A20a1 Potential?

[Blk87dx]

how much potential does that a20a1 have or would it just be less expensive to swap the motor out?

[speedpenguin]

Neither option really has potential unless you're willing to spend some serious money and time...

[MessyHonda]

a20 is not a bad engine if you rebuild it right...with carbs you can make up to 160-180hp

[snoopyloopy]

a20 is not a bad engine if you rebuild it right...with carbs you can make up to 160-180hp
:slap: don't tell him something that discouraging. 300+ is possible. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1983-Honda-Civic-SCCA-Race-Car-Drag-Autocross-Fast_W0QQitemZ250074662919QQihZ015QQcategoryZ6256Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[89T]

I have spent over 6g's but that includes design and re-design replacing good parts with better ones. then going standalone.
if i would have done it one time the way i have it now i would have only spent alittle over half that.
this is all i have to show for it.
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3083/november1920062ci7.jpg

[AccordEpicenter]

For bang for the buck, go turbo. For the money you spend on an engine swap you could be going faster with the stock engine on boost, it rips pretty good

[Blk87dx]

^^^ those are still pretty good numbers tho.

[MessyHonda]

:slap: don't tell him something that discouraging. 300+ is possible. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1983-Honda-Civic-SCCA-Race-Car-Drag-Autocross-Fast_W0QQitemZ250074662919QQihZ015QQcategoryZ6256Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



yeah no one HERE has one....only the serious ppl that dont need help and just build it on there own....we are too cheap to dyno our cars.

[skycam_313]

dont be a quitter........ tune that carb

[hotdoghogie]

I have spent over 6g's but that includes design and re-design replacing good parts with better ones. then going standalone.
if i would have done it one time the way i have it now i would have only spent alittle over half that.
this is all i have to show for it.
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3083/november1920062ci7.jpg


jesus crust! thoes are good numbers man... what do u have done to that pony?

[89T]

jesus crust! thoes are good numbers man... what do u have done to that pony?
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53254

[Blk87dx]

For bang for the buck, go turbo. For the money you spend on an engine swap you could be going faster with the stock engine on boost, it rips pretty good
ya in all rationality that is a perfect idea but here is the thing. my car has 260xxx miles on it. i doubt that car has to many miles left as it sits right now let alone boosting it. that car has been driving rough.

[speedpenguin]

If you want to pull anything even close to high HP from that block, no matter how you do it, a rebuild is in order. Just asking the question "What kind of potential does the A20A1 have?" Leaves me assuming that you're planning on a rebuild.

[MessyHonda]

yup rebuild that is alot of miles

[Blk87dx]

ya that is my question that a couple peices of the right answer that i want. all im wanting to really know is what kinda hp/tq can i get out of it if i rebuild it. or if it would be cheaper and take less time to swap another motor in it.

[snoopyloopy]

the question isn't how much can you get out of it but rather how much money do you have and how much power do you want to get out of it?

[speedpenguin]

If you do a good job on the rebuild, and then boost it, you can probably get up to 300. Just depends on how strong the block and how big the turbo.

[MessyHonda]

yup....power=money



so the more money you have the more power you can make.....a rebuild might cost 1-2k if you do most of the stuff yourself.

[newaccorddriver]

a rebuild might cost 1-2k if you do most of the stuff yourself.

mines running about 1.5k so far, but i bought everything new though. and factor in the tools you might not have yet, and itll raise it by alot more

[LiTtLe xOx BitT]

ya that is my question that a couple peices of the right answer that i want. all im wanting to really know is what kinda hp/tq can i get out of it if i rebuild it. or if it would be cheaper and take less time to swap another motor in it.
What price range are you looking at? Theres really no telling how much power you can make until you give an amount that you have to spend. If you have $1000 or less then your limited to basic bolt-ons which is not too much power. If you have $1000 to $2000 you can do all of the bolt-ons, B18 intake manifold, headwork, prelude tranny(shorter gears), maybe some nitrious and that will make some good HP gains but nitrious gets expensive. If you have $2000 or more to spend then you can do a turbo setup and put out some nice gains. Horsepower costs money, how fast do you want to go?

[speedpenguin]

I think he wants to go 2 Fast and 2 Furious...

[2oodoor]

I think he wants to go 2 Fast and 2 Furious...
yea, "potential" , potential for what?

my expected potential is a smooth running, reliable, easy to work on car that will do 100mph in less than a minute. There are just too many V6 cars that will shame you in an old Accord.

