A 200hp 200ft-lb Setup possible?

[DDRaptor]

As i sit currently i have a A20A1 with new timing done, new alt. a recent tune up and a new set of wires and plugs as well as a coil cause the idiots who did the timing broke it. :end rant:

I was wondering if it's possible to reach 200hp and 200ft-lb with the following
Weber Carb Not sure which one (need to be schooled)
Pacesetter header
Custom Exhaust (already have it.)
Complelte engine overhaul (or get a new one from IPP) Depends on $$$

new A20a1 or a3's are $1123
Water pump
Valvetrain (valves, springs, seals)
Pacesetter short throw shifter
Trans Cooler
Oil Cooler
Oil Pump
MSD Or Accel Ignition system
Fuel Pump (walbro?)
head work (port matching)
bore block .20 over
custom .20 pistoms not sure what C/R i would run.
camshaft grind stage 1 (paeco power band around 2,500+)

if possible a pulley set.

torque
prelude/integra hybrid tranny
lightened flywheel
New clutch have not picked a brand to many choices.

[MessyHonda]

you wont see any of those numbers with out a turbo or nitrous. even nigh NA builds only make around 160whp...check out openloopscar. if you want the car to be fast you need to start cutting weight off the car.

[rjudgey]

you won't get 200lbft easily a tonne load of work for an N/A build will get you close but realistically turbo would be the only way to get 200lbft of torque.
You'll get 200bhp N/A but you'll have to spend a lot of money and you'd have to run twin Weber DCOE's, some big arse bike carbs, or ITB's with a aftermarket ECU just for starters not to mention needing a custom manifold or at the very least the stock pacesetter one modified with 2.25" main downpipe leading to full mandrel bent 2.25" system. You'd need full headwork with big valve conversion, custom inlet manifold, camshaft would have to be something farily lairy like a 280 degree 11mm lift or more, you could try a 272 degree or less but you'd have to have the best headjob in the world and some fancy valves and you still might fall a little short. You could run 200bhp with stock pistons and rods but the rpm's and power you'd be producing the stock rods will snap after 30-40k miles of hardish driving, ideally titanium B18 rods with customized forged 83mm B18 pistons would would be what you need for that kind of power so that it doesn't blow up horribly after a while, oil coolers on the engine and trans is god idea engine is easy but trans would need a bit of work to add a drain pipe and return pipe onto case with electric oil pump and a cooler and maybe a thermostat on that as well possible and not that expensive or just re-build every 15-20k miles. LSD would be a good idea too while the box is apart and the teg gears make sense as they were designed to take a bit more power than ours and are much better for N/A engine, or turbo with a huge blower on it. Clutch and flywheel are easy only one make to get clutchnet simple as that really nothing else comes close to be as good for the money and even the more expensive stuff is inferior you been told so there. The axles can take the punishment just make sure they are in good health to begin with. Fuel pump if carb i recommend Facet nice and small and fits where stock one goes, you'll need a fuel pressure regulator, and need to change the hoses too. Stock throttle cable and clutch cable are good if not worn out.

The most expenisve bits will be the inlet and fueling system and the headwork needed the above stuff would be looking at setting you back roughly a good $10k and thats if you did most the donkey work yourself!! So if your not that rich and just want bigger carbs and a cam you'd be lucky to get 160-170bhp and 150lbft of torque with the car you have at present and that would still cost you about $2000 in parts for new twin Weber DCOE's and tuning them $2500 or more for new ITB's but bike carbs (secondhand parts) could be done for around $800-1000 depending how cheap you can get a manifold made and how cheap you can find someone to tune them afterwards.

So howmuch you got to spend?

[DDRaptor]

So if your not that rich and just want bigger carbs and a cam you'd be lucky to get 160-170bhp and 150lbft of torque with the car you have at present and that would still cost you about $2000 in parts for new twin Weber DCOE's and tuning them $2500 or more for new ITB's but bike carbs (secondhand parts) could be done for around $800-1000 depending how cheap you can get a manifold made and how cheap you can find someone to tune them afterwards.
So howmuch you got to spend?


wait 2 carbs just to reach 160-170hp???
did you make a typo cause that just dosen't make sense

thanks about the advice about the rods did'nt think about those.

