Carb, Valves, or Head Gasket?

[PintleCrook]

I have an 88 accord dx, carbureted as my only vehicle.

About a week back I changed out the passenger side cv axle. Upon putting it back on the ground, it wouldn't start. So I messed with it a while and noticed that the previous owner had the coil wired up real messy, and I knocked it loose when I was refilling the manual transmission lube. (I also spilled quite a bit of the lube due to a crappy fill pump, might come into play later)

So I put new ends on the leads going to the coil, and after a few minutes of praying and cursing it started. But only barely, it was running rough (understatement), I had to keep my foot on the gas to even keep it running. So after driving it around the block to see if it might just need to warm up a second and get some fluid pumping, I turned it off. I checked underneath the car and the catalytic converter was glowing red hot.

So I thought I had found my problem, a clogged converter. So I took the old one off and started it up to see if that was the problem (I promise I will replace it later). The engine ran slightly better, but not much. So I checked my plugs, fouled, so I changed plugs, rotor button, cap, and wires. It ran better for a minute then just fouled out the plugs again.

So I am guessing it is running too rich (which would explain the fuel detonation in the converter), but how would anything I did have triggered this?

Now I have been searching the forums for about a week, and it has helped me a lot to diagnose. I just now got permission to post, so I will update the situation:

I tested for vacuum leaks with cleaner off and vacuum caps on the ports. Used a whole bunch of carb cleaner everywhere, nothing. Changed the coil, checked voltage to the coil and to the thing inside the distributor (stator.... I forgot the name). Just changed fuel filters. I rented a vacuum pump (autozone does have some uses) and the needle jumped from 14-18 at idle, and as I revved it up it varied from about 5-18 (ahh). So from the chart, this probably means I have some valve trouble or a bad head gasket.

So I checked my timing, not much room to move the dizzy so I never got it close enough to even find the timing marks, but nevertheless I noticed that the oil leak starts from head gasket down, and there was some fresh oil seeping out. I am not too scared of a blown head gasket, I can fix that. But i am really afraid that I have a bad piston ring, or a burned valve. If so i am not going to bother. The reason I suspect the valve problem, is that number 2 cylinder consistently gets a very sooty spark plug (black and carbon fouled). Also, I still have the cat off, and I was talking to someone today who said that 4cylinder cars need backpressure from the exhaust to run right. Am I possible causing my problem by leaving the cat off b/c I don't want to foul a new one.

Sorry for the long-windedness, thanks in advance guys. I really don't want to have to get rid of this thing.

[PintleCrook]

Should I run a compression test, and maybe try hotter plugs? Or would adjusting the valves help at all? I don't hear any tapping, but from the look of this engine, the past owner didn't keep the thing maintained the way he should have, especially in the adjustment of valves. Anyway i will stop talking and let you guys fhave a chance to respond :)

[labeledsk8r]

did the car run fine before you did the axels?? at first it sounded like mayby the coil wasnt grounding corectly but you said you tested it so im kinda stumped, the coil not giveing full spark is what i thought would case it to give it to much gas, you pressing the gas increased the spark enough to keep it running but also dumped more gas in there, this can also burn up the plugs, i dont know what the timeing stuff would be about and the oil leaks well almost all these od accords have some type of leak unless there taken extreamly well care of or rebuilt, but a compression test never hurts. but check the wireing on the coil make sure its grounded out corectly, i have seen this problem happen on 240sx's and it sounds almost exactly alike on the running part, goodluck

[HondaBoy]

so, what was the condition of the car prior to replacing the axle shaft? did it run? and how did it run? i dont see how the converter would clog so quickly unless it was running like crap before. my car runs quite rich and the converter still works pretty well. is the idle lumpy when it is able to stablize? if you can get the car to stay on by maybe rasing the idle on the carb, see if the primary barrel is dumping fuel at idle. sounds somewhat like what i've experienced but not sure. as far as the head gasket, it may not be that. could be a cam seal or distributor seal leaking down the side. always thought it was a gasket problem on my car, but was a couple of seals plus a clogged pcv valve letting too much pressure build up in the crank case and blowing the gaskets and seals out everywhere

[lostforawhile]

are the plugs black and sooty and dry? or oily? black and sooty and dry is rich,if you had a bad piston ring they would be oily. you are def dumping way too much gas,thats why the converter is glowing. have you checked the three hoses going to the air jet controller? thats the thing attached to the strut tower,with the three hoses labeled a--b-c on it. make sure both ends are connected,you could have bumped it. with the vaccume reading you say i think you have a vaccume leak. also check the hose from the brake booster from where it comes out of the manifold to the booster. that can cause a major vaccume leak. check really carefully for a leak, i think you bumped something while doing the axle.

