Steering Wheel Vibration, Not RPM-specific

[Fataliac]

Hey all, got another one...

My 86 accord dx has an occasional "side-to-side" vibration in the steering wheel (as if I was slightly turning the wheel left and right very rapidly). Sometimes it can get pretty hellacious, assuring me that I shouldn't ignore it...

- The vibration is not speed or RPM specific.
- Not related to braking, just cruising
- pressing clutch/shifting to neutral has no effect
- Vib. seems to diminish when under load (likewise, if it's vibrating at say, 70mph, and I take my foot off the gas and coast, the vibration will INCREASE. )
- if driving around a wide turn (off-ramp or connector), even if coasting, vibration GOES AWAY (as stress is shifted to one side of suspension as I steer)
- If all of the sudden, I'm on some brand-new, perfectly flat pavement, it WILL vibrate (no change in speed) as soon as I'm back on the old....shudder is gone
- Seldom happens at low speeds, but it will do it occasionally
- The vibration seems generally located in the front (almost only through the steering wheel)

These seem to be the classic symptoms of worn suspension bushings.

Here's a list of recent repairs:

-New, balanced tires (all)
-New rotors/pads up front
-New DS axle
-New rear upper control arms/ball joints

Vibration's been there since I got the car (which was free!)

In addition, when getting my inspection, my mechanics (whom I know and trust) told me that my front control arm bushings are shot. I also have a little bit of play in the front b/jts (I know that ANY play calls for a replacement...)

-The control arm bushings are my main suspect, and are already known to be bad (Do bad control arm bushings cause this vibration? Judging by my Chilton's specs, it looks like they're in a great spot to allow some side-to-side shimmy in the steering if shot)
-I doubt it's the wheel bearings (but you never know)
-Radius rod bushings? (but they control forward/backward stress, right?)

If my control arm bushings are shot, I might as well buy 2 new control arms, with the new upper ball joints already pressed in, and the 2 new bushing kits.
BUT, that's a pretty expensive little ticket there in parts alone..., so if there's any reason to believe that the MAIN cause of the vibration is not those control arm bushings, then please share your thoughts. I can't afford to chase this vibration all over the front end. I can't fix everything it may or may not be all at once. I need a good solid consensus on the main culprit before dropping the cash.

Thanks!

[russiankid]

Did it do this before the new rotors and pads?

[Fataliac]

Yes

[2ndGenGuy]

Probably has to do with the other axle too. Since you only replaced the driver's side, you'll probably want to replace the passenger side as well. I'm sure it's a little bit of everything adding up to one big problem.

[w261w261]

Did this just start to happen? Was it there when you bought the car?

I think it's possible you have one of the front tires bad. Try swapping the rears to the fronts and see if it makes a difference.

[russiankid]

Did this just start to happen? Was it there when you bought the car?

I think it's possible you have one of the front tires bad. Try swapping the rears to the fronts and see if it makes a difference. I have a similar problem to his but it happens mostly when braking. I swapped tires and it still happens, so i suspect my rotors are bad.

[Fataliac]

Well, the PS axle looks great, and the boot's in great shape too. No clicking or anything. On the rwd vehicles I'm used to working on, I would start pointing my finger at driveshaft or front end bushings. Now, it could be the axle, But my symptoms are pointing to the suspension bushings (esp. since vibration goes away at same speed when suspension is stressed in the arc of a long turn) It shouldn't be the axle with that symptom present. Would you suspect that over obviously worn control arm bushings/bjs?

I'm sure that a little here and a little there adds to the problem (no doubt), but there is one MAIN problem here. (it would be the one that caused the "little here and there" in the first place) I've only got time to fix one thing at the moment, and I need that one thing to be the main thing (before I'm "interstate spaghetti")

Vibration's been there since I got it -1 month (friend's old car....there didn't used to be any vibration, but then it sat for 3 years and many bushings dried up) Now, 3 yrs later, it vibrates -because it sat -that means bushings have dried out! (since I already ruled out the brakes with repairs)

If anyone has a convincing argument for wheel bearings... I"m interested (especially after my "speech" the other day) But there is none of the typical wheel bearing sounds/"grinding-type" vibration usually associated with them.

I just put 4 new tires on it (and balanced em). Got lot's of experience with front-end vibrations (just new to hondas). I can tell the difference between a tire vibration and a suspension vibration. OOB tires can definitely cause vibration, but my combination of symptoms point me elsewhere. (not to be closed-minded) -Besides, the vibration was there before I got the new tires

Seriously, It's suspension.