[MessyHonda]

some cars are heavy with v6s....my friends 02 impala is slow

[2oodoor]

There are just too many V6 cars that will shame you in an old Accord.
I did not know what I was thinking when I wrote that, so sorry. I guess what I meant was just about any late model car now is reasonably quick, possibly quicker than a lot of 3rd gen Accords. But not nearly as fun.

[Blk87dx]

well what i mean for potential is it worth building up a a20a1 or should i just not waste my time and buy a different motor?

[snoopyloopy]

well, you still haven't answered the question. some people will tell you go for out, others will say scrap it. but it all hinges on this main question: what is your goal?

[MessyHonda]

well what i mean for potential is it worth building up a a20a1 or should i just not waste my time and buy a different motor?
\



depends.....how much money you want to spend? and how much its going to really cost you....

[A20A1]

If you like the accord stick with the accord and build the motor or swap, in that sense it will always be worth it becuase you like the car.

But if you don't like the look of the accord and want a different car then sell it. If the only reason you want a car is for the motors potential then any car will do, and any motor is fair game with the right amount of money.

For me, I just want a 3G Accord with a working motor, the rest I can build up slowly but at least It'll be a 3G. It wouldn't be worth it to me to build any other car no matter how easy they might be to upgrade. Owning a fast car is one thing, owning a 3G is another.

... and owning a fast 3G is, well Indescribable. :)

[speedpenguin]

well what i mean for potential is it worth building up a a20a1 or should i just not waste my time and buy a different motor?

We already told you, really, it just depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you like the A20A1, you can pull HP out of it, it's just harder than doing so with another engine. If you want to swap motors, remember that you can't "just" swap another engine in. It's going to be a lot more difficult than with another car because you will probably have to fab your own mounts and axles. If you decide to go turbo, you will have to figure out how you're going to tune it.

All of these things can be done and have been done before. But we can't really tell you what to do until you can tell us exacly what it is you want to do.

No one's going to be able to give you solid numbers on what you can pull out of the block, because very few people have actually pushed it to it's limits. A couple dudes on here have, but I'm not going to speak for them, if they want to add some input they will do it themselves.

[snoopyloopy]

:werd: good post right there.

and yeah, that's basically the short of it. unless you tell us what you want out of the motor, then we've told you everything we can. now, just look around the forum, read (not dig up) old threads about different ways to get a decent amount of power out of the engine and how much it cost each person, and decide if that's something you really want to do.

[Blk87dx]

don't get me wrong i would not have bought the car if i didn't like how it looks. but ok, ima try and word this as best as possible. i want this car to be a sti killer, which i know is very difficult. but ive always had dohc cars and this whole sohc thing just kinda got me wondering if the motor(if fully built) would be able to withstand that kinda power. in my mind if its bigger then its better. given there are a few exceptions litre, displacement, things of that sort. basically i want to put down mad hp, its always been my dream to own a fast car. so ya, if anybody has some relatively cheap mods/upgrades for this motor would be awesome. btw the motor has 260xxx+ miles on it. so nothing to drastic.

[speedpenguin]

High horsepower and high mileage don't mix. Period. Even if you do very slight mods to give the car some pickup, the engine's going to go once you start taking advantage of them, simply because of the extra abuse.

But to answer your questions:

Yes your block can handle a lot of power, it's cast iron, and 2 liters. It's getting the power for it to handle that's going to be a problem.

If you want to beat STIs, you're not going to do it with boltons. Even an Integra Type R can't run 13s without mods.

How would I do this with the A20A1? I'd start with a full engine rebuild EFI conversion, and a lot of boost. Either way you're rebuilding that block. There's no way around it. Strip the interior out, cut weight wherever you can. Swap the gears in the tranny for the ones in a 1st gen Integra. That should get you a good part of the way there.


If you just want to make your car a bit quicker and more fun, Weber carb, header, exhaust, high-flow cat, Delta cam, and integra gears (or a Prelude tranny) are a proven combination.

[cygnus x-1]

From Wikipedia; a '97 STI has 280HP and weighs 2755lbs. That's 9.84lbs/HP. You need to beat that ratio. With a stock weight of roughly 2300lbs you would need about 235HP. For that you pretty much need a turbo or nitrous.

C|

[rjudgey]

Also the other advantage of STI is 4WD so with a FWD car you need to have the suspension setup properly e.g. higher/stiffer rear springs make sure that there is little camber on the front tyres to keep maximum traction on the tyres at all times (for drag racing) zero toe caster isn't important so keep that stock which i think is 0 as well. Good tyres will allways make more of a difference than you think Goodyear f1 eagles are a good buy and very sticky but Yokohama A048 or Toyo R888 are better for racing in but twice the price. And then it's just a case of loosing as much weight out of the car as possible.

