Important Oil Filter Update

[lostforawhile]

well it's happened,just found this on NTPOG,i know the pics are down but i copied the quote, used to be bosch and stp were the closest filters you could get to the original high quality factory filter,now they have started making them off shore out of cheap parts, i was at the H.A.M.B. reading another oil filter thread and i deceided to look for the NTPOG thread,and found this new info.
What Not To Use: Bosch, STP, and Wal-Mart Supertech
While both the STP and the Bosch filters were at one point good filters, they are now manufactured off shore of sub-standard parts. The filter assemblies tended not to have even pleats and generally less media than other comparable filters. There was also a complete lack of a well functioning by-pass valve. With most filters there is an obvious and discrete by-pass valve, but with these filters the can spring and the by-pass valve are the same. The real issue is that in order for the filter to properly by-pass the entire filter assembly would have to move down during use. That is actually not possible with filter assembly properly seating into the anti-drain back valve. This means that the by-pass will effectively never work. In the center of the of picture below you see the filter assembly (top) and the can spring/by-pass valve (bottom). (The can spring / by-pass valve would flip over and into the filter assembly.)
they reccomend the wix over there at the HAMB ,a lot of serious old school engine guys,
they are the same way we are about fram,they suck, but now that the bosch has gone crap we are out of luck. other then the wix

[2drSE-i]

either way, my engine blows up because of a shitty oil filter, ill be able to prove it in court.

[forrest89sei]

Well that sucks least we had something to depend on, even honda filters are getting shitty.

They used to be Toyo Roko and now there filtech

These might be worth looking into there JDM and have pretty good reviews even better then the USDM and Canada Honda oem filters http://cgi.ebay.com/5-JDM-Honda-HAMP-Oil-Filters-CRX-Civic-Fit-Integra-RSX_W0QQitemZ110241636493QQihZ001QQcategoryZ33661Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[lostforawhile]

the factory honda oil filters you get in the us are garbage. in japan they have good ones, but if you even try to order the original jdm filter, they will substitute it for the crap ones they sell here. i wish all the pics on the site were working right now,but they found the filters honda sells here are just like fram. they keep the jdm filters over there in japan,only way to get them is to go over there.

[2oodoor]

I don't see a problem if you stay on top of maintenance. Yes I understand the issue, do your own tests, invest $20 in your local brands and cut them open to eliminate the he said she said bullshit surveys on the internet.
Is your peace of mind for filtration on your vehicle investment worth $20? Certainly it is.
Truth be known there are a lot of couterfiet parts out there in every brand and area of service you can imagine. You can't say fram (or any other brands) sucks in Texas then say it sucks in NY, they could be totally different parts under the same number.

[lostforawhile]

I don't see a problem if you stay on top of maintenance. Yes I understand the issue, do your own tests, invest $20 in your local brands and cut them open to eliminate the he said she said bullshit surveys on the internet.
Is your peace of mind for filtration on your vehicle investment worth $20? Certainly it is.
Truth be known there are a lot of couterfiet parts out there in every brand and area of service you can imagine. You can't say fram (or any other brands) sucks in Texas then say it sucks in NY, they could be totally different parts under the same number.well this is north texas prelude owners group, they are a pretty serious site. they spent a lot of time and money cutting open filters to do this test and they redo this test from time to time to see if any changes were made. this is a well known test thats been up for a while. the fram ones have well known problems and are universally known as shit. most guys who work on cars can tell you that. i've cut them open myself and found strings and junk in them,and yes the end caps are cardboard. this change in the bosch/stp filters makes sense, because recently the robert bosch company was bought by kiddie, about the time the quality went all to hell.

[forrest89sei]

Well these HAMP filters I speak of are only sold in japan, so I think they might be worth a look

[snoopyloopy]

i use k&n, mobil 1, or purolator filters anyway. and i can swear this is about the second or third time i'm seeing this thread go around.