Are very worn control arm bushings known to cause this kind of vibration problem. Or do they just squeak or something?

Hey, other than this occasional hellish vibration, car is AWESOME (for being free).

[russiankid]

Check your ball joints. To test them just lift the car up, and see if you can move the wheel side to side, forward and back. It should be firm. Bushings are easy to see if they are bad. they are usually cracked and rotted. My guess would be some bushings and ball joints.

[88Accord-DX]

Tie rod ends, strut rod bushings, rotors, upper ball joints. It'll take a little time to find out where & what the problem is. Can't nail it on the net.
Might need to visually look at some bushings on everything, even move things around while off the ground.

[Bglad420]

Get you tires balanced.... Plain and simple.

[88Accord-DX]

Get you tires balanced.... Plain and simple.

He got his tires balanced. I have seen tires that have dipps in them (not exactly round) cause similar shaking problems.
Edit- Also, bent rims.

[russiankid]

Get you tires balanced.... Plain and simple.
Wouldn't out of balance tires cause this shaking all the time?

[Fataliac]

Wow, you guys.... I'm speechless. :banghead:

Here we go again:

-I'm convinced it is in the suspension, not tires/wheels...not brakes (to keep from getting side-tracked with tire balancing and rotors over and over)
-Control Arm bushings (upper) have been visually inspected -bushings are visibly bad
-Ball Joints have been tested for play -they have play(not much, but still...)

What would be helpful is if anyone who has dealt with worn front control arm bushings would tell me about their symptoms, seeing as I already know that mine are bad(For comparison). In addition to that, the ball joints have some wear in them, but it's not enough (judging by the severity of the vibration at times) to be the sole cause in my opinion.

The whole reason I've asked, is to keep me from chasing this vibration all over the front end with hundreds of dollars.
I'm ready to throw down and replace the front upper control arms, their bushings, and the upper ball joints. all in one pop. But if I do this, and it doesn't solve the problem, then the next repair is gonna have to wait. And the vibration's telling me not to wait too long....if you know what I mean.

Even a simple "yeah, bad upper control arm bushings can cause a vibration that can be felt through the steering wheel" would be great.

BTW ddude2uc, tie rod ends could be a poss... will check into it, but I think any small amt of play i find would just be a smaller additional cause contributing to the larger one. I need to knock out that main cause first. Strut rod...is this part my "McPherson" struts or is it another name for the radius rod?

[88Accord-DX]

BTW ddude2uc, Strut rod...is this part my "McPherson" struts or is it another name for the radius rod?

It's the bushing in the frame from a rod that is mounted on lower control arm to the frame. The bushings are mounted on the frame where the rod goes through the frame. The technical name is called a "radius arm". More so called a radius rod or strut rod.

[cygnus x-1]

You guys aren't reading. He put on new tires and they were balanced. But that wouldn't be the problem anyway because out of balance tires cause vibrations that change with vehicle speed. This is very likely ball joints or control arm bushings. Wheel bearings are not likely although possible. Since the bushings are already known to be bad I would start there. You can also check the ball joints by grabbing the tire at the top and push/pull in and out with some force. Worn ball joints will likely make a knocking sound. Worn bushings won't really knock because there is still some rubber in there. And if the bushings were so bad that there was no rubber you wouldn't be driving that car.

C|

[88Accord-DX]

You can't say what the hell is going on off the net on anything. That is how the net works. All we can do is give him pointers on a "solution". It's up to the individual to make the right assumptions on where & what to look at. That is all that we can do. :)

This is no "type & tell me how to fix it" board is it? Cause if it was, the everyone would be happy.

[bubba g]

I had this same problem on a couple different cars. One, a VW super beetle, didn't have enough toe in. The tires were fighting against each other. I adjusted the tie rod ends and it fixed the problem.

The other was a ford truck that had worn steering parts. It was way worse than an out of balance tire vibration, it felt like the whole truck was shaking apart. I rebuilt the steering, aligned the front end and it went away.
Just a couple things to check.

Raise the vehicle, shake the tire side to side. Watch for play in inner and outer tie rods, control arm bushings, and also watch the steering wheel to make sure the rack does not have excessive play.
Shake the tires with your hands at the top and bottom. This will show worn ball joints, wheel bearing, or control arm bushings.
You can also find bad ball joints by lifting the tire up and down.
Wheel bearing will show play in any direction of shaking.
These are just guidelines, You may see play in a pivot point no matter what direction you shake the wheel. But, since it is non-speed/rpm sensitive, I would agree with you and say that it is suspension. Rotating parts are usually speed/rpm specific.

