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View Full Version : B20A Rebuild Questions 200hp?



3GCVC
05-26-2008, 02:00 AM
Im planning to rebuild a B20 soon not sure on a few things hopefully someone knows something.

I have some B16 pistons i want to use i know they dont fit the stock rods but i have heard they fit H23 rods and the H23 rods fit the crank can anyone confirm this? do F22 or F23 rods do the same job? what bearings do you use H23 ones or stock B20 ones.

Also wondering about bearings in general is a B20A5 block identical to a B20A block and can i use its Main's Thrust and rod bearings in the B20A without problem? i do know the B20A5 is very similar but whether or not it will work or not im not 100% sure.

Im aiming for 200hp not sure how easy that will be to hit. with the b16 pistons it will be around 10.5:1 CR wise probably do some light head work and i have some F20 stage 2 regrind camshafts which i will see if they will fit. planning on adjustable cam gears and a B16A2 intake with a bigger throttle body, will this be enough to get somewhere near 200hp at the flywheel or will it need some more serious modifications.


Any help appreciated on this topic

thegreatdane
05-26-2008, 12:14 PM
phew...

B20A goldtop: 20mm wristpin
B20A blacktop: 22mm wristpin
3rd gen prelude B20A(5/7/9): 22mm wristpin (same rods as B20A blacktop)
H23/F22 rods: 22mm wristpin -rods fit B20A engines!

It dont matter from which engine you take the bearings, what matters is that you get the correct bearing clearances! IMPORTANT

Also the B20A and 3rd gen prelude B20A(5/7/9) engines use the same crankshaft. So you can use either bearings.

B16 pistons use 21 mm wristpins. SO pistons dont fit unless you bore the wristpin up to 22mm.

I think you would really have to perfect everything to get 200hp with only 10.5:1 c/r.

F20 cams? As in S2000 F20C cams? Those are vtec cams and dont fit.
Or are there any non vtec F20 dohc engines?

I dont think you will see 200hp with the setup you have planned and with those frankenstein parts.

TWOLOUDNPROUD
05-26-2008, 05:41 PM
Go here they have the pistons rods and bearing and rings you need for your B20a.
http://www.raceeng.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=7909&size=large
http://www.raceeng.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=7182&size=medium
http://www.raceeng.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=5089&size=large


GO HERE>http://www.raceeng.com/p-7909-honda-b20a5815mm91-for-xc-pkg.aspx

3GCVC
05-26-2008, 10:29 PM
phew...

B20A goldtop: 20mm wristpin
B20A blacktop: 22mm wristpin
3rd gen prelude B20A(5/7/9): 22mm wristpin (same rods as B20A blacktop)
H23/F22 rods: 22mm wristpin -rods fit B20A engines!

It dont matter from which engine you take the bearings, what matters is that you get the correct bearing clearances! IMPORTANT

Also the B20A and 3rd gen prelude B20A(5/7/9) engines use the same crankshaft. So you can use either bearings.

B16 pistons use 21 mm wristpins. SO pistons dont fit unless you bore the wristpin up to 22mm.

I think you would really have to perfect everything to get 200hp with only 10.5:1 c/r.

F20 cams? As in S2000 F20C cams? Those are vtec cams and dont fit.
Or are there any non vtec F20 dohc engines?

I dont think you will see 200hp with the setup you have planned and with those frankenstein parts.

ok thanks for these details,

they are 4G accord F20A cams which is basically the same as a B20A5 so i assume they might fit in there.

so my B16 pistons need to have the wristpins bored out to 22mm to go onto the H23 rods.

is it ok to mill the block and head for more compression or is the usual practice just to use higher compression pistons?


