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Bass Man
06-03-2008, 10:57 PM
I thought I saw someone's build with a custom tubed-runner intake manifold, but I can't seem to find it.

What I can and want to do, is replace my stock carb intake with a custom made tube-runner intake. I can fab it fairly easily, but I just need to know if it would be with the trouble.

What I was thinking about doing is getting a couple pieces of 1 1/2" exhaust tube, have 2 of them bent (for 1 and 4) and just fab up a "box" where the carb would sit on top of, and all 4 runners would be connected.

I would either block off the coolant ports or run them together, but they wouldn't be part of the manifold. I could either build it to fit my stock A1 carb, or maybe find a 32-3# weber in the junkyard and work around it. Comments?? Can anyone find the pic of the guy with the tube runners?? I'ver been searching for 2 hours and couldn't find anything.

2oodoor
06-04-2008, 03:47 AM
waste of time, you would be better off just using the stock intake and cutting out the separator under the carb. The one I have I could look into any hole in it and see out the other side no problem.
now if you want to build an intake like that, build it for dual sidedraft or even downdraft webers or either motorcycle carbs.
http://www.redpepperracing.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38290
photo credit to preludepower
http://www.freewebs.com/flalude/Prelude%20GSXR%20Carb%20005.jpg

cygnus x-1
06-04-2008, 07:23 AM
So you're talking about a 4-1 design instead of the 4-2-1 stock design? I think some of the older carbed Civics were like this. But they wouldn't be compatible due to the completely different port spacing. It would not be trivial to get the flow distribution right though.

Honestly though the manifold is not the problem, it's the carb. The stock carb is just wheezy. Everyone that does the conversion immediately notices the difference. A tuned runner setup with a Weber might get you somewhere but I agree with Roo. By the time you get to that point you may as well just go for bike carbs or DCOEs. That bike carb setup has some definite potential since bike carbs are cheap and plentiful.

C|

Bass Man
06-04-2008, 04:13 PM
Well, my dad just said he can get some carbs for $30-40, and he runs one of them on his 1400cc Shovelhead.

If I got something like a 40-50mm, would I need 2 or 4?

lostforawhile
06-04-2008, 04:20 PM
you can look on ebay all the time and find four carb mikuni setups for bikes, they have all the linkages and everything already with them. the best way to make a manifold,is to take a stock one, cut it off at the flange, then weld your four tubes to it. remember to get the proper angle, the engine is tilted forward quite a bit, if you welded pipes straight to it,they would want to stick out the hood. i can't remember the angle off the top of my head at the moment. i know when i milled the manifold part for my SUs ,i had to put quite a bit of angle on it. the only thjing you wouid probably need to do to those bike carbs is maby modify the linkages a bit,depending on how far apart they are spaced. also remember you need a balance tube between all the carbs.

lostforawhile
06-04-2008, 04:29 PM
we have a guy on here who works in a cnc machine shop, if you got a set of carbs i'm sure you could send him a gasket for them,and he could make you four mounting flanges to go on the carb ends, it's crucial is the person,pm him and ask what he would charge and if he could do it for you.

Bass Man
06-04-2008, 04:32 PM
Cool! Thanks lost.

It's at a 15* Angle.

cubert
06-04-2008, 05:02 PM
like lost said and i posted in your other thread, the harley carbs are pretty useless for this app...find an inline 4 jap bike and grab the carbs...


and damn you roodoo for posting that picture...makes me want to take a spare set of carbs for my bike and find a rusted out honda to mess with them on :lol:

cygnus x-1
06-04-2008, 10:09 PM
I have a secret project (until now) to fit up a set of Hayabusa TBs to my A20. I have a manifold design drawn up in CAD but I haven't had it made yet. It could be made to fit carbs, but spacing will be an issue. My design requires that the TB spacing (80mm on center) be modified to the same as the Honda head ports (90mm on center). It's also a 3 piece design where you have a head plate, some tubes for the runners, and a TB plate. The 3 piece design is so you can put in different length runners without having to make an entirely new manifold. You just swap in the new runners and go. It also means that you could potentially use different TBs or carbs by changing just the TB plate, and not have to remake the entire manifold. The major issue though is that the carbs or TBs have to be modified to have a 90mm spacing.