[cygnus x-1]

Ok, you didn't say UPPER bushings at first. I was thinking lower. Upper bushings could also be an issue but I wouldn't suspect the uppers as much as the lowers; because the wheel hub is closer to the lower end of steering knuckle that the upper end. It would take more slop in an upper arm to cause a problem than a lower arm. Have you looked at the lower control arm bushings?

C|

[stocklxi]

well i have a very similar problem on my other car a 92 integra 5spd.
-new rotors and pads all around,
-new ds axle, ps is good
-ES sway bar bushings,
-ball joints are GOOD and absolutely NO play in the tie rods or anything.
-tires are balanced and properly inflated ( tried changing tires, didn't make a difference)
yeah my lower control arm bushings are shot, but heres my dilemma. ( sorry if thread jacking, just wanting this problem to go away cuz its dangerous)

usually above 50mph is when i notice the steering wheel "pulse" left and right, just cruising down the road, its RANDOM, when it DOES do it, and i hit the brakes, the whole front end of my car shudders violently and that "pulsing" of the steering wheel moves it farther left and right back and forth.

also when highway driving, if im at say 70mph, and i hit the gas to put a load on the car in gear, my front end vibrates cuz i can see my rear view mirror shaking up and down the whole time i have the load on, or sometimes itll do it all the time.

one thing i have noticed tho is my rotors have light spots on em, like its not braking smooth? i'm not sure, the problem did go away for about a week after i put the new brakes on, but if it keeps comin back, what else could be causing that? cuz im not gonna keep throwing new front brakes on my car.

[cygnus x-1]

You can't say what the hell is going on off the net on anything. That is how the net works. All we can do is give him pointers on the a "solution". It's up to the individual to make to right assumptions on where & what to look at. That is all that we can do. :)

This is no "type & tell me how to fix it" board is it? Cause if it was, the everyone would be happy.

Of course. You're right that it's impossible to make a 100% accurate diagnosis without actually seeing it. But given the OP's rather detailed description of the symptoms it's pretty clear this is a suspension issue.

I used to work at a bicycle shop when I was in high school and college, and we had kids call up all the time with questions like "When I ride my bike it makes this noise like, click, click, click. How much would that cost to fix?" My boss used to tell them to hold the phone closer to it so he could see it. :lol: It was hilarious! But even still, with a few specific questions I could narrow down the possibilities quite a bit and offer some pretty accurate suggestions. Of course we always told them they would have to bring the bike in so we could tell them for sure.
Well, I digress.

C|

[LX-incredible]

Hey all, got another one...

My 86 accord dx has an occasional "side-to-side" vibration in the steering wheel (as if I was slightly turning the wheel left and right very rapidly). Sometimes it can get pretty hellacious, assuring me that I shouldn't ignore it...

- The vibration is not speed or RPM specific.
- Not related to braking, just cruising
- pressing clutch/shifting to neutral has no effect
- Vib. seems to diminish when under load (likewise, if it's vibrating at say, 70mph, and I take my foot off the gas and coast, the vibration will INCREASE. )
- if driving around a wide turn (off-ramp or connector), even if coasting, vibration GOES AWAY (as stress is shifted to one side of suspension as I steer)
- If all of the sudden, I'm on some brand-new, perfectly flat pavement, it WILL vibrate (no change in speed) as soon as I'm back on the old....shudder is gone
- Seldom happens at low speeds, but it will do it occasionally
- The vibration seems generally located in the front (almost only through the steering wheel)

These seem to be the classic symptoms of worn suspension bushings.

Here's a list of recent repairs:

-New, balanced tires (all)
-New rotors/pads up front
-New DS axle
-New rear upper control arms/ball joints

Vibration's been there since I got the car (which was free!)

In addition, when getting my inspection, my mechanics (whom I know and trust) told me that my front control arm bushings are shot. I also have a little bit of play in the front b/jts (I know that ANY play calls for a replacement...)

-The control arm bushings are my main suspect, and are already known to be bad (Do bad control arm bushings cause this vibration? Judging by my Chilton's specs, it looks like they're in a great spot to allow some side-to-side shimmy in the steering if shot)
-I doubt it's the wheel bearings (but you never know)
-Radius rod bushings? (but they control forward/backward stress, right?)