Go here they have the pistons rods and bearing and rings you need for your B20a.
http://www.raceeng.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=7909&size=large
http://www.raceeng.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=7182&size=medium
http://www.raceeng.com/wolthuis.aspx?productid=5089&size=large


GO HERE>http://www.raceeng.com/p-7909-honda-b20a5815mm91-for-xc-pkg.aspx

thanks i will keep that in mind im not looking to spend that much YeT i was thinking about that sort of stuff for next time though i would be aiming for more if i had those goodies though.

ok with all this info im going to start getting some parts here to get this done

Hauntd ca3
05-26-2008, 10:39 PM
i dont think 200hp would be to hard as long as you use a better intake than the factory mani fold unless you are going turbo.
11:1 comp would be better, a bit of head work, decent cams and exhaust.
A18A and myself are using 20v 4age quad throtles and i'm going to use a link plus ecu and i feel that 200hp wont be far off with this setup
high 100s anyway
i think that b18c type r pistons or b16a type r pistons would give a better comp ratio and some cams of around the 280 degree duration and 10mm plus lift and quad throttles would supply enuff air and a decent set of 4-1 headers with 2.25 inch exhaust will get pretty dam close
of course the link ecu is necessary to run it all properly

3GCVC
05-26-2008, 11:02 PM
i dont think 200hp would be to hard as long as you use a better intake than the factory mani fold unless you are going turbo.
11:1 comp would be better, a bit of head work, decent cams and exhaust.
A18A and myself are using 20v 4age quad throtles and i'm going to use a link plus ecu and i feel that 200hp wont be far off with this setup
high 100s anyway
i think that b18c type r pistons or b16a type r pistons would give a better comp ratio and some cams of around the 280 degree duration and 10mm plus lift and quad throttles would supply enuff air and a decent set of 4-1 headers with 2.25 inch exhaust will get pretty dam close
of course the link ecu is necessary to run it all properly

id like to stay away from quads for now maybe if i go all out later i will set it up.

like i said the better flowing B16A2 manifold with a big throttle body. i will be designing a set of 4-1 headers for it and likely the 2.25in exhaust.

the cams are 272 duration not sure on the lift need to find the spec sheet fingers crossed they will fit in.

not going to go with a link im converting to OBD1 and will tune with Chrome so its not as though i wont be tuning every bit of power i can out of it.

i said 200hp at the flywheel so so i think it should be pretty easy to get there.

Hauntd ca3
05-27-2008, 12:26 AM
i'm not to sure how well the b16 inlet flows even with a big throttle body eh.
i know its a cheaper option but i'm of the do it once, do it right school.
the quads are cheap,flow way better than a big single will,give nice short inlet runners and reqiure minimal work to make fit from what A18A has shown in pics
its just that a decent ecu would be required to run them right
as far as the headers go, i run a set of 4-1 jobbies from auto bend in chch.
they are for the gen 3 prelude si so they fit with out to much troble
you do have to lose the air co as the no. 4 primary runs straight thru where a high pressure line is.
they collect just near the bottom of the sump so are of good length
i also run a 2.25 inch mandrel bent system with a coby res and a nearly straight thru rear muffler and from the feel of it on the seat of the pants dyno, offers very little restriction

i'm not familiar withe the obd1 and chrome set up so dont know how well they work
thats why i'm going for the link
i know it'll will accom any further mods that might take my fancy later
those cams might be a bit small for 200hp but then again i could be wrong
i'm sure someone else here has a similar set in a b20a

its just my way of thinking that you may aswell spec the motor to be stronger than what you need

AccordB20A
05-27-2008, 01:13 AM
you need to add VTEC y0

bullard123
05-27-2008, 08:24 AM
Goodluck on the build! I'll be following this thread too to increase my B20A knowledge

3GCVC
05-28-2008, 12:52 AM
i'm not to sure how well the b16 inlet flows even with a big throttle body eh.
i know its a cheaper option but i'm of the do it once, do it right school.
the quads are cheap,flow way better than a big single will,give nice short inlet runners and reqiure minimal work to make fit from what A18A has shown in pics
its just that a decent ecu would be required to run them right
as far as the headers go, i run a set of 4-1 jobbies from auto bend in chch.
they are for the gen 3 prelude si so they fit with out to much troble
you do have to lose the air co as the no. 4 primary runs straight thru where a high pressure line is.
they collect just near the bottom of the sump so are of good length
i also run a 2.25 inch mandrel bent system with a coby res and a nearly straight thru rear muffler and from the feel of it on the seat of the pants dyno, offers very little restriction

i'm not familiar withe the obd1 and chrome set up so dont know how well they work
thats why i'm going for the link
i know it'll will accom any further mods that might take my fancy later
those cams might be a bit small for 200hp but then again i could be wrong
i'm sure someone else here has a similar set in a b20a

its just my way of thinking that you may aswell spec the motor to be stronger than what you need

im planning on doing it right just not spending too much on it this time round i have never done a full rebuild before so i would like to keep it reasonbly simple this time round and go full out later when/ if im needing more power il think about full race cams big valve conversion forged internals and ITBs

Got Bearings, and Pistons sorted just need rods now. and the other usual stuff for a rebuild.