[PintleCrook]

yeah I definately checked the vacuum controller as I heard that it messed with idle speed. The car was running like a top engine-wise before I did the axle. The previous owner never fixed problems, he found ways to get around them. For example, instead of replacing the ignition switch, he by-passed it with a toggle switch that wires into the starter (keys still have to be in, just won't crank by the key). He was a smart guy, just did some ghetto things.

The ignition coil he was running was an accel tower type coil.... so the wiring on it I can't just check. I am pretty sure that I rewired it all correctly, but maybe I got a wire mixed up when I did it....though I doubt it. I have checked and rechecked for vacuum leaks and loose hoses near the air controller and the big vacuum box... I'm was about ready to give up, but the fact that you guys think it could still be something besides a bad ring or head gasket bodes well. The spark plug is dry and carbon fouled, not oily. And the vacuum booster was one of the first places I checked for vacuum leaks.

So no danger in leaving the converter off for now (I'm not driving it). Yeah it starts up and stabilizes now, but the idle is super lumpy. If it is driven at all it backfires and jerks/surges violently. The only problems before I touched it was the clickety-clack of that axle.

Once again I am getting drawn to that coil.... can someone direct me to a page detailing how an aftermarket tower type coil is supposed to be wired in (is there supposed to be an external resistor, what kind of primary and secondary resistance are those supposed to put out)?

EDIT: found the link in FAQ about wiring up the ignition coil....but it doesn't work. Started an admin ticket about it.... but in the meantime I am sure there is another source?

[lostforawhile]

yeah I definately checked the vacuum controller as I heard that it messed with idle speed. The car was running like a top engine-wise before I did the axle. The previous owner never fixed problems, he found ways to get around them. For example, instead of replacing the ignition switch, he by-passed it with a toggle switch that wires into the starter (keys still have to be in, just won't crank by the key). He was a smart guy, just did some ghetto things.

The ignition coil he was running was an accel tower type coil.... so the wiring on it I can't just check. I am pretty sure that I rewired it all correctly, but maybe I got a wire mixed up when I did it....though I doubt it. I have checked and rechecked for vacuum leaks and loose hoses near the air controller and the big vacuum box... I'm was about ready to give up, but the fact that you guys think it could still be something besides a bad ring or head gasket bodes well. The spark plug is dry and carbon fouled, not oily. And the vacuum booster was one of the first places I checked for vacuum leaks.

So no danger in leaving the converter off for now (I'm not driving it). Yeah it starts up and stabilizes now, but the idle is super lumpy. If it is driven at all it backfires and jerks/surges violently. The only problems before I touched it was the clickety-clack of that axle.

Once again I am getting drawn to that coil.... can someone direct me to a page detailing how an aftermarket tower type coil is supposed to be wired in (is there supposed to be an external resistor, what kind of primary and secondary resistance are those supposed to put out)?

EDIT: found the link in FAQ about wiring up the ignition coil....but it doesn't work. Started an admin ticket about it.... but in the meantime I am sure there is another source?
don't give up this is something stupid,if it ran fine before you messed with the coil wiring it's probably the coil. the engine wouldn't just go bad. now that you mention the backfire and the bad idle, i'm positive it's your ignition. the spark is really weak and not igniting the mixture properly. all that excess fuel is getting into the converter. can you get ahold of a stock coil with the plug attached to it and rewire it back in? that would tell you right away,get some new plugs and regap them too. use the ngk V power. it's also possible that coil has damaged the module inside of the dizzy. i've heard of that before,i know a lot of people have run aftermarket coils,but i wouldn't trust hooking one to those electronics without a box in between. check one more thing,see if you knocked the hose off the back of the oil pan, thats part of the pcv system and if it's loose it causes a major vaccume leak. i was thinking since you had been near thatere with the axle. while you are at it check the hoses all the way up to the pcv valve. l

[LX-incredible]

I agree with lost. The ignitor on the hitachi distributors is very prone to failure with aftermarket coils. The unburned fuel is later burnt in the cat, causing it to glow.