C|

Bass Man
06-04-2008, 10:19 PM
Spacing as in fitting? such as tube to tube?

cygnus x-1
06-05-2008, 08:48 AM
Spacing as in fitting? such as tube to tube?

Yeah, the ports on the head are spaced 90mm from each other so ideally you want the carbs/TBs to have the same spacing. The other option is to have the runners curve in a little so they can match up to whatever the spacing of the carbs/TBs is. Either way will work and both have pros/cons.

C|

markmdz89hatch
06-06-2008, 06:57 AM
Can someone put a protractor on the damn head, while the car is on dead level ground and tell me the EXACT angle of the head perpendicular to the ground? I kinda can't do that since mine is immobile and no where near on level ground.

I'm working on a manifold fabrication now, and don't want to end up spending thousands of dollars on a manifold mocked up at the wrong angle.

Sorry for the urgency too, but my window of time for this info is nill. (Yeah I'm a prick, but if my plan works out and I get the exact angle, I promise there will be many more happy ppl on this board.)

::wink::

markmdz89hatch
06-06-2008, 06:59 AM
I'm curious too, what's the need for the balance tube on that setup in the pic that roo posted? As long as the runner lengths and diameters (total volume) are all identical, as well as the carb sizes and jetting, wouldn't there be no need for the balance tube? Don't you lose a hell of a lot of air velocity and proper flow into the head when you put the tube in?

2oodoor
06-06-2008, 07:06 AM
Ask FlaLude from preludepower... it's his set up and he says they are making more once it is bugged out, I wondering about that myself and thinking about a pull thru boost situation or nitrous or other auxilary fuel port, looking at the big end of that thing..:naughty:
I dont have a fancy protractor like that or I would do that measurement.

lostforawhile
06-06-2008, 12:57 PM
I'm curious too, what's the need for the balance tube on that setup in the pic that roo posted? As long as the runner lengths and diameters (total volume) are all identical, as well as the carb sizes and jetting, wouldn't there be no need for the balance tube? Don't you lose a hell of a lot of air velocity and proper flow into the head when you put the tube in?
the point is you can't get every cyl exactly the same,maby in theory you could, but all you can do is get them close. the tube is important in making the setup function right. the other reason for it,is you tap one end for your power brake booster. when you let off the throttle, the throttle plates close inducing a high vaccume under them,the balance tube is tapped right behind the carbs tapping this vaccume for the brake booster. the carbs have to have the balance tube to ensure the same mixture in all intake ports. an interesting point,is some ferraris had multiple carb setups and no balance tube,this is what led to people saying the carbs were possessed. it makes them very finicky,the mixture in one carb can go way off.
A twin carburetor of the variable-area choke type for use in multi-cylinder engine of a motor vehicle which twin carburetor includes a balance tube interconnecting a front side mixture passage and a rear side mixture passage at a point downstream of each throttle valve for balancing the pressures therein to equalize the amounts of air-fuel mixtures to be supplied to individual cylinders of the engine and an additional balance tube interconnecting the front side mixture passage and the rear side mixture passage at a point downstream of each choke for balancing the suctions or depressions acting on each air valve to provide the same effective cross-sectional area at each fuel jet for thereby producing air-fuel mixtures having equal air-fuel ratios in each mixture passage.

markmdz89hatch
06-06-2008, 02:44 PM
Tim, thanks for that insight. Honestly now that you bring it up, it was always kinda a mystery to my as to how only one runner got the brake booster vac tap, which would automatically throw off the a/f ratio.