Hauntd ca3
05-28-2008, 01:05 AM
you need to add VTEC y0

who wants vtec on a toy?
not me any way
a b20a with big lumpy cams sounds better to me
lets everyone know you mean business

but any hoo
if you build the bottom end good and strong and dont trash it, you could develop a better head and swap it over when you have the time and money while still being able to drive it or just do like me
i cant afford to do it all at once so i'm getting anutha b20a to build up over the next year or so and just swap it all over when its done

3GCVC
06-01-2008, 02:44 AM
allright should have Rods on the way soon.

going to have a try to see weather DOHC F20A OBD1 Dizzy will fit and weather the ECU will run the car for now until i can get an ecu chipped.

Now i understand that H23 camgears fit onto the b20a if you use a B20A5 lower cambelt gear. i also believe that H23 cam gears are the same as B series ones.

do i need to run a b20a5 water pump if i convert to h23 adjustable camgears the b20a5 lower timing belt gear and timing belt or are the water pumps the same? just trying to figure out what i need to run adjustable cam gears.

3GCVC
06-01-2008, 02:45 AM
damn you double post how do i delete this?

rjudgey
06-01-2008, 09:47 AM
F22 cam gears fit on with very minimal machining the gears are exact same size it's just the middle bit that fits onto the cam sticks out a little too far so the belt doesn't fit dead on the centre of the pulley so i put mine on a lathe and machine a tiny bit off now they fit perfectly on the pulley.

As far as building B20A goes i'm in process of starting 2 builds one for turbo and the other for full on race N/A the turbo one is for a 2G lude member i'm friends with in the U.K. the full on N/A one is for me and one of my ludes :o)

The Turbo we've gone with Eagle 4340 steel billet crank
Crower turbo/super charged spec rods for H23/F22 (22mm pin)
Wiseco Forged Pistons 9:1 CR ratio 81.5mm Bore (22mm Pin)
Si Valves stainless steel swirl polished oversized with radius race valve seats and head sizes are 30mm exhaust and 33mm, inlet all valves are for B20A5
Bronze Guides from supertech for B18/H23 (should fit checking the dimensions on them to make sure but seem right on paper)
Crower titanium retainer set and valve springs
Cat Cams B20A/B18A cams with 256 degrees duration and 10.5mm lift
Headwork will be done by non other than myself and i have some very very devilish ideas to seriously increase air flow in and out the B20A head which quite frankly is quite restrictive compared to a A20A head only thing that makes the B20A better is that it has extra exhaust valve and bigger inlet valves but as my A20 heads have much bigger valves now it actually flows much better than B20A head. But obviously this won't be the case when i've finihed with the B20A head.
Goal with this engine is reliable turbo power for some serious boost will be custom making a turbo manifold for this at a later stage once ECU and everything has been sorted out will be going completely aftermarket with crank fired ignition etc.

For the N/A build i'm going Eagle 4340 steel billet crank again but will be lightened and knife edged
Crower rods but N/A spec which are over 100grams lighter each rod
Wiseco pistons but with Flat crown and 82mm bore diameter with some block decking and head skimming hoping for a CR ratio of about 11:1 or maybe just under depends howmuch i have to machine out the chambers to make them flow nicely
SI valves 33mm inlets machined down to 30mm for the exhaust valves from B20A5
Supertech 35mm inlet valves with 1mm oversize from H23 to be used as inlet valves on B20A
Supertech bronze valve guides again for B18/H23
Crower Titanium retainer set and uprated springs for B18/H23
Cat Cams/Crower B18/B20 cams with 278 degrees duration and 11mm lift
Some serious serious headwork on this one with some 5 angle race seats with radius edges on all angles, some really sweet port mods to eliinate the obstruction casued by the valve guide and the ramp, as well as welding on the inlet ports to eilminate the injector ports and the fitting and matching of a custom stainless steel very long runners inlet manifold for either Weber 45's or ITB's with 45mm bore.
Idea of this engine is for Light as possible bottom end for more power and responsivness as well as being able to handle revving reliably to 8-9k rpm, the head will have very high flow potential combined with upped CR ratio.
PLanning on running with webers first with stock ignition system hopiing to start with around 230-240bhp maybe more but not sure with the webers if i switch to ITB's should be able to get 250-260bhp

As for your B16 pistons with H23 rods don't machine the pistons too risky better option is to have the rods re-bushed to the B16 piston size that way you won't have to buy new pins as well and the pistons won't be tampered with.