[snoopyloopy]

don't get me wrong i would not have bought the car if i didn't like how it looks. but ok, ima try and word this as best as possible. i want this car to be a sti killer, which i know is very difficult. but ive always had dohc cars and this whole sohc thing just kinda got me wondering if the motor(if fully built) would be able to withstand that kinda power. in my mind if its bigger then its better. given there are a few exceptions litre, displacement, things of that sort. basically i want to put down mad hp, its always been my dream to own a fast car. so ya, if anybody has some relatively cheap mods/upgrades for this motor would be awesome. btw the motor has 260xxx+ miles on it. so nothing to drastic.
this car to be an sti killer? of a stock sti or a modded? because there's no way in hell this car can beat a modded sti unless you swap an sti or evo powertrain into it or something else equally as drastic. you need the awd or some really sticky tires + high hp. in which case, bye bye tranny. although with that kind of power, you could probably take a highway race from a roll, but not very much dragging. but go with a rebuild for sure. convert to efi. convert to obd-1. one of the older turbo members was said to be running 30 or so psi on an a20a3, but he had trouble tuning it big time. with obd-1, it should be possible, as long as the block can handle it. i know some evos are running 40+ psi, so our iron-blocked motors should be able to handle something similar with a stellar rebuild, metal hg, etc. running 40 psi, you should be able to get into 300+ hp, maybe even 400 if you're a madman and have extensive headwork done and a big enough turbo. the cheaper alternative is to get an awd dsm and upgrade it a little, and presto, sti killer right there.

[speedpenguin]

I think he's trying to beat a stock one. If you mod your car to beat a more powerful car, obviously that only works until the more powerful car gets modded. 250HP is an achievable goal for an A20A, if you're dedicated. Do that with some sticky tires and you should be set. One advantage with that power is that a 3G is a lighter car than an STi.

[rjudgey]

My 2G lude can beat a stock STI but once they've had a remap they have too much traction from standstill, don't forget 4WD saps a lot of power WHP power he's not making a great deal plus the added weight. But my lude only weighs around 1900lbs and had 200bhp new engine will be about 230-250 with some more weight reduction from the doors and boot hinges and bonnet hinges etc. should be able to keep up with modded ones and easily beat stock ones. Hell even my Diesel Beemer is quicker in the first 1/8 mile it's only cause i have to change gear so much that they catch me up and beat me on the last stretch of the 1/4 but normally with the 300lbft of torque and the really high gear ratios plus my better reactions i normally get a good half to full car length ahead right at the start. You can't beat RWD for dragging best grip and you loose less to the transmission!! If my Beemer didn't weigh 1.5 tonnes it would beat em for sure but it's my normal car so i'm not about to go ripping out all the insides and the Stereo system to loose a few hundred pounds!!

[cygnus x-1]

Doh! I screwed up my math. I keep forgetting you guys have heavy-ass Accords. To beat 9.84lbs/HP you would need more like 255HP assuming a stock weight of 2500lbs.

With Rich's 1900lbs and 200HP that's puts him at 9.5lbs/HP. Slight advantage.

C|

[MessyHonda]

Doh! I screwed up my math. I keep forgetting you guys have heavy-ass Accords. To beat 9.84lbs/HP you would need more like 255HP assuming a stock weight of 2500lbs.

With Rich's 1900lbs and 200HP that's puts him at 9.5lbs/HP. Slight advantage.

C|



lol i think mine is 2700 pounds....duh!:uh:

[Toohardtohandle]

I was reading somewhere that the LX-i (EX-i) is 2764lbs. Which I thought was really heavy. A buddy of mine use to work for Honda, and had mentioned to me one day that the older model Accords where considerable lighter than the newer ones? But...I don't know???

[Blk87dx]

well i figured out what i am going to do there is a guy around town that wrecked his 3gee accord but it has the a20a6 efi so i can do my efi swap. and its a 87 as well. so what i will do is keep my old engine in the car and just build that one up.

[snoopyloopy]

nice. just make sure to grab it as a parts car. will make your life oh so much easier.

