random fuel loss

[twistyrider]

Hey all,
I have been reading about the main relay/fuel cut-off problem for the past week. I decided to plunk out the $45 for the thing and well here is the story:

A couple weeks ago my car died so I tracked it down to no fuel getting to the carb. After about an hour or so it started back up. Well it must be the fuel pump I thought since the car has a 145k on it. So I got on the net and found this site (great site by the way). From everything I read the problem was most likely the fuel cut-off relay. I read that the relay shuts down when it gets too hot and that the soldering comes loose with age. Yesterday I drove the Accord down to Autozone after work and picked up the relay I ordered and came home. After relaxing for a hour or so I went out and unplugged old relay and installed the new one, turned on the ignition and the fuel pump DID NOT come on. I took out the new relay and put the old one back in and still no pump action. I left it sit and took the wifes Bonneville to see the fireworks. We got back about two hours later and I tried the car with the old relay in it and the pump came on. That's puzzling!! Could it be the pump after all? A bad CPU? How about vaporlock in the tank? Maybe a loose connection under the dash? I am kind of ruling out the last one since the car was not not moved last night between trying to start it before and after the fireworks.

Please help. I don't want to drive it not knowing when it's going to quit on me.:confused:

[Jeff97FST/A]

Had a similar problem not long ago. It was the fuel pump.
To eliminate any wiring and relay issues, I unplugged the pump and put 12 volts directly to the plug. Pump did not come on.
They're easy enough to replace. Make sure you get a strainer to go with it. Procedure to replace the pump calls for cutting the wires off the factory pump, crimping the supplied lugs onto the wires and attaching the lugs to the new pump. I had to go to Radio Shack to get lugs that fit the terminals on the pump and the gauge wire on the harness - the supplied lugs were way too big. Mark where the pump clamps to the bracket before you remove the old one and reinstall the new pump in the same location - that sets the depth of the pump in the tank. Set it too high and you won't pick up all the fuel in the tank.
I had one other car with an in tank pump. Same symptoms. When they (pump) are going bad they over heat and shut down. After a period of time they cool off and run for a little while and shut down again.
I got my replacement pump from NAPA. Good thing I saved the receipt - I had to get a new pump under warranty; the first new pump died after 30 days.

[twistyrider]

Thanks for the info Jeff. I am pretty sure it's the pump now. I noticed yesterday that it seemed really loud when it ran and today I could barley hear it running. My guess is that the bearings are going bad and it is overheating like you said. I will have to do the test as you said and then go get one soon. I have the luxury of having this car as an extra just to drive to work instead of my gas hog Durango. The only thing is is that I like driving the old accord better than the big D. It's just more fun to drive. I will post my findings when I get a now pump for it.

Thanks again.

[lostforawhile]

there is no need to run power directly to the pump,take out the relay,preferably the old one,slide it out of it's plastic case,you'll see the terminals are marked, one will say + and one will say pump. jumper the + and the pump together,now plug the relay back in,when you turn on the ignition, the pump should run. the pump normally will only run for a second when you first turn on the key,this is to prime the system, once the engine starts,the relay detects ignition pulses from the negative side of the coil,this tells it to turn on the pump. this is a safety feature,if the engine quits,such as a wreck or a fuel leak,the pump turns off. what happens to these cheap pumps,most of them have a plastic impeller, over time that impeller breaks down pumping less and less fuel. also the impeller material will often jam the pump. eithier get a factory pump,or buy one made by bosch,the bosch pump is precision made and has metal parts. vs. plastic. never buy the carter pump at nappa,it's absolute garbage, you don't even want me to go there. it was so bad orelies quit carrying the same pump, so many came back,that carter quit honoring the warranty.

[twistyrider]

Well,
I called my local Advance Auto Parts and ordered a Bosch fuel pump ($65.00). I picked it up yesterday and guess what. It came in a Bosch box but when I looked at it at the store to make sure it was the right one, I noticed that stamped in the side of the metal housing it said CARTER. It was exactly like the one in my car. I asked the guy to make sure it was the pump I ordered and it was. The store manager said he would order another one and see if it was a Carter pump also. That's weird. They did say that it had a lifetime warranty but I don't know how I can prove that it's a Bosch pump if it fails. Anyhow, it my car is working now and the pump is really quiet compared to the one I replaced.

[Jeff97FST/A]

Glad to hear you got it running.

I think my Napa pump is stamped "Carter".

