update: turbo accord project

[bobafett]

Just thought I would check in with my setup here...

Got the manifold and turbo mounted this weekend, planning my attack for how I will do the downpipe, and what else I will need to modify to make that happen.

In the first pic you can see the AEBS manifold and 70mm throttle body, and the sexy bracket I built so the throttle cable works. It's VERY simple Also you can see the spring I added to have a more firm pedal, I like the difference.

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/turbo/img_0667.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/turbo/img_0668.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/turbo/img_0669.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/turbo/img_0670.jpg

Planning on either doing a pie cut 2.5" downpipe that flares to 3" when its under the oil pan, or building something like this: http://www.explicitspeedperformance.net/TBS.html and not worrying about clearance and just running a full 3" dp.

If you want to see pics of anything specific let me know, hopefullly I will get the gauges redone soon and I can take some pics of that. Also working on getting the manual window conversion done. The interior is totally gutted with 2 corbeau seats, so there is not much to show on the inside.

Thats it for now. :)

[A18A]

ooo0000OOOO0000oooo thats sexy :bow:

[Cheeseburger]

ahhh sweet mother of cheese!

[guaynabo89]

looking good.

actually looking alot better since they are full sized and not phone sized. lol


You know what.

Now that I look at it. You definately have enough room to fit it there. Pie cut bends are not a bad thing. Its just noone makes really tight radius bends. I really think you can swing it there no prob. Just bust out the chop saw and make a bunch of pie cuts off a bend and you should have no problem slowly tacking them in place to clear the mount. You might have to notch the lip of the front crossmember slightly and the lower one that connects the front and rear subframes but definately doable without going all out traction bar just yet. For the cost of the bar youll have your downpipe n exhaust done.

One thing though is the wastegate placement might cause boost creep issues and/or reaction time probs being that its so far away. If you run the civic half rad you might have enough room to mount it like this.

http://turbogoods.com/ProductImages/9pla.jpg

[HostileJava]

Very nice!

[labeledsk8r]

omg looks sweet. what are your goals on the power scale when its done?

[Legend_master]

Oh man I have been waiting a year to see this project come together. Im glad you are getting close, keep us up to date.

[2drSE-i]

very awesome. What are your plans for an intercooler?

[EricW]

Looks good can't wait to see it done and running. Then you can join the turbo club.

[Sporno]

dear g-d thats amazing!!! Awesome wastegate , i love the tial ones! Which BOV do you have ? please tell me you got the HKS one

looks great man!

major props

[bobafett]

One thing though is the wastegate placement might cause boost creep issues and/or reaction time probs being that its so far away. If you run the civic half rad you might have enough room to mount it like this.


Yeah that is true, it would make the dump tube routing a lot more simple as well... I will think about it!



omg looks sweet. what are your goals on the power scale when its done?

Power should be 300+ whp, we will see what the motor can take!



very awesome. What are your plans for an intercooler?

Probably going with this intercooler, http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=207&osCsid=810a590ca6f329e9cc2ae58e7ab960e1 but it is out of stock at the moment. I would like to run a bigger intercooler, but I am just not sure how much height I will have to work with. I will be building a new bumper support, so we will see. :)



dear g-d thats amazing!!! Awesome wastegate , i love the tial ones! Which BOV do you have ? please tell me you got the HKS one


Yep TiAL 38mm wastegate and I have an HKS SSQV BOV, but I haven't started the charge pipe project yet, since I don't have my intercooler mounted. :)

------------

Next pictures I will show the engine bay after I do some wiring clean up, and after I remove the distributor etc. I already pulled off the MSD 6A and Blaster SS Coil, and custom built Crane wires, anybody want them? I would like $150 for all three... :)

For those that DON'T know, I am going to be running an Electromotive TECgt standalone engine management system. Basically it is the same thing as the TEC3r, but can't run 16 cylinder motors (oh well).

So I get to pull off my dizzy and find some cam plug for that end of the cam (very much looking forward to that). My new setup consists of a crank trigger sensor that is mounted to the block where the AC/PS bracket is, and it points to a crank trigger wheel that will be mounted to my crank pulley (that will be shaved down to one belt only).