[lostforawhile]

i use k&n, mobil 1, or purolator filters anyway. and i can swear this is about the second or third time i'm seeing this thread go around.no this is updated info,the bosch used to be the best filters,and the stp were made by the same company,now they are crap comared to what they used to be. used to be the bosch were the best ones after they cut them apart,this is updated info, they started making them somewhere else.

[russiankid]

Weird. I stick to Purolator though.

[forrest89sei]

I have a NIB STP from a year ago someone should buy it then :P

[Vanilla Sky]

I guess I'm back to purolators now.

Napa isn't open when I can get over there, and I always do oil changes last minute.

[2oodoor]

well this is north texas prelude owners group, they are a pretty serious site. they spent a lot of time and money cutting open filters to do this test and they redo this test from time to time to see if any changes were made. this is a well known test thats been up for a while. the fram ones have well known problems and are universally known as shit. most guys who work on cars can tell you that. i've cut them open myself and found strings and junk in them,and yes the end caps are cardboard. this change in the bosch/stp filters makes sense, because recently the robert bosch company was bought by kiddie, about the time the quality went all to hell.
thanks for recalling attention to this
Not in defense of Fram, but they do have a couple of different lines, which line? cardboard? I guess as long as it is not pasteboard, wow...what is the purpose of having anything over the endcap inside?
You would be surprised to find out there are a lot of filters that come out of the same mfg. plant, same with batteries.
Again, to be sure what the deal is, buy your filter number in four or five brands you have in your region and cut them open just like the Texas Prelude posse.
I use Mighty, AC delco, MOtorcraft, or purolator myself.
At work we use primarily Mighty, which has been a good filter most of the time. Anyway the point here I want to make is you can have some filters in the same line and one will have a good check valve and the other one won't so if you do a test buy the filter for the same vehicle across brands.

[dddon]

hello from a newbie!!
i have spent a ton of time looking for a "better" filter / filtration.. what i found is: there are a few ..but they are pricey!! ie: amsoil and donaldson and frantz.. and a filter for trucks that uses centrifugal force to remove almost ALL particles from the oil...donaldson makes amsoil filters from what i can figure .. both are rated at nominal 15 microns using new "micro-media"...
but there is hope!! a new company that has a patented system may be selling filters in the next few months!! check out this site and voice your thoughts!! "grumpa" dddon

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=1024&relatedbookgroup=OilAnalysis&title=Hybrid+Spin-on+Filters

[MessyHonda]

napa gold filters for the win

[AccordEpicenter]

wix>*

[2oodoor]

you made a believer out of me, first time oil change on the DX I got 4 months ago. It had a fram, it was even the grip one too.. when I pulled it off NO OIL came out, I turned it up and shook it , still no oil. :wtf:
I did not see any check valve, and it was kind of loose too.

Got a microfilter from Oreilly's, has check valve and is a cool red and black.. lol

[nfs480]

Crap, and here I put a Fram filter in my car just 3 hours ago. I wish i'd seen this thread before then. I'll make sure to be wary of the Fram filters from now on and hopefully my car will be fine with the one it has in it.

[Toneloc5145]

I read about this a long time ago. My parents used to use crappy Fram filters on my car, but research led me to buy Napa Gold filters (which are Wix), so that is what I have been using for a while now.

[Civic Accord Honda]

I Only Use K&n

[2drSE-i]

you made a believer out of me, first time oil change on the DX I got 4 months ago. It had a fram, it was even the grip one too.. when I pulled it off NO OIL came out, I turned it up and shook it , still no oil. :wtf:
I did not see any check valve, and it was kind of loose too.

Got a microfilter from Oreilly's, has check valve and is a cool red and black.. lol

that is craziness...I still use fram and i have never seen anything like that! Probably the last 20 oil changes ive used Fram Filters...just cant tell the difference in anything else ive looked inside (STP, Bosch, etc)

[lostforawhile]

that is craziness...I still use fram and i have never seen anything like that! Probably the last 20 oil changes ive used Fram Filters...just cant tell the difference in anything else ive looked inside (STP, Bosch, etc)cut one open you'll see the difference big time. also the bosch stp have gone to crap now. used to be good.

