Twin Electric turbo setup

[Soopitup]

Hey,
I know you must be all clicking on this cuz you're thinking "what the hell was he smokin" haha but check out the idea n leave feedback if you want..

I have never heard of anyone trying these.. They are cheap like $60 a piece, or you can make them for like $40-70. Found nice Intercooler piping kits for like $60-$150 on ebay. Mine as well try it out.. They supposibly add 2-3lbs of boost. And considering they arent very big, they are cheap, and you can put them where ever you have room in the engine bay, why not give it a shot.. right?

Even if you are laughing at this after reading the first paragraph, if you can give some ideas or help me out with this thanks alot.

Nate

[AccordEpicenter]

they are a waste

[2drSE-i]

supposedly is the key word in your paragraph im afraid...

[02GTP]

trust me, dont do it. once u get into higher rpms, the engine probably takes in more air than those can push out. they also put a HUGE strain on your electrical system due to the extremely high amperage. they r a joke, please dont waste your money.

[Soopitup]

Right on, thats the type of information I was looking for.

But what If I wired them to a switch? that way i could have them on just for booting around at low rpms...??

[labeledsk8r]

they dont work,, even at 1,000 rpms those things have problems giveing enough air.... just forget it lol

[Soopitup]

cool haha

[02GTP]

u have to have them on a switch anyway. they suck so much power it will kill the car. and the extra load on the alt. would outweigh any gain from them.

[Accordtheory]

I remember reading that an ati procharger kit for a mustang 5.0 takes 70hp at 14lbs. Approx 740 watts=1 hp, watts= amperage x voltage, so an alternator putting out 60 amps @ 14.4 volts is only 1.167hp. Not going to be able to power any type of compressor, however, the battery probably could, say 250 amps at 12.5 volts, 4.22hp, might be enough for a few psi. However, doing this can destroy your alternator, much like trying to jump start another vehicle with your motor running can, something I never do.
I wonder how much hp it takes to drive the compressor on a gt35r with a b18c at the 600whp level..over 100?

[Hauntd ca3]

those things were designed to give a bit xtra punch for overtaking etc
have read tho that they are rubbish and shouldnt be used unless you a dick
a turbo if corretly sized shouldnt present any measurable hp loss at all
i think it only takes less than a hp to spin a turbo at 100,000rpm
a supercharger would tho at those hp levels
horribly inefficient things
specially roots style or even screw types
the bst super chargers are the ones that are effectively belt driven turbos
stick an aircon clutch on them so you can switch them on and off mad max style

[Soopitup]

well how hard would it be to set up a belt drivin supercharger on a A series engine? cuz i just dont wanna custom make a turbo manifold n all that great stuff... haha

[labeledsk8r]

well how hard would it be to set up a belt drivin supercharger on a A series engine? cuz i just dont wanna custom make a turbo manifold n all that great stuff... haha


no one has done it (yet) im sure it can be done...you just need enough money in the bank to build everything custom

[AccordEpicenter]

i have only seen one real e supercharger, and it drew hundreds of amps to run, and you could only run it for like 10-15 sec. The electrical draw is soo great it pretty much negates any real advantage to using it. Turbos are much more efficient than superchargers anyway. Dont try to reinvent the wheel, use what works

[Accordtheory]

a turbo if corretly sized shouldnt present any measurable hp loss at all
i think it only takes less than a hp to spin a turbo at 100,000rpm


I'm sick of having to correct your posts, so other people don't get incorrect info.
How old are you? You post like a teenager who just started learning and now thinks he knows everything, when he really doesn't know shit.

I knew someone would misinterpret what I meant. Leave it to you to be the one. I was talking about hp to drive the compressor, never once did I say that hp was coming off the crank. And wtf are you talking about, "to spin a turbo a 100,000rpm" anyway, you think all turbos and motors are the same? If the procharger compressor takes 70hp at only 14lbs, the gt35r at 30lbs probably takes even more. It just doesn't take it from the crank. And as far as how much hp the backpress takes to create that 30lbs, that's a hell of a lot more than 1hp. You think 30+lbs of exhaust manifold pressure only costs 1hp? For fuck's sake, Think before you post.