[lostforawhile]

I just thought of something,some of those accell tower type coils were designed to run on american cars with a ballast resistor, if it was it will work for a while then the coil will start overheating and start to fail.

[LX-incredible]

Aren't the ballast resistors usually for use with points? You would be increasing resistance, decreasing load on the ignitor, but not by much...

[A20A1]

Also, I still have the cat off, and I was talking to someone today who said that 4cylinder cars need backpressure from the exhaust to run right. Am I possible causing my problem by leaving the cat off b/c I don't want to foul a new one.


Car can run smooth with just header, just very noisy

[A20A1]

Have you checked the ground wire bolted to the thermostat housing and the ground wire to the battery and cleaned the battery connections/terminals

[lostforawhile]

I agree with lost. The ignitor on the hitachi distributors is very prone to failure with aftermarket coils. The unburned fuel is later burnt in the cat, causing it to glow.if you want an aftermarket coil with the hitachi,you need to run an ignition box,then the ignitor is only triggering the box. i would check and see if somone has a used ignitor or used dizzy with one in it for sale. a lot of the hitachi dizzys on hondas use the exact same ignitor with different part numbers. i ran one from an 81 civic in my 86 accord hatch for years with no problem. is your tach needle acting screwy? thats one sign of a failing module. best bet for you in the meantime go to a junkyard pull a coil with the wires still on it and splice them back in also get a module.

[Oldblueaccord]

Try and make sure you have the positive and negative wires correct on the coil you may have the polarity wrong. I dont think it will run this way but double check. You may have a wire missing there as well.

Besides the coil mess....Make sure the choke is open fully. The plugs may need to be replaced if there fouled as bad as you said.

If you can while its running tap around on the carb with a rubber hammer or a smallish wrench the float maybe stuck open and flooding the carb out.

Keep an eye on your oil and the condition of it with it running as rich as you say it could get into the engine oil and ruin your motor.

wp

[labeledsk8r]

if you want an aftermarket coil with the hitachi,you need to run an ignition box,then the ignitor is only triggering the box. i would check and see if somone has a used ignitor or used dizzy with one in it for sale. a lot of the hitachi dizzys on hondas use the exact same ignitor with different part numbers. i ran one from an 81 civic in my 86 accord hatch for years with no problem. is your tach needle acting screwy? thats one sign of a failing module. best bet for you in the meantime go to a junkyard pull a coil with the wires still on it and splice them back in also get a module.

i disagree or partly, i know that the blaster 2 coils and similar accel coils can be ran with no balast (only for cars with points) and with no ignition box, im not sure what coil he is talking to and might not work like this but i have stuff straight from MSD saying that there will be no problem on the 3 geez curent stock setup due to it should still pull the smae amount of power just put out more and i have seen many 3geez run the coil only setup for years without trouble, but mayby its a difrent coil im not familer with and lost you do know your stuff better then i so dunno... but defently check out the wireing, theres a how to on after maket coil wireing on here some place i will find that and post it up so you can double check the wireing

[labeledsk8r]

heres the how to thread on installing an aftermarket coil good luck
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57448

[PintleCrook]

I checked the wiring of the coil today before I got a ride to school. Yeah its fine. I'm going to check the resistance of coil again, and then the ignitor. If the ignitor is bad, would it even start? When I checked the ignitor last time I couldn't get it to read battery voltage with the ignition on...but i just put it off to the ghetto starting switch thats in there.

What is something else I can check with the ignition switch on to see if bat volts do get out before i throw that toggle?

Thank you so much for the help guys.

EDIT: Oh and yeah I tapped on the carb/ did most everything except actually adjust the carb because there is no way it all of a sudden just got out of adjustment, I don't want to adjust the carb to an out of tune ignition system. I don't think the tach is acting too weird, and yeah i have kept the battery pretty clean. I will go through all of the connections again when I get off work. Ouch fuel in the oil.... yeah I will try to keep an eye on that for sure, thanks.

