How do you know when to replace rear drum brake shoes?

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I have no idea when the rear drum brake shoes were last replaced or how to tell if they need to be replaced again. I bought the car back in Dec2007 and replaced the front disc brake pads in March due to squeaking...haven't had any braking issues since.

In the past 2 weeks, I have begun to notice this weird thumping-like sound when I apply the breaks while only going about 15 mph...(like in a parking lot). There's not much of a vibration/studder, but there is a discernible thumping-like-sound coming from the rear. I thought it may be some of my tools rattling in the trunk, but I've checked/secured everything and the sound persists.

Is this an indication that I need to work on the rear drum breaks?

What are some other common symptoms that the rear drum brakes need a look?

Drum break work looks fairly complex from the drawings in my Haynes Manual. Is this something a novice car mechanic should consider undertaking or should I bite the bullet and out source this work? I like the feeling of pride I get from working on my car, but don't want to do a crappy job and put my life at risk.

Thanks!

[Oldblueaccord]

Well you really need to pull off the rear wheel and the drum and look. The shoes will be very thin or down to the metal if they are bad.

Besides noise the E brake may not work(hold) like it used too.


wp

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Well you really need to pull off the rear wheel and the drum and look. The shoes will be very thin or down to the metal if they are bad.

Besides noise the E brake may not work(hold) like it used too.


wp


Ok, jacked up the back end this past Thursday and pulled off the wheels and drums.

Things I noticed...(i'll post some pics later this week)
- all parts were dry (so no leaks)
- a lot of break dust
- shoes look good...I don't have any calipers, but they looked to be half a centimeter thick (all 4 shoes) and the "wear" was pretty even.

I didn't see anything so I just sprayed them down with brake cleaner to get all the dust off.

-----------

Now the thumping still remains -- It decreases with the speed of the wheel rotating when the brakes are applied. The P-brake is as tight as it has always been. Could it be that I need to check the barrings or whatever it is called (don't have access to my manual at the moment)?

If I can't figure out the problem soon, I'll need to take it in...I dread the 80-100$/hr labor rate.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

well my initial thoughts are to examine the wheel cylinders and bearings. However, maybe I should just replace the drums? Is it possible that I have a warped drum? I always thought that the front brakes handled most of the braking load.

Realistically, I could overhaul the rear brakes...drums, spring kit, bearings, etc...but that sounds like a PITA. I don't need awesome stopping power, but I don't want to die.

[markmdz89hatch]

just thought of something. do you get any pulsation when you depress the brake pedal? If not, my first guess is your uca (upper control arm). How many miles on your car?

Please please please inspect this asap. If it's the ball-joint in the uca it would make a clunking/thumping, especially when applying brakes because the weight of the knuckle is not perfectly balanced, and when applying braking the uca becomes more of a stress point for lateral movement then just driving.

I had one of my rear uca's let go on me a couple years ago and thank god I was only going like 30. Any faster and I don't want to think about it. A member a few years ago had one let go while on the highway, and his 3G was totalled. Not trying to scare you, but these cars are not getting any newer and parts wear out. At this point, it would still just be chalked up as preventative maintenance.

edit: Forgot to tell you how to check. Ready... ...too simple. Jack up the car on that corner, and grab the upper part of the knuckle just below the uca mount and give it a tug in all directions. You should not feel any play in that joint. Also inspect the rubber boot covering the ball-joint. If it's cracked, split, torn, or caked with grease chances are it's shot.

Now if you have a few extra dollars, I would invest in the adjustable Ingalls rear uca's as it will allow for greater adjustability, and imo they're a better quality part then the replacements you'll get at AutoZone, etc.

[2oodoor]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/1199667625.jpg

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok Guy, now quit taking pics of it and replace that damn thing. Is there anything left to the ball joint's post? I don't think I've ever seen a gap like that between the boot and the seat in the knuckle.

[russiankid]

My friend has an 86' Accord. He would get this clunk sound as you described when braking. We bleed his brakes till we saw fresh fluid coming out. He had a lot of air in his brakes. After we bleed the brakes thoroughly, the issue went away. To my knowledge, the issue has not came back yet.

