help me go fast on the dirt

[honda on dirt]

Gentlemen and Ladies, and all ya honda gurus out here..... ive got an 89 accord Sei a20a3 in her and we need more power and LSD .... i also have laying here a complete 91 prelude b21a1 with trans and wiring harness and ecm, a 91 accord f22a3 with 5 speed and all wiring and ecm, both of these engine trans combos are loose and i saved all the mounts too, but not the subframes. Question is which combo will work best, I do have welder, plasma cutter, acess too a lathe and the rules for where i race are somewhat relaxed, but i cant use shiny parts or anything that sticks out such as aem regulators or edelbrock manifolds, if i make it look stock there will be no questions asked. And so far this has been the best forum that i have found for information on my TOYS that go fast and turn left............. thank you all............. and yes i will post pics of the cars when i get em here

[irondragon013]

Welcome to the forum. I believe that either of your engines will need a bit of fabricating. The lude b engines I think have a different mount setup than the rest of the b series, though not sure about the b21a1. Sounds like you have plenty of tools to work with. The thing is keeping it stock looking. I know that there is a member on here that does dirt track racing and has done very well with the a20 engines. Other members should be able to give you more info

[labeledsk8r]

hate to say it but both of those engines are utter crap.... that F engine has hardly any more power then a rebuilt A motor. and that B21 well that was a mistake from honda.. thus why it was only in one year of car... something about useing aluminum internals that mostly riped itself apart from the inside.. not to good... really i think youd be wasteing time and money doing those swaps

[forrest89sei]

Yeah I agree with sk8ter, Sell off those engines and build up the A Series.

[2ndGenGuy]

The problem with the B21 was that it had carbon-fiber-reinforced cylinder walls. The material was so strong that it would shred the rings, and the factory hatchings were still in the cylinder walls from the original honing, even after 100,000 miles (yes I read that on Wikipedia :tongue: ). If the engine doesn't smoke, there's nothing else wrong with it really. Maybe there are some fancy rings you can put on the pistons now for some crazy compression. :D

[honda on dirt]

The B21A1 motor is the same basically as the B20A5 out of the 88-91 preludes in fact i have the b20 head on the b21 right now....had a problem with the front mount ,timing belt and a concrete wall.... valves and cam carriers lost. Selling the current motors and doing a complete build on the a20 is sorta out of the question....a money problem... labor ive got the time to do that.... the A20 is gonna get freshened in the next month head job,decked , rings ,bearing , and the normal stuff....while its out i wanted to get a second engine combo readt to drop in so shoudl catastrophic failure occur i have one ready to go........ thank yas again

[labeledsk8r]

the B20 and the B21 are ALMOST the same engines, like stated, theres a problem with the cylinder walls and piston rings... there crap engines and i have never seen them last past 100,000 miles without something going rong.... and like stated... the F engines isnt any more powerfull then the A mayby 2 HP tops lol... really i dont see why you cant stick with the A engine.. theres a few guys on here that dirt race and tear up the track using A's.. theres a guy useing a 2nd gen lude with a A20 and he seems to have alot of wins under his belt

[snoopyloopy]

do the f22 if those are your only choices. later on, you could just drop in an h22 if the rules would allow it. or an h23 if they don't allow vvt. but either way, the f22 and h22 transmissions are cross compatible. so you can use an lsd h22 tranny on the f22, possibly rebuild it with longer f22 gears since you're dirt track, not straight line accel.

[2oodoor]

If your racing dirt track don't you need to stay with an engine that actually came the car.
wildshovelbill06 here, lead the points over all classes in his A20 power 2nd gen lude, the motor came out of his 3rd gen Accord. (rolled it in practice season) He went undefeated against some pretty hot contenders, up until the season points winners were set. I watched him lap some modified stock 4 RWD during practice laps. He sold the car and the new owner is still winning with it. That car was basically stock :naughty: So , yep A20 will be fine ...

[itzdave]

:welcome:you can always go with the JDM B20, not only a nice HP upgrade, but you also get killa torque gains, then you can mod it a little too.:cheers:

[2oodoor]

no way would I waste a JDM motor on the dirt track, and btw it doesnt take sick power to win. It takes endurance, handling, consistency, and driving skills. Bill's car (and driver) had all that. The A20 is dam strong in the bottom end stock, you would just need a little mild head work, and get some fuel to it. You can take out all that idle BS controls crap. His car was auto tx too, batta bing batta boom.
You dont want a fwd car to drift on dirt, so set your alignment to fit the track, tie your roll cage in across the back towers and get it in the floor as close to the front kick panels as you can.