If my control arm bushings are shot, I might as well buy 2 new control arms, with the new upper ball joints already pressed in, and the 2 new bushing kits.
BUT, that's a pretty expensive little ticket there in parts alone..., so if there's any reason to believe that the MAIN cause of the vibration is not those control arm bushings, then please share your thoughts. I can't afford to chase this vibration all over the front end. I can't fix everything it may or may not be all at once. I need a good solid consensus on the main culprit before dropping the cash.

Thanks! Sounds like it could be a wheel bearing. Constant drone while at speed? I had almost the same symptoms when mine went out. The noise got really bad around 55 mph, and turns seemed to silence it. Jack up the front of the car and move each wheel up, down, and side to side, to check for play. I also replaced the radius arm bushings, as the passenger's side was gone. I'm pretty sure the most of it was from the bearing.

[88Accord-DX]

bubba g made some good points. Need to raise the front end off the ground as I mentioned to see what is going on. Visual inspection & what to look for is critical on these types if problems. Experience is a plus, as seen here. Good luck.
Takes a little practice, let me tell ya. Mess with drive-ability issues every week. The list goes on & on.

[2oodoor]

I had this same problem on a couple different cars. One, a VW super beetle, didn't have enough toe in. The tires were fighting against each other. I adjusted the tie rod ends and it fixed the problem.

The other was a ford truck that had worn steering parts. It was way worse than an out of balance tire vibration, it felt like the whole truck was shaking apart. I rebuilt the steering, aligned the front end and it went away.
Just a couple things to check.

Raise the vehicle, shake the tire side to side. Watch for play in inner and outer tie rods, control arm bushings, and also watch the steering wheel to make sure the rack does not have excessive play.
Shake the tires with your hands at the top and bottom. This will show worn ball joints, wheel bearing, or control arm bushings.
You can also find bad ball joints by lifting the tire up and down.
Wheel bearing will show play in any direction of shaking.
These are just guidelines, You may see play in a pivot point no matter what direction you shake the wheel. But, since it is non-speed/rpm sensitive, I would agree with you and say that it is suspension. Rotating parts are usually speed/rpm specific.

Excellant advice!

all it would take is a slight "follow the leader" alignment condition and a worn inner tie rod end to create this hard to diagnose condition. The first thing I would check though is a slighty bent wheel or new tire that was a little wobbley but balanced out.

[Fataliac]

Thanks for your replies!

cygnus x-1, I was under the impression that it was my upper control arms that had the bad bushings...(hmmmmm), but now that you mention it...
I can't afford to doubt it, so I'm jacking it up later on today to have a look. That's an excellent thing to point out, -the closeness of the lower c.a. to the wheel hub. But, think of a lever. Wouldn't it be the other way around? The uppers come off that long steering knuckle, connected by the bj. Woudn't road stress more likely be projected through those longer pieces to the upper control arm bushings rather than to the lower, which seems closer to the "fulcrum" of the assembly's leverage?


bubba g, I did find some play in the steering itself (I think the max allowance was 3/32" of play -I had something like 1/4" in either way) I'm sure that it's contributing to the steering wheel shakes at least in part. Would you suspect that as the main culprit before suspecting front end bushings? Keep in mind that this vibration came about because it sat for 3 years. I'd think that the steering gears would be less at risk than the exposed suspension bushings/ball joints.

LX-Incredible, I have no constant drone. In fact, I don't have any howling or any other noise you'd usually get with the wheel bearings. I've always had the vibration get worse in a turn with bad bearings...but I can see how it could lessen (bearings move off the worn tracks to a fresh part of the race)

[bubba g]

I would say it is not a wheel bearing. I would also think aout ruling out control arm bushings, although a sloppy bushing could cause the toe in to change, making the tires fight each other for the lead. The reason I would consider ruling out bushings is that the lowers are on the centerline of the wheel, and with weight on the tire and driving down the road, the bushing will be loaded. This may cause a rattle when hitting a bump but not a steering wheel shake. Ball joint would cause a rattle but not a wheel shake.
I am really leaning towards the tie rod ends. They are directly connected to the steering and have the greater amount of leverage applied to them. Get under the car and lift the rod end up and down. I have seen tie rods pass the side to side shake test but when you physically grab the rod end and move it up and down you find the play. There are also inner rod ends in the rack.