So that's the update, hopefully the intercooler gets in stock soon so I can proceed with the project. Or I finish the bumper beam so that I can maybe determine if I can get away with a larger intercooler.

[mushroom_toy]

Ramhorm manifold, pretty.

[86AccordLxi]

Zomg! Ze boosty boost! About freakin' time.

Looks good, and I think that with enough cutting, everything will fit (or else we will just cut more :tongue: )

Alex

[bobafett]

If it doesn't fit, just remove or dent what is in the way! That has been the method so far... :) I still have a ton of work to do, so at least I can keep myself busy as I save for the expensive parts. :)

[Civic Accord Honda]

holy batman O_O

[Sporno]

yay!!! your gonna have my favorite wastegate and BOV on your A20

[2ndGenGuy]

I don't know turbo terminology, but can't you unbolt the two halves of the turbo, and put it back together so that the "output" half of the turbo is pointing down? That might make routing of the charge piping easier. Since you'll have it going up, then have to bend back down to the intercooler... I mean it just looks like you can undo the 6 bolts around the two halves of the turbo, and twist it around without separating them, since it's all round and everything...

[bobafett]

oh yes, I can rotate the center section (so the oil train is pointing towards the oil pan) and I can rotate the compressor housing and point the outlet straight up (as much as will clear the manifold) which should allow me to use a 90 degree silicone coupler, and head right for the hole in the body to get me down into the fender/bumper area.

if I point the outlet down I get the benefit of being further away from the manifold, but it will be harder to route plumbing, unless I bore a huge hole somewhere in the body.

I guess I have to keep thinking about it and decide the pros/cons of each way. :)

[thegreatdane]

going to be a beast! nice to see someone choosing one of the big aftermarket EMS kits!

[LX-incredible]

Awesome manifold!

[MessyHonda]

looking good man.

[2ndGenGuy]

Oh right. I forgot that you want to to up through the factory intercooler hole in the inner fender. :)

[hondaman87]

very clean motor and tranny

[Hash_man_Se_i]

Good to see things coming together finally. Keep up the good work. And can't wait to see the final results and the kind of power you put down.

['A20A3']

gotta love the ram horn. are you planning on painting it before you run it?

[bobafett]

Yeah I will probably send it off to Jet to get coated, along with the downpipe when I finish that. :)

['A20A3']

good deal maing she's gonna be a beaut!

[RobT5580]

I like the manifold i have been looking into having a custom top mount or ram style made for my B20A. I have read that the top mounts can be laggy and recall a post where it kinda pushed me away because of my low rpm range and i want it to spool fairly early.

Nice looking setup im liking all the A20A turbo options im seeing pop up!

[bobafett]

Yeah I like the manifold too but if I were to have one build I would make it just a bit shorter and possibly tilt the flange a bit to make downpipe fitment a bit easier. :) Obviously you won't have that problem if you get one custom made, but that is something I am running into on mine.

After coming up with a good front motor mount replacement I should gain more room, but the oil pan and the block are pretty close too, so I will probably have to do a fancy pie cut downpipe.

I spent some time yesterday installing the cam plug since I will not be running a distributor, and also removed my engine wiring harness, since I will only need like 8 wires out of the entire thing.

Hopefully this weekend I can make a trip to the junkyard and pull some more 86-87 chassis harness parts, so that I can attempt a wire tuck. :) It will be a pita, but I am willing to bet my soldering skills will improve lol...

Does anybody know of the proper tool to remove the pins from the plastic plugs, and if it possible to buy replacement pins for them? That would make my life a lot easier.... Otherwise I am just going to build some molex ones.

[RobT5580]

I bought the snap on pin tool and its ok but no where near worth the money because it doesnt work like it should. I would go to sears and buy just a set of the picks i think i used my straight pick and practiced with that one before i got it down really good. I do use one of my snap on pin tools now but only because its smaller and a tad easier to use. But its easy once you figure which way to push the plastic tabs and depending on what socket it is will depend how it comes out so cut a bunch of plugs off at the junk yard to practice on and use if you need them.