And yes you should be dekcing the block and skimming the head anyways to make sure it is flat so might as well take a little extra off to increase CR ratio more just don't go too mad take .25mm off the deck and .75mm off the head max off the head would be 1,5mm but you should keep some material left in reserve for any head gasket failures, bent valves, or any other reasons to take head off cause if you have nothing left to take off to make flat again your fooked and the head is then scrap.

I agree with the other guys spend money on the block as the head can be done later and made better in stages.

I would start with the best bottom end you can get maybe have the stock crank lightened and knife edged, then get the crower H23 lightweight rods this will relieven stress on the stock crank as well, then get a set of stainless valves and have them cut to racing spec seats etc.mild cams bit of port work to clean things up and help flow past the valve guides matcdh the manifolds sort out the intake system yougojng to use, polishign the inlet manifold will help adn mods to the stock TB as well, then spend money on header and mandrel bent exhaust system.

Get a spare head then have the bronze guides fitted, oversized stainless valves, titanium retainers, valve springs, some serious headwork, some wilder cams and then switch to ITB's maybe or at least the best inlet manifold you can get with a seriously large TB and custom ECU and ignition system.

So just to double check does anyone know if the Crower B18 cams will fit B20A don't need cam sensor as will be running Webers or Aftermarket ECU if all it needs is light mods to fit dizzy i can go with that the Cat cams ones fit as i had the dealer send my cams off and they checked them against there own pattern and were the same and as they are suppose to be for B18A as well i presiming the crower ones should be good too?? anyone tried them?? the price of them is extremely good Cat cams are $800 a pair the crower and less than half that!!!!

bullard123
06-01-2008, 12:00 PM
allright should have Rods on the way soon.

going to have a try to see weather DOHC F20A OBD1 Dizzy will fit and weather the ECU will run the car for now until i can get an ecu chipped.

Now i understand that H23 camgears fit onto the b20a if you use a B20A5 lower cambelt gear. i also believe that H23 cam gears are the same as B series ones.

do i need to run a b20a5 water pump if i convert to h23 adjustable camgears the b20a5 lower timing belt gear and timing belt or are the water pumps the same? just trying to figure out what i need to run adjustable cam gears.

The water pumps are the same

3GCVC
06-04-2008, 12:49 AM
ok thanks rjudgey thats the kind of infomation im after i will keep that in mind.

thanks for the info on the waterpump.

not 100% sure if the F20A dizzy will fit or even if the F20A ecu is chippable but it should run it for a start it is a PT2 i believe

still working on everything else.

TWOLOUDNPROUD
06-04-2008, 03:53 AM
ok thanks rjudgey thats the kind of infomation im after i will keep that in mind.

thanks for the info on the waterpump.

not 100% sure if the F20A dizzy will fit or even if the F20A ecu is chippable but it should run it for a start it is a PT2 i believe

still working on everything else.

You can use the B18a/b dizzy and the cam cap off the B18a/b intake on your B20a that what i did take a look

With stock B20a cam cap with B18a/b dizzy
http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/11/web/359000-359999/359877_293_full.jpg
with B18a/b cam cap on B20a with B18a/b dizzy
http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/11/web/359000-359999/359877_274_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/11/web/359000-359999/359877_320_full.jpg

thegreatdane
06-05-2008, 01:44 PM
So just to double check does anyone know if the Crower B18 cams will fit B20A don't need cam sensor as will be running Webers or Aftermarket ECU if all it needs is light mods to fit dizzy i can go with that the Cat cams ones fit as i had the dealer send my cams off and they checked them against there own pattern and were the same and as they are suppose to be for B18A as well i presiming the crower ones should be good too?? anyone tried them?? the price of them is extremely good Cat cams are $800 a pair the crower and less than half that!!!!

you already know that! at least you should :) i'm using crower b18 cams. but the cam gears will stick out an extra 5mm if you dont machine the cams those 5mm shorter. Which mine are.
Robt had crower b18 cams as well initially, but dont think he's ever ran the engine with them.