My suggestion would be to check the rod ends closely. You say you have a Quarter inch of play which is not alot but if that is a 1/4" per side you now have a half inch.
If you are comfortable with the condition of your rod ends I would check your toe in and adjust if needed. I would try turning the adjuster in a couple turns on each side just to see if it goes away. Remember how many turns you turn them so if you have to go back you know where you started.

[bubba g]

Does it do this fairly regular? By that I mean is it easily reproduced? If so that helps with troubleshooting, because then you can take steps to eliminate components.

Don't drive too long with ALOT of toe in. It will wear your tires fast.

[Fataliac]

bubba g, Yes, it happens at least once every time I drive the car. Most of the time it's a fairly smooth ride though. Are you saying that you'd not suspect the lower control arm bushings because of their closeness to the wheel, and under load? (makes sense) What about those uppers? if the upper bushing's bad, then wont that allow play in the entire upper half of the steering knuckle? (and wear bjs sooner)

-sweeping curves in the road either make vibration show up (if it wasn't vibrating -usually at lower spds) or dissappear/lessen (if it already was -usually high speeds)
I follow you on the control arms throwing capable of throwing out the toe, causing them to fight, But the car drives almost perfectly straight -with a tiny preference towards the left over considerable distance (another clue perhaps??)

-upper bushings are visibly deteriorated

Tie rod ends...I would be a happy camper if thats the main source...way cheaper. But I won't be sure until I jack it up and yank on it real good in a few hours.

[2oodoor]

Please let me add too, as with any alignment or shaking problem, after you have checked tire balance and pressure... if you run the same size tire on all four.. rotate the tires and see what difference it makes.

[Fataliac]

...incidentally, I do have 13" wheels on the front and 14" on the back..... I doubt that it causes anything more than my speedo being off and possibly less mpg. (they are all new and balanced, and I already replaced a bent rim. I'm sure my problems are not wheel/tire related)
The friend who I got this car from assures me that this vibration wasn't there before it sat for 3 years. He was running those wheel sizes back then. I myself rode in this car many times when it was his, and didn't notice this prob.

[2oodoor]

...incidentally, I do have 13" wheels on the front and 14" on the back..... I doubt that it causes anything more than my speedo being off and possibly less mpg. (they are all new and balanced, and I already replaced a bent rim. I'm sure my problems are not wheel/tire related)
The friend who I got this car from assures me that this vibration wasn't there before it sat for 3 years. He was running those wheel sizes back then. I myself rode in this car many times when it was his, and didn't notice this prob.

wheel size is not a problem Im sure.. now that I think of it, you say the car has set up a while, you may want to make sure your brake calipers are free floating and not hanging up. That could cause your problem especially when the car has set overnight. It would be good if you did a brake bleeding to get the moisture out of the low lying areas such as in the caliper pistion cavity too. So there are two issues with the brakes ,mechanical and hydraulic ,that could cause the same similar symptom but mostly only when the car has settled like overnight.

It won't hurt to do some of these things anyway so you are not working in vien if one particular thing does not solve the original problem.

[Fataliac]

Well, I just got back from my machine shop, where I jacked it up and gave everything a good yank. Here goes:

The Good:
-Tie rod ends seemed nice and tight up and down and side to side, and the bushings are in good shape
-No play in wheel bearings
-The lock nut on PS radius rod was loose, but radius rod nut was nice and tight (i tightened it).
-Radius rod bushings look and feel good
-Sway bar bushings are good
-Lower control arm seemed tight, inner and outer bushings appeared to be intact and I couldn't detect any play
-Lower ball joints seemed ok

The Bad(not so bad):
-DS upper control arm was rusty and the bushings were intact (dry though), and probably could stand replacement (didn't detect movement, but prolly cause I couldn't find a way to pry on it good)
-DS upper ball joint: couldn't get it to move, but it's dried out and probably does have a little play in it
-I confirmed the play in the steering mechanism from the wheels as well (inner tie rods? do I even have any?) this was like play along the tie rod towards the column, from the column.

The Ugly:
-PS upper control arm bushing is visibly deteriorated, dry, rusty, cracked, and missing pieces...heh
-PS upper ball joint can be moved by hand and clacking is heard (obviously bad!)


On my way back home, I stopped by my mechanic's (the same ones who told be about the control arm bushings) to discuss my findings. 2 of them are convinced that my steering shimmy is from those control arm bushings. They also confirmed my other findings as well.