[2ndGenGuy]

wait 2 carbs just to reach 160-170hp???
did you make a typo cause that just dosen't make sense
thanks about the advice about the rods did'nt think about those.

rjudgey does not make typos. Yes you will need 2 carbs to hit that.

[bushbean]

I wouldn't think that enabling a 3Geez to have 200 HP would good for torque steer. My aunt's old Lexus torque steer like hell on wet roads, and it probably had about 200 HP.

[DDRaptor]

lets start here if i took a stock engine and added a weber what would i get.?

[russiankid]

lets start here if i took a stock engine and added a weber what would i get.?
Nothing much. I read that you would notice very small gains, it would be just more responsive. You won't notice huge gains.

[2ndGenGuy]

Also depends on which Weber you add. Either way, you won't notice much.

[AccordEpicenter]

my accord torque steers like a mofo. Maybe you can do a weber DCOE blowthrough turbo setup?? Youd def be making the power then, even with low boost (9-10psi should get you there)

[DDRaptor]

my main goal is stay away from efi and turbochargers.
no offense to anyone with a turbo i just want to keep it simpler.

damn i was serious under the impression that a weber carb woulb get at least 140 out a stock engine.

now i have to rework my thinking.

[DDRaptor]

hey rjudgey sorry about that i searched the forum a little deeper and i found your build for 187 198 and the possible 230. and i saw what you had to do.
I have a few questions
whats an autoquip manifold and where can i find one.
can i get the model number for those carbs so i can do some research.
also if i follow your build



198bhp
Same exhaust as above.
Pipercams 272 degree 10mm lift camshaft.
Twin Moddified Weber DCOE 45's on Autoquip inlet manifold.
Moddified A18 Head built and designed by me. (Big valve conversion using exhuast valves machined to 33mm to fit inot the inlet ports with custom finish, stock exhuast valve size)
Stock RE-built A20 block with patent sealed power 82.7mm A20A1 pistons.

but change the following
I would have a full Exhaust Pacesetter header and already have a mandreal bent system with cat and Muffler 2.25
Use an A20 head with the bigger valves 33 In and 37 out like your bigger powerplant project.
Titanium rods with 10.1 C/R

How much you think that would produce.

[AccordEpicenter]

he has a shit ton of head work into that motor, imo its less complicated to go turbo then mess around with all this na stuff and try to make power, cheaper too

[Estimated Prophet]

Some people prefer NA though.

[DDRaptor]

my personal reason is that everything has to be changed to turbo the right way c/r has to be lower, the stroke length has to be different (depending on the engine and boost psi)

plus na is still legal in the state too lol,

[ghettogeddy]

i hope i hit the 160 - 170 range ill be happy

[88accordSF]

the bigger picture issue is really not about the TOP numbers acheivable by a certain motor, because a lot of import tuners (including me) want a great powerful motor that is RELIABLE.

you could spend a ton of cash to max out an a20 motor. which ~might~ make 200hp with forced induction (supercharger, turbo) and nitrous. but the problem with using that motor, is that for everyday driving, you wouldn't be able to push it to full throttle constantly without tuning it EVERY day... checking the entire motor and potential detonation-causing scenarios EVERY day. realistically, you could push a motor like that to around 150hp, switching gears before redline, and expect solid performance daily.

if you want to stomp with 200hp on your foot available every day, then you need a motor that pushes 300hp. just do a motor swap. you could build a nice motor like you're thinking about, but it'd break way too fast, mainly because the crankshaft bearings, over-bore temperature issues, and a host of other small factors become big players when the weakest link of a hot-rodded small motor is jammed on at WOT. and even then, your transmission will be the next-weakest link, frequently shredding gears, etc.

i've built nitrous, supercharged, turbo'd motors for race applications for over a decade now.

bottomline is, if you want a great motor for your 3rd gen accord that you could stomp on all the time, i would seriously consider and ONLY consider going with this motor swap:

3G ’97-’00 Integra Type R USA B18C5 10.6:1 195hp @ 8000/130lb-ft @ 7500

...then hook up a 5 or 6 speed tranny, throw on a supercharger, possibly nitrous, and you'd be SMOKIN down the road at an easy 300-325hp without a huge headache everyday.