[Soopitup]

ya i was thinkin he didnt know what the hell he was talking about, lol

[AccordEpicenter]

I'm sick of having to correct your posts, so other people don't get incorrect info.
How old are you? You post like a teenager who just started learning and now thinks he knows everything, when he really doesn't know shit.

I knew someone would misinterpret what I meant. Leave it to you to be the one. I was talking about hp to drive the compressor, never once did I say that hp was coming off the crank. And wtf are you talking about, "to spin a turbo a 100,000rpm" anyway, you think all turbos and motors are the same? If the procharger compressor takes 70hp at only 14lbs, the gt35r at 30lbs probably takes even more. It just doesn't take it from the crank. And as far as how much hp the backpress takes to create that 30lbs, that's a hell of a lot more than 1hp. You think 30+lbs of exhaust manifold pressure only costs 1hp? For fuck's sake, Think before you post.

as a rule, the exhaust manifold/turbine pressure can be generally 2.5x the boost pressure, so if youre pushing 30psi boost, 75psi worth of exhaust backpressure wouldnt be exaggerating. Prochargers are nice, but a properly engineered turbo setup will make more power, due to the turbos greater efficiencies, psi per psi. It just depends what you want, a top end monster or somthing stout off the line.

[Accordtheory]

as a rule, the exhaust manifold/turbine pressure can be generally 2.5x the boost pressure

That's a rule that's mostly applicable for oem setups..like a .48 a/r housing.
An efficient setup is closer to 1:1.
It is actually possible to have the turbo manifold backpress be less than the IM press, as counterintuitive as this sounds.

[Accordtheory]

Here's a copy of a post from honda-tech.
the yellow line is backpressure, purple is boost
garrett t04e 57 trim
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t210/anton_ro/DSC00958.jpg

[AccordEpicenter]

any more info on the setup? Yeah, anything is possible i guess, especially on high hp builds...

[Accordtheory]

On that setup, I don't know, that guy just responded to a thread where someone was asking about press into the turbine vs press out of the compressor. I don't know what the a/r on the datalogged turbo even is.
I believe in high a/r ratios, I don't understand why so many people put small restrictive turbines on large compressors. I can understand that on a diesel, with limited rpm and almost unlimited boost capacity, but not on a gas motor. I remember a thread on honda-tech where a guy switched from a t3 turbine side to a bigger t4 side, with a larger a/r too, and gained power And spool, (same compressor). I can't remember the details, I might search for the thread later. But I do remember that his setup wasn't inefficient to start, I think he was already making like 6-700whp.

[Hauntd ca3]

well for a start guys, if you have 30 plus psi of back pressure on a turbo motor your exhaust is way to fn small
3 or 4 psi is what i'd consider the limit
by the less than 1 hp loss i was meaning that the restriction presented by the turbo costs you that to drive it if the turbo is correctly sized to the motor and the exhaust is offering below that 3-4psi back pressure
even on a motor with an under sized turbo and exhaust back pressure shouldnt exceed 10 psi.
have done measurements on large truck turbo diesils on the dyno and not past 5 psi back pressure
that guy that changed turbine size would gain hp as the bigger housing would present less restriction to gas flow and if the turbne wheel was of the right design would gain hp and have no noticable diff in spool up speed
its a matter spending the time to match all the parts of the turbo and exhaust to the intended use of the motor
factories use a small exhaust to limit the shaft speed to make the turbos last for the intended life of the motor and small turbine housings to have quick spool up for drivablity

[Accordtheory]

You are a FUCKING IDIOT.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING
STOP POSTING ON 3GEEZ.