[2drSE-i]

im not doubting anything you say, i just cant see a visual difference. What your saying makes a lot of sense, and all my local autozone sells is those three brands. Sounds like its time to go to Advanced or (shudders) pep boys....

[Civic Accord Honda]

order K&N from advanced thats were i get mine there pretty cool to u can install them with a socket wernch

[lostforawhile]

order K&N from advanced thats were i get mine there pretty cool to u can install them with a socket wernchone thing about the k&N cah,is it's really a race filter, it lets a lot of crap through,thats why it flows better. good for a race engine that might run 500 miles in it's life,bad for a street engine. they also have a tendency to clog, you are supposed to change them pretty often.again in a race engine thats no big deal,you would change your oil and filter after every race.

[Dr_Snooz]

Dang it! I just bought a couple Boschs from Rock Auto. Guess I'll send them back.

Thanks for the warning!

[lostforawhile]

Dang it! I just bought a couple Boschs from Rock Auto. Guess I'll send them back.

Thanks for the warning!i'm going to try the wix[nappa gold] i started a thread on this at the hamb also and they all say wix, pretty hardcore motor guys over there.

[Dr_Snooz]

That's what ticks me off. I always go to Napa. This time I didn't and this is what I get! LOL

[2oodoor]

yea and you don't need to be putting on oil filters with a socket wrench anyway, the threaded part of an oil filter along with the concave metal around it is a compression washer in and of itself , that means the tighter you make it does not mean it is sealing any better, probably worse in fact.

and the AutoZone , all they have are fram and stp, I had to drive into town to oReillys to get a decent filter on a Sunday
"Aren't those K&N oil filters like $9 a piece or something? I would not buy those the benefits do not out wiegh the extra cost really.

[2drSE-i]

k&n are all about name recognition. I just dont understand why anyone would buy a specific brand if they have no evidence of it working better.

[BITESIZE]

I'll stick with my cheap ass fram filters. I have a good air filter and I change my oil on a regular basis. It's a honda for hell sakes. Not like the engine is going to blow up anytime soon becuase of my cheapola fram filter. For god's sake we have 86-89 accords, not a freaking Ferrari. lol

[labeledsk8r]

one thing about the k&N cah,is it's really a race filter, it lets a lot of crap through,thats why it flows better. good for a race engine that might run 500 miles in it's life,bad for a street engine. they also have a tendency to clog, you are supposed to change them pretty often.again in a race engine thats no big deal,you would change your oil and filter after every race.

i did not know this.... i normaly sware by there filters.... do you know a site that shows the filtration numbers of each filter?

[2oodoor]

I'll stick with my cheap ass fram filters. I have a good air filter and I change my oil on a regular basis. It's a honda for hell sakes. Not like the engine is going to blow up anytime soon becuase of my cheapola fram filter. For god's sake we have 86-89 accords, not a freaking Ferrari. lol

I hear ya, my concern is the dry starts.. that particular car (my unmodded dx) has.. or had rather a nasty rip when it starts up cold. nadda-n-e- moe
Hey, when you can pull the filter off and no oil comes out, not even shaking it out.. houston we have a problem. Other wise before the car ran fine, uses no oil, no noises other that the ^^^^
And, not meaning to sound condesending, my paid for ferrari (s) need to last me as long as it can because the bank's Ford uses more gas and needs to keep low miles until it is no longer an equity holding investment.:)

[BITESIZE]

In my 98 accord, I use the premium oil and accessories. My 88 can handle cheapo stuff. :)

[Dr_Snooz]

In my 98 accord, I use the premium oil and accessories. My 88 can handle cheapo stuff. :)

Be good to your 3gee! ;)

[Ichiban]

I refuse to use fram on my 82's EL gut-free-soon to be thrown in the garbage engine. The Autovalue store sells Wix for any application.