--just 2 cents from a motorhead and professional engine builder

[DDRaptor]

there you have it people my reality check, all you said is true and i don't think theres anything i can do to prevent things like that from happening.
even with oilj/trans cooler and titanium rods it might not be enough to protect it.

hmm. damn nice to fancy the idea, but unless i can find a way to keep it protected and reliable what's the point cause i don't have 2 vehicles.

thanks for bringing back in check.

[88accordSF]

-Running Trick Shift In Transmission

are you running standard or Synthetic Trick Shift?

the synthetic is great stuff!

[DDRaptor]

think it's regular it's awesome, by far the best i've used yet.

so is it possible to achieve 170-200 reliably??
i have to be able to compete with the modern 2.2 and 2.4l putting out an avg. of 175hp

[88accordSF]

hmm. damn nice to fancy the idea, but unless i can find a way to keep it protected and reliable what's the point cause i don't have 2 vehicles.


exactly! that's the right idea!

have your current daily driver, which sounds to be very cool right now, as a reliable driver. grab a 2nd car, just a rolling chassis and shell... and start from the ground up. if you want a pimped out 3rd gen accord, pick a decent body up from whereever locally. build that pimp racer to the MAX. start with a great engine and trans, figure out whether you'll need to buy mounts, or learn how to make them (lotsta learning books available from amazon.com on this subject)...

a good starter approach is to map out the basics of what you'll need.

i'm about to do this myself! i already have a rear wheel drive, rear engine, all aluminum race car, but i'm really wanting to build a tits-out 3rd gen accord sleeper.

here's my list so far for major components needed:

--3G ’97-’00 Integra Type R USA B18C5 10.6:1 195hp @ 8000/130lb-ft @ 7500
---BIM07AG 86-89 Accord for "B" series engines $637.55 (if available)
---Transmission (Y1 or YS1)
--Matching Wire Harness and ECU
--Drive axles
--Shift rod
--Intermediate Shaft ( female ) might also be needed...( depends on the year of the Block ) all 94+ B-Series Blocks have Male Intermediate Shafts which will not bolt into the Place Racing Axles. The Intermiediate Shaft needed comes from either 90-93 B18a/B17a1 Block or JDM B16 Block.
---90-93 or JDM B16 Timing Belt Side Motor Bracket and Rear Motor Bracket

once i get that stuff piled together in the chassis, i'll be able to start thinking about the right suspension, brakes, and tire setup to maximize traction...

i'm drooling on myself already...

[88accordSF]

so is it possible to achieve 170-200 reliably??

no, because you'll be fingering the nitrous all the time to hit those numbers. you can use nitrous responsibly, but bottomline is it will break your motor much faster.

think of it this way:

1. you can wake up, do your day as is with no caffeine. kinda slower around the clock, but you'll live longer.

2. or you can juice up on 4 to 6 expresso shots of coffee a day, whip around really fast for about 20 years, and then die of heart failure.

which the metaphor isn't an exact replica of a motor scenario, the science behind it is pretty similar. you juice up any kinda of motor, and the lifespan will decrease significantly.

[AccordEpicenter]

if you had a good conservative tune, 200whp on a completely stock engine (stock cr, 9.3:1 is boost friendly, even on pump gas) should be pretty reliable so long as its conservative

[DDRaptor]

so bottomline before i go to bed techinally there is no way of using an a20 as a reliable 200hp daily driver with a c/r of 10.1 with a whole new engine just as an example.

high volume oil pump/relocation/cooler
massive trans cooler
ti rods
ti valves, ti valve springs,
high volume oil pump

how long would it last no more 40,000 Miles???

[MessyHonda]

yeah i still stand by my quote.....turbo for 200 hp.....openloop only hit 165whp with his NA motor...with lots of mods.

[DDRaptor]

lol i guess no one else so 2cents to pitch in.