~I think that the play in the steering does add to the problem, but is not the main source. For example, in a turn, the mechanism is under load, and there is no play, since the gears are in use, busy turning the car. Remember that curves cause vibration when there was none already (normal driving speeds)
I also said that a sweeping curve at high speeds can smooth the problem out. But that's explainable by the suspension shifting load firmly onto what remains of the bushings, thus temporarily smoothing out. But more often then not i get the vibration from going into the curve.

-Check my thinking here: Since the upper CA bushing and BJ are obviously bad on the PS, couldn't the vibration be caused as the vehicle shifts towards that side and back rapidly under certain stress conditions (curves, new pavement). Wouldn't this account for the "side to side" shimmy felt thru the steering wheel? Is this logical?


roodoo2, I've already flushed/bled the brake system in addition to the new pads and rotors. The problem is the same whether or not its been sitting overnight/cool or driven all day.

[cygnus x-1]

~I think that the play in the steering does add to the problem, but is not the main source. For example, in a turn, the mechanism is under load, and there is no play, since the gears are in use, busy turning the car. Remember that curves cause vibration when there was none already (normal driving speeds)
I also said that a sweeping curve at high speeds can smooth the problem out. But that's explainable by the suspension shifting load firmly onto what remains of the bushings, thus temporarily smoothing out. But more often then not i get the vibration from going into the curve.

-Check my thinking here: Since the upper CA bushing and BJ are obviously bad on the PS, couldn't the vibration be caused as the vehicle shifts towards that side and back rapidly under certain stress conditions (curves, new pavement). Wouldn't this account for the "side to side" shimmy felt thru the steering wheel? Is this logical?


Yes it is quite logical. Suspension dynamics are very complex and all of the parts work together to stabilize the vehicle and minimize any effects from road variation. If any of the parts allow for extra movement that they are supposed to prevent, lots of strange things can happen. And because of the system complexity and variability of road surfaces, the effects can seem random at times. Where you are most likely to notice the effects is when some thing in the system *changes*; like road surface, steering direction, load shifts, etc..

So like I said before, it will be impossible to say with 100% certainty that the UCA bushings are the cause. But given the information available I would say that the UCA bushings and that ball joint are the most likely culprits and should be the first thing to go after.

And as is the case with most suspension repair, you will want to get the alignment at least checked after fixing whatever parts you decide to fix.

C|

[cygnus x-1]

Oh, and I also wanted to mention; any slop between the steering wheel and steering *rack* should not cause vibration issues like this. If the tires and suspension are doing their job the car will tend to track straight and will not vibrate. It will change direction due to road variance but it will always try to center itself to the most stable state. Any vibration not caused directly by the road (rough surface) indicates that there is something wrong with the suspension. The steering is there for exactly that; steering.

C|

[Fataliac]

So this is what I'm gonna do. I'm going to go ahead and order the PS front upper control arm and a bushing kit for it (with new BJ already pressed in).
Once that's in there, if those bushings/bj WERE the main culprit, My vibration should be drastically reduced or gone all together(even from just changing that one side)
The plus side to this is, my expenses/labor will be cut in half. If the problem persists, then I've still improved the condition/handling of the car anyway, and I didn't spend all that cash fixing both sides. -Saving money for me to chase it elsewhere (if needs be)

Good point about the steering rack. Btw, I will most definitely getting it aligned afterwards.

-I'll give an update in a week or 2 when it's all back together. Thanks for the replies!

[bubba g]

If you have alot of play in the ps bj definitely change it. Now and then, I see a car on the side of the road with the wheel half cocked because the ball joint broke and I think to myself, why did you not notice that earlier. So, you don't want to be in that situation.

The slop between the wheel and the rack would not cause this problem, because it is connected equally to both wheels, but it would amplify the shimmy. There is an adjustment on the rack to take out play. But the play could come from inner rod ends (you do have them), U-joints in the column, or the rack. If you don't have a manual that shows how to do this, and you are Positively sure it is in the rack and not the other components, let me know and I will send it to you. But I would only do it if you are worried about the play.
I hope the contol arm/ball joint fixes this for you.

[2oodoor]

good point and often true... one problem or excessive play in a suspension part can AMPLIFY the lesser issue of another component.
Great information thread folks!

Fataliac, you seem to be very aware of your car's dynamics which is a rare quality to find in someone describing a problem, hope you stick around and also get your car straight :wave:

[Blkblurr]

I had the same thing happen to mine. It turned out to be the DS axle but it was the new axle I just put in. I pulled the wheel hub off and the cv joint at the wheel was very stiff. I changed the axle again under Advance Autos warranty and the problem went away.