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, I just got my Bosch filters today and I can guarantee these have been made in China. The rubber stinks just like every tool I've ever bought from Harbor Freight. I don't know what chemicals they use to make it smell so toxic, but I assure you that EarthFirst isn't doing the happy dance about it.

So, if the Asian factories are free to use whatever they want in the rubber, what are they using for the filter media, etc.?

These are definitely going back.

[MessyHonda]

Well, I just got my Bosch filters today and I can guarantee these have been made in China. The rubber stinks just like every tool I've ever bought from Harbor Freight. I don't know what chemicals they use to make it smell so toxic, but I assure you that EarthFirst isn't doing the happy dance about it.

So, if the Asian factories are free to use whatever they want in the rubber, what are they using for the filter media, etc.?

These are definitely going back.



hahaha....just like at the flea market...the cheap tools give out horrid smells

[lostforawhile]

Well, I just got my Bosch filters today and I can guarantee these have been made in China. The rubber stinks just like every tool I've ever bought from Harbor Freight. I don't know what chemicals they use to make it smell so toxic, but I assure you that EarthFirst isn't doing the happy dance about it.

So, if the Asian factories are free to use whatever they want in the rubber, what are they using for the filter media, etc.?

These are definitely going back.i know they used to be the best now they are crap,read the very first post of this thread. entire topic of this thread. i'm going to go by what the motor guys over at the hamb say and use the wix, they are serious engine guys and i will trust their judgement especially since they all seem to agree on it.

[lostforawhile]

heres the very first quote of this thread bumped back to the top

What Not To Use: Bosch, STP, and Wal-Mart Supertech
While both the STP and the Bosch filters were at one point good filters, they are now manufactured off shore of sub-standard parts. The filter assemblies tended not to have even pleats and generally less media than other comparable filters. There was also a complete lack of a well functioning by-pass valve. With most filters there is an obvious and discrete by-pass valve, but with these filters the can spring and the by-pass valve are the same. The real issue is that in order for the filter to properly by-pass the entire filter assembly would have to move down during use. That is actually not possible with filter assembly properly seating into the anti-drain back valve. This means that the by-pass will effectively never work. In the center of the of picture below you see the filter assembly (top) and the can spring/by-pass valve (bottom). (The can spring / by-pass valve would flip over and into the filter assembly.)

[Civic Accord Honda]

one thing about the k&N cah,is it's really a race filter, it lets a lot of crap through,thats why it flows better. good for a race engine that might run 500 miles in it's life,bad for a street engine. they also have a tendency to clog, you are supposed to change them pretty often.again in a race engine thats no big deal,you would change your oil and filter after every race.
my engine is a race engine it can top out at 80mph :wave:

[AccordB20A]

lol!!

i use a ryco filter in my b20. thats just what the parts place sells. never had a problem with them. at $12 a pop its all good

[w261w261]

I just changed my oil today and used the last of my supply of Bosch filters, bought probably a year ago. It was made in the USA. I wonder if they switched the whole production to China or just have some of them made there? I'll check at Autozone next week.

If they moved the manufacturing to China it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't any good. Bosch has a pretty good reputation to uphold, and China is capable of making precision stuff. I would say that the quality control heat is on them now, because of all the problems. I'm going to fish the box out of the trash and keep it, I'll compare it to the Chinese ones if that's what's in the stores. Hopefully the design was unchanged.

I also wonder just how much effect the filter has anyway. These engines have been running for hundreds of thousands of miles routinely, and I figure a good number of them have done it on Frams. I'm not a Fram guy myself, but I do have a hunch that the whole oil/filter thing has a fair quotient of romanticism and mysticism. I'm almost sure that with my style of driving that my changing the oil at 3k religiously is more to make myself feel better than anything else. Almost sure.....but not *completely* sure, so 3k it is. And anyway, why drive a 3g? To feel good! Amen.