[labeledsk8r]

no way would I waste a JDM motor on the dirt track, and btw it doesnt take sick power to win. It takes endurance, handling, consistency, and driving skills. Bill's car (and driver) had all that. The A20 is dam strong in the bottom end stock, you would just need a little mild head work, and get some fuel to it. You can take out all that idle BS controls crap. His car was auto tx too, batta bing batta boom.
You dont want a fwd car to drift on dirt, so set your alignment to fit the track, tie your roll cage in across the back towers and get it in the floor as close to the front kick panels as you can.

exactly, i dont know the regulations for what raceing you do, but i can think of alot of mods that can be done that look stock or not out of place, includeing cam shaft, head work, electrical, lightend flywheel, engine rebuild with higher compresion pistons/etc. , prelude trany or teg hybrid trany, B16 intake manifold, fuel pump, injectors, i can make the list go on.. and guess what 97% of that can all be made to look stock... i just dont see the point in putting a F engine in the car when the A makes the same power,,, except for mayby H swaping down the road... just my idea

[ZackieDarko]

not an SE-i :(

[coope]

an h22 head will fit on that f22 with no prob if u want to do that

[honda on dirt]

well gents, my mind has been made up.....the A20 it is...considering i just dug another one out of salvage for nothing....and it ran...some people. Now the next question, how do i eliminate the rev limiter without getting the ecm burnt,it is injected,or what company doesnt put there name one the ecm? The tech officials are strict about the ECMs, injectors, and any part that is shiny, has been DQ'ed for a cold air set up. And where do i find all the go fast goodies here in the states?? Would i increase fuel flow by putting the prelude injectors in, with an o2 simulator, or am i back to a burnt ecm? Keep up the good help and as it stands 3GEEZ.com is gonna be on the car if the administrators so its fine, just something i can do to say THANKS and let everyone know about all ya guys out there............. a million thanks

[labeledsk8r]

um.. i would think aobut makeing the engine able to handle higher revs before removeing your limiter... no inspection tech will know the difrence between swaped injectors.... nor almost any of those parts... even the B16 intake manifold is from another honda (unless you buy aftermarket) and should look factory, cam shafts well you cants see them so no worrys there (i know damn well they dont pull the valve cover before a race), you need to search around a bit... all or alot of the parts have been listed... i know alot of what i listed have how to's and like that on instalation, good luck

[ZackieDarko]

you sir need the dual valve springs from a 2g lude and a delta 272 cam along with a GE cam gear

[2oodoor]

no need for a trick ecm, these are not obd 1-2
I dont think there is a rev limiter either, per say. not the same as something newer or msd box. You will be floating the valves more before that would kick in anyway.
The FWD dirt class is about budget cars and fun, You really wont need a lot of fancy gadgets to have a competitive car. But then that would be me taling to a brick wall I can tell already.. lol

[carotman]

Yes, there is a Rev Limiter in those. However, the ECU is usually made by matsushita (unless cali emissions) and no one has yet chipped those.

[2oodoor]

I stand corrected on the rev limiter .
It must not function like newer ones or it must do it thru the injectors and not ign cutout.
I need to go look at something now. I was under the impression no body had those on these cars unless they had a msd6a.
edit.. ok here it is
Link >>>http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58167&highlight=rev+limiter

You may want to check your tracks rulebook for Ign mods, You can get a fancy tach that incorperates an ign rev limiter or MSD control box.

[honda on dirt]

ok.... here goes... engine rules...completely stock, clear fuel, no aftermarket performance parts, or ya can see them at Spoonriverspeedway.com , click for the hornet rules....and yes i am counting on the tech officials inability to notice something that they cant see....its only cheatin if ya get caught and lord knows more than one person is.... reason asking about revlimiter is at the last 1/8 of the straight im bouncing it there and could use the other 750 to 1000 rpm then no shifting...taller tires roll off the rims in the corners and im already running adjustable suspensions... believe it or not the probes are the ones im having a hard time with....yes im doing a cam and i can hide an msd box where the heater box was........and soon all the parts i remove will be here to help fund this crazy toy...she is an 89sei so if ya need anything that dont move the car let me know and those parts will be handled with kid gloves thanks

[2oodoor]

wow the rules are not so bad, but the class is wild. We have Extreme 4 which is fwd, and stock 4 for rwd, then like a modified stock 4 class. PUtting that honda out there with mustangs, pintos, rwd is a tall order. YOu are having trouble with the Probes.. wow. ok they have some tricks for those., You will have to be careful with ign mods.
You keep popping the right front tire I bet. You can use saturn ion 15 inch wheels steelies, that would get some gearing for you . but you should get the cam , smooth the head parts up , 3 angle valve seats, play with the ign timing some to see if you can move the band a little for the ends of the 1/8th
I dont know if a LSD would benefit you , depends on the track I guess.
There are some good threads on bypassing the fuel pressure cut , use advanced search , type in rev limiter, and change the box to thread title only, then click search.
www.trackforums.com , Modoc Speedway number 7 Honda lude, now is black number 01 or something