AccordB20A
06-05-2008, 02:09 PM
keep the valuable information coming haha
finding an OBD1 dissy over heres a cunt and a half of a job

RobT5580
06-05-2008, 03:07 PM
you already know that! at least you should :) i'm using crower b18 cams. but the cam gears will stick out an extra 5mm if you dont machine the cams those 5mm shorter. Which mine are.
Robt had crower b18 cams as well initially, but dont think he's ever ran the engine with them.

No i never did run them because i got nervous at the last minute after the machine shop snapped a cam on a ARP head stud that was to long. Plus they were not 100% lined up degree wise with my F22 cam gears so i sold them and ran stock ones.

I spent almost $1000 on my ferrea valve train so i didnt want to chance it but now that i had the B20A turboed i think i might do some cam work this time around but im not sure. Im slowely rebuilding it now and my funds are much tighter now that im out of college. But for now i need new pistons, turbo, manifold, and a ems to get it running plus the machine work.

Im looking to push 300-350whp and i dont think i was far from the 300 last time but it was never dynoed to prove it.

thegreatdane
06-06-2008, 08:07 AM
At least you have the valvetrain sorted out :) except from the cams of course.

when I decide to get adj. cam gears I will convert to b20a5 waterpump, crank gear and timing belt so I can use the B16 cam gears instead and get rid of the timing offset caused by the F22 gears.

TWOLOUDNPROUD
06-06-2008, 07:08 PM
At least you have the valvetrain sorted out :) except from the cams of course.

when I decide to get adj. cam gears I will convert to b20a5 waterpump, crank gear and timing belt so I can use the B16 cam gears instead and get rid of the timing offset caused by the F22 gears.

Why? the offset is not that bad with the F22 timing gears take a look

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/TwoLoudNproud/DSCN6911.jpg

RobT5580
06-07-2008, 06:15 AM
Yeah but on top of the offset i think the degrees are off as well. If i recall correctly with the cams locked with dowel pins the cam gears are not at TDC. Personally i like the F22 gears for appearence wise and have considered the B16 gears but i think i can tolerate the degrees if its minor.

I looked through some pics and it doesn't look off much but i recall with a straight edge lining up the center marks was a pain but i don't remember if i was able to get it 100% without adjusting the gears.

http://thumb4.webshots.net/t/69/469/8/74/66/2310874660084712684BGHROR_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2310874660084712684BGHROR)

http://thumb4.webshots.net/t/69/469/7/0/95/2344700950084712684OYbRVG_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2344700950084712684OYbRVG)

http://thumb4.webshots.net/t/69/469/0/96/12/2182096120084712684bIDMcP_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2182096120084712684bIDMcP)

TWOLOUDNPROUD
06-07-2008, 07:05 AM
I redid the center marks on my gears for i could get it right i used the stock gears as my marker.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/TwoLoudNproud/DSCN6956.jpg

mykwikcoupe
06-07-2008, 07:42 AM
so the exhaust is 2 degrees retarded and the intake is 2 degrees advanced or so the picture tells. Ive never read about the pro and cons with the b20a5 upgrades. Anyone care to enlighten me. I must have missed it when I was working out of town last year.

thegreatdane
06-07-2008, 08:50 AM
Why? the offset is not that bad with the F22 timing gears take a look

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/TwoLoudNproud/DSCN6911.jpg

no no I was talking about the timing offset. I'm not bothered about the belts offset.
And besides the B16 gears are smaller and lighter.

TWOLOUDNPROUD
06-07-2008, 03:26 PM
so the exhaust is 2 degrees retarded and the intake is 2 degrees advanced or so the picture tells. Ive never read about the pro and cons with the b20a5 upgrades. Anyone care to enlighten me. I must have missed it when I was working out of town last year.

with the web cams i am running i have them set at 1+in and 2- Ex and it love the power where it set at.