[Fataliac]

Update:

New PS upper control arm/bushings/ball joint installed and aligned. The vibration is mostly gone. It only happens about half as much as it used to. The "hardness" of the shimmy is also gone (probably caused by the ball joint clacking around). The car handles much better as well.

But, since the problem still exists (allthough drastically reduced), there are two big possibilities jumping out at me:

1) The DS UCA bushings just need changing too (the problem's only half gone)

-but on the other hand, those new bushings could've just covered up the real cause elsewhere...


2) That yet-unreplaced PS axle (as some of you have already mentioned)

-while my car was jacked up and I was checking the front end (with the parking brake on -in neutral) I happened to rotate the PS wheel and felt a little more resistance than I was expecting (I was expecting very little or no resistance, car being in neutral) I then rotated the other DS wheel for comparison. I also felt some reistance, but it was less than the PS. (it felt like a normal amount of resistance for something connected to a transmission in neutral)
Is that at all unusual? Does the parking brake have any effect on the front wheels? (I thought it only went to the drums in the back) Is that just normal resistance because it's a drive axle? I don't believe it's a sticky brake caliper. Or, are we onto something here...?

[cygnus x-1]

I would say the DS bushings are next in line. I don't think the axle has anything to do with it. There might be some other issue with the axle but I doubt it's related to the vibration problem. The parking brake is only for the back. If a brake was dragging you should hear the pads scraping the rotor.

C|

[bubba g]

Since it's still there, but not as harsh, I would say you covered up the problem that was being amplified by the worn bushings/ball joint.

I totally understand you not wanting to just throw parts at it. So, you need to verify what components are questionable.

The shimmy changes on a curve. A stuck caliper wouldn't change in a turn. But, a sticking halfshaft would. It won't cost anything but time to pull the spindle and check the cvj's for binding. They could have rusted from sitting.

To answer your question about the rotational effort of the wheels. It is possible that the unreplaced ps axle, if binding from sitting, could cause more effort to turn that side. Or, it could just be that the drivers side wheel has more mechanical advantage over the gears in the differential and countershaft.

The parking brake has nothing to do with front brakes, only rear.

Since you want to save money, take apart the pass side to access the cvj and check over everything thorughly. I would check runout on you wheels and tires also just to be sure. Jack up the front and take a beer bottle, or something similar, and set next to the tire. It would be best to have a buddy get in the car and run the car in first gear while you watch the runout of the wheel/tire. BE CAREFUL

[bubba g]

I would say the DS bushings are next in line. I don't think the axle has anything to do with it. There might be some other issue with the axle but I doubt it's related to the vibration problem. The parking brake is only for the back. If a brake was dragging you should hear the pads scraping the rotor.

C|

I really didn't think the axle was a possibility either untill I went back through and read the original complaint. He said it supposedly did not have this problem untill it had sat for a while. That is what makes me wonder about the cvj binding from rust. It could very well be the other bushings as well but I know where he is coming from when he talks about spending money.

[Fataliac]

I was able to drive on some other sections of road today that usually always made it vibrate. One section of note was a mile of brand new, very smooth pavement on the interstate. This spot would always make it vibrate, and as soon as I was back on the old pavement, the vibration went away again. I had absolutely no vibration while driving on that section today.
Now I'm mostly noticing it only on the curved sections of road, particularly when coasting/decelerating up to and around an off-ramp. (pretty much the most consistent symptom of all) -or cruising around similar long curves at lower speeds.
Engine load definitely seems to be a factor -vibration will increase if I take my foot off the gas to decelerate or throw it into neutral for the same purpose. But again, it doesn't happen all the time.
The vibration probably is consistent with wheel rotation when it happens, but that that's not enough for me to necessarily think it's anything directly connected to the wheels. Anything in the car can vibrate at "wheel" speed simply because of the momentum of the spinning metal.
I'll check for wheel run out when I get a chance later on this week.

(...i'm still wondering if that slight pull to the left is a clue. yes it does it even after the alignment)

[cygnus x-1]

I really didn't think the axle was a possibility either untill I went back through and read the original complaint. He said it supposedly did not have this problem untill it had sat for a while. That is what makes me wonder about the cvj binding from rust. It could very well be the other bushings as well but I know where he is coming from when he talks about spending money.