Save that receipt. I had no problem with the warranty return at Napa.....

[twistyrider]

The auto parts guy called and the pump he ordered also had Carter stamped on the side of it. He said either Carter makes the pump for Bosch now or someone is re-boxing it and selling as a Bosch. Either way he says the pump has the lifetime warranty. I expressed concern that it says Carter on the side and he said just keep the receipt and the box it came in and it should not be a problem if it needs to be returned.

I think I am going to call Bosch customer service and let them know that someone is re-boxing that pump.

[twistyrider]

I called the Bosch people today and they were very helpful and friendly. The guy told me that they are having someone else (Carter) make that pump while they re-tool and redesign it. I guess that's an acceptable answer.

The important thing is that Bosch warrantees the for 12 months unlimited mileage. I will have to get the lifetime warrantee from Advance Auto. He said to get it in writing from them.

So there you go.

[twistyrider]

Ok. The pump has failed already. I replaced it on 7-16-07. That means a call to Advance Auto parts on Monday to get a new one coming. I am going to try this only one more time.

Would it be better to just order a Honda pump from the dealer?

[2oodoor]

no / not that much diff...warrenty it and recheck connections & relay n relay socket

[cubert]

Glad to hear you got it running.
I think my Napa pump is stamped "Carter".
Save that receipt. I had no problem with the warranty return at Napa.....

not trying to jack the thread...but :wave: to another NH guy

[twistyrider]

I checked for voltage at the pump and I get a 12v bump when turning on ignition
and 12v when cranking. That tells me that the relay is working fine.

Am I correct in my thinking??

[russiankid]

Have you checked your fuel filter? I doubt the new fuel pump went out already.

[Jeff97FST/A]

Yes, I would bet the new fuel pump went out already, ask me how I know :mad:
When my first pump went bad it was with a new tank and both filters. I'm on my third pump. I'm at the point where I'll just keep a replacement in the glove box with the few tools needed to replace it. Next time it strands me - and I feel confident it will - I can change it out on-the-fly and keep going.
Maybe it's time to work up and alternative.......
Howdy from NH.....

[A20A1]

I wonder if ethanol is eating away at the pumps killing them quicker then they should be, or they could just be crappy to begin with. In any case if you can afford it look for a pump on summit, an external one since that opens up a lot of options, something that is a little more tolerant of ethanol to boot. You'll have to fill the gap the stock pump fits in with extra fuel line.

[twistyrider]

How do you know about them going out so quickly? Do you have a Carter pump also?

Not sure about the ethanol thing but I will be installing a new one tomorrow. The store is replacing it and I am going to try a Master brand pump. The store claims that they have never had a Master pump returned but they have had several Bosch products returned recently. They think it's a poor product quality problem. I don't know. As long as I get a new one for free it's not too bad. I don't drive the car far from home so if I have to have my wife come tow it back when it breaks I won't be to upset. It is kind of wierd that the stock pump lasted almost 20 yrs but now I can't get one to lst more than a month??

I am considering a Honda pump if this happens again. But what's to say that it will last any longer.

[Jeff97FST/A]

I wonder if ethanol is eating away at the pumps killing them quicker then they should be, or they could just be crappy to begin with. In any case if you can afford it look for a pump on summit, an external one since that opens up a lot of options, something that is a little more tolerant of ethanol to boot. You'll have to fill the gap the stock pump fits in with extra fuel line.


That's what I'm thinking - fill the gap, external electric pump after the factory fuel filter, probably a regulator. Not sure at all, but I assume any aftermarket electric pump will operate a pressures higher than a carb needs to see.

[shepherd79]

when you replacing the fuel pump are you replacing the strainer as well?
if you are not using new strainer, it is your problem. you need to use new stainer with new fuel pump.

[twistyrider]

I got another pump from the store without a problem. I got A Master brand pump instead of the Carter. We will see how long this one lasts. Yes I have a new strainer on it as without purchasing a new strainer the warrantee is void.

Thanks for all the responses and comments. It really helps to get some input from other that have had the same things happen.

[Oldblueaccord]

Good luck with the new one.

I would think since its a low pressure (carb) pump just about any generic pump would work even an out of the tank one should cut the mustard. Just in the future if you don't get that one to hold up for you.

wp


EDIT DNS error as usual may be a double post here

[Jeff97FST/A]

Every time I replaced my pump it was with a new strainer.