asking for advice on how to bulid a20

[hanginbyaccord]

I am going to be ordering my jdm a20a with the next month , I plan to put it on the engine stand over the winter and build it. I want to make it a N/a build so no turbo or supercharger.

I am looking for advice and any certain brand on the following:

Short Shifter
Clutch,Pressure Plate, Flywheel
Spark Plugs & Wires
Cam Gears
Cams
Intake Manifold
Pulleys
Throttle Body
Radiator Hoses
Lifters
Motor Mounts/Inserts
Piston Rings
Rocker Arms & Studs
Valve Springs, Retainers
Injectors
Fuel Pump
Fuel Rail
Radiator
Connecting Rods... I heard the eagle H rods from a LS intergra work but what yr?
Head Bolts
Head Gasket
I want to port and polish the head, any advice?
Raise or Lower Deck Height?
How Many angle valve job?

Thanks in advance!

[frantik]

jdm a20? do you mean b20? theres no difference between jdm and usdm a20 engines that i know of cept the a20a4 might have less emissions stuff on it :dunno:

[hanginbyaccord]

well its the only motor I could find to replace my current one . If I could find a USDM one I would do that. I want something plug and play so another a20 is key.

[ghettogeddy]

no junk yards had a 3g just sitting in the yard with a decent motor

[hanginbyaccord]

not sure, I want to know it runs for sure.

[ghettogeddy]

I am looking for advice and any certain brand on the following:
Short Shifter - pacesetter
Clutch,Pressure Plate, Flywheel - clutchnet
Spark Plugs & Wires - ngik
Cam Gears - golden eagle only availiable fron the group buy and i think there $155
Cams - delta 272 or colt tri flow
Intake Manifold - b series
Pulleys - custom only
Throttle Body - whatever fits
Radiator Hoses - stock -custom
Lifters - custom
Motor Mounts/Inserts - custom
Piston Rings stock
Rocker Arms & Studs stock
Valve Springs, Retainers stock
Injectors - whatever fits
Fuel Pump - whatever fits
Fuel Rail - whatever fits
Radiator - koyo
Connecting Rods... I heard the eagle H rods from a LS intergra work but what yr? there the rods from the b18a i think
Head Bolts
Head Gasket - honda oem
I want to port and polish the head, any advice? talk to a shop
Raise or Lower Deck Height? lower i think
How Many angle valve job? 3
Thanks in advance!

[russiankid]

not sure, I want to know it runs for sure.
Well since you are rebuilding doesn't matter if it runs. Good luck on the build. Is there a certain power range you are looking for?

[hanginbyaccord]

250 at most

[frantik]

not sure, I want to know it runs for sure.

you can't get one stateside? just seemed like it would be cheaper cause u dont have to ship accross the pacific but whatever works :thumbup:

[ghettogeddy]

250 at most
ull never hit that without turbo

[hanginbyaccord]

ok, does anyone know where can I get a low mile a20 ?

[hanginbyaccord]

GATES Part # 38030 {Belt Drive Pulley Steel V-Ribbed 4 Grooved (70mm x 17mm x 20.5mm) $25.99 on rock auto, I guess they do make them

[ghettogeddy]

GATES Part # 38030 {Belt Drive Pulley Steel V-Ribbed 4 Grooved (70mm x 17mm x 20.5mm) $25.99 on rock auto, I guess they do make them
thats a stock part

[hanginbyaccord]

ok

[MessyHonda]

this is the stuff openloop used on his 165whp engine. and yeah 250hp is not reallistic with out turbo or nos

A20a3
Standard Ph4 1mm overbore pistons
Stock Rods ARP rod bolts
83.7mmx91mm
Stock valves/springs/retainers
Welded Combustion chambers, P&P head (around 10.5:1 CR)
P&P B16a intake manifold
63mm overbored LS TB
8lbs custom aluminum flywheel
Custom aluminum underdrive crank pulley
256/270 cam or race 289 cam. I have both.
Golden Eagle Cam Gear
Obd 1 conversion
Chipped P75 Ecu
290cc Prelude OBD2 injectors
B&M fuel pressure regulator
MSD 7AL2, and blaster coil
DC sports Header

[snoopyloopy]

ok, does anyone know where can I get a low mile a20 ?
does it matter if you're rebuilding it? if i were you, i'd just head over to local jy and grab an engine there. and while you're at it, grab a 1g teg manual tranny to swap the internals into your accord tranny to get shorter gears = quicker accel.