[AccordEpicenter]

lol at ca3. But i dont get the idea of using a small turbine either, kinda why i convinced bobafett to keep his t3/to4e instead of going to a gt28rs, that thing has such a small turbine in it, ive seen guys gain 50-100whp just by switching to a T3/to4e at the same boost level, i believe due mostly to better exhaust flow and less backpressure.

[Accordtheory]

Yeah, the backpress is a real good measure of the efficiency of the whole system. Although I guess with a bigger turbo you can have the same backpress and IM press but a higher mass flow rate.
I never looked for the thread on h-t I mentioned earlier, but it still was a trip reading how increasing the size of the turbine actually increased the spool too. Never seen that before. I guess the newer turbine was just more efficient overall.

[AccordEpicenter]

that is also true about more efficient turbines, you can get increased flow without increasing spool nessescerily. This seems to be especially true with divided tang/twin scroll housings with a separated manifold to match it, that seems to be where its at. You can have the same pressures on the cold side as on the turbine side because of the expansion of the af charge when burned, plus the velocities are greater on the exhaust side i believe...

[Accordtheory]

Great minds..or at least those unlike Hauntd ca3's, think alike.. I can't believe how dense that fucking guy is, what, does anything that makes sense just bounce off the side of his head?
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/814000-814999/814838_55_full.jpg

[AccordEpicenter]

makes me love it when noobs have no idea wtf is going on

[AccordB20A]

all i can say is lol

and all that shit you guys are stressing about just went in one ear and out the other
well i mean in one eye and out the other...

[HondaBoy]

well seems like someone is thinking of only pushing air and forgot about compensating the fuel. hmm. good way to burn up the cylinders. haha, electric superchargers. and thats because i know which ones we're talking about. not even the roots type, just a marine use one. those are crap!

[AccordEpicenter]

those things dont actually build boost. You might get .01 psi boost, they dont really do anything. A leafblower duct taped to your throttle body will do more good

[Soopitup]

Ya I now have more than enough information to throw that idea in the trash.... and that was a pretty nutty off topic arguement there...lol, good stuff..

[ghettogeddy]

ive been thinking of a belt drivin sc for a while and would easly be mounted were the ac is at just getting it ligned up right and the charge pipes installed being the prob

[2drSE-i]

ive been thinking of a belt drivin sc for a while and would easly be mounted were the ac is at just getting it ligned up right and the charge pipes installed being the prob

i am actually planning on something like that in the not so near future. Dont flame me for wanting to supercharge, its just something about being unique

[turabaka]

Nothing wrong with superchargers. At least you don't have to worry about lag then.

[Hauntd ca3]

hey
i may have got shit wrong but how bout correcting me and teaching me something
instead of baggin me
i'm a mechanic, not a speciallist
have to know bits bout everything
not lots bout 1 thing

[2drSE-i]

im afraid one of his pet peeves (ive been on the receiving end of his anger once or twice too, haha) is people presenting mis-information as fact. That is one of the reason for so much ignorance on this board tho.

[Accordtheory]

I'm done talking shit..for now anyway.
here's something useful instead, a link to a post on honda-tech about superchargers. I haven't read the whole thing, but there's some good info in there.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1997913

[AccordEpicenter]

superchargers arent bad, but i went turbo because youll make more power due to the greater efficiencies of the turbo, and boost is easily adjustable, but any forced induction is badass, esp since na power in an a20 is hard to come by

[Accordtheory]

did you check out that thread? I don't think the dude has implemented it yet, but I'm pretty sure he will at some point. I would prefer a supercharger if it could make my motor feel bigger, like a 6L vtec, with instantaneous power everywhere, but I haven't seen that yet. The car that had the lousiest powerband of any car I've ever driven was the pontiac gtp, eaton supercharged 3.8. Even the ghey ass g6 would kill it. Not really impressive off idle, huge % increase in midrange, like a turbo, then faceplant. No power over about 4.5k. That same motor cammed and with i/h/e would beat that supercharger badly. With a centrifugal compressor (procharger, vortech), the boost would rise with rpm, opposing the natural reduction in VE with rpm, which would result in a really nice powerband. But, a turbo would still beat it once you reached the limit of the fuel you're running on, since the turbo wouldn't be taking as much power away. Turbos really do rule, it's the closest thing you'll ever get to having a jet engine in your car.