[lostforawhile]

i disagree or partly, i know that the blaster 2 coils and similar accel coils can be ran with no balast (only for cars with points) and with no ignition box, im not sure what coil he is talking to and might not work like this but i have stuff straight from MSD saying that there will be no problem on the 3 geez curent stock setup due to it should still pull the smae amount of power just put out more and i have seen many 3geez run the coil only setup for years without trouble, but mayby its a difrent coil im not familer with and lost you do know your stuff better then i so dunno... but defently check out the wireing, theres a how to on after maket coil wireing on here some place i will find that and post it up so you can double check the wireing
what i was saying is some of those coils can be ordered for both a ballasted system and a non ballasted system. could be the wrong one, even some aftermarket coils are designed to only run on a certain ignition box, some MSD coils for example. as far as the aftermarket manufacturers saying it will work with our cars,thats fine but which dizzy? the tech is a lot more durable then the Hitachi. it also has a better heat sink. i've heard other people say that the hitachi has been damaged by other coils. one thing interesting in this,in early hondas that have basically the same ignitor, there are dire warnings to make sure the unit has heat sink grease or it will burn out if non in contact with the dis metal to sink away heat. fast forward to our cars,same ignitor, and an engineering shortcut puts the ignitor up on standoffs with no way to transfer heat to the metal of the dizzy. so basically the hitachi is running stressed and overheated all the time. thats probably why it's more prone to failing from a higher current load from an aftermarket coil. correct me if i'm wrong but I believe the tec ignitor is attached to the dizzy case with a seperate pickup. anoter trick if you put in an aftermarket box connect it to the positive and negative coil wires if possible to do so, some aftermarket boxes will cause problems with the factory tach and the cruise unit,as it reads coil pulses,if you do this, the original ignitor unit sends the signal to these .

[Oldblueaccord]

I checked the wiring of the coil today before I got a ride to school. Yeah its fine. I'm going to check the resistance of coil again, and then the ignitor. If the ignitor is bad, would it even start? When I checked the ignitor last time I couldn't get it to read battery voltage with the ignition on...but i just put it off to the ghetto starting switch thats in there.

What is something else I can check with the ignition switch on to see if bat volts do get out before i throw that toggle?

Thank you so much for the help guys.

EDIT: Oh and yeah I tapped on the carb/ did most everything except actually adjust the carb because there is no way it all of a sudden just got out of adjustment, I don't want to adjust the carb to an out of tune ignition system. I don't think the tach is acting too weird, and yeah i have kept the battery pretty clean. I will go through all of the connections again when I get off work. Ouch fuel in the oil.... yeah I will try to keep an eye on that for sure, thanks.

No I agree don't adjust the carb unless you can see it flooding,dumping fuel. Tapping unsticks the float sometimes.

short version on Lost comment. The coil may be loading incorrectly and the ignitor may have burned it out. Im not sure what the number should be when you test it but that is a good start.

Would you battery be fully charged as well? 12.7 volts at rest. Start checking voltages all around and see whats up.

wp

[PintleCrook]

If I end up replacing the dizzy I will definately try to find a cheap TEC then. But if the ignitor itself is bad, will the car run?

[lostforawhile]

If I end up replacing the dizzy I will definately try to find a cheap TEC then. But if the ignitor itself is bad, will the car run?
the car can run with a badly malfunctioning dizzy,but not very well, i'm not sure the tec dizzy can be swapped out,thats the FI one,i've never really thought of that. anyone?

[PintleCrook]

Well i just got back from work, picked up a new accel coil, and a carb rebuild kit. i don't plan on rebuilding the carb, just taking off the top hat I guess to make sure the float isn't stuck and flooding fuel.

Oh I guess I should also let you guys know that it runs a little better when it is warmed up and I force the choke plate a little. Also if I turn the A/C on it kills the car no matter what.... would a bad a/c idle controller cause a big enough vacuum leak to cause my problem?

"I will definately try to find a cheap TEC then" Lol I am dumb... guess that shows I am new here right

[PintleCrook]

check one more thing,see if you knocked the hose off the back of the oil pan, thats part of the pcv system and if it's loose it causes a major vaccume leak. i was thinking since you had been near thatere with the axle.

There is a hose near the pan that deals with the pcv system?? will definately check.... hmmmm

[PintleCrook]

Guys, stupid question. My battery is putting out about 12.6 V. When I turn the ignition switch on, I get about 11.4 at each of my fuses. When I test for voltage at any of the coil wires, and the ignitor (as prescribed in haynes) I get no battery volts.... Now I prescribe this to the way he has the ignition switch wired up, or is there some kind of electrical issue I should be adressing?

