high speed breaking and shaking

[buttaz1]

ok so i replace my calipers and breaks i didnt bleed the breaks
so i have a lil bit of play
but he is the case for some reason when ever i break and im going fast my car shakes really really bad enough to make my cd player skipp
but here is the kicker when ever that happends i just hit the break harder and it slows down like it should with out any shaking
what could it be? do you think my pads arent applieing even force?
should i bleed or what?

[Hans]

IDK I have pretty much the same problem, except that when I step on them harder they shake more. I've replaced the pads and rotors yet still they shake...:wtf:

[buttaz1]

i dont htink its the wheels because well it would shake when im doing 100mph and stuff
i had a problem with a ford contour but i think it was because the boot was broken or it had a broken mount but i would shake all the time
maybe the book has somehting in it that will help out

[MessyHonda]

IDK I have pretty much the same problem, except that when I step on them harder they shake more. I've replaced the pads and rotors yet still they shake...:wtf:



you should balance your tires...and check for the right air presure

[Hans]

you should balance your tires...and check for the right air presure
I've done that and they're fine. They only ever shake under light/moderate to heavy braking.

[87LXiR]

you should balance your tires...and check for the right air presure

x2. its funny i had the same problem a ways back but when i bought a new set of tires for the front the problem went away. And recently i put a set of 13 prelude wheels (used tires) and the same problem returned. The way i see it is either the wheels are not balanced or the tires are worn unevenly and/or they have lumps on them.

Not saying thats what the problem is just something to look into

[frantik]

mine does that.. but only if i brake hard above 50mph or so. my mechanic said i had probably had warped rotors

[Kelvin]

AHahah high speed BRAKING is much different from BREAKING.

Anyway, check out this site, it has a LOT of info on brakes and how to improve your factory units:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

[buttaz1]

lol im sorry i was just tooooo tired to spell right can i fix this

[buttaz1]

wow that helped alot
i think i f-d up because when i installed everythign i went out for a test drive and i hit the break really really really hard not to skid but smoke came out the fender well
so anyway its ethier that or i boild the break fluid so i was thinking of flushing
the system and putting new fluid in

[2ndGenGuy]

Flush your brake system. If you put on new calipers and didn't bleed, you've probably got some crazy uneven pressure causing the shuddering. And when you put on new brakes, never slam on the brakes right away. Your pads and rotors both need break in periods.

Always bleed your brakes when you disconnect lines. As soon as they get disconnected, air enters the system and you will not have sufficient brake pressure. Why would you do all that work and then not bleed? It's the easiest part of a brake job.

[2oodoor]

yes, you could have warped your rotors the first time you burned in the brakes without letting them break in. Break in meaning letting the pads settle in and pad surface to rotor surface get "accustomed" to one another. Several mild, slow, braking events can accomplish this.

Another thing to watch for,is when you are working with the caliper, be careful how you handle the brake line, in fact it is best to replace them anytime you replace calipers. Those lines have a coiled steel reinforcement inside that can get damgaged so as to pinch off flow inside the line. What happens is ,( esp if they are old, the metal can get a little corroded) it will let fluid pass one way, braking, but not let it flow so good the other way, off braking... which makes the caliper hold on one side against the rotor, not totally releasing, causing it to heat up the rotor as you ride.

Also, I notice that most of the time when turning warped rotors, the spot that is most out of true is about the size of a brake pad. This tells me the rotor actually warped with the car stopped and the pedal applied. That means the rotor did not cool off at the same rate at that point where the caliper was holding tight againsnt it. So... when you brake hard to complete stop, it is good to roll forward a little or put trans in neutral and release the brake pedal so the rotor can cool a second.

[Oldblueaccord]

Check out your front end parts. Sounds like something is loose.

Standard front end check,

1: jack up one side of the car until the tire is off the ground. The oppsite side tire must be on the ground still.
I use the jacking point under the doors.