[2oodoor]

^^^jsonds like a backing plate issue too

[OptimusPrimeSr]

just thought of something. do you get any pulsation when you depress the brake pedal? If not, my first guess is your uca (upper control arm). How many miles on your car?

I feel the pulsation only when pressing down the brake pedal.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

My friend has an 86' Accord. He would get this clunk sound as you described when braking. We bleed his brakes till we saw fresh fluid coming out. He had a lot of air in his brakes. After we bleed the brakes thoroughly, the issue went away. To my knowledge, the issue has not came back yet.

this is something I've pondered, but I always seem to convince myself that I don't need to bleed the brakes (since it is a long and difficult 1 man job).

[OptimusPrimeSr]

^^^jsonds like a backing plate issue too

what's that?

[markmdz89hatch]

could be a missing/broken retaining clip from the shoes then, or cracked or warped drum, or spent cylinder.

I personally hate drums, and hate adjusting them even more. If I have to do a set of drum brakes for a car, i usually end up doing the job, but about 30% of the time I'll bring it to a friend that works at a brake/exhaust show and have him adjust them for me. (Yes, I hate doing it that much.)

It's not really a tough job, just tedious to replace all of the springs, clips, etc. I would suggest trying it first.

[2oodoor]

the backing plate, the thing that is behind all the shoes and hardware. The shoes slide against it, sometimes they get a groove rubbed in them and can make the shoes bind up then they pop free.
Drum could be cracked/warped too which would really make the shoes rub a groove in the plate. Pulsing felt in the pedal is no doubt a warped drum, Pulsing felt in the suspension and steering wheel is usually front rotors. Ok that said, warped rotors would be felt in the pedal eventually but would show up first in the susp/steering.

[evil88accordLX]

the backing plate, the thing that is behind all the shoes and hardware. The shoes slide against it, sometimes they get a groove rubbed in them and can make the shoes bind up then they pop free.
Drum could be cracked/warped too which would really make the shoes rub a groove in the plate. Pulsing felt in the pedal is no doubt a warped drum, Pulsing felt in the suspension and steering wheel is usually front rotors. Ok that said, warped rotors would be felt in the pedal eventually but would show up first in the susp/steering.

not to change the thread, but if you dont replace the shims on the front brake, will it cause a shuddering as well? i just changed my front pads, and there werent any shims when i took the old pads off, and after putting the new ones on, there is almost a dragging feeling when i depress the pedal.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

gonna go and replace the drums this weekend...

will be back if that doesn't work...thanks in advance

[OptimusPrimeSr]

couple more questions...

If I notice the thumping on one side, could I swap the drums to help further confirm suspicions about it being a warped drum?
- wouldn't the thumping follow the warped drum?


When replacing drums, do I need to replace both at the same time?

How much should I spend? I see prices ranging between $25-$60 per drum.

Thanks.

[markmdz89hatch]

i personally wouldn't swap the drums (side to side) because as they wear with the pads, they tend to develop a seat for one another.

As for how much to spend on drums, a major reason for some swings in price is due directly to how many times you can safely have the drums turned before the need to replace them outright.

No, you don't need to replace both drums at the same time. In the event of a faulty wheel cylinder, or premature failure of a shoe, etc, you may need to replace one, independent of the other.

However, before spending $$ on new drums, just pull them off and (using someone else's car obviously) bring them to most any brake shop or NAPA and they'll turn them for you, or tell you if they can't be turned anymore or if you have a cracked one.

If you're going through all that trouble, be sure to replace the shoes if needed, or if there is uneven wear (either one shoe worn more then the other, or uneven wear on the pair from top to bottom). A likely culprit for uneven wear is a bad adjuster or spring. Maybe it's because I'm anal about it, but I always buy a full spring kit, and if the adjuster even thinks of giving me grief I replace that too. (don't forget some never-seize on between the pieces of the adjuster too).

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Excellent. I'll check on having them turned this weekend. Thanks!

[OptimusPrimeSr]

ok...had the drums turned yesterday afternoon -- $7.50 each at meineke.

I put them back on as soon as I got home and took a test drive in the neighborhood. UGH!!! still hearing and feeling the thumping in the brake pedal.

Later last night, I drove to the store...took the highway...and when I got back to the house, I noticed that I didn't hear the thumping when pulling into my spot. That's odd. I took the car back out and drove around the neighborhood and the thumping seems to have subsided.