Now here's where I have to toss out a giant what-the. Almost all DCOE setups I have ever seen do not contain a balance tube. Is that just because of the pre-balance-tube train of thought? I suppose that's a good argument seeing as nearly every single ITB setup (based on the same premise as one carb per cyl) has a vacuum manifold which taps all runners. hmm..... something to chew on now....

cygnus x-1
06-06-2008, 07:01 PM
For ITB setups you need a steady MAP signal for the injection controller to read. The typical way to do this is to tap each runner to a single line and feed that to the sensor. It's essentially the same thing as a balance tube on carb manifolds. I guess if your carbs were well matched you wouldn't need a balance tube?

C|

lostforawhile
06-07-2008, 06:33 AM
For ITB setups you need a steady MAP signal for the injection controller to read. The typical way to do this is to tap each runner to a single line and feed that to the sensor. It's essentially the same thing as a balance tube on carb manifolds. I guess if your carbs were well matched you wouldn't need a balance tube?

C|you can never get them perfect. there are too many variables in each cyl that cause the carbs to be off,

2oodoor
06-07-2008, 02:57 PM
you can never get them perfect. there are too many variables in each cyl that cause the carbs to be off,

That is why you educate yourself on the principals, and apply foresight to the engineering of mulitple carb set ups. We are not re-inventing the wheel here, just making it roll better for longer. :rolleyes:
I have not noticed the brake booster tap on other DCOE apps, something I need to look a little closer to. Since the brake booster uses vacuum only part time and also incorporates a check valve, I don't see it interferring with the mixture a whole hella lot.

markmdz89hatch
06-07-2008, 03:25 PM
That is why you educate yourself on the principals, and apply foresight to the engineering of mulitple carb set ups. We are not re-inventing the wheel here, just making it roll better for longer. :rolleyes:
I have not noticed the brake booster tap on other DCOE apps, something I need to look a little closer to. Since the brake booster uses vacuum only part time and also incorporates a check valve, I don't see it interferring with the mixture a whole hella lot.

That being said, I think I'm going to look into the principals of a 'balance' tube, and use them to incorporate a vacuum manifold from which to tap for the brake booster. However, I would end up using smaller ports and possibly angling the taps toward the head and soften all of the edges of the tap to minimize the turbulence in the runner so I get a consistent flow to the head. I dunno, just a thought.

lostforawhile
06-07-2008, 03:27 PM
That is why you educate yourself on the principals, and apply foresight to the engineering of mulitple carb set ups. We are not re-inventing the wheel here, just making it roll better for longer. :rolleyes:
I have not noticed the brake booster tap on other DCOE apps, something I need to look a little closer to. Since the brake booster uses vacuum only part time and also incorporates a check valve, I don't see it interferring with the mixture a whole hella lot. it causes a large vaccume change whenever you press the brake pedal, if you tried to tap it off of one carb, it would unbalance that cyl,thats why all the carbs are tied together for a ,stronger vaccume signal. on the stock setup it's just tapped off of the manifold, but with a dual or more carb setup,there is really more then one manifold.

FlaLude
06-18-2008, 05:59 PM
Dang what a nice setup, hey, thats my car! The balance tube was originally for the brake booster, but after using cygnus's idea about the vacuum canister I no longer needed it. There was too much fuel getting into the line that way so I switched it. Now its just plugged off. As a balance tube I don't know if its necessary or not, I am going to try another manifold without it to see if there is any difference.

markmdz89hatch
06-18-2008, 06:38 PM
Dang what a nice setup, hey, thats my car! The balance tube was originally for the brake booster, but after using cygnus's idea about the vacuum canister I no longer needed it. There was too much fuel getting into the line that way so I switched it. Now its just plugged off. As a balance tube I don't know if its necessary or not, I am going to try another manifold without it to see if there is any difference.

What is this vacuum canister you speak of? Please elaborate, I'm extremely interested.

lostforawhile
06-18-2008, 07:10 PM
http://img101.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2007/07/09/2005010100017-473bl7u6w.jpg

FlaLude
06-19-2008, 07:29 PM
Its just a storage tank for vacuum with an inlet and outlet. There was a stock one on the prelude that mounts on the firewall and I just used that. Works perfect, no drop in idle when pressing the brakes like I had before with the vacuum running to the booster from the crossover pipe.