[2drSE-i]

Short Shifter - pacesetter or DC sports if u can find it
Clutch,Pressure Plate, Flywheel - clutchnet
Spark Plugs & Wires - NGK V-power plugs, Wires (i have a set of wires for sale, PM me)
Cam Gears - golden eagle only availiable fron the group buy and i think there $155
Cams - delta 272 or colt tri flow
Intake Manifold - b16/b18
Pulleys - Easily made by any decent machine shop
Throttle Body - b16/18 and have it bored, again any machine shop
Radiator Hoses - stock/custom easily done
Lifters - custom/OEM
Motor Mounts/Inserts - custom/3m Window Weld filled (lol)
Piston Rings - stock
Rocker Arms & Studs - stock
Valve Springs, Retainers - stock/from a different model (there is research beign done as to whether different models have stronger springs.
Injectors - DSM
Fuel Pump - walbro 255 lph
Fuel Rail - kinda custom
Radiator - koyo
Connecting Rods... I heard the eagle H rods from a LS intergra work but what yr? there the rods from the b18a i think
Head Bolts - ARP
Head Gasket - honda oem
I want to port and polish the head, any advice? talk to a shop
Raise or Lower Deck Height? lower i think
How Many angle valve job? 3

[MessyHonda]

whole rebuild is going to be like 1k-2k depending on how crazy you go with it.

[snoopyloopy]

idt he'll be down for that. i kinda get the feeling he thought he was buying a civic. or at least a 4g, where you can easily swap your way to more power.

[cygnus x-1]

Go to a local junkyard and look for a wrecked Accord. I say wrecked because if it was wrecked that's probably why it's there and there is a good chance the engine was still running. Or if you can find one with under 150k miles it will likely be just fine anyway.

There are only a few critical pieces that you need to be sure of when you start the rebuild. Those would be the block, head, and crank. The block needs to be free of cracks and other damage and the cylinder bores need to be sufficiently close to stock so as to not need a major re-bore. If you plan to use stock Honda pistons then the bores need to be no larger than 83mm. Otherwise you'll need after market pistons, in which case you'll have to go forged for the kind of power you want. Any engine under 200k miles will likely have a usable block. The head should also be free from damage (warping, cracking) and the cam seats need to be in spec. This should be no big deal with any engine under 200k miles. The head surface should be milled true no matter what to ensure proper head gasket sealing. The crank needs to be straight and the journals free of damage. Again, any engine with less than 200k miles should have a good crank.

Most of the other parts (that could be worn out) you will probably replace anyway for a serious rebuild. All bearings, seals, pistons, rings, oil/water pumps, hoses, belts, should be replaced. New ARP head and rod bolts are cheap and good insurance. The cam would be sent out for a regrind. Rockers should be replaced. Valves can be reused if they're in good shape. Valve springs can be reused if they are in good shape but you should consider getting springs from an A18 (Prelude) head since they are stiffer. You could also do a big valve conversion but that would require major custom work and you would obviously need new valves.

The best course of action would be to go find a lower mileage wrecked car at a junkyard and pull the entire engine and trans. Disassemble everything and have the major components checked at a reputable machine shop and then go from there. Even if you end up with some bad parts it's not that big a deal since Accords are plentiful and cheap at junk yards.

Once you have a block, head, and crank you can start on any machine work and begin ordering parts. You haven't mentioned whether you will be doing any of the work yourself or what kind of budget you have. If you are having a shop do most of the work be prepared to spend some serious cash, maybe a few thousand. Engine work is not cheap if you want it done right. If you can at least do the assembly that will help quite a bit.