This morning, I drove to work and the thumping was all but gone.

Is it possible that I just needed to "break in" my freshly turned drums? Cause that would rock!

[markmdz89hatch]

it's possible. ...but when you took the drums off, did you inspect the shoes for uneven wear, cracks in the braking surface, functioning adjuster, all properly installed springs, and holding clips? If the thumping stopped, I would guess that yes they did need to settle in, but when you reinstalled the drums, did you adjust the brakes? My guess is the adjuster is bad.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

it's possible. ...but when you took the drums off, did you inspect the shoes for uneven wear, cracks in the braking surface, functioning adjuster, all properly installed springs, and holding clips? If the thumping stopped, I would guess that yes they did need to settle in, but when you reinstalled the drums, did you adjust the brakes? My guess is the adjuster is bad.

no. I'm not sure how to check these. The Haynes manual doesn't really state how to check them...it just says to check them.

thumping has not fully gone away...I'm now thinking that you are right and the adjuster or springs are bad. The money isn't that big of a deal, so I think I'm going to replace all that stuff tomorrow. Also, after reading that story above, and thinking about it, I'm strongly considering getting the bushings done on all four corners. Anyone have a link to a good set (doesn't need to be performance...this is a DD)? I have a dependable mechanic...and if he can give me a decent quote on having that done, I'll probably let him since I'm not interested in undertaking that amount of work. This car has 160k on the body...but only about 8k on the block and head...needless to say its going to be my ride for a while and I'd hate to total it if one of my corners give way.

thanks for all the help so far!:thumbup:

[OptimusPrimeSr]

ok I just finished manually adjusting the rear brakes. First I adjusted the brakes by turning the "sprocket-looking-wheel" to expand the shoes until I could barely fit the drum back on. Next I pulled the ebrake 1 click and tightened it. At this point, the wheels no longer would spin endlessly and it felt like both shoes were making contact and rubbing the wheels to a stop after 2 spins or so.

now questions...
- there was a little metal clip-looking thing that looked like it should sit wedged between two of the nubs on the "sprocket-looking-wheel". If this is not positioned (or falls out of position) between the nubs, will the shoes start to move out of adjustment? If so I'm guessing I'll need to replace those...since I pretty much had to push them up against the "sprocket-looking-wheel".

other than that, the test drive afterwards was nice. ebrake holds at 3 clicks, and braking feels nice and tight. Hopefully this will hold up...otherwise I'll be back.

[Oldblueaccord]

Techniacally yes that clip holds holds the adjusters from turning the wrong way. But in my experience they dont do squat.

How do you like that brake pedal feel now ? :D


wp

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Techniacally yes that clip holds holds the adjusters from turning the wrong way. But in my experience they dont do squat.

How do you like that brake pedal feel now ? :D

wp

It feels safer and I can certainly tell that the rear brakes are taking on much more of the load than before. ty

[BITESIZE]

When I want to check the rear drum brakes, I will put the car in reverse and slam on the brakes, and do this about 2 or 3 times. Then I will drive down the road and pull the ebrake slowly while going about 25 mph. If the car slows down without making noise, you are golden.



Just pull the wheel and drum and look at the drum and shoes. You will get an idea if they need changing.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

ugh...thumping is back.

parking brake is still tight and braking in general still feels tight...I'm wondering now if I may have some glazed spots on my shoes. Gonna check that out...need to find some pictures.

[markmdz89hatch]

ok, now i feel like we're starting to chase ghosts.

Are we sure that the thumping is coming from the rear? If so, are we sure the upper control arm ball-joints are still in great shape, and the bushing at the rear of the control arm?

As long as we get a checkmark on each of those items, I would flush out the brake lines. Just make sure your master stays topped off, and just open the bleeder on all corners, one at a time, and bleed flush out at least a small bottle of brake fluid, which effectively flushes out the whole system. (Have a friend help you out with this unless you want to spend the extra $25 and replace all four bleeders with speed-bleeders (available at basically any auto-parts store.))