[A20A1]

wait 2 carbs just to reach 160-170hp???
did you make a typo cause that just dosen't make sense
thanks about the advice about the rods did'nt think about those.

I still think a vacuum secondary 4barrel could work in place of two webers but you'd have to spend some time tunning the 4barrel.
Just to back that up I went looking for info on modding 4barrels, especially seemingly oversized ones for the displacement of the motor becasue I was planning on adding a 4bbl to the A20 and it's quite different putting one on a 2liter then a 5 liter.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0511phr_carburetor_boosters_tech/


You'll still need to build a custom intake manifold with either the webers or a 4bbl. You can modify the stock manifold to fit a 4bbl but I'd bet the stock runners will be too small to make the most power at higher rpms.

As to which setup will potentially make more HP in the top end with decent low and mid range, probably the ITB's then the Dual Webers, then the 4bbl.
Better Low to mid range I'd Say ITBS, Vacuum Secondary 4bbl, and then Dual Webers.

bike carbs/ SU type carbs are good all round as well so you might consider them.

[AccordEpicenter]

if your auto i personally wouldnt even think about keeping the auto tranny its gonna get smoked quick. Even if you used all the parts you mentioned i dont think its gonna get you anywhere near 200hp without boost. IF you do go boost i would advise against using titanium rods, i hear they are very hard on the bottom end if you detonate even slightly because they are soo stiff. Whats nice about turbo is that you wouldnt even need to rebuild the engine if its in decent shape to begin with

[DDRaptor]

no yeah i put an prelude/i;ntegra hybrid tranny as part of the list
theres no way i way put that on an auto with a stick at least i can upgrade clutch components .

[DDRaptor]

i know nothin about bike carbs so as it stands right now i have to prioritize this project

first thing i need
is a donor engine or something like that
2nd i need help in learning what carb what i be looking for for the best low/mid top end is aided by my big exhaust.

[nskforlife]

so bottomline before i go to bed techinally there is no way of using an a20 as a reliable 200hp daily driver with a c/r of 10.1 with a whole new engine just as an example.

high volume oil pump/relocation/cooler
massive trans cooler
ti rods
ti valves, ti valve springs,
high volume oil pump

how long would it last no more 40,000 Miles???

I love how people think there isn't any potential for 200hp NA, It can be achieved and still stay together.
have i built an a20 to 200whp, no.
chances are, if youre trying to build a 200whp 10.1cr a20, it's not gonna happen.
higher octane gas is going to be needed, and i'd say an 11-12.1 c/r would be ideal.
the head would have to be machined quite a bit. you're gonna need to flow some massive air thru it. p&p,
the valvetrain, yes will need to beef it up so it can take revs to probably 8k.
i dont know how our crank compares to the ls, but i'd say the ls would be more suited..
regrind the crank accordingly, if you can, use oversized valves.
lightweight flywheel and wheels would be ideal.
fuel injection head will take you there. bore out the throttle body and portmatch the manifold.
blueprinting this motor as far as possible would be ideal.
cc the head. measure ring gap.
if youre wanting every pony out of the motor, you can drill miniscule holes to the top compression ring.
remove ac/ps.
chamfer the rod oiling holes,
micropolish, knifedge and balance the crank.

theres a guy in my area that builds decks so that a longer stroke can be used. they dont seem that hard to make, just have to be very precise and remachine the block, the guy who makes them is taking a b16 to 2.6 liters using an 86mm bore...

but my chances are, i'm posting this in reguards to people whom are all talk and only ideas... hate to say it, but it's true.. :(

[cygnus x-1]

200HP might theoretically be possible, but difficult with only 10:1 compression. You would need two things. First is a very strong and lightweight bottom end that can handle some serious reving. Second is a top end that flows like you can't believe. Could it be driven every day? Sure. Would you want to? Probably not.

C|

[MessyHonda]

yeah with 10:1 its going to get harder after you pass like 150whp.

[bobafett]

I vote that you go hang out with AccordEpicenter for a day and try to get a ride in his car :D. The turbo setup is actually pretty simple, and I sure wouldn't want to maintain a 200whp DD NA A20. :)

But with a turbo car you could have pretty much a stock engine and good safe tune and rock 200whp all day long. :)

But you're right its all personal preference. I prefer power and I love the feeling of boost. But we all know plenty of people who just love the NA kick.