I wrote a huge thread about my rebuild over on Prelude Power. The first post has a list of most of the parts I used and machine work done along with the sources and prices.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238337&highlight=a20a1


C|

[87LXiR]

According to their website they can custom make stroker kits for any car, but you should call just to make sure. www.paeco.com, of course you probly need some serious cash. Good luck

[hanginbyaccord]

Go to a local junkyard and look for a wrecked Accord. I say wrecked because if it was wrecked that's probably why it's there and there is a good chance the engine was still running. Or if you can find one with under 150k miles it will likely be just fine anyway.

There are only a few critical pieces that you need to be sure of when you start the rebuild. Those would be the block, head, and crank. The block needs to be free of cracks and other damage and the cylinder bores need to be sufficiently close to stock so as to not need a major re-bore. If you plan to use stock Honda pistons then the bores need to be no larger than 83mm. Otherwise you'll need after market pistons, in which case you'll have to go forged for the kind of power you want. Any engine under 200k miles will likely have a usable block. The head should also be free from damage (warping, cracking) and the cam seats need to be in spec. This should be no big deal with any engine under 200k miles. The head surface should be milled true no matter what to ensure proper head gasket sealing. The crank needs to be straight and the journals free of damage. Again, any engine with less than 200k miles should have a good crank.

Most of the other parts (that could be worn out) you will probably replace anyway for a serious rebuild. All bearings, seals, pistons, rings, oil/water pumps, hoses, belts, should be replaced. New ARP head and rod bolts are cheap and good insurance. The cam would be sent out for a regrind. Rockers should be replaced. Valves can be reused if they're in good shape. Valve springs can be reused if they are in good shape but you should consider getting springs from an A18 (Prelude) head since they are stiffer. You could also do a big valve conversion but that would require major custom work and you would obviously need new valves.

The best course of action would be to go find a lower mileage wrecked car at a junkyard and pull the entire engine and trans. Disassemble everything and have the major components checked at a reputable machine shop and then go from there. Even if you end up with some bad parts it's not that big a deal since Accords are plentiful and cheap at junk yards.

Once you have a block, head, and crank you can start on any machine work and begin ordering parts. You haven't mentioned whether you will be doing any of the work yourself or what kind of budget you have. If you are having a shop do most of the work be prepared to spend some serious cash, maybe a few thousand. Engine work is not cheap if you want it done right. If you can at least do the assembly that will help quite a bit.

I wrote a huge thread about my rebuild over on Prelude Power. The first post has a list of most of the parts I used and machine work done along with the sources and prices.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238337&highlight=a20a1


C|

Not sure on my budget yet, buliding it over the winter but I think it would be easier and cheaper to buy a low mile running a20 and modify it slowly over the winter. i might go the route you suggested if I cant find a good motor. 90% of the work I will be doing myself.

[snoopyloopy]

Not sure on my budget yet, buliding it over the winter but I think it would be easier and cheaper to buy a low mile running a20 and modify it slowly over the winter. i might go the route you suggested if I cant find a good motor. 90% of the work I will be doing myself.
well, are you going to rebuild it or not? if you rebuild it, the mileage is less important since i presume you'll at least hone the block and change bearings/seals. by time you do that, it's about as good as new. and buying one of those "jdm" engines off ebay may give you a low-mileage engine, but i'd only go that route if i was going to drop it straight in without a rebuild. and beyond that, you have to pay shipping, whereas your local jy won't have shipping and will probably refund you a core charge if you bring back the other engine = much cheaper.

[hanginbyaccord]

I want to rebulid it but that would probally cost more than buying a running engine and just putting it in. If I do decide to rebulid the motor in my car where would I start? how much am I looking at ? what all would need to be done? hone ? It has 266K on it but runs perfect, could I rebulid it to make it more stronger and etc?

[MessyHonda]

I want to rebulid it but that would probally cost more than buying a running engine and just putting it in. If I do decide to rebulid the motor in my car where would I start? how much am I looking at ? what all would need to be done? hone ? It has 266K on it but runs perfect, could I rebulid it to make it more stronger and etc?



if you want to keep the cost low just get bolt on mods like Cold air Intake, Headers, Exhuast, Bigger cam and adjustable cam gear.


i only have cold air intake,4th gen sensor, adjustable cam gear and exhuast with cat and muffler and my car is making 3 more hp to the crank than stock.....and my engine has 147k miles on it.