[2drSE-i]

ive just always liked the idea of a supercharger on an A20. With the stock midrange being one of my favorite things about this car (not really honda-esque is it?) i just thought id like to stick with it.

[2drSE-i]

that thread is pretty cool, but i wa more interested in the centrifugal crowd of supercharging. The A/C location wasnt very appealing to me, just way too tight. I was, though, considering relocating the PS pump to where the ac is now, and having a custom shaft made to reach from the left side of the engine bay (as you see in many centrifugal B series kits) to where the PS pump is. It would require, similarly, a custom crank pulley. Unfortunately, the Rotrex superchargers (the ones i was most interested in) also spin at CW. So these, too, would need to be keyed to CCW. This is all hypothetical at this point so i dont really want to make a thread at this point in time, because no real progress will be made for ....oh say 3-4 years. I have a lot of other projects in mind ahead of this one.


EDIT: ok i just caught onto the basis of centrifugal S/C's, and they too catch peak boost at peak RPM...so they arent really what im looking for.

[Ichiban]

You guys should run the Detroit 6V-71T engine.

It's turbocharged, and supercharged!

And diesel!

And a two-stroke!

[Accordtheory]

That was a very productive contribution, guyhatesmycar. :cheers: :bong:


I'm still down with my plan of putting a turbo so huge on my motor that it basically becomes a jet engine.

[AccordEpicenter]

problem with centrifugal superchargers is they only make peak boost at peak rpm AND they do have a bit of lag compared to a positive displacement type supercharger, like a roots blower. and yes i looked thru that thread a lil. I like detroit diesels but i also like cats, particularly 3406's 3408's

[2drSE-i]

i do prefer the diverse mounting locations of the centrifugal type though. I just don't like the idea of using a custom manifold with my supercharger...id rather just run it through an Edelbrock Performer X

[Accordtheory]

It's all just a series of trade offs. If I was an oem engineer in charge of building a high powered, yet nicely driveable street car, I'd use the centrifugal setup. Like I said, the linear increase in boost will compensate for the linear reduction in VE with rpm, resulting in a really nice powerband. You might not get 330+ ft/lbs out of the a30 at 3000rpm, but you'd still get 400hp at 6800..what do you guys think? Esp with a little more cam, intake, exhaust, etc. 400hp at 6800rpm is only 308.9 ft lbs. But I'm talking about at the wheels, so It'd have to be a little more..but still doable

[AccordEpicenter]

anything is doable with time and money, but yeah, if you were going for driveability, a centrifugal setup would prolly be a much better choice than say, a big turbo, but for pure numbers, the turbo would win out

[Soopitup]

wow I am impressed on the huge discussion this post created, interesting stuff

[Accordtheory]

yeah. Either way, I want to have a say in it. Whatever, motherfuckers might tallk about my dick size, but I don't give a F. I know I can school mutherfukaz left and right. Yeah.
accordepicenter, you got my back, homie? yeah..what now, bitches?

[Hauntd ca3]

It's all just a series of trade offs. If I was an oem engineer in charge of building a high powered, yet nicely driveable street car, I'd use the centrifugal setup. Like I said, the linear increase in boost will compensate for the linear reduction in VE with rpm, resulting in a really nice powerband. You might not get 330+ ft/lbs out of the a30 at 3000rpm, but you'd still get 400hp at 6800..what do you guys think? Esp with a little more cam, intake, exhaust, etc. 400hp at 6800rpm is only 308.9 ft lbs. But I'm talking about at the wheels, so It'd have to be a little more..but still doable

that actually sounds like a good idea
has anyone thought bout super and turbo?
i think nissan done it on something a while back
think they called it the march super/turbo
think the march is a micra sized thing
would be interesting to see how that would work

[2drSE-i]

all i have to say is good luck getting it running.