[bobafett]

yep I think thats what I need to do. :)

[TWOLOUDNPROUD]

bobafett it time for you to go OBD-1 and get the most out of your turbo setup.

[86AccordLxi]

Why bother with that crap ? He's going full standalone :D

Alex

[bobafett]

http://electromotive-inc.com/products/tec3.html :)

obdwhat?

[thegreatdane]

lol, just rub it in you bastard

[bobafett]

hahah yeah to be honest I don't even have it yet, but I have read the installation manual about 10 times, so I know how it needs to be hooked up, and it is going to take me a long time to get the car prepped, so I am just getting ready now while I wait to get the engine management.

I will probably have it within the next month or so... :)

[Sporno]

thats sooo tight

how many years have you been building this thing?

[bobafett]

at least 2 full years. my motor was in the shop being built about this time 2 years ago.

but once i got the motor back from the shop (which took a few months anyway) it took me 8 months to put the motor into the car.

I am finally starting to make some slow progress again which is nice.

[Sporno]

still thats alot ... like a crazy amount of work

and i know crazy amounts of building

[88Accord-DX]

That looks nice. I wonder why I don't see carbed guys with a set up like that? Must be limited on engine management issues with the turbo & waste-gate. Can you clue me on that? Is it the OBD-1 problem with these old cars?

[bobafett]

yeah carb guys could run a standalone ignition setup, but I imagine fueling would be tricky to control.

honestly I don't know a lot about forced induction with carbs, but as I understand it tuning is probably a lot more straightforward with an EFI setup. :)

['A20A3']

i rather like that electromotive ecu idea...is it hard to install? what about the ignition? individual coil packs...hmmmm...the price tag isn't that bad either considering after hondata and an obd1 conversion you'd be pretty close to that amount anyways...looks like i have some serious decisions to make...

[bobafett]

The bottom line price for a tecGT setup is about $2600 for a complete package.

I chose this because I wanted increased high rpm resolution, and crank trigger systems like this are just way more accurate, ESPECIALLY at high engine speeds (where is actually matters). I could have gone with an AEM EMS System, but that would require that I do the obd1 swap first and I didn't want to bother with that. Overall cost for an AEM EMS, and the obd1 swap would probably come close to the same. And would still use a distributor.... :(

Like I mentioned earlier I don't have the unit in my hands yet, but I can give you a brief rundown of what is required to use this system:

1. you need to mount a crank trigger sensor somehow to your block. it needs to point a 1/2" thick magnetic pickup sensor at a trigger wheel that will be mounted to your crank pulley.

I found that using the holes where the PS/AC bolted up works perfectly. I think you could even do this while retaining the bracket if you used longer bolts, and designed the bracket differently.

2. You need a 7 1/4" trigger wheel machined to fit your crank pulley. It can either be welded, or bolted on, but must be very accurately centered, so it does not throw off the balance of the crank pulley.

Personally I am getting my crank pulley machined down to 1 belt, since removed PS and AC long ago. :)

3. Once you have the crank trigger wheel mounted on your pulley, and the sensor aligned properly, you have the hard work done. Wiring this unit up is very easy, as it only needs the following sensors:

- Crank Sensor, the stuff I just described

- MAP Sensor(must buy their sensors, 1, 2, 3, or 4 bar, depending on application)

- Coolant Temp Sensor (they have a metric threaded GM sensor that should fit our thermostat housing so I don't have to drill and tap, otherwise its a 3/8" npt sesnor

- Intake Air Temp (3/8 NPT, place this in intake manifold or intake piping somewhere, will have to drill and tap, but no big deal)

- Throttle Position Sensor (Can work with your stock tps sensor, wiring just gets spliced into the Electromotive ECU instead of the stock ECU)

and then optionally you can run a knock sensor or a o2 sensor if you want to, and you can run things like idle air control valves to help with cold enrichment idle or AC idle if you had ac.... but its definitely not necessary to have the engine running good. will just help with cold starts...

Other than those sensors, the ECU obviously needs power and ground and switched power, and you wire up the injectors, and wire up the ignition modules (called DFU - direct fire unit), and make sure the sensors get back to the ecu.

