Before Tearing the Rack and Pinion Apart...

[bushbean]

The rack is off of the car, but it looks unlike a typical rack. Racks that I'm used to seeing has a hard-lines from the valve side to both sides of the piston on the rack shaft. The Accord rack doesn't have these hard-lines at all, and I cannot see how P/S fluid is sent to the piston. Maybe the line is built into the cylinder. Anyone knows or have any suggestion before I start tearing the rack completely apart?

Here is a typical rack:
http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/sb_lg_sidebar-lg-18.jpg

Here is the 3Gee rack:
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13se00_j29.gif

[cygnus x-1]

The outer housing tube is not the actual piston cylinder. There is another internal tube that acts as the cylinder and the fluid flows around the outside of it. Hard to describe without a picture... Ah, here we go:

https://www.hondapartsdeals.com/honda_parts_enlarged_image.php?hp_component_image= 13SB00.012.7.gif&title=Enlarged%20Image%20Part%20for:%20P.S.%20GEAR %20BOX%20COMPONENTS%20from%20PRELUDE%2087%202DR%20 DX%205MT%20KA
https://www.hondapartsdeals.com/honda_parts_enlarged_image.php?hp_component_image= 13SB00.012.7.gif&title=Enlarged%20Image%20Part%20for:%20P.S.%20GEAR %20BOX%20COMPONENTS%20from%20PRELUDE%2087%202DR%20 DX%205MT%20KA

This is from a Prelude but it's the same idea.

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[bushbean]

cygnus,

Did you permanently remove the piston from the rack shaft when you manualized your Prelude rack?

I would think that would prevent any chance of air pressure build up.

[Oldblueaccord]

Our rack is really just like a manual with asisit. Sorta like some small tractors is the only way to explain it.


wp

[Blkblurr]

cygnus,

Did you permanently remove the piston from the rack shaft when you manualized your Prelude rack?

I would think that would prevent any chance of air pressure build up.
the rack and piston are one and the same. The inner seals on the rack make the piston.

[Blkblurr]

Our rack is really just like a manual with asisit. Sorta like some small tractors is the only way to explain it.
wp
All hydraulic steering gears are manual with assist. It is the very nature of how the system works.

[88LXi68]

So glad I have my manual rack in. I must say it is great and it is much easier to steer the car at a crawl or in a parking lot.

[bushbean]

So glad I have my manual rack in. I must say it is great and it is much easier to steer the car at a crawl or in a parking lot.

After my rack is converted, it will be just as good as your man rack. Mine might actually be better because mine will have faster gear ratio, i.e. more sporty.

[Oldblueaccord]

All hydraulic steering gears are manual with assist. It is the very nature of how the system works.

I dont consider the top picture a true manual over hydraulic. It really not meant to be run with out a pump.

I think ours are more like a steering box with hydraulic assiting it.


wp

[cygnus x-1]

cygnus,

Did you permanently remove the piston from the rack shaft when you manualized your Prelude rack?

I would think that would prevent any chance of air pressure build up.

That was the original idea but it turned out to be easier to just gut the valve body. I think it was #28 and #29 from the exploded view of the rack. As long as there is a free path from one side of the piston to the other there is no problem.

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[lostforawhile]

ours is a manual rack with power assist. why did you get rid of the power? as you approach to a certain speed, the power is cut off anyway. most of the time it functions as a manual rack. the power really only functions at low speeds,such as parking. honda wanted to try and keep the feel of it's earlier cars with their sweet manual racks, yet provide assistance with parking in the heavier cars. if you don't like the power,just drain the rack and install it that way. it will function perfectly fine. the gears are greased anyway.

[bushbean]

ours is a manual rack with power assist. why did you get rid of the power? as you approach to a certain speed, the power is cut off anyway. most of the time it functions as a manual rack. the power really only functions at low speeds,such as parking. honda wanted to try and keep the feel of it's earlier cars with their sweet manual racks, yet provide assistance with parking in the heavier cars. if you don't like the power,just drain the rack and install it that way. it will function perfectly fine. the gears are greased anyway.

I'm tire of dealing with leaky rack, worn-out pump, and belt. If the valve body is gutted and shaft greased, or the piston is removed and shaft greased, you would never ever have to worry about your steering going bad again.

My understanding is that the P/S fluid lubricate the rack and pinion gears. Therefore, if you drain the P/S fluid, there will not be any lubrication. If you leave a tiny bit of P/S fluid, there is no guarantee that amount will be enough, and the little bit of fluid might keep the rack shaft-piston from moving freely. Well, that's my theory, anyway; I haven't actually taken it apart yet. I will tear it a:gun: part real soon, though. Then I'd know for sure. It looks like tearing the rack apart won't be too difficult, since I already have the rack out of the car.