[snoopyloopy]

i only have cold air intake,4th gen sensor, adjustable cam gear and exhuast with cat and muffler and my car is making 3 more hp to the crank than stock.....and my engine has 147k miles on it.
hahaha :lol:

but yes, like messy said, get the full compliment of bolt-ons. header, intake, exhaust, cam gear, cam, and b16 im should just about max out bolt-ons. you could do that on the engine you have now if it's running good and strong. do a compression test and if it check out ok, i wouldn't worry too much about a rebuild or replacement motor just yet.

[MessyHonda]

^^^^lol....one day i will be making b20 power on my a20

[hanginbyaccord]

yea , I might just do that. a compression check. What should it check out too? I still want to doa rebulid just so I know everything is good.

[rjudgey]

Short Shifter - pacesetter with modified main pipe to 2.25"
Clutch,Pressure Plate, Flywheel - clutchnet all the way
Spark Plugs & Wires - I like Nology silver resistorless plugs splitfire leads
Cam Gears - See group buy if any left
Cams - anything with 272 degrees or more of duration and 10-11mm lift
Intake Manifold - custom with ITB's or Weber DCOE's
Pulleys - Just use stock and have the P.S. and A/C pulleys machined off and fit a trigger disk for aftermarket ingnition
Throttle Body - won't need one as you'll have four
Radiator Hoses - stock are fine just get new ones
Lifters - oem are fine upto 8500rpm you have no choice anyway
Motor Mounts/Inserts - Beef up the bushes in the torque bar on top of engine i used duck tape wrapped around the bush then used some wd40 on it and bashed it in place with metal mallet
Piston Rings - Sealed power, or total seal if you can get away with burning a bit of oil (race use only really unless your hardcore)
Rocker Arms & Studs - same as lifters stock are fine
Valve Springs, Retainers - upto 8k rpm carbed 2nd Gen prelude springs and retainers
Injectors - won't need em if using webers or ITB's can have any size
Fuel Pump - Not sure what are good makes in U.S. Facet maybe or Holley?
Fuel Rail - will come with ITB's or webers use rubber hose nice and cheap!!
Radiator - Stock new one or rebuilt are still more than upto job as copper cored
Connecting Rods - eagle H rods for B18 steel or better titanium
Head Bolts - Convert to studs using ARP
Head Gasket - honda gaskets are rubbish use Felpro Blue only
I want to port and polish the head, any advice? Look on my cardomain site that will give you some ideas then send me a e-mail
Raise or Lower Deck Height? - Shave the head and deck .5mm on deck upto1mm on head but you'll need the cam pulley to correct timing on camshaft
How Many angle valve job? 5 angles with radiused edges

Added to your list:
Valves - exhaust valves converted to inlet valves at 33mm custom made exhaust valves at 37mm in diameter
Pistons - Forged using 83mm bore size pistons from B18 teggy engines custom crowns with flat top and only 3 matching valve pockets from JE or Wiseco will do
Wrist pins - custom titanium from Paeco
Ignition - Mega Jolt if carbed or injection with Megasquirt for ECU for EFI

That little lot with a good tune will see you to nearly 250bhp at the flywheel but will set you back probably around $7-10k in parts and machining work alone depending on who you know and prices you can get.

If you want 200bhp flywheel which is bit more easily and a lot more cheaply attainable then you need the following

Engine re-built with stock Honda parts, honda rods shot peened and polished with titanium wirst pins, all rotating assembly all balanced and piston rings from Sealed power hand gapped to the best end gap possible (will give you specs), little extra bore clearance on the piston to cylinder gap.
Block is still decked .5mm
Head still shaved 1mm
Headwork still with big valve conversion little bits of welding, 5 angle radiused valves seats and custom inlet manifold like the one on my cardomain site
ITB's or Webers
Pacesetter Header with 2.25" main pipe conversion
2.25" mandrel bent exhaust or better design a straight through and out the middle setup
Camshaft with cam gear
Ignition and ECU if going ITB's
Rev limiter set at 7-7500rpm any higher stock rods will break at the neck
Air cooler for engine oil
Teggy gearbox conversion with lsd maybe
Still use clutchnet kit
And reinforce engine mounts
The above will be good for easily 200bhp with someone who can tune the Air to fuel ratio properly if you have to run a cat then maybe a little less. All depends how good the headwork turns out really can make a difference of making only 190bhp to making 210bhp!!