I think for 200 whp, u need to start thinking race gas and REALLY high compression (12:1, 13:1?), which kills the DD ability unless you have a money tree in your backyard I'm sure C16 isn't cheap.

[stat1K]

i love these threads. but hey i've seen a d15b non vtec with dual weber 45's run 14.6's on p29s and the head milled .040. pretty fast SEDAN! my point is a lot is possible but it takes a shit ton of work. now i've also seen a d15b non vtec run 13's *cough* turbo *cough*. and the 13's took way less and cost way less money. turbo ftw that's my .02.

[Tomisimo]

love those threads tho!!!

I thinking what if: take head and take few MM of it, But then you'll need a adjustable CamGear, because by each MM you take away, ignition is retarded by 0.33 degrees. By doing that you'll gain higher compression.
And : Port the head air inn ports, for wider air intake,and port exhaust ports as well, to make engine to bread out more freely. full Exhaust 2,5" all the way
Plus: reinforce the engine with forget rods and oil "rings" at the crank mounts (you know what i mean?) lock of English.

Well I *might be* wrong about all of this, You tell me )))

PS: still learning.

edit: Honda/Acura Engine Performance (http://www.amazon.com/Honda-Acura-Engine-Performance-Kojima/dp/155788384X/ref=sr_1_35/002-2580849-5664052?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190517346&sr=8-35) and Honda Engine Swaps (http://www.amazon.com/Honda-Engine-Swaps-S-Design/dp/1932494561/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-2580849-5664052?ie=UTF8&qid=1190517346&sr=8-35)

[nskforlife]

love those threads tho!!!

because by each MM you take away, ignition is retarded by 0.33 degrees. By doing that you'll gain higher compression.


is this statement true for all motors???
ive been wondering a lil about it..

[knarg]

i want legend master's ls/vtec setup O_O
that would make me happy.

[FyreDaug]

dude just learn turbos and never look back. who was that one guy (I havent been here for ages) who threw a turbo on a stock a20 and bagged it up and down the track making some good numbers?

thats what you should do

[MessyHonda]

dude just learn turbos and never look back. who was that one guy (I havent been here for ages) who threw a turbo on a stock a20 and bagged it up and down the track making some good numbers?

thats what you should do



jason....i think he was running 13.7 on street tires.

[bobafett]

13.7 with 195 street tires, and a stock accord other than a 3" turbo back exhaust and maybe a better clutch. Also that was with a reasonably small t3 turbo I believe.

I'm sure he could pull high 12's with traction alone. If he could shave the 60' down to a 2.0 he would easily be in high 12's. :D Pretty amazing!

[Cant Stop]

one of the sponsors? vendors that people mention here from time to time sorry forgot who can port and polish your head as far as u want it to go top end about 2k$ they were out of north cali or wash state i believe .. dang someone help me here who is it that sells cams and does head work out on the west coast i called them couple yrs ago
so head not too pricey imo for full massaging of the ports.

[FyreDaug]

13.7 with 195 street tires, and a stock accord other than a 3" turbo back exhaust and maybe a better clutch. Also that was with a reasonably small t3 turbo I believe.

I'm sure he could pull high 12's with traction alone. If he could shave the 60' down to a 2.0 he would easily be in high 12's. :D Pretty amazing!

yeah and I dont think it costed that much, how did he run that motor? stock ecu?

im doing up megasquirt on my suzuki swift project

[bobafett]

stock ecu with msd btm and safc/safc2 i believe... i think he had fuel pump, fuel injectors, and maybe an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

pretty basic. that is about as low cost management as you can get that covers all the bases. :)

[FyreDaug]

what was his username again? did he ever blow the thing up? that must be 13-16psi to run 13.7 on stock motor, trans.

everything is so picky about this swift, its a 1.3 im putting a 1.6 block/crank into, figuring out some rods and pistons and hoping to make 200whp with 1bar from a supercharger lol