[Blkblurr]

I dont consider the top picture a true manual over hydraulic. It really not meant to be run with out a pump.
I think ours are more like a steering box with hydraulic assiting it.
wp
The two racks are virtually the same. One has the lines on the outside and ours have them on the inside. I work for a company that builds automated systems for rack and pinion steering gear assembly and test. Honda is one of our customers.

[bushbean]

Blkblurr,

The picture below shows how Miata guys grind off the piston from the rack shaft.

http://flyinmiata.com/tech/depower/IMG_0104.jpg

I realize cynus-x1 didn't go this far, but this would guarantee no pressure build up.

[Blkblurr]

Yep that will work but it's a lot of work and will evenually wear the inner walls of the tube.

[bushbean]

Piston is grind off and removed completely, so it will not cause any wear on the inner walls.

http://flyinmiata.com/tech/depower/IMG_0110.jpg

[cygnus x-1]

Ahh, see you aren't as lazy as I am. I thought about cutting that thing off but it was too much work and I just wanted to get the nasty greasy mess back together.

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[lostforawhile]

i have too add something now,just got done test driving the hatch with the new rack and pinion, the leaks seem to have solved themselves, with the front end rebuilt,and a brand new rack and pinion,the handling on this car is unreal. i haven't even got the toe redone yet,it's only out a 32nd of an inch. i don't know why the trouble with converting the rack. after going out on the taxiway,and doind high speed manuevers,and S turns, until the paint on the cooler was about smoking, i have to say at high speeds,you can't tell the difference between this and a manual rack. this one is the one from nappa, i noticed though,the power assist seems to take more effort to turn the wheel while parking. with the old rack,you could turn it with a pinky finger. i'm not sure if that was a matter of design, or it was a result of slack in the gears,and worn piston seals making the rack move eaisier, eithier way i like it better this way,the rack is nice and tight, combine that with my new aluminum shifter linkage bushings, and this thing handles and shifts like a race car. i absoultly love the way the shifter is now,no slop whatsoever. just click click click click click

[cygnus x-1]

Aluminum shifter linkage bushings? Did you make those? I thought about doing the same but never got around to it.

That's interesting about the steering rack. If the feel is the same from the manual and powered rack I would still take the manual. It's simpler and the extra effort required at very low speeds doesn't bother me one bit. But that's just me.
And in my particular case I would have needed more than just a rack. Many of the lines were rusted or dried out, and there was no way I was going to replace it all.

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[lostforawhile]

Aluminum shifter linkage bushings? Did you make those? I thought about doing the same but never got around to it.

That's interesting about the steering rack. If the feel is the same from the manual and powered rack I would still take the manual. It's simpler and the extra effort required at very low speeds doesn't bother me one bit. But that's just me.
And in my particular case I would have needed more than just a rack. Many of the lines were rusted or dried out, and there was no way I was going to replace it all.

C|i made the bushing to replace the four pieces one that goes between the shift linkage and the transmission. there is a plastic sleeve and a rubber bushing that goes in each end of that joint, i kept the hard plastic sleeve,one for each side,there is an aluminum pin that goes through the part on the transmission side,it slides through a plastic bushing that goes into each end,then on each end of the pin is machined with a recess where a flat thich washer fits. this all fits up flush with the transmission end of the linkage. you put this together then slide the u shaped piece from the shifter over it,then the bolt goes through everything .. i had a terrible time getting the bolt through from the top, everything had to line up perfectly since the tolerances were so tight,

[Ichiban]

.. i had a terrible time getting the bolt through from the top, everything had to line up perfectly since the tolerances were so tight,


You should have chamfered.

[lostforawhile]

You should have chamfered.i did,tolerances were just tight. worth the little bit of extra effort though. fixed the tiny bolt problem with the shifter torque rod too. broke off the bolt,drilled it out,went to a much bigger 5/16-24 thread,then used an aircraft bolt with a wide head to thread size ratio, redrilled the hole size in the dished washer,works perfectly. there is a ton of material on that piece that sticks out for the torque rod,i can't under stand why in the hell the bolt was so small.

[bushbean]

Just to update, I got the manualized-rack back on the car, and the feel is heavier than expected. Maybe I just need to start going to the gym, but it's definitely a lot heavier than my old manual-steering civic. The worst thing seems to be going backward while trying to turn the steering back to the center. That particular manuever is super heavy. It's like there is too much caster.