[lostforawhile]

Guys, stupid question. My battery is putting out about 12.6 V. When I turn the ignition switch on, I get about 11.4 at each of my fuses. When I test for voltage at any of the coil wires, and the ignitor (as prescribed in haynes) I get no battery volts.... Now I prescribe this to the way he has the ignition switch wired up, or is there some kind of electrical issue I should be adressing?one of the coil wires should be hot all the time with the key on,the basic premise of the ignition is charge the coil,then interrupt the ground,and the collapsing magnetic field in the primary of the coil induces a high voltage in the secondary. so one side is always hot,just the ground is interuppted by the module. the ground to the coil, there is supposed to be battery voltage in at one of the ingnitor terminals,then it's ground is through the case, and the other output wire is pulsed ground to the coil. look for a ground screw on the dizzy too. where the wires go into the grommet. mine has an external ground screw one of those wires attach to. unplug the connector going to the dizzy, put your meter on continuity,then check each wire at the dizzy plug to the terminals inside. one of them will be checked from the plug to the dizzy case. this will tell you if there is a bad or corroded connection in one of the wires.

[PintleCrook]

Ok I am just dumb.... sorry. I knew I was doing something wrong. I was just grounding it out wrong. So now with rechecking, I get voltage at Both of the coil wires, at the ignitor terminals, and continuity in only one direction on the ignitor.

[PintleCrook]

Ok I am just dumb.... sorry. I knew I was doing something wrong. I was just grounding it out wrong. So now with rechecking, I get voltage at Both of the coil wires, at the ignitor terminals, and continuity in only one direction on the ignitor.

I checked the fuel level in the bowl, it looks fine, does this look alright? http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8945/fuelbowllv9.jpg

That is with the engine NOT running.

And another question... where does that pcv system hose near the pan actually go? it vents pressure from the pan to the intake?

[lostforawhile]

air is pulled into the valve cover through the air cleaner,thats what the hose on top of the air cleaner does,it circulates through the engine, picking up blowby gasses, it's pulled out at the back of the pan, through that hose,goes up to the oil/air seperator at the back of the block,where oil vapor is supposed to condense back into liquid,and run back into the pan. in theory anyway. at the top of the seperator a hose connects to your pcv valve,which connects to your intake. it's all balanced , too little vaccume and blowby stays in the crankcase,and turns into sludge, too much and liquid oil is sucked through the seperator and pulled into the intake manifold,and blue smoke. sometimes under a high vaccume condion this still happens,if you remove the pcv valve sometimes theres liquid oil in it. i'm working on a solution right now. anyway, any kind of leak in the hose,or even the oil pan gasket can cause an intake manifold leak. thats all the way from the pan to the pcv valve hose to the intake. for a note,the pcv valve itself can somwhat regulate how much vaccume is leaking by restriction,but any kind of leak from the manifold to the valve is major. thats directly off the manifold itself.

[PintleCrook]

Ok, so I feel incredibly dumb..... Got a second pair of eyes to look at it... noticed that I had somehow gotten number one and two cylinders' wires mixed up. So I feel like an idiot, but my car is fixed!! So I am happy and driving the hell out of it.

Thanks guys for all of the help. I will probably be changing the motor mounts pretty soon as the engines feels like it is going to vibrate out of the car sometimes, so i will be back ;)

[A20A1]

You could hook the PCV to an exhaust vacuum source... like the AS valve, but I don't know what that would do to your cat. and also the AS doesn't go on all the time but it's a nice valve to have since it last longer then other vacuum valves you see that weld right to the exhaust.

[lostforawhile]

you need a constant vaccume like manifold vaccume for it to work right, the pcv system on the car is pretty good, it's just the oil seperator on the back of the block sucks. i'm getting the replacable oil seperator filter from a morrosso setup,and building my own can around it. also replacing the hose clamp on the back of the oil pan with a welded on fitting on the pan, and good braided hose.so it doesn't rot out like the factory hose. you need at least half inch inside diameter hose, because if you go smaller,vaccume to the pan can increase causing some liquid oil to make it to the manifold. 1/2 inch equates to about a -16 an hose. i'm also looking at using a drier filter right before the pcv valve, to make sure any liquid oil is trapped before it makes it to the intake. talking about between the intake manifold and the pcv valve. that way vaccume to the valve isn't affected as much. the pcv valve itself regulates the vaccume going to the pan.