What is this vacuum canister you speak of? Please elaborate, I'm extremely interested.

markmdz89hatch
06-20-2008, 05:28 AM
So I'm assuming the line to the tank is still getting it's vacuum from the crossover pipe correct? ...but the tank is a buffer for the booster so there's no sudden impact on the runner that happens to be victim of the most vacuum pull? got any pics of that?

FlaLude
06-20-2008, 06:07 PM
Nope, the crossover pipe is now plugged off. Each of the carbs has their own vacuum port, and 2 of the carbs are T'd together and run to the vacuum canister. From there it goes to the booster and also to the heater/ac controls. The other 2 carbs are T'd and go to the distributor vacuum advance. So I guess the only function the crossover does now is act as a balance tube. Not sure if it is providing any benefit or not, I will try one without and see if there is a difference. I will try to post some pics to show this a little better.

Ichiban
06-20-2008, 10:46 PM
we have a guy on here who works in a cnc machine shop, if you got a set of carbs i'm sure you could send him a gasket for them,and he could make you four mounting flanges to go on the carb ends, it's crucial is the person,pm him and ask what he would charge and if he could do it for you.

Hey, what the fuck? I do too, and I've also done work for fellow 3geez members as well.

forrest89sei
06-20-2008, 11:02 PM
Hey, what the fuck? I do too, and I've also done work for fellow 3geez members as well.

X2, We have yet to have a finished product from crucial, It's been what over 6 months?

lostforawhile
06-21-2008, 06:27 AM
Hey, what the fuck? I do too, and I've also done work for fellow 3geez members as well.cool i didn't know you did too, wasn't saying anything bad about you, just trying to pass on some info.

Ichiban
06-21-2008, 05:18 PM
Haha...joking a bit, but seriously, anyone who can make a print and pay for material should talk to me about building stuff.

Edit: My shop:

Milling mykwikcoupe's bracket on the Modern manual mill,
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/guyhatesmycar/100_0959-1.jpg


Also set up to turn his shaft (this lathe has since been destroyed)
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/guyhatesmycar/100_0954-1.jpg


A big bitch, the Cespel can swing 40" diameter over the ways, and something stupid like 22 feet from chuck to tailstock.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/guyhatesmycar/100_0965-1.jpg


The chuck and turret on the Modern Lathe,
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/guyhatesmycar/100_0963-1.jpg


Fagor control on the Modern.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/guyhatesmycar/100_0964-1.jpg


The carriage on the Cespel
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/guyhatesmycar/100_0966-1.jpg


And the jewel in the crown, the Haas VF7 Milling machine
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/guyhatesmycar/100_0967-1.jpg

Bass Man
06-22-2008, 01:45 PM
Is that a Water jet CNC?!?!

Man... You need to start making some cam gears and such for us!! How about a manifold for the Weber carbs?

And how about some B series mounts; ie, B16-18??
You guys could make some good money with that...

cygnus x-1
06-23-2008, 07:00 AM
I don't see a water jet there but those are nice machines. That manual lathe is HUGE!

Manifolds are not cost effective to machine out of solid stock. It would cost a small fortune to find a single chunk of aluminum that big. Casting or welding are the ways to go. And there are probably only a handful of people that would buy "B" mounts; not enough to make it worthwhile. That's why nobody makes them anymore.

C|

markmdz89hatch
06-23-2008, 10:05 AM
I don't see a water jet there but those are nice machines. That manual lathe is HUGE!

Manifolds are not cost effective to machine out of solid stock. It would cost a small fortune to find a single chunk of aluminum that big. Casting or welding are the ways to go. And there are probably only a handful of people that would buy "B" mounts; not enough to make it worthwhile. That's why nobody makes them anymore.