[lostforawhile]

I just changed my oil today and used the last of my supply of Bosch filters, bought probably a year ago. It was made in the USA. I wonder if they switched the whole production to China or just have some of them made there? I'll check at Autozone next week.

If they moved the manufacturing to China it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't any good. Bosch has a pretty good reputation to uphold, and China is capable of making precision stuff. I would say that the quality control heat is on them now, because of all the problems. I'm going to fish the box out of the trash and keep it, I'll compare it to the Chinese ones if that's what's in the stores. Hopefully the design was unchanged.

I also wonder just how much effect the filter has anyway. These engines have been running for hundreds of thousands of miles routinely, and I figure a good number of them have done it on Frams. I'm not a Fram guy myself, but I do have a hunch that the whole oil/filter thing has a fair quotient of romanticism and mysticism. I'm almost sure that with my style of driving that my changing the oil at 3k religiously is more to make myself feel better than anything else. Almost sure.....but not *completely* sure, so 3k it is. And anyway, why drive a 3g? To feel good! Amen.
na they made them cheap that guy at ntpog cut the new ones open,and they are crap,they don't even have a proper bypass anymore, the entire design changed internally. he said they are made off shore which means china.

[lostforawhile]

all filters look the same on the ouside, the opinions on the bosch being changed are from cutting one open and actually looking at it. if you want to stick with one brand,i say buy a filter cutter tool,cut one of them open and look at it. also every oil change, drain your filter,cut it open,and unroll the filter media to look for metal. anybody with a car 20 years old should be doing this. it's easy. and could save your engine.

[Civic Accord Honda]

I'll stick with my cheap ass fram filters. I have a good air filter and I change my oil on a regular basis. It's a honda for hell sakes. Not like the engine is going to blow up anytime soon becuase of my cheapola fram filter. For god's sake we have 86-89 accords, not a freaking Ferrari. lol
i agree with this also

[lostforawhile]

i agree with this alsoso you don't give a shit about your engine because it's an 89? thats a good attitude.

[Civic Accord Honda]

lol im just saying that ppl have used cheap filters on them for years and they still run.... and if anything were to happen the engines are cheap as fuck lol
like my rents ran fram in all there cars even in there 97 accord they got new they ran it 200K miles only useing fram lol
i wont use fram on my 3gee cuz im rough on the car and dont drive it avrage (IE: rev the fuck out of the engine and here rev limiter alot)

[lostforawhile]

there is a difference between an engine that just runs and one that runs well. you don't really give a shit yours runs like crap anyway because it's been abused so bad. you are just learning about engines i have seen the damage that fram can do. i would never put one of those pieces of shit on my engine. the entire point of this thread was a warning that the decent filters had gone cheapo and a lot of people don't know that they have,. if you understood anything about engines you would see the damage that a non functioning bypass design,as in whats in the bosch/stp now,can do to an engine. put whatever cheap garbage you want in your engine, i know better. hope your engine likes to eat cardboard. i mean it doesn't matter much,yours smokes and knocks rattles and everything else,and pisses out the tailpipe,probably from all those times it had no oil so as far as it the point is moot. but like you say the engines are cheap.

[Civic Accord Honda]

i only put K&N on mine :P and yes cheap filter are fine for beaters and just to get around town cars lol isent that what most ppl use there 3gees for anyway? mine is only a DD cuz i dont have another car lol and i only use filter i know are good on my car i care about my car hence why i use good filter but i see alot of 3gees out there that look worse then mine so i know alot of ppl out there dont care about there cars so they can go ahead and use fram or walmart brand or w/e they want lol