AND YOU'RE DONE!

Probably like 20-30 wires in total. :) SO very simple you can completely remove your engine wiring harness, all you need is the alternator wiring, oil dummy light and water temp gauge dummy, and the starter ground (I assume its a ground, might be a relay from the ignition though). That is like 8 wires, and they are all plug into the same connector. :)

I will take some pictures of my engine bay without the wiring, its still looking cluttered, but oh so much nicer than it was!

['A20A3']

okay boba i think you just sold me on that!! sounds way easier than obd1 conversion. i can't wait until this gets up and running!

one more question...what happens with the distributor? if you don't need it how do you not run it? you would have to figure out a way to keep oil from blasting out of there...

edit>>>also, where are you gonna mount the individual coil packs??

[bobafett]

You can either keep the distributor there to look ugly and keep oil in, or buy this part:

Honda P/N: 12513-P30-000 for $10 ish
Also on ebay you can find metal ones with rubber o-rings that cost like $30 ish...they look much cooler...
http://www.lightningmotorsports.com/images/golden_eagle/strpr_camseal.jpg

It is the cam seal plug for the cam that DOESN'T have a distributor on it for a DOHC motor. :) fits like a charm! I have one installed on my motor now.
Just have to pop off the rocker assembly, slide this piece in there, tighten it all back down, and enjoy a cleaner engine bay!

I am going to mount the DFU/Coilpacks to a plate that has little tabs on it that utilizes the dizzy mounting holes....just a flat plate with little vertical tabs coming off the edge will allow me to mount the coilpacks right where the distributor used to be, and it will be nice and close to the spark plugs, so I won't have to deal with complicated spark plug wire routing.

WHICH REMINDS ME, you cannot use the normal low resistance wiring. This ignition system works because of duration with fullly intense spark the whole time, as opposed to an MSD style setup, which is a capacitive discharge, which is a very powerful burst that does not last for a very long. I don't know WHY, but the bottom line is that you don't want to use the super low impedance spark plug wires.

They recommend something like the Moroso BlueMax spiral core wires, I believe you can get a universal kit, and crimp the ends so you have flexibility over that. But they suggested a few choices to me, some were more expensive than others, but I remember that I was going to look into the BlueMax setup... :) Notice these are 800 ohm, instead of 25 ohm like the ones we would normal buy!

http://www.moroso.com/articles/articledisplay3.asp?article=AboutSpiralCore.html

EDIT: Other than getting the crank pulley machined to accept the crank trigger wheel, I think this is FAR easier than an OBD1 setup. It is obviously a lot more expensive (though I probably would have had 1000 into an obd1 swap and chipped ecu), but if you are planning on going with OBD1 and THEN running a more elegant solution on top of it (hondata, aem ems, etc) then a solution like this might make more sense.

It is certainly not for everybody. Personally I am looking forward to it though.

[TWOLOUDNPROUD]

http://electromotive-inc.com/products/tec3.html :)

obdwhat?

NOW THAT SWEET:cheers:

[MessyHonda]

dont make fun of obd1 tho.

[bobafett]

You can't even compare a standalone race engine management system with an oem engine management system.

They don't DO the same things, they aren't meant to do the same things, they are for different people, and different applications.

I can make fun of obd1 if i want, because for MY application, it doesn't make sense. Its not like obd1 swap is gods gift to engine management.

In fact the only reason i wanted it in the first place is to control my ignition timing with a laptop instead of a vacuum line. not because it is a super accurate awesome system to use for a radically built turbo car.

Its apples to orange honestly...

Don't get me wrong obd1 is a HUGE step in the right direction in that it allows an electronically controlled distributor, and (just so happens to be) a chipable, easy to mod ecu with lots of free software to tune it with..

A standalone setup is just another step in another direction. For me, and a handful of other guys.... If it wasn't useful people wouldn't pay crazy money for it and we would all be using crome free tunes on p75's. :)

I can imagine not everyone on this board wants to remove every damn sensor on their car and throw them away so they only have to run just a few of them. Personally, I didn't want to bother modding the shit out of a distributor just to be left with a semi-accurate engine management system.

lol dont be upset about obd1 though... I am not picking on it...