C|

Couldn't have said it any better. While many of us (the 3Geez guys) would jump at the idea of B mounts, of those that would like them, only a few would actually fork over the money. That said, there's a very small niche market for such a thing.

Also hit the nail on the head there about the manny's. Casting or full fabrication (aka, CNC'ing and welding) a manifold from scratch requires a hell of a lot more then just what a mill or lathe could produce. Welding is a huge part of that.

Either way, both are costly endeavors.

Zufer
06-23-2008, 02:36 PM
heres a link to a video that shows my setup running. Its in the tuning process. The car has a full exhaust, no cat, and a 282 cam.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cUjgaccsM5M&feature=user

Ichiban
06-23-2008, 03:13 PM
I don't see a water jet there but those are nice machines. That manual lathe is HUGE!

Manifolds are not cost effective to machine out of solid stock. It would cost a small fortune to find a single chunk of aluminum that big. Casting or welding are the ways to go. And there are probably only a handful of people that would buy "B" mounts; not enough to make it worthwhile. That's why nobody makes them anymore.

C|

-Exactly

We farm out the waterjetting to another shop in town that specializes in laser and water jet cutting. That Haas mill can make any flange you want, and with the right tooling, we can cut gears and do other rotary work on it using what is basically a 4th axis powered dividing head.

The easiest way to build the intakes would be to machine the two flanges, and either MIG or TIG (we have aluminum MIG right now, waiting on the TIG setup) and then face mill the flanges again to eliminate the distortion from welding. All said and done, sourcing the material would be the hardest part, for me at least.

FlaLude
06-23-2008, 03:52 PM
Nice setup, I like the cold air intake you made. How does it do with the cam and exhaust? I haven't gotten that far yet, just the bike carbs on the stock motor. What carbs did you use?


heres a link to a video that shows my setup running. Its in the tuning process. The car has a full exhaust, no cat, and a 282 cam.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cUjgaccsM5M&feature=user

lostforawhile
06-23-2008, 03:55 PM
-Exactly

We farm out the waterjetting to another shop in town that specializes in laser and water jet cutting. That Haas mill can make any flange you want, and with the right tooling, we can cut gears and do other rotary work on it using what is basically a 4th axis powered dividing head.

The easiest way to build the intakes would be to machine the two flanges, and either MIG or TIG (we have aluminum MIG right now, waiting on the TIG setup) and then face mill the flanges again to eliminate the distortion from welding. All said and done, sourcing the material would be the hardest part, for me at least.how high of an amperage will you be able to go on the tig, i have stacks of billet aluminum plates sitting around

Zufer
06-23-2008, 04:29 PM
it does pretty well. I need to finish tuning it to really see what it'll do. The carbs are 34mm Mikuni cv carbs. They are probably a little small but they work pretty well.

What are you using?

FlaLude
06-23-2008, 05:01 PM
I'm using 39mm Mikuni's from a GSXR1000. They are CV's also. I had to do a bit of rejetting to get them right, but I really want to change the cam and exhaust to get the full potential from the carbs. Nothing wrong with your 34's, I bet they still flow more than enough for these Honda motors. I think of it this way, if they are good enough to flow for a 16v DOHC bike at 13k+ rpms, then its more than enough for these at 6-7k.

cygnus x-1
06-23-2008, 07:08 PM
-Exactly

We farm out the waterjetting to another shop in town that specializes in laser and water jet cutting. That Haas mill can make any flange you want, and with the right tooling, we can cut gears and do other rotary work on it using what is basically a 4th axis powered dividing head.

The easiest way to build the intakes would be to machine the two flanges, and either MIG or TIG (we have aluminum MIG right now, waiting on the TIG setup) and then face mill the flanges again to eliminate the distortion from welding. All said and done, sourcing the material would be the hardest part, for me at least.

A friend of mine has a couple Haas machines, smaller than yours but still very nice.

How well does the MIG work on Al? I've considered trying it with my Lincoln 175 but I don't think it has enough current to do a manifold.