What i am going for is a reliable 250 HP with 10.5 compression (91 octane gas). Maybe 8lbs of boost with a decently built motor?

[AccordEpicenter]

maybe 10-13 psi boost but it will rip pretty good as long as the tuning and managemant are in place. And accordtheory, anytime bro, anytime

[2drSE-i]

maybe 10-13 psi boost but it will rip pretty good as long as the tuning and managemant are in place. And accordtheory, anytime bro, anytime

either way, sounds likea fun setup. Light boost, reliable motor, decent tuning.


Oh and im with you guys! One of my professors always ends class by saying "Always group yourself with those smarter than you." lol.

[AccordEpicenter]

for some reason, and i think accordtheory can vouch for this, there is a huge power increase from 6-7 psi to 9-10psi... at least it seems this way

[2drSE-i]

for some reason, and i think accordtheory can vouch for this, there is a huge power increase from 6-7 psi to 9-10psi... at least it seems this way

the butt dyno gets more excited when you get close to double digits ;-)

[turabaka]

lol dude.

[AccordEpicenter]

yes, it makes my ass twitch

[Hauntd ca3]

[QUOTE=2drSE-i;859689]all i have to say is good luck getting it running.

yeah i think the super turbo thing would be a wank to get running right
but would be fun to have a go at

talked to a speed shop a year or two back bout a low pressure turbo system and they reacon that 200hp would be easy at the wheels with less than 14 psi and be reliable
sound right to any one out there?

[Accordtheory]

yeah. Either way, I want to have a say in it. Whatever, motherfuckers might tallk about my dick size, but I don't give a F. I know I can school mutherfukaz left and right. Yeah.
accordepicenter, you got my back, homie? yeah..what now, bitches?

Sorry, guys..sometimes I have a really weird sense of humor. They say it's good to be able to laugh at yourself though, right?

[Accordtheory]

has anyone thought bout super and turbo?


It can be done, but I've never seen it done in a way that is very good. I'd say if is possible to set up a supercharger system that held onto it's efficiency across the powerband, then the turbo could add onto it nicely.
What normally happens though is that if the supercharger is set up to move enough air to boost at low rpm, it's efficiency falls off at higher rpm. So when you combine that with the power loss from driving the supercharger off the crank, then what you end up with is the supercharger + turbo being less efficient than just the turbo.

However, if there was an electric clutch on the supercharger and a valve set up to bypass the charge air past the supercharger once the turbo spooled, that could be highly functional. That's probably a patentable idea right there.

I wonder how that would compare to a sequential turbo setup.. (oem supra, rx7 too, I think) That can achieve boost at low rpm, and good top end power, although it is rather complex, with all the valves and controls required.

[Hauntd ca3]

[QUOTE=Accordtheory;859868]

However, if there was an electric clutch on the supercharger and a valve set up to bypass the charge air past the supercharger once the turbo spooled, that could be highly functional. That's probably a patentable idea right there.

i think thats almost how that nissans idea woked
might just google it and come back

[Hauntd ca3]

found it
hopefully this works
www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2216/article.html

that should get you a page on the wee nissan march super turbo
mid to high 7 second 0-100kms from 930 cc
what you think that set up on a b20a would do
mid 5 sec0-100 km at a guess

[Accordtheory]

I really like when I come up with an idea and then find out it has already been done exactly as I described, and works well..nice for the ego.
But not as much as if I was the one making the money off it..

