (surface vs force) is significantly higher than even what the rod bearings see at 8k rpm. Diesel oil supposedly has those additives. I wonder if gm synchromesh fluid does..
I am going to go with you'r surface VS. force argument. I don't remember who told me "never hit 5th under full boost" but I have a good feeling he is right.

im not looking to run 10's im looking for a engine i can drive my car DAILY with...so 300whp is as much as i want..i think cryod stock internals would easily do that with an OBD-1 conversion
300whp should net high 12's. If I were you I would atleast spend the money for forged pistons and cryo treat everything else. If you detonate even once under high boost on stock pistons you'r talking major meltdown.
on my last project i was pushing 14lbs and for some reason it leaned out detonated and torched a hole in #3 the size of a quarter.
I was only in it for a couple of seconds, and cost me a full rebuild.
you should be able to find some good pistons for around $350

^^^well you are an a20 turbo god...
If someone here were to build an a20 on stock internals whith the amount of boost it will take to make 300hp they would be the a20 god.
plus i would have to slap my self for spending soo much fkn money. :)

[shepherd79]

The tranny is supposed to use engine oil, but gas engine oil doesn't have any "extreme pressure additives". I would think that it would be highly advantageous to use an oil that has those properties in a tranny, as I suspect the loading on the teeth (surface vs force) is significantly higher than even what the rod bearings see at 8k rpm. Diesel oil supposedly has those additives. I wonder if gm synchromesh fluid does..

well, our trannies were never designed to see more than 120hp. so i am sure they didn't expect people running 200+ hp at the wheels.

[newaccorddriver]

If someone here were to build an a20 on stock internals whith the amount of boost it will take to make 300hp they would be the a20 god.
plus i would have to slap my self for spending soo much fkn money. :)


300 crank or WHP?:) im aiming for 15's this winter, and hopefully 13's next summer with elijahs help

[89T]

300 crank or WHP?:) im aiming for 15's this winter, and hopefully 13's next summer with elijahs help
WHP of course.as a guess you'ed need to put down at least 20 psi for 300 hp.
good luck with you'r project.
edit: I didn't mean to sound sarcastic.

[newaccorddriver]

WHP of course.as a guess you'ed need to put down at least 20 psi for 300 hp.
and good luck with you'r project.


well, according to elijah, 300whp is nearly impossible to drive on a daily basis on an accord. he says 200whp is all i really need. im aiming for 200whp with my setup, and when i gather enough funds, im going to build his spare block, and use forged bottom end stuff along with his head. hopefully that would net me somewhere around 275-300whp. as far as stock bottom end goes, i think its hard to go over 200whp on it let alone 300whp

[bobafett]

keep in mind accord epicenter ran a 13.7 with a stock car and a 3" tbe with dsm injectors and an safc. this is at around 11-13 psi i believe.

with a 2.5 second 60' or something rediculous like that on shitty 195 street tires.

I think that 13's in the 1/4 mile should be easily achievable with any kind of a tune, 10psi and decent tires.

I am sure you will meet your goals man, and good luck with the setup!

[ZackieDarko]

ummmm i think there should be a WA meet where we all bring parts to donate to my new turbo build :-D

[AccordEpicenter]

yeah, when i did that i was on a completely stock 135k mile engine, and when i eventually did have problems with it, the compression was still 175 ish psi in all cyls, it was main bearing and oil pressure issues. It just goes to show you, that if you dont halfass your managemant and tune conservatively the engine should take 10-12psi easily. Ive hit as much as 17-18psi spikes a few times and it lived. The weak point in the bottom end is def the pistons but the rods i believe would be just fine if you shotpeen and replace the rod bolts to 300hp or so. Problem is, once you do all that machine work to the rods, you would have been better off getting eagle H beams for a modest price increase.

[MessyHonda]

man Epicenter....for stock that is damn good.

[newaccorddriver]

yeah, when i did that i was on a completely stock 135k mile engine, and when i eventually did have problems with it, the compression was still 175 ish psi in all cyls, it was main bearing and oil pressure issues. It just goes to show you, that if you dont halfass your managemant and tune conservatively the engine should take 10-12psi easily. Ive hit as much as 17-18psi spikes a few times and it lived. The weak point in the bottom end is def the pistons but the rods i believe would be just fine if you shotpeen and replace the rod bolts to 300hp or so. Problem is, once you do all that machine work to the rods, you would have been better off getting eagle H beams for a modest price increase.


i bought some aftermarket stocky like pistons. is there anything i can do to strengthen them?

for my spare block, when i get some decent coinage, its gonna recieve eagle rods, custom pistons, elijahs head if its not being used on my current block, and a host of other goodies.

[ZackieDarko]

only way to up the strengeth of the pistons is to cryo them

[newaccorddriver]

only way to up the strengeth of the pistons is to cryo them


dont they have to be forged to be cryoed? a guy that works in a performance shop told me that i couldnt cryo my stock pistons and rods because they were cast

[2drSE-i]

You can build an a20, but why? I did this to my tranny with stock internals.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/814000-814999/814838_13_full.jpg


why not cryo treat the tranny?

[Accordtheory]

I am going to go with you'r surface VS. force argument. I don't remember who told me "never hit 5th under full boost" but I have a good feeling he is right.


I don't think it matters what gear you're in, necessarily. The most force exerted on the teeth of the diff gear would be as soon as your tires grab, and the force on each other gear teeth dependent on their particular ratios and the torque of the motor at that rpm. I think 5th is just a weak gear in the a20 tranny.

I also posted up on h-t about the fluid thing, maybe I'll learn something and be able to share it back over here.

[Accordtheory]

My intuition tells me for some reason that cryo treating would be a lot less effective on the pistons than the rods though. I have no idea if this has any actual basis in reality, but I kind of suspect that since the aluminum pistons already heat cycle so many times...

Any ideas on this..?

[MessyHonda]

yeah our 5th gear...is not that strong.

[Cheeseburger]

You can build an a20, but why? I did this to my tranny with stock internals.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/814000-814999/814838_13_full.jpg


god dam!!!!