C|

Zufer
06-23-2008, 07:43 PM
my manifold was built with a Mig welder. Its not pretty but it works. I used a Millermatic 210 with a spool gun. You can kinda see the welds in my video. I am going to go back over it and dremel all the welds smooth next time i have the manifold off.

Also with the carb sizing. Besides know that it will flow plenty. I chose 34mm via a bunch of reading in the weber dcoe threads. In there someone with a similiar setup to what i wanted to do was using a setup/ engine mods wise to what i want to end up with and they were having good success using 34 mm chokes in the webers. So i decided to go with 34 mm. The only thing that would make my setup a lot better would be to space them out evenly with the cylinders as opposed to how they are now. But whatever it works for now.

lostforawhile
06-24-2008, 04:00 AM
A friend of mine has a couple Haas machines, smaller than yours but still very nice.

How well does the MIG work on Al? I've considered trying it with my Lincoln 175 but I don't think it has enough current to do a manifold.

C|i had to send mine up to my step brother in atlanta,he works for a company that builds all the big aluminum awning things you see on buildings there. it took 300 amps and a water cooled torch to do my manifold, also consider you will probably have to face it after you weld it,it will warp. mine was 5/16 inch plate bolted to a 4 inch thick steel plate and it still warped.

cygnus x-1
06-24-2008, 07:01 AM
i had to send mine up to my step brother in atlanta,he works for a company that builds all the big aluminum awning things you see on buildings there. it took 300 amps and a water cooled torch to do my manifold, also consider you will probably have to face it after you weld it,it will warp. mine was 5/16 inch plate bolted to a 4 inch thick steel plate and it still warped.

300 amps, yikes! That's probably double what my little Lincoln will do. Oh well.

C|

lostforawhile
06-24-2008, 07:12 AM
300 amps, yikes! That's probably double what my little Lincoln will do. Oh well.

C|well it depends on how thick it is, mine has to provide support for the rest of the carbs and manifold also. even on a standard manifold, figure 200 amps with a water cooled tig torch. if you don't have enough current you won't get full penetration and you will have weld problems, this one the welds went all the way through to the back of the plate. once it was mliled i don't think i will have any problems.

lostforawhile
06-24-2008, 07:15 AM
heres the video of when i was facing it. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6360582766050716236

2oodoor
06-24-2008, 07:57 AM
same here, millermatic 210 with spool gun, set on 3.5 heat it does pretty good with that thickness. I assume that is around 130 amps at that setting.
Lostforawhile I may be interested in some of that alum plate.
Do you still plan on using some braces down to the block? I think I asked that already in the SU thread.

lostforawhile
06-24-2008, 08:28 AM
same here, millermatic 210 with spool gun, set on 3.5 heat it does pretty good with that thickness. I assume that is around 130 amps at that setting.
Lostforawhile I may be interested in some of that alum plate.
Do you still plan on using some braces down to the block? I think I asked that already in the SU thread.yea i have to it would put too much stress on the manifold if i didn't. i need to find a junk engine. to mock those up on.

cygnus x-1
06-24-2008, 08:48 PM
same here, millermatic 210 with spool gun, set on 3.5 heat it does pretty good with that thickness. I assume that is around 130 amps at that setting.
Lostforawhile I may be interested in some of that alum plate.
Do you still plan on using some braces down to the block? I think I asked that already in the SU thread.

Hmm, 130 I could do. Is that 3.5 out of 10? And is that the wire speed or voltage setting? My welder is pretty simple, just a voltage setting and wire speed. What kind of gas are you using?

C|

Ichiban
06-24-2008, 08:51 PM
We can run the MIG up to 200 A, I believe. Aluminum is pretty easy to penetrate, and if you're concerned, you can weld bevel the flange and make multiple passes, but I think this to be a waste of time. Our welder builds aluminum staircases and staging platforms for oilfield well drilling stabilizer units, pretty thin material, but he's barely pushing any current to weld that stuff. It actually works pretty good, it's easiest if you can weld in flat position, but vertical up and horizontal is doable.