2: grab the tire in the air at the 3 and 9 o clock postion and shake/rock back and forth. slow at first.
You might need someone to help look underneath. This checks tie-rods,steering rack etc. start kinda slow and work
your way up a little harder. Your looking for loosness/slop. Use common sense of course the steering wheel will move or
the other tire may move if you shake the shit outta it.

3: Grab the tire 12 and 6 o clock. Rock back and fourth.This checks the wheel bearing, ball joints and upper links.
There should be NO slop in the wheel bearings.

4: this check might show ball joints/upper link a little better. Use a pry bar under the tire at the 6 o clock pos.
pry up look for slop looseness while prying.


This is your basic "front end check" any good mechanic should know. It works for all makes and models of cars

try it this way and see what you get. if the tie rods are original or the boots are ripped,missing good chance there worn out.


wp

[88Accord-DX]

More than likely your rotors are warped. When you have them turned, make sure there not beyond specs. Put new pads on anytime rotors are replaced or turned. The strut rod bushings being worn out can cause shaking when braking.

[buttaz1]

well having them turned cost more then 10 bucks id rather spend 20 and get a nother new pair my pads are worn out already the screeching now grrr wtf
and i hope they arent warped

i didnt do a break bleed cuz i was by my self and thats a two people job but what ill do is ill just open the lil valve and hit the breaks for a while unless there is a easier way to flush the break sys?

[Oldblueaccord]

Yeah rotors are cheap and usually they turn them down to thin and they warp right away.

DO NOT just open your bleeder you will let air into the systems and the brakes will be shit. I would just replace the fluid in the master cylinder with new fluid. I use a turkey baster to suck the fluid out of the MC.

If your intersted in really bleeding them search for "one man brake bleeding" theres topics here and on the web.

The rear drum brake adjustment dictates how well your brake pedal feels. If the brakes are not adjusted up to the drum the pedal will travel more on a rear drum system. A quick check of this is how far you can pull your E-brake handle befroe it grabs. It should only be like 4 clicks. I myself find I have to adjust my rear brakes at least 2 times a year to keep the brake pedal firm to my taste.


wp

[Kelvin]

wow that helped alot
i think i f-d up because when i installed everythign i went out for a test drive and i hit the break really really really hard not to skid but smoke came out the fender well
so anyway its ethier that or i boild the break fluid so i was thinking of flushing
the system and putting new fluid in


No, you did a good job. The smoke should be pad compound overheating. That's how you properly bed the brakes, you get them ridiculously hot without stopping.

[Kelvin]

yes, you could have warped your rotors the first time you burned in the brakes without letting them break in.


More than likely your rotors are warped.


Yeah rotors are cheap and usually they turn them down to thin and they warp right away.

I'll say this one time here:

ROTORS, NEVER, EVER warp. EVER.

They get uneven pad deposits. That's it. Don't believe me? Want to argue?

Read this link first:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

[2ndGenGuy]

I'll say this one time here:
ROTORS, NEVER, EVER warp. EVER.
They get uneven pad deposits. That's it. Don't believe me? Want to argue?
Read this link first:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

Dude I will argue this right now. Stoptech brakes are high end brakes. Little tiny 8 or 9 inch rotors that you pay $20 for at AutoZone can and do warp. You can measure the runout with a tool. It physically shows warpage. It happens all the time. You think that the Stoptech guy is talking about every day beater cars? No, most likely he's talking about the race cars and high performance cars that the Stoptech rotors go on.

There's nothing wrong with heat cycling your rotors to try and get the pad deposits off, but SLAMMING your brakes to bed them in is not how it works. Slow, smooth braking from high speeds. And when they start smoking, you're going too far! At that point you're boiling brake fluid and screwing it all up.

Do not base everything that you know on ONE website. Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true.