[rjudgey]

Yeah and stick the car on Diet you'll be amazed how much weight you can pull out and then even more amazed at the difference in braking, handling and accelleration it makes!!
Things like the seats replaced with Kevlar/fibreglass buckets, the mirrors being changed with racing items (trust me these are Fing heavy even the interior one is heavy compared to little plastic racing one!!) When you've dumped everythign out put it into a big bag and weigh it all you''l be shokced how much you loose!! I've ditched everything from rear wiper, engine pulling brackets and bolts that hold em on, rear boot lid springs, rear belts and the bolts that hold them on, The A/C system is pretty damn heavy, the P/S but not sure if you guy's can get manual racks, the lighter the car the less you need the P/S anyways!! Racing steering wheel lighter than big plastic rubber stock one, and Carbon gear knob.You could remove the Glass from the rear doors and replace with perspex and then gut all the inside of the door to an empty shell, replace the inside door cards with Carbon panels or Alluminum panels. Ditch the spare wheel and the jacking kit unless on long journery and use that rubbery puncture repair kit instead. Remove all the inside of the trunk, carbon bonnet if you can still get them? Bonnet and boot hinges replaced with racing pin mechanism, removing the iron girders that seem to be hiding behind the front and rear bumpers on U/S cars U.K. ones are only small little light bar thats purely to hold the plastic skin in place so weigh next to nothing!! I think this is the main reason U.K. and Euro cars are so much lighter than U/S!! Just make sure you don't hit anything big or too fast!! Lighter forged alloys 15" or 16" max with lighter bolts to hold them on, you'd be surprised howmuch all 16 weigh compared to aftermarket ones!! Bit more extreme Ally calipers and mounts and bigger disks with ally bell ends, shame you can't easily and cheaply replace all nuts and bolts with titanium ones as i'm sure that would save a huge amount in weight!! Hey were getting into the realms of giant sized R/C car racing here!! Some titanium driveshafts, titanium suspension arms and steering knuckle's ;0) If only!!

[nskforlife]

i want this car to be a sti killer.
:kekeke:

that's the funniest thing i've ever heard. yea, it's possible, But with boltons.... hahaha. theres a reason why people choose civics or integras of preludes, cause there is WAYY more aftermarket support for them.

I honestly dont think you have what it takes to make a STI killer. lol. and the reason being that you want to make an sti killer with bolt ons.
heres the mods you need to get to make an sti killer:
* cross drilled brake lines
* piston return springs
* rear bumper fluid
* insulated spark plugs
* brake light coolant
* radiator insulator blanket
* "O" pipe exhaust
* exhaust HEPA filters

then, my friend, you will be the fastest car in the world.

[smufguy]

if you want to build a fast car, keep your aim level high, as in higher than an STI. BEcause an STI is a stock car with 300hp, its easy to beat that with small mods of around. Making power is not rocket since, but making that power Reliably is the hardest task. THe way you make reliable power is you do it the right way, the first time you attempt it.

Lemme give you a run down of what you need here real quick. There are and there will be mixed comments about it, but i know what has worked and i am giving you an example.

Just the Motor

Head Job: $300
Custom Cr Pistons: $500
Custom Rods: $300
Basic Machining of the block: $300
Main Bearings/Head Studs: $300
Misc: $100

Sub total: $1800

Turbo + Acces

60 Trim T3/T4: $500
Turbo Manifold: $300
Oil Lines+fittings: $230
Inter Cooler: $250
Bov: $200

Sub Total: $1480

Management + Tuning

Megasquirt: $300
Tuning (5 hours +tuner cost): $400

Sub Total: $700

Grand Total: $3980

For around $4000 you can have a reliable 300whp car that will destroy 90% of the cars out there and will still be drivable on the rods with normal idle. DO NOT misunderstand that these figures to be exact, its just an estimation of what you can possibly do.

If you see someone spend twice as more if not greater and make much less with more effort, you know they are not doing something right.

[rjudgey]

Your not goign to beat anything with a 260k engine, any Honda with just bolt ons isn't going to beat an STI not even a Civic not even a Type R what ever, Turbo means big torque numbers and usually 4WD you need a lot of substantial mods whether it be engine or suspension to stand a chance of being able to beat one from a standstill.