Zufer
06-25-2008, 10:01 AM
with the mig spool gun i was using i turned the voltage down quite a bit... don't remember an exact number. and then the wire speed was way up like twice as much as steel. I also used pure argon which is what miller suggests for aluminum.

2oodoor
06-25-2008, 10:19 AM
Hmm, 130 I could do. Is that 3.5 out of 10? And is that the wire speed or voltage setting? My welder is pretty simple, just a voltage setting and wire speed. What kind of gas are you using?

C|

yes out of 10
wire speed around 20-30 for now
.9 mm alum wire in spool gun
100% argon gas

for steel 25%co2 75% argon

Ichiban
06-25-2008, 04:21 PM
I was thinking today, one could add a reinforcement gusset to the bottom of each runner to help support the mass of the carburetors, or even a simple steel bracket that triangulates back to the block. This approach would both save weight as well as cost in materials, plus potentially save an expensive one-off manifold from vibration/stress damage.

markmdz89hatch
06-26-2008, 04:28 AM
i know it's straying from the direction this thread has been going, but just curious....

....does the A sit in the Preludes and 2G Accords at the same angle that it does in the 3G? Has anyone yet figured out exactly what that angle is on the 3G?

lostforawhile
06-26-2008, 05:04 AM
I was thinking today, one could add a reinforcement gusset to the bottom of each runner to help support the mass of the carburetors, or even a simple steel bracket that triangulates back to the block. This approach would both save weight as well as cost in materials, plus potentially save an expensive one-off manifold from vibration/stress damage.

thats what i was planning,but i need a junk engine and head to mock it up on. this is the same setup as the factory uses,it has two brackets between the manifold and the block to support weight.

markmdz89hatch
06-30-2008, 08:45 AM
alright, so for anyone that was following this thread with the hopes that someone will come through with a confirmation on the proper angle, I finally got off my ass and did something..

Here you go...
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?p=886441#post886441

lostforawhile
06-30-2008, 01:31 PM
i already knew this, you measure between the mounting flange and the carb flange. carb flange should be level when mounted bam! 15 degrees.

markmdz89hatch
06-30-2008, 02:06 PM
i already knew this, you measure between the mounting flange and the carb flange. carb flange should be level when mounted bam! 15 degrees.

well hey good buddy, then where the hell were you with this info the last 53 times I asked this question? ...most recently, only a few posts up...

Anyway, yeah, the stocker does sit level, but the DCOE's need that extra tilt.

A20A1
08-29-2008, 10:00 PM
waste of time, you would be better off just using the stock intake and cutting out the separator under the carb. The one I have I could look into any hole in it and see out the other side no problem.
now if you want to build an intake like that, build it for dual sidedraft or even downdraft webers or either motorcycle carbs.
http://www.redpepperracing.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38290 (http://www.redpepperracing.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38290)
photo credit to preludepower
http://www.freewebs.com/flalude/Prelude%20GSXR%20Carb%20005.jpg


Is that a large tube connecting the runners? :(

Bass Man
09-01-2008, 05:10 PM
I think it was used for a vacuum of sorts.

A20A1
09-01-2008, 07:39 PM
Not really the size main tube on top that I'm worried about but the pipes that tap into the runners... I would have went with smaller pipes and just leave the large one on top like it is.

lostforawhile
09-02-2008, 01:51 PM
Is that a large tube connecting the runners? :(
you need a balance tube with multiple carbs to make them operate correctly.

markmdz89hatch
09-02-2008, 02:17 PM
agreed Tim, but I think what Mike was getting at was more related to the size of the taps to the balance tube.

With the tube diameters welded on at the size pictured, it would act more as a full air balance rather than just a way of balancing the way the vacuum pulls from the manifold runners.