[mkymonkey]

for those of you that are going to TRY to supercharge...once you succeed you can buy one of these from me! lol

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l10/mkymonkey/anp/JRSCSuperchargerdecal.jpg

came up with it yesterday :D

[02GTP]

accordtheory, wow, just wow. so the supercharged 3.8 has the worst powerband ever? u must be kidding. i happen to have one that runs faster than oh, any car on this site. save for the motor swapped drag only cars, mine is a street car. it ran a 12.65 on street tires on its OLD setup. that thing peaks torque at 3200 rpm and makes more torque than i think ANY production honda motor. it doesnt have the greatest top end but it has a bunch of low and midrange. i pull consistant 1.8X sixty foots on street tires, who here has beat that? thats called TORQUE. and a G6 would get SMOKED by a GTP. the heads blow on the 3.8 and it has a weak cam. it runs 6psi non intercooled from a shitty roots blower and they still run mid 14's stock with 3500+ lbs and with an auto. $300 in those gets u 13's and a few grand gets u 12's, easy. that is a great engine, y has it been on wards 10 best engines a bunch of times? because it works very well and is one of the most reliable engines ever built. u should get your shit straight before u post your opinion as fact.

[Accordtheory]

Yeah? You just shrunk my ego. So much for the earlier post about that nissan..
I was just posting my experience, fuckhead. I knew someone was going to get butthurt after I said that, but I don't care, it's true. That car drove like shit. I went to the local auto mall, and was test driving cars. One of them was a gtp. I like gtps, I used to read about what people were doing to them, including everything on one of the first sites/companies to modify them, thrasher engineered performance, but that one was not very impressive, to say the least. I don't know about Your car, but a stock G6 would beat That one. Could I build a gtp that would kick ass though? Obviously. But I'd do it with a centrifugal setup, or a turbo system. I don't know about the tranny on that car though.

[Accordtheory]

Just to clarify, gtp nutswinger, I was using that car as an example to criticize the blower, not the rest of the setup either.
But now since I'm on that subject, if you like pushrod motors, good for you. Whatever. I just wish honda would build larger motors the same way they build their k20s, so everyone else would shut the fuck up.

[02GTP]

i agree, if honda made a 5 liter V8 with vtec that would kick ass. but they dont want to hurt their precious fuel economy with a V8. and yes i am a bit partial to muscle cars/pushrods, love the sound. secondly, the trannies (GTP's) do suck ass. the stock ones barely hold up and the blowers do suck. but up to 6lbs a roots blower cant be beat. after that, its heat/inefficeincy city.

[Hauntd ca3]

I really like when I come up with an idea and then find out it has already been done exactly as I described, and works well..nice for the ego.
But not as much as if I was the one making the money off it..

dunnit just piss you off eh dude?
a mate and myself built a push bike twenty years ago that we had grafted front and rear motor bike suspension on just to see if we could do it, and whats the big craze ten years later?

[2drSE-i]

by the by, Anyone know how a DC Sports header would hold up to 10-15 PSI of supercharger? It will be coated by Jethot for 1600 degrees, but what im really worried about is the welds holding up...

[Accordtheory]

It would probably hold up okay, but it also probably wouldn't be ideal for power with the supercharger. Endyn did research on this a while ago, and found that a header with shorter runners and a 4-1 collector (not tri-y) made more power. Just to cite that as an example, not saying all setups will show the same, obviously. But I doubt a dc header is anywhere near optimal. (Does it even have a real merge collector?)

[AccordEpicenter]

i really think that at 15psi its gonna be a real bottleneck in the exhaust, and if youre gonna run 15psi boost id say a 3" exhaust is ideal, and i wouldnt run anything less than a 2.5" mandrel bent. Supercharged engines like large diameter short runners in a header it seems

[2drSE-i]

well the primaries are pretty short, but the secondaries are kinda long. The pipes themselves are way skinny, and the collector diameter is only 2 inches. I tend to agree with you on the bottleneck issue, though. Im not sure though, i think i really want to stay under 10 PSI. Its all up in the air, i may make a supercharger thread where we can toss ideas back and forth.