[lostforawhile]

i only put K&N on mine :P and yes cheap filter are fine for beaters and just to get around town cars lol isent that what most ppl use there 3gees for anyway? mine is only a DD cuz i dont have another car lol and i only use filter i know are good on my car i care about my car hence why i use good filter but i see alot of 3gees out there that look worse then mine so i know alot of ppl out there dont care about there cars so they can go ahead and use fram or walmart brand or w/e they want lol if you really cared you wouldn't do this crap,this does more damage then any oil filter
wont use fram on my 3gee cuz im rough on the car and dont drive it avrage (IE: rev the fuck out of the engine and here rev limiter alot)

[Civic Accord Honda]

lol its a honda it can handel that... now if i did that with a fram filter it would probley fall apart fast and clog my engine lol thats why i use a good filter thats ment for high rpms

[SZfiftyfour]

Lost, what about Mobil 1, hear anything about em? Thats what i use most of the time.

IMO Bosch has always been crap. I boycotted them after a platinum plug lost its insulator while the motor was running. After playing pong and beating the sh*t out of the cylinder/piston for a bit, it stuck the exhaust valve open:Owned:. I know.... isolated event, but why chance it, i keep the plug in my tool box to remind me.
Really though, I should have made bosch replace my motor.

[Civic Accord Honda]

yeah i highy dislike bosch only thing they make good is there 02 sensors tbh

[lostforawhile]

Lost, what about Mobil 1, hear anything about em? Thats what i use most of the time.

IMO Bosch has always been crap. I boycotted them after a platinum plug lost its insulator while the motor was running. After playing pong and beating the sh*t out of the cylinder/piston for a bit, it stuck the exhaust valve open:Owned:. I know.... isolated event, but why chance it, i keep the plug in my tool box to remind me.
Really though, I should have made bosch replace my motor.well they used to make really good oil filters,then they switched to an overseas factory and didn't tell anyone when they went to crap. forrest has one from about 2 years ago,going to try to get him to send it to me so i can cut it open and comapre to them now.

[w261w261]

<i say buy a filter cutter tool>

Anyone have a recommendation for a particular one?

[w261w261]

well they used to make really good oil filters,then they switched to an overseas factory and didn't tell anyone when they went to crap. forrest has one from about 2 years ago,going to try to get him to send it to me so i can cut it open and comapre to them now.

I dug my just-replaced USA Bosch filter out of the trash can this morning, along with the box from the replacement, which was USA also, and has a cutaway picture on it. If you want them, send me your address and I'll mail em off.

Hal

[conozo]

if you run a filter with a non functioning bypass on it what will it specifically do to your engine.

[forrest89sei]

if you run a filter with a non functioning bypass on it what will it specifically do to your engine.

Well If the filter were to clog it wouldn't supply the motor oil, thats what happens
also I think a bad bypass valve can cause dry starts which isnt good for the motor either

[conozo]

Well If the filter were to clog it wouldn't supply the motor oil, thats what happens
also I think a bad bypass valve can cause dry starts which isnt good for the motor either

That would explain the need for my motor to be rebuilt. My car has been family owned and when my dad/me have done most of the oil changes. He always got a fram filter (i didnt know any better i was only 4 and older) But when i got the car a couple years ago i put a few fram oil filters on and after that whenever i do a cold start the oil light would stay on for a second or two untill the oil would circulate. It wouldnt do it for all the fram filters but if it did it once on a filter it always did it on that filter untill i replaced it. I also just put a fram filter on our minivan and its doing the same thing at startups.

now i know, im going to change the vans before it hurts it and i wont be using fram anymore.
Thanks for the update

[Dr_Snooz]

I boycotted them after a platinum plug lost its insulator while the motor was running. After playing pong and beating the sh*t out of the cylinder/piston for a bit, it stuck the exhaust valve open:Owned:. I know.... isolated event, but why chance it, i keep the plug in my tool box to remind me.

Oh no. Not my Bosch Platinums too!!! Lousy frickin' Germans. I swear to God, after my BMW, I'll never own anything German again!