[MessyHonda]

i got drilled and sloted with AEM pads....stops fine.....i got close to 10k on the set up....has not failed me once.....yesterday i was going for a fun drive.....and i didnt see a corner....i had to hit the breaks because even with my suspension set up i was squeling the tires.....i was prob doing 45 on a downhill turn that you have to take at like 15....it was scary but fun at the same time....you learn what you can and cant do after you reach your limits of the car.

[LX-incredible]

I'll say this one time here:
ROTORS, NEVER, EVER warp. EVER.
They get uneven pad deposits. That's it. Don't believe me? Want to argue?
You're kidding, right?

[buttaz1]

its weird
because the shaking only happends when im doing 45 - 60 only
and the harder i press the less shakage
i think i have air in my lines honestly i just havent had time or cash to buy a break bleed kit

[86AccordLxi]

If you had air in the lines the pedal would be spongy. It'd be REAL obvious.

Alex

[2ndGenGuy]

its weird
because the shaking only happends when im doing 45 - 60 only
and the harder i press the less shakage
i think i have air in my lines honestly i just havent had time or cash to buy a break bleed kit

You don't need a kit. You just need a wrench and somebody to push the pedal. :)

[86AccordLxi]

Yeah, all you need is a flare nut wrench.

Alex

[chickensandwich]

its weird
because the shaking only happends when im doing 45 - 60 only
and the harder i press the less shakage


yup the exact same deal with me, especially when descending hills, it starts shaking like mad crazy.... thats with both sets of tires, my 14's and 17's....

[Kelvin]

Dude I will argue this right now.

You didn't read the link.

Neither did anybody else. :thumbdn:

[Kelvin]

You're kidding, right?

Nope. Read the link. Uneven pad deposits= uneven ROTOR WEAR= which uneducated people refer to as warping. Get the right pads, and you can use any rotors you want, even the cheap ones. Read the link.

[2ndGenGuy]

You didn't read the link.
Neither did anybody else. :thumbdn:

I have read the link before, the site is wrong. Did you read my post?

[2ndGenGuy]

Nope. Read the link. Uneven pad deposits= uneven ROTOR WEAR= which uneducated people refer to as warping. Get the right pads, and you can use any rotors you want, even the cheap ones. Read the link.

So you have uneven wear. The surface of the rotor gets wavy. In other words, the surface of the rotor is no longer smooth. In other words it's WARPED. Dude, don't put all of your brake knowledge in ONE website. It's ONE site with a guy trying to sell his brand of parts.

There ARE many times when you get pad deposits left on rotors that cause pulsing. This happens when you heat the brakes then stop completely, or lock the brakes after heating them up. The heat burns a layer of pad material onto the rotor. This can be fixed, and is NOT warping.

Usually, after they cool you can burn the materials off with some good long, smooth braking. But you also have to take your pads off and sand off the glazing that results. In this case, your rotors will smooth back out, and guess what, THEY'RE NOT WARPED like you said.

If you try this though, and you can't get the pulsing to go away, you get what is a result like I described in hte first paragraph: WORN OUT or WARPED ROTORS.

Don't tell me to read that article again, because I think the article is partially wrong. Reading it doesn't make it suddenly right. Judging by how you are talking about fixing rotor wear, my guess is that you sir, don't understand what you read. You can't add material to the rotor that's been worn away. You can only even the surface out by having them turned. At that point, the rotors can get too thin to withstand heat and can warp, crack and shatter.

Materials, construction and durability are what make a good rotor worth buying. Don't buy cheap rotors if you plan on doing anything more serious than daily driving your car.

[2oodoor]

:Owned:



furthur extending the point that you can't believe everything you find in the entangled www, there are way too many peddlers with search word tackle out there.

Also always get a second opinion when someone gives out advice that involves buying goods and services from them.

[Kelvin]

I have read the link before, the site is wrong. Did you read my post?

Uh, no it's not. Did you see who the author was? BTW, this was NOT written about stoptech products specifically, either. Google the authors name. Once you read about him, I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me that it's a much higher possibility that you're the one who is wrong, and not him.

[Kelvin]

So you have uneven wear. The surface of the rotor gets wavy. In other words, the surface of the rotor is no longer smooth. In other words it's WARPED.

No, it's unevenly worn. Warping is different from uneven wear. One is caused by heat, the other is caused by uneven pad deposits. I have cheap rotors in all my cars. And really nice pads, with high maximum operating temperatures. Why? High max temps= the temp at which pads will transfer a 'print' onto the rotor. If you get pads with a really high max temp, you lessen the chances of this happening, and maintain an evenly wearing rotor.


Dude, don't put all of your brake knowledge in ONE website. It's ONE site with a guy trying to sell his brand of parts.

I didn't, I've also READ SOME OF HIS BOOKS.

http://www.amazon.com/Tune-Win-Carroll-Smith/dp/0879380713/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1924883-1601639?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181222111&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Engineer-Win-Carroll-Smith/dp/0850456282/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-1924883-1601639?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181222111&sr=8-2

They're only some of the most famous books on setting up racecars in the world, or so. But I'm sure you know more than him. Also, he DID NOT WRITE THAT FOR STOPTECH. It has nothing to do with stoptech products, and everything to do with general braking technology.


There ARE many times when you get pad deposits left on rotors that cause pulsing. This happens when you heat the brakes then stop completely, or lock the brakes after heating them up. The heat burns a layer of pad material onto the rotor. This can be fixed, and is NOT warping.

And that means your pads were operating well above their maximum operating temperature, too. Get pads that operate at really high temps, and you've solved the problem. Also, you cannot always fix rotors with uneven pad deposits. Read the link again, and pay attention when he's talking about 'cementite'.


Usually, after they cool you can burn the materials off with some good long, smooth braking. But you also have to take your pads off and sand off the glazing that results. In this case, your rotors will smooth back out, and guess what, THEY'RE NOT WARPED like you said.

Again, you didn't read the article. Uneven pad deposits can change the molecular composition of hte cast iron rotor, causing cementite to build up in the rotor itself. Cementite is harder and more brittle than cast iron, so it will not wear as much as the cast iron sections, resulting in a rotor that appears 'warped' on the lathe, but it's actually just uneven wear caused by uneven pad deposits. What's worse, is even after truing the rotor, it will still wear unevenly, since the cementite can get into the rotor quite a bit, and it wil still wear unevenly.


If you try this though, and you can't get the pulsing to go away, you get what is a result like I described in hte first paragraph: WORN OUT or WARPED ROTORS.

I have the cheapest possible rotors on all my cars, with high performance pads with a high max operating temperature. None of them have had uneven pad deposits, or pedal pulsing. NONE. I read this article about 5 years ago, and ever since trying cheap rotors and good pads, I've had great brakes without any problems.


Don't tell me to read that article again, because I think the article is partially wrong.

Read it again. You obviously didn't read it very well, hence missing out on the whole formation of cementite, and why turning a rotor with uneven wear will not even fix it.


Reading it doesn't make it suddenly right. Judging by how you are talking about fixing rotor wear, my guess is that you sir, don't understand what you read.

I'm pretty sure you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. Carrol Smith has written some of the most successful and important books on racing in the history of automobiles. His knowledge far surpasses mine, or yours, or anybody's on this forum. Did you even bother reading about the two ways that brakes even work? The compression of the caliper, obviously is one, but what about the microbonding that takes place, like velcro, between the pad material on the rotor and the pad itself, which happens thousands of times everytime you brake? Did you even know about that? I'm guessing not. It is THIS reason you can get away with shitty rotors, BECAUSE THEY DON'T MATTER. With good pads, all rotors are doing is serving as a platter onto which the pad bonds with bedded pad material. They also dissapate heat, but that's it.