After this, I would make sure that your wheel cylinder is still good. Those are peanuts, and should be in stock at damn near every auto-parts store.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Are we sure that the thumping is coming from the rear? If so, are we sure the upper control arm ball-joints are still in great shape, and the bushing at the rear of the control arm?
Yes, definitely coming from the back. The joints and bushings look 20years old, but there is no noticeable movement (i yanked the crap out of both sides while the wheels were off).


As long as we get a checkmark on each of those items, I would flush out the brake lines. Just make sure your master stays topped off, and just open the bleeder on all corners, one at a time, and bleed flush out at least a small bottle of brake fluid, which effectively flushes out the whole system. (Have a friend help you out with this unless you want to spend the extra $25 and replace all four bleeders with speed-bleeders (available at basically any auto-parts store.))

After this, I would make sure that your wheel cylinder is still good. Those are peanuts, and should be in stock at damn near every auto-parts store.

bleed and then wheel cylinder. I can probably knock both of those out this weekend. I'll also take some close ups of the shoes and post them up here.

thanks!

[OptimusPrimeSr]

ok...lol...what a day.

I got everything ready to bleed my rear brakes...
- had the rear end on jack stands
- had the rear wheel removed
- had my bleeder tube and bottle ready to roll
- had my 8mm wrench on the bleeder bolt
- had my fiancee in the drivers seat
- had the drum off the rear passenger wheel
- WAIT WHAT!?!?!

yeah...for some fucking reason I had the drum off the rear passenger wheel. So my lady starts pumping and I am letting it flow on the drivers side rear wheel...then I hear a thunk on the rear passenger side wheel. When I walked over, the wheel cylinder was extended all the way out on one side. FUCK. I was pissed...I didn't have much time today and was planning on being in and out within an hour. So I'm investigating the wheel cylinder and I try loosening the bolts on the back to get some wiggle room (at this point I'm still not sure if this cylinder is salvageable). Well on of the bolts snaps off with the nut and that makes the decision of whether or not to replace the cylinders real EZ!


So anyways, long story short, I replaced the wheel cylinders on both sides and bled the brakes. Just got back from my test drive and so far so good. going to take it out for a little longer later tonight and make sure all is well.

argh.

if the thumping persists, I'm going to scrap it all and replaced the shoes and springs...and if that doesn't work I'm going to set the car on fire and roll it down the hill into a lake of loud children in restaurants.

[Oldblueaccord]

I would still look at the rear upper link. If its non-greaseable it only last about 2-3 years before it developes play in the joint. Grabing the wheel at the 12 and 6 o clock posistion you should be able to wiggle the tire and see the joint move.

As far as popping the wheel cylinders well it happens to the best of us.


http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65015


wp

[markmdz89hatch]

like wp says, the wheel cylinder woes happens to us all, and I'm a member of this club too.

Don't fret if you get a thunking still because if you were driving on a bad wheel cyl, there's a chance that the drum is out of round already. ...and the shoe faces may have cracked, but doubtfully.

As for the upper ball joint, i'm with wp on that too. Especially if the wheel cyl is bad, and was cause of the clunk, then I would definitely say the ball-joint hath shittith the bed.

[2oodoor]

wow I never heard that expression before now Ive read it twice in one day, I hope I dont get hooked on it, sht the bed? :rolleyes:

anyway, I used an angle drill and very very very carefully drilled into the top cap of the rear ball joints and installed zert fittings to greez em up. The carefull part is not getting drill shavings inside the joint, and not drilling too far. This will tigheten them up some and clear out some noise, still if there is too much wiggle in them by all means replace them.

Is the strut on that side in good condition? A weak strut will dive when the brake is applied, sometimes this could make the suspension contact the exhaust if it is close anyway. You've been dealing with this long enough I hope you already distinguished if it is an action and not a reaction of the brake on that side.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

so far so good with regards to the thumping being gone -- brakes are responsive and quiet which is a nice change. I'm still holding out for more test miles before I declare my rear braking issues solved.

Now,

I would still look at the rear upper link. If its non-greaseable it only last about 2-3 years before it developes play in the joint. Grabing the wheel at the 12 and 6 o clock posistion you should be able to wiggle the tire and see the joint move.