I think most girls, grandmas, and girly men simply won't be able to drive it. You definitely have to pay a lot of attention to driving. No using cell phone on one hand and steering on the other! I guess one upside is my car will be less likely to get stolen.

Maybe increasing the tire pressure would help some. Oh well, time to hit the gym.

[LX-incredible]

Increasing tire pressure helps A LOT, but it caused my tires to wear unevenly.

[bushbean]

After increasing the tire pressure from the recommended 26 to 32, the steering definitely feels lighter. I think I'll try going up to 35.

I also noticed very violent backlash. What I mean is that if I release the steering wheel while turning, the steering wheel will very quickly, and forcefully, return to the center. I would imagine if a hand is at the wrong place at the wrong time, there will be a lot of pain. I definitely do not remember such violent backlash in my old manual-steering civic. Do yall have this issue?

[cygnus x-1]

Get the alignment checked out. Too much caster will cause the steering to feel heavy and it will have a strong tendency to return to center. You might just not have noticed it with assisted steering. And caster won't generally affect tire wear either so it might have always been like that.

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[bushbean]

Shop wants 100 bux for an alignment. Since I ain't filthy rich, I need to adjust the caster myself with hand tools.

Caster gauge:
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/604431/1038695444910_struttool.jpg

Query:
What should the caster angle be on an '88 4-Dr? The manual shows: "0 degree 30' +- 1 degree" What does this mean exactly?

[AZmike]

It means the caster spec is be half a degree positive plus or minus one degree. It will be interesting to hear how much you have given how it's been working for you with your manual steering.

[lostforawhile]

yea you need to get your alignment fixed, mine is a little heavy with the new rack,but i know everything is out on my car.,since i rebuilt the front end,and a new rack. when you are going over i belive 10 miles an hour,the rack reverts to manual anyway. the valve in the transmission cuts off power assist. it only operates at low speed and parking. it'll be hard to turn while parking,but should be light at speed. i drove mine for years with no power assist before i found a pump rebuild kit. if you think this one is bad,you ought to drive a big brittish car,like an austin healy with no power assist. lol. you really need to check your lower ball joints,upper ball joints,bearing plate in the struts,etc. you might have a problem with something binding also. does it do this with the wheels off the ground? what about your tie rod ends? are they worn or rusted? basically check everything that pivots with the steering.

[bushbean]

Looks like all of the suspension parts are in good working order. I mean, everything feels tight like it should be, dry, no leaks, and looks good in general.

The wheel turns perfectly fine when the wheel is off the ground.

I wasn't able to procure a caster gauge. Therefore, I arbitrary adjusted the caster rod to decrease the caster. The adjustment nut was turned over 5 times. According to the manual, every turn equals 0 degrees 8' of caster. Could someone tell me how many degrees of caster I did?

I could only feel a tiny bit of improvement, if any, afterwards. Not good. I might just bit the bullet and take it to an alignment shop afterall.

[cygnus x-1]

Check the toe also. I noticed a definite change in the steering feel after adjusting the toe even just a little bit.

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[bushbean]

I need to take back what I said. The steering after 5 turns on the adjustment rod feels a lot lighter. I notice the front wheel is no longer in the center of the wheel well; it's sitting slightly towards the back. I guess that's negative caster.

Still, U-turns are a load to handle. Parking lot, also. I feel like I'm doing jujitsu.

[cygnus x-1]

It may or may not be negative. It all goes by the steering axis, which is an imaginary line through the centers of the upper and lower ball joints. If that line is angled forward at the top you have negative caster. I would expect negative caster to make the steering jittery.

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[bushbean]

I changed the rack back to power yesterday. The heavy steering was just too much to live with on a daily basis. I have to make quite a few sharp turns everyday to work; the way it was steering just wasn't going to work for me. Maybe the wheelbase is too long. Maybe the gear ratio is too fast. I don't know. I do know it's a heck of a lot heavier at low speed than my ol' Civic. However, that Civic was under 2000 pounds, while the 3Gee is closer to 3000. The benefit of this manualized rack is far outweighed by its detriment. Besides, a power rack at the pick-n-pull is only $40. I now simply wish for this post to be a warning to those in the future who might think about manualizing.

p.s. There is definitely a noticeable decrease in acceleration performance after the P/S belt was attached.

[cygnus x-1]

Huh. I must say I'm kinda surprised. But I do have a Prelude and it's not much over 2000lbs, so.... I don't know.

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