You can't add material to the rotor that's been worn away. You can only even the surface out by having them turned. At that point, the rotors can get too thin to withstand heat and can warp, crack and shatter.

Any good brake technician will check the rotor to see what the minimum recommended thickness is supposed to be.


Materials, construction and durability are what make a good rotor worth buying. Don't buy cheap rotors if you plan on doing anything more serious than daily driving your car.

Pads are FAR FAR FAR FAR more important. Again, I didn't believe in Carrol Smith's stuff at first either, but now I do. Rotors DO NOT MATTER. Pads do. Read the article again.

[Demon1024]

""ROTORS, NEVER, EVER warp. EVER.""lmao

I had a sable (first car) that i turned the brakes on in my school shop that had 1/4 inch warp in it from side to side my teacher said it was the worst he'd ever seen. ended up getting new rotors after that.

I have the same problem with the high speed braking.changed tie rods, rack and pinion,and rotors i'm starting to think it's my radius rods and wheel bearings that are the culprits

[MessyHonda]

""ROTORS, NEVER, EVER warp. EVER.""lmao






x2

[Hauntd ca3]

Rotors do warp and the rotors are just as import as the pad.
There is a reason that brembo and ap brakes cost so much.
Get a dial indicator gauge with a magnetic base stand and attach it to the
suspension upright.
Set the gauge so that it is at 90 degrees to the rotor and set the zero on it.
Turn the rotor and watch the gauge. A warped rotor will have a high spot on one side and a low spot on the other.
Brake companies spend millions developing rotors and pads to do the job
they are designed for very bloody well.
car manufacturers will spec a brake system to do an adequit job.
They have to be quiet,long lasting and cheap for them to buy.
brembo or other speciallist companies design a brake that will perform way past what you or i will ever need.
My gen 5 sir has good brakes, but the mitsi evo 6.5 i serviced at work today
with brembos made feel sick without even getting the abs to kick in.

[Steve_Si]

Rotors do warp and the rotors are just as import as the pad.
There is a reason that brembo and ap brakes cost so much.
Get a dial indicator gauge with a magnetic base stand and attach it to the
suspension upright.
Set the gauge so that it is at 90 degrees to the rotor and set the zero on it.
Turn the rotor and watch the gauge. A warped rotor will have a high spot on one side and a low spot on the other.
Brake companies spend millions developing rotors and pads to do the job
they are designed for very bloody well.
car manufacturers will spec a brake system to do an adequit job.
They have to be quiet,long lasting and cheap for them to buy.
brembo or other speciallist companies design a brake that will perform way past what you or i will ever need.
My gen 5 sir has good brakes, but the mitsi evo 6.5 i serviced at work today
with brembos made feel sick without even getting the abs to kick in.


Pictures of your Hondas please?

[A18A]

^x2

[Hauntd ca3]

once i can figure out how to do it i will post pics
ca3 is same colour as a20a, but hasthe open headlights. low king springs and advanti racing vallens15/6.5 inch rims.
has factory leather appolstery etc etc.
My gen 5 is just a standard sir.

[A18A]

can we swap interiors pleeeeeeease? =P

[Hauntd ca3]

think i actually have spare set of seats and door cards from one i wrecked.
Drivers seat needs fixed as some of the stitching has let go.

[Steve_Si]

You wrecked a Si Exclusive? Got any more parts? Where abouts are you?

Also if you have pics already, if you send them to me I can post them up here.

[Hauntd ca3]

Sorry dude, wrecked a couple years ago and only have the upolstery left.
Had a mega frontal into a culvert down here in invers.
the cool thing is, only payed hundy fifty for it. it only had 100k on the clock to.
messed up what colour mine is.
Same as a18a's one.
Also have headers and 2 1/4 inch mandreal dent pipe and a k&n pod filter.
Nearly 300k on the clock and still puts hundy5 hp thru the treads

[AccordB20A]

lol steve still is looking for si exclusive parts lol