So there you go i have spoken P.S. if you rag on the engine a lot and don't stick to 7krpm the stock honda rods if new will last about 30-40k miles before they'll snap off at the neck you don't need ARP rod bolts stock ones are as strong if not stronger than ARP ones. If you use titanium wrist pins this will increase mileage and rpm limit on stock rods as they have a lot less weight on the top of the rod necks compared to steel pins.

[cygnus x-1]

I want to rebulid it but that would probally cost more than buying a running engine and just putting it in. If I do decide to rebulid the motor in my car where would I start? how much am I looking at ? what all would need to be done? hone ? It has 266K on it but runs perfect, could I rebulid it to make it more stronger and etc?

Dropping in a running engine will always be cheaper, but that's because it's a used engine. When you rebuild you have effectively a new engine.

As for whether or not to rebuild the engine you have now; I would say no. I say this because junkyard engines are dirt cheap, and you can take your time working on the rebuild while still driving the car. Then when you're ready just swap engines. I found a complete engine for $90 on ebay that was within 2 hours drive. Now in my case I was unlucky and couldn't use that block because it needed too much of a rebore to be able to use OEM Honda pistons. Had I used after market pistons it would have been fine though (long story).

You could take your chances and try to find a good low mileage engine and just do a few mods to it and then drop it in. But again, it will be a used engine and the chances of something going wrong are higher. And if you only want to do a few mods then you may as well just use the engine you have already.

Cost will vary greatly depending on the work that needs to be done and what parts you put into it. Assembly is pretty straightforward, but can you do machine work yourself? Valve grinding, cylinder honing/boring, head porting, balancing? Those are the things that really jack up the cost. If you look at the link I posted it has the cost listed for the machine work that I had done during my rebuild. As for total cost, it could run from maybe $500 for just a simple gasket/re-ring job to many thousands for a high performance race build. These are very rough cost estimates though as it's impossible to predict the cost unless you have a plan for what parts and work are needed.

C|

[hanginbyaccord]

thanks

[89T]

Pistons - Forged using 83mm bore size pistons from B18 teggy engines custom crowns with flat top and only 3 matching valve pockets from JE or Wiseco will do
Wrist pins - custom titanium from Paeco

for clarification purposes, You are saying 83mm b18 pistons and rods are a direct fit for the a20 or they are a direct fit with modification to the valve pockets.
the reason i ask is this is a huge Grey area in this forum.

[rjudgey]

Depends on the rods your going to use, if your going to get aftermarket rods the piston pins are different size so an option is to get B18 pistons but as the crowns are designed for 16 valve they'll be different positions and extra pocket for the extra valve that we don't have. To be honest your just better off ordering the ones from Diamond if your after high CR then get them to make a set with just 3 valve pockets and not 4 to keep it nice and high as possible, if your turbo charging then doesn't matter go with the design they have allready.
Some one here has checked B18 rods with B18 pistons the height checked out fine it was just because it was a smaller B18 piston so was real sloppy in the cylinder which was 82.75mm. but B18 pistons can be bought in 83mm over size so in theory this would fit but as i said you'd have to get blank crowns and have them custom pocketed to get a nice fit and CR ratio.

[89T]

don't get me wrong i do have 10.5:1 JE pistons with Eagle H beam rods. I am looking for definite clarification on this for the 3geez community it self.
i also was questioning why my pistons were made with 4 valve pockets.(you answered that for me thanks)
I purchased the JE pistons from a member on 3geez, and i lost the box and documentation when i moved. I am going to start another turbo build and this would point me in the right direction for my next set.

To be fair: b18a/b 83mm pistons adjoined with proper b18a/b aftermarket rods will defiantly work for an A20 build.

you have enlightened me and the community my thanks to you sir!

[MessyHonda]

the only thing is that...you wont know what the CR will be with aftermarket b-series pistons...i seen some go as high as 12:1

[89T]

the bore and stroke will be the same,the only difference would be the head volume.
anyone know the cc difference between the two?