With a Full re-build with Eagle rods and 83mm forged B18 pistons with blank pistons crown which you'll then have to get machined to fit our 3 valve chambers, loads of headwork with big valve conversion, skim a little of it, and deck the block too a bit, ally flywheel, clutchnet clutch kit, S&S header, 2.25" mandrel bent system, Hi flow cat or no cat, some beefy induction like Twin weber DCOE's or ITB's, Camshaft with at least 280 degrees duration and 11mm lift, Megasquirt if using ITB's or any crank fired ignition system if running carbs. And that should stand you in good stead for a reliable 200-250bhp depending on final CR ratio and camshaft choice. You'd also be lighter and wouldn't suffer any turbo lag issues plus you could allways dump 50 shot of NOS maybe 75 through it without too many issues just make sure you sort out the tranny as well and maybe look at the Teg hybrid conversion on the box. Cost wise would be about the same as the Turbo setup but a lto easier to install as no extra oil lines to turbo etc. and no intercooler or piping to worry about either. Different approach with different kind of power delivery if anythign at elast you'd scare the shit out of the STI with the noise it would make ;0) He'll just think shit that sounds the bollocks must be faster than me and not try too hard!!

Also don't forget Smuf is guessing personaly i'd spend way more than $300 on head work $1000 would get you something really special going on with custom valves and stuff, also all the prices are just for parts no labour if you can't do any of this shit yourself your screwed double the cost straight away!!!!

[speedpenguin]

Well now you know what to do to build an STi killer.

Building your motor seperately will allow you to take your time and do everything right. Good luck with your build!

[smufguy]

rjudgey: Oh those numbers are not guesses, i have connections. LOL.

[MessyHonda]

yeah bolt ons for now....lol maybe later a headjob with a cam

[rjudgey]

I know your prices on the other stuff is on the money but Smuf $300 for headwork thats nothing i do most the headwork myself and wth the machining costs still costs more than $300!! for that price your just talking 3 angle seats, and a skim to flatten things.

[Blk87dx]

well i can probably have the machining work done for free my dad is a machinist and he knows how to do all of that. so theres 1300 down well ill just keep fighting to make this accord bad ass.

[snoopyloopy]

so are you going to get the b18b like your sig says or stay a20a1? because frankly, if you're going to go through all the trouble of a b-series swap, it seems foolish to me to do that and not get vtec if you're staying na.

[nskforlife]

lol sorry to sound mean but honestly you sound to me like you dont know much about cars man. you might want to start getting some reading material and understand some concepts of power...

[speedpenguin]

Hey he's got the plan, he's on the right track. What happens next is up to him.

Good luck man!

[Blk87dx]

lol sorry to sound mean but honestly you sound to me like you dont know much about cars man. you might want to start getting some reading material and understand some concepts of power...

your right, on one point i honestly know nothing about hondas but when it comes to other cars, chevy in particular i can do about anything except do the rear diff. basicly with my eyes closed. but since i dont have the money for gas for my elcamino i drive my honda i commute like 51 miles a day. and i want to make my honda faster and more fun. so we shall see. and the whole b series swap is what i had in mind until i found another accord for 100 bucks with a fi motor in it.

[A20A1]

well i figured out what i am going to do there is a guy around town that wrecked his 3gee accord but it has the a20a6 efi so i can do my efi swap. and its a 87 as well. so what i will do is keep my old engine in the car and just build that one up.
You mean A20A3... there is no 6 to my knowledge and the only other EFI is the A20A4 which is not a US spec engine. Earlier models of the A20 EFI were listed under "BT" rather that "A20A3".


well i can probably have the machining work done for free my dad is a machinist and he knows how to do all of that. so theres 1300 down well ill just keep fighting to make this accord bad ass.
If your dad is a machinist have him work out the missing parts you need and try a DOHC head swap.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47597
.
.
.

[nskforlife]

your right, on one point i honestly know nothing about hondas but when it comes to other cars, chevy in particular i can do about anything except do the rear diff. basicly with my eyes closed. but since i dont have the money for gas for my elcamino i drive my honda i commute like 51 miles a day. and i want to make my honda faster and more fun. so we shall see. and the whole b series swap is what i had in mind until i found another accord for 100 bucks with a fi motor in it.
i'm reading a couple books that i'll suggest then... now the first 2 chapters you'll think is a complete waste of reading since all it talks about is how horsepower is made, but read them. i guarantee you'll get something out of them. the book is called the high performance honda builders handbook it's an awesome book. i Highly recommend it.
also i'm reading How to tune and modify engine management systems, it's pretty good. it teaches the concepts of tuning quite well. i good bathroom read. and after this one i'm reading a book that should be coming out in april called Engine management: Advanced Tuning haven't heard anything about the book, just read up a little on the author. but ya. read those 2, read up here, look at others problems and make sure you dont do the same.
if youre wanting to go b-series, make sure you have EVERYthing you need to complete the swap before you really dig into the 3g, i've seen too many people have a shell sitting in their garage cause theyre waiting on their motor to get in...
so good luck. :)