There could certainly be multiple problems here where the symptoms of one drown out the symptoms of the other. Although even if that is the case, you still would want to fix the problems in order of most obvious and severe to least obvious and severe.

I suppose a binding CV could cause a vibration or shimmy but I'm having a hard time imagining this. In my experience CV joints usually start making horrible noises when they go bad.

The slight pull to the left seems a little odd too, especially after getting an alignment (assuming of course that the tires have equal pressure left to right). This would mean that either there is a drag at one of the driver side wheels or that the driver side front knuckle has more caster angle than the passenger side knuckle; causing it to pull left. Note that loose control arm bushings could cause the caster angle to change depending whether the car is accelerating or decelerating. An interesting experiment would be to shim the upper control arm where it mounts to the unibody and see if the pull tendency changes.

Hmm. This is a indeed a puzzle. Still pondering.

C|

[Blkblurr]

I was able to drive on some other sections of road today that usually always made it vibrate. One section of note was a mile of brand new, very smooth pavement on the interstate. This spot would always make it vibrate, and as soon as I was back on the old pavement, the vibration went away again. I had absolutely no vibration while driving on that section today.
Now I'm mostly noticing it only on the curved sections of road, particularly when coasting/decelerating up to and around an off-ramp. (pretty much the most consistent symptom of all) -or cruising around similar long curves at lower speeds.
Engine load definitely seems to be a factor -vibration will increase if I take my foot off the gas to decelerate or throw it into neutral for the same purpose. But again, it doesn't happen all the time.
The vibration probably is consistent with wheel rotation when it happens, but that that's not enough for me to necessarily think it's anything directly connected to the wheels. Anything in the car can vibrate at "wheel" speed simply because of the momentum of the spinning metal.
I'll check for wheel run out when I get a chance later on this week.

(...i'm still wondering if that slight pull to the left is a clue. yes it does it even after the alignment)

These are all symptoms of a bad cv joint. Check your outer cv joints again even though you just replaced the axle. As I said earlier, the same symptoms happened to me after I replaced the ds axle. It turned out the joint was very tight when I took the axle free from the hub assembly. Based on the angle of your wheel you can get different symptoms. tightening up the front end just makes the problem less noticeable.

[Fataliac]

Well guys, I'm beginning to agree that it could be, in fact, that DS drive axle. I guess that'll be the next thing I tackle in the "vibration quest." I'll keep you posted with updates as they happen....until then, I gotta take care of that "pop when braking" from the rear DS, prolly lower bj -and it's getting worse (haha)

[Fataliac]

Update on my Accord:

-The "pop" noise in the rear is being caused by a very bad DS strut. (noise happens when weight lifts off the rear end) I'm going to ignore it for now.

-While checking for the noise in the rear, and the car was on a lift with good visibility, found that the front DS lower BJ was about to go. No more bushing at all!! I replaced both.

-When the tie rod nuts came off, the rod ends dropped out....(needless to say, I replaced those as well)

after that, the vibration got worse. (cause it was nice and tight now)
went for another look...

And final culprit was revealed (drum roll please)

-Out of round tires that were .5oz off each!

(sigh)

Of course, I'm pissed as hell, since these are new, "balanced" tires, which threw me on a wild goose-chase. But fortunately, I probably wouldn't have fixed the truly life-threatening worn parts I found had I not.

-Rebalanced the tires. Problem is almost completely gone. (They are still pretty badly out of round, so I get a little shimmy every once in a while)

-I will raise hell at "Discount" Tire (was the only place open at the time) and after that, never go back.

Thanks again for all your replies!!

[w261w261]

This reminds me of my travails with a new '67 Datsun 1600 (the model right before the 510, ugly little guy but had 98hp and would blow off many cars). Shortly after I took delivery I noticed this vibration at around 50-55 mph. Went the whole route, balanced, re-balanced wheels, shaved tires (was in vogue in those days), "we're checking it out." Nothing helped except the tire shaving, and then only for a few days. The final culprit? Out of round wheels! Took me almost a year to get Datsun to give me new ones, and then only after I threw a shit-fit at the dealer. After months of excuses etc I finally lost my temper big-time.

[cygnus x-1]

Heh! That's quite a story! So all the slop in the suspension masked the vibration from the tires. One of the initial assumptions was false then (tires were balanced). The symptoms described didn't really suggest out of balance tires either.

This a great illustration of how everything works as a system. And how multiple failures can be so difficult to diagnose.

C|