As for the upper ball joint, i'm with wp on that too. Especially if the wheel cyl is bad, and was cause of the clunk, then I would definitely say the ball-joint hath shittith the bed.
I'm going to have all four corners looked at by my local mechanic...I'm fairly certain a lot of that stuff needs to be replaced, but I don't have the time, knowledge, tools, etc etc to do this myself.

The upper joints on all 4 corners look like (if not worse) than this picture from wp's post.
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4093/rearlinkwithoutfittinguk0.jpg


Is the strut on that side in good condition? A weak strut will dive when the brake is applied, sometimes this could make the suspension contact the exhaust if it is close anyway. You've been dealing with this long enough I hope you already distinguished if it is an action and not a reaction of the brake on that side.
Well I'm fairly certain this is a case of action and not reaction to the braking. My only real evidence is the fact that I would hear the thumping when braking from super slow speeds which (in my mind) would eliminate the suspension coming into play. Is that an incorrect assumption?

Is this the strut (part #3 -- S/ABS UNIT, RR) ?
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13SE00_B3001.gif

[markmdz89hatch]

yes, the strut (also called damper, shock, etc) is #3.

As for the pic you posted, is that what your rear upper control arm looks like? If so, sell it to me because I want an adjustable one. (that's an aftermarket adjustable upper)

...but either way, that boot looks pretty well shot. You can see where the boot folds and looks like it's splitting at the fold too. If yours has split, even if there's grease still in there, it won't be for too much longer, and either way it's now contaminated with sand, etc so that'll only help cause the thing to fail even faster.

They're fairly inexpensive to buy new ball-joints, or even a replacement arm, and definitely worth the expense if it avoids failure of it while driving.

[Oldblueaccord]

You could do the rear your self. Its those 2 bolts to the body the nut on the end of the joint and either a pickle fork or a well placed blow on the arm (not the link) with a good sized hammer and its apart. Way easier then a rear brake job.

Write up on the adjustable links!


http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48440

Link to the vendor I use there alot out there

http://www.livermoreperformance.com/acura_honda_alignment.html#Ingalls

paint them or get them powerdercoated they rust quick.


wp

[markmdz89hatch]

for removal, the only thing I'll use anymore is a pitman arm puller, or a ball-joint separator.

The damn fork has trashed way too many boots for me, so I'm not a fan of it. Not to mention the fact that with either tool above, there's no need to swing a hammer. I've whacked too many a fender accidentally from aggravation with the damn hammer too.

http://www.autozone.com/in_our_stores/loan_a_tool/pullers_specialized/pitman_arm.htm

http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/TA-61900.html

[Oldblueaccord]

Yeah good point pickle forks will trash the boot but hes putting on a new so there the quickest and most fool proof way to take it apart.


wp

[OptimusPrimeSr]

quick update: I'm considering this brake issue resolved. I really appreciate everyone's help/advice/input.

[markmdz89hatch]

good to hear that everything appears to be running well on your car now.

Don't get discouraged when working on these cars. They're not new anymore, and usually fixing one thing will lead to bringing 95 other problems to light, of which will just need to be addressed accordingly.

Bottom line, despite any minor maintenance issues associated with these cars, they're great dependable cars that have damn near bulletproof motors.

Word to the wise on the tranny's (although it may or may not pertain to you), the auto's basically have a self-destruct expiration of 200K.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

good to hear that everything appears to be running well on your car now.

Don't get discouraged when working on these cars. They're not new anymore, and usually fixing one thing will lead to bringing 95 other problems to light, of which will just need to be addressed accordingly.

Bottom line, despite any minor maintenance issues associated with these cars, they're great dependable cars that have damn near bulletproof motors.

Word to the wise on the tranny's (although it may or may not pertain to you), the auto's basically have a self-destruct expiration of 200K.

yeah, I love my 3g and baby it on the road. it is very dependable and i take pride driving a 21 yr old car that gets better gas mileage than 80% of vehicles on the road. also, I could never imagine having a car payment...blahhhh...those are for the uninformed.

re: tranny problems...
yeah, that seemed to be the case with the CB7s as well. Had a 91 ex auto that was totaled (dec2007) around 225k miles when some cellphone-talking-ahole ran me off the road. I was just beginning to have tranny problems and thought that I may have solved it with an updated TCU...unfortunately I'll never know. Luckily, my 3g is a manual :rockon: