Crankshaft Seal, please advise

[roofusgooner]

OKay, I took my car to the...dealership of all places for an oil change so that they could also "inspect" my seat belt for that open campaign about it and diagnose the problems I've been having including a rough, missing idle, and oil loss. I will just quote the tech:
"Tech reports significant oil leak which appears to come from the crank shaft oil seal. Tech reports residual oil around engine area and compartment. Before any further diagnostic can continue to address this concern. The tech recommends that the crank seal (under engine covers) must be replaced $1077.00+tax to start..."
He found some suspension stuff too:
"Tech also reports that the right side inner CV boot is leaking, and r/s outer boot is cracked - and that the r/s tie rod is loose. Tech recommends to replace above with new honda parts. $1301.38+tax. Repair would have to be followed by a 4 wheel alignment to adjust suspension adjusters $79.95+tax....Tech reports that the left front upper ball joint is loose and the left out CV joints are leaking."
Okay, so I'm going to get a second opinion, but assuming that the second opinion concurs, what should I do? I know the crank seal requires dropping the tranny, which I have neither the know how, nor the tools, nor the facilities to do. I do realize that anywhere besides the dealership will be much cheaper, but still. Are these suspension problems a difficult job and could it be done with a jackstand instead of a lift? What are my options, because even at half price, I don't have just $1000 laying around. ARGGGGG

[carotman]

There's no way this is going to cost over 400 bucks if you do it yourself.

I'm sure the crank seal doesn't leak. Usually, it's the oil pan seal that leaks. The seal itself is cheap. If the front seal leaks, it's easy to replace since it's the one behind the engine covers. The rear seal could leak but this is rather rare.

I would just get reman axles. I'm sure you can get both of them for like 80 bucks or something and would solve the cracked boots. The Tie-Rod isn't that expensive.

The front upper arm can be a pain to replace if you reuse the same bushings. I would just get new bushings with the new upper arm.

[2drSE-i]

i was gonna say about the same as carrot. the suspension stuff might run you 200ish for labor + parts with the alignment. Not sure about the seal though

[MessyHonda]

honda does not like old cars....they charge you alot so you can just buy a new one and be problem free for another 15 years. anyways the axles are like 200 bucks from napa and the only hard part is taking out the 32mm nut...but if you have a braker bar and some one steping on the brakes you will get it off. i never done the seal but i think you would have to take off the crank pully and might as well do the timing belt and water pump while you are at it.

if you have a mechanic friend...invite him over...and buy him some beer and pizza.....makes things easy when you have 2 people.

[cygnus x-1]

"Tech reports significant oil leak which appears to come from the crank shaft oil seal. Tech reports residual oil around engine area and compartment. Before any further diagnostic can continue to address this concern. The tech recommends that the crank seal (under engine covers) must be replaced $1077.00+tax to start..."

The labor rate is probably about right for them (dealership) to replace a crank seal. Remember that their labor rates are probably $100/hr or more. But it's more likely that the oil pan is leaking. That's BS though about needing to do that before any further diagnostics though. First thing to do is to clean off the oil pan and the lower timing cover really good, and then drive around a little. Then check around the pan and cover and see where the oil is. I would also check around the valve cover gasket by the upper timing cover. If it's leaking there it can drip down inside the cover and then come out at the bottom, making it look like the crank seal is leaking. Any decent mechanic should be able to handle an oil pan/valve cover leak. It's basic stuff.




He found some suspension stuff too:
"Tech also reports that the right side inner CV boot is leaking, and r/s outer boot is cracked - and that the r/s tie rod is loose. Tech recommends to replace above with new honda parts. $1301.38+tax. Repair would have to be followed by a 4 wheel alignment to adjust suspension adjusters $79.95+tax....Tech reports that the left front upper ball joint is loose and the left out CV joints are leaking."

Again, pretty straightforward stuff. A decent suspension shop could do this no problem for much cheaper.


Okay, so I'm going to get a second opinion, but assuming that the second opinion concurs, what should I do? I know the crank seal requires dropping the tranny, which I have neither the know how, nor the tools, nor the facilities to do. I do realize that anywhere besides the dealership will be much cheaper, but still. Are these suspension problems a difficult job and could it be done with a jackstand instead of a lift? What are my options, because even at half price, I don't have just $1000 laying around. ARGGGGG

Forget the crank seal for now. Make sure the leak isn't somewhere else first and then look at the crank seal. The tie rod and ball joint wouldn't be too bad for someone that has done suspension work before. The axles are a bitch because of the "Big Axle Nut(tm)". Get the second opinion first and go from there.

C|

[roofusgooner]

Okay, if we assume that the crank shaft seal is leaking, what in the world would cause it?

[Hauntd ca3]

is unusual for crank seals to leak but not unheard of.
how many miles you got on it?
if 120 thou plus it would be gettin a bit tired
rear one means trans off and front one means cam belt off, so you may as well do belt,tensioner,idlers and water pump while at it
saves takin it all off at later date.
wouldnt replace cv's unless they are clicking.
when you do the boots, take the cv,s off the shafts,take the balls and cage out to give it a good clean
reassemble and fil them with new grease
just check the balls and cages for signs of wearing through the hardening
any where it looks like its worn through, throw the joint
ball joints and bushes are cheap as chips
should be able to replace the lot for $150 or so
anyway sounds like fun for you

[nswst8]

If you have some mechanical skill, this is a DIY project. Remember that these cars are aged and do need the seals replaced every now and then.

[2oodoor]

more likely the oil pump leaking than the front crank seal

[russiankid]

more likely the oil pump leaking than the front crank seal
I second that. I thought my crank seal was leaking so i bought a new one, and when i got the cover off the pump was leaking and not the crank seal. I still replaced the crank seal.