[EricW]

I'm running those Moroso blue max 11mm wires and they are a pain to crimp correctly with the vise tool since i couldn't find one that fit around the wire.

[bobafett]

Yeah I wasted an entire set of MSD wires due to not crimping properly.
Finally found the MSD vise crimp tool, for $10 lol
http://www.msdpowersports.com/images/pn3503.jpg
PN 3503


With this tool it was a cinch when I did my crane wires.... But I think you are right that the 11mm wire would be a bitch with the vise tool. :)

How did you end up getting them to crimp? Patience? I found it was almost impossible to do with 'normal' crimping tools. It seemed like the crimps were good enough, but when I would pull the leads off the cap, the would slip. :(

Too bad they don't make an 11mm vise jig! (that i have found yet)

[bobafett]

Actually it looks like this tool might do the job!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Taylor-spark-plug-wire-termination-crimping-tool_W0QQitemZ250171961106QQihZ015QQcategoryZ33692 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[EricW]

Yeah I wasted an entire set of MSD wires due to not crimping properly.
Finally found the MSD vise crimp tool, for $10 lol
http://www.msdpowersports.com/images/pn3503.jpg
PN 3503


With this tool it was a cinch when I did my crane wires.... But I think you are right that the 11mm wire would be a bitch with the vise tool. :)

How did you end up getting them to crimp? Patience?

I used the crimp tool and pair of wire crimpers but it worked out pretty well.

[EricW]

Actually it looks like this tool might do the job!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Taylor-spark-plug-wire-termination-crimping-tool_W0QQitemZ250171961106QQihZ015QQcategoryZ33692 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Yeah that's the one I've got. I bought mine from summit along with the wires, their warehouse in Georgia get my packages to me within two days, its great when I need parts and don't want to pay the extra for express shipping.

[snoopyloopy]

man, looks like teh tits so far. make me wanna turbo my car. get a b20a and turbo it. but i think if i ever go turbo, i'll actually try something rather unorthodox. since i own a dsm, i've been on the dsm forums quite a bit, looking into things. so i was thinking that for engine management, i'd modify an a/b20 to accept a dsm ecu and run dsmlink on it, although that shouldn't be that hard since quite a few of the sensors are the same. i figure if people feel confident running their dsms into the high 20s, some even into low 30s of boost pressure using it, it can't be that bad. and shouldn't be any more of a custom install than most other ems and is generally cheaper.

[bobafett]

I had a friend who is into DSM's suggest the same thing to me at one point. I certainly don't know the details, but it might be a feasable setup. it would be interesting to see what dizzy you would need to use, and if the dsm dizzy would work on the a20.

[A20A1]

That spring doesn't look like the usual throttle spring :D
Glad it works though.

I'm sure you'd be find with a nice dual spring from a carb though too. :D


Thanks for that side view of the clearance of your turbo from the cross member, it gives me a better idea of how to build a manifold since I don't have a 3G to run to to make those judgments.

[bobafett]

yeah the throttle spring was sort a last minute thing that allowed the car to not idle at 4000 rpm. :) tried a few different springs to get the tension right, and I guess I will keep it on there until it proves to be unreliable, but for right now it works. lol

[A20A1]

oh yes, I can rotate the center section (so the oil train is pointing towards the oil pan) and I can rotate the compressor housing and point the outlet straight up (as much as will clear the manifold) which should allow me to use a 90 degree silicone coupler, and head right for the hole in the body to get me down into the fender/bumper area.

if I point the outlet down I get the benefit of being further away from the manifold, but it will be harder to route plumbing, unless I bore a huge hole somewhere in the body.



Thanks for the info, I always thought that the orientation was built in... this opens up more possibilities for my manifold now... it's so hard not having a turbo and car/engine to build from.


so how low is the turbo flange on your manifold in relation to the bottom row of bolts/studs that hold the manifold to the head?

[Cheeseburger]

cant wait for this!!!!!!

[89T]

bobbafett , i do have an update on the discussion we had not to long ago. i'll send you an email later.