[AC439]

I agree with everybody here. Absolutely no dealer !

For the $3000+ they quoted you, $1500 goes to their marketing/advertisement (which most of it is their entertainment money), $500 is the bonus that goes into the wallet of the repair shop director. The mechanic only get ~$120. $500~$700 for parts mark up. The rest are their party money.

There are many independent mechanics that can do an equal or better job and charge much less. Most of them are ex-honda mechanics and they now have their own shops.

[roofusgooner]

The car only has 45000 miles but it sat for long periods of time including at least a year or so before I got it. I get the feeling like he didn't maintain it too much. Do you think he might have be lax on the oil changes and that caused this?

[2oodoor]

could be, who knows
the thing is these motors have some o-ring funny shaped type gaskets in the oil path related parts, and they get brittle , shrink and split so oil starts leaking.
there is one under the oil filter adapter, one under the oil pump too.

[w261w261]

I don't know whether it's the main engine seal or not, but I'm pretty sure that the Honda mechanic didn't know either. Our cars do leak oil from a few places...read my message (#8) in this thread:

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63365

When you get an oil leak, the wind blows it everywhere, making it hard to determine the original location. Follow the instructions in the message, and you'll have a better idea where you stand.

If you do have to replace the rear seal, use a Honda brand seal only. The cost is minimally more, and nothing compared to the $400 in labor to re-drop the tranny to do the job again. I made my mechanic do it again *twice* because he tried to save a buck on an aftermarket seal. My opinion is to only use Honda brand stuff, particularly when the added cost is small.

Don't mess around with loose ball joints. They fail and you are headed for trouble. 45,000 miles? Hard to believe a ball joint is failing at that mileage.

[nswst8]

Yeah, I put in a felpro rear main seal and been regretting it ever since, the only good thing is that it only leaked minimally. When it comes to the gaskets and seals use only honda seals and gaskets.

[roofusgooner]

okay, yeah, I'll definitely use a honda seal. I know I already got the one by the oil pump done. I'm gonna start with the oil filter gasket and move on from there. Maybe I can avoid dropping the tranny. I think my mechanic replaced the valve cover gasket but I'll double check.

[roofusgooner]

Oh, I forgot to mention, it wasn't on the paper but he mentioned something about a bad cam. I do have a bad idle, but I didn't think that it was possible for a cam to go bad? What do you think? How much would a new camshaft cost to have put it? I looked at the howto but I don't know nothing about TDC and timing.

[russiankid]

If you are going to change the rear engine seal you will have to drop the tranny. For the oil filter base, just take your time as its a little tricky. I doubt your cam is the issue. You may need to get the timing adjusted.

[AccordEpicenter]

Yeah, I put in a felpro rear main seal and been regretting it ever since, the only good thing is that it only leaked minimally. When it comes to the gaskets and seals use only honda seals and gaskets.

only use genuine honda seals for critical areas unless you like doing the job twice. Also, somtimes distributor oil leaks look like rear main seal leaks, check that also

[roofusgooner]

no, the cam thing may be the solution of a seperate issue, a rough idle. It misses at idle about half the time.

[Dr_Snooz]

Some random thoughts:

- This sounds like the dealer my mom loves to frequent. They find all sorts of little problems that they manage to turn into ungodly expensive repairs. From their write up, it sounds like the oil leak is coming from the FRONT of the engine ("under the engine cover" not from between the engine and tranny). The quote for that is ridiculously high. There's no way it costs that much. Even worse, a timing belt service from a good shop (~$600-$800) would include replacement of the camshaft and crank seals, so these guys would charge you $1,000 and not even change the timing belt while they have it all open. Shame on them.
- There are three things under the engine cover that can leak oil: camshaft seal, crank seal or oil pump. Everyone else here seems really blase about your leak, but I'll caution you to fix it ASAP. I had a leak I ignored. Turned out to be the oil pump. I was 200 miles from home when it lost pressure entirely. I drove home and burned up the engine in consequence. Get it fixed.
- The quotes for the suspension work are way too high also. The work should be done soon, as you can destroy your tires if things are wiggling around. You can verify their finding by lifting the car grabbing the components in question and jerking on them. If they don't move, there's no problem. If you feel slop, replace them.
- You'll need to do an alignment after replacing tie rod ends and ball joints.
- I'll bet $10 you don't have any leaky CV joints. At all. My mom's dealer does this all the time. Every time you take the car in, you'll buy new CV boots...even if they aren't leaking. Poke your head under the car and verify what they're telling you.
- If it turns they are leaking, ignore it until the joints start clattering when you go around corners. CV boots are only slightly cheaper than new CV axles (with new boots on them) and the labor to replace axles is less than to replace boots. Don't let them sell you boots.

[2oodoor]

you nailed it prosenfe
My oil pump is leaking and I am an idoit to keep driving it like that, not only does it soak the timing belt, if it is the bottom gasket in the oil pump it will gradually loose oil pressure the warmer the engine gets. Mine is parked now until it get the oil pump situated.

[russiankid]

you nailed it prosenfe
My oil pump is leaking and I am an idoit to keep driving it like that, not only does it soak the timing belt, if it is the bottom gasket in the oil pump it will gradually loose oil pressure the warmer the engine gets. Mine is parked now until it get the oil pump situated.

Exactly right. My oil leak would get worse as the engine would get hotter. Sure enough it was the oil pump. It's all fixed now:wave:

[roofusgooner]

Yeah, it was the oil filter gasket. But now my car won't start...http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63756