I could be talking out my ass on this one, but I think it makes sense to me.

baby D
10-16-2008, 06:32 AM
hey guyz, ive recently mojunted and am still tuning a 500 cfm, holly two berel swap:rockon::rockon: that muther comes on so hard you cant bogg her down at all. any wayz you can get every thing you need from the parts store, and if your interested email me at skullking 1 @msn.com
it runs good, pulls more and more power all they way from 1500, - 6200, and thats when i let off the gass, i over reved it once it went to 8000 like it was nothing, so if yourinterested let me know, gude makes a perfect cam for this apllication, at about 360 bucks

markmdz89hatch
10-16-2008, 06:38 AM
hey guyz, ive recently mojunted and am still tuning a 500 cfm, holly two berel swap:rockon::rockon: that muther comes on so hard you cant bogg her down at all. any wayz you can get every thing you need from the parts store, and if your interested email me at skullking 1 @msn.com
it runs good, pulls more and more power all they way from 1500, - 6200, and thats when i let off the gass, i over reved it once it went to 8000 like it was nothing, so if yourinterested let me know, gude makes a perfect cam for this apllication, at about 360 bucks

...and how much did that Holly run you? did you adapt it to the stock manny?

2oodoor
10-16-2008, 07:39 AM
I would be interested. I have been contemplating between the 350,500, or a four barrel 550-650 cfm with vacuum secondaries.
Unless a pair of DCOE webers fall on my doorstep soon or some mukini DCOE clones....:ugh2:
Did you set it up with a wideband? what changes did you make to the internals?

baby D
10-20-2008, 01:10 PM
I would be interested. I have been contemplating between the 350,500, or a four barrel 550-650 cfm with vacuum secondaries.
Unless a pair of DCOE webers fall on my doorstep soon or some mukini DCOE clones....:ugh2:
Did you set it up with a wideband? what changes did you make to the internals?

do not put a four berell on, all you need is a 500, i sugest that you get a fuel presure regulater, i chucked the holy and am runing a motorcraft off a 74 ford pickup, basicly yeah i drilled and tapped the manifold to exept a carb adapter plate off an old dodge, witch fits into the area the stock carb was, the thing is if you dont tapp your holes right youl have problems, i sugest getting the manifold welded ot the adapter, it takes a #51 jet size and a #35 or a 3.5 ingm powerevalve, my car was injected, so i teed off the fuel lin, and put a valve on the return, i have to run about 8lbs of fuel press, to keep the carb full, but the car ran 14s, with the injection, and i think it will pull a high 12, or a low13 now
it really needs more cam and compresion to use it to the full extent
:devil:bitch is fsast though ill tell ya

baby D
10-20-2008, 01:11 PM
oh yeah i forgot, um, your gonna havee to get creative for an air filter im cutting my hood

markmdz89hatch
10-20-2008, 01:19 PM
Baby D, please post pics of this beast. I'm real curious to see just how it all came together. Also please run another pull and post up the et. Do you have the sheet from your 14 pull when you were fi? I just want to see the 1/8 time, final, and top speed.

Any dyno time in your planned future?

edit: Guy (roodoo), how's 'bout I spring for a jetblu ticket for you to fly ur ass up here and help me at least shoehorn the excuse of a motor that I do have to put in this. I'm just dyin to get my damn carbs installed and running. Screw the pretty side of it for now, I just want to hear the DCOE's dammit!

baby D
10-20-2008, 01:38 PM
I would be interested. I have been contemplating between the 350,500, or a four barrel 550-650 cfm with vacuum secondaries.
Unless a pair of DCOE webers fall on my doorstep soon or some mukini DCOE clones....:ugh2:
Did you set it up with a wideband? what changes did you make to the internals?

i advanced the cam 4 degrese, and gutted all emsions, computor every thing, but charging, guages, and lights, and interior, the o2 sensors are in place but i only use them to check the mixture

baby D
10-20-2008, 01:44 PM
check it, the plans, but dont mis use these if you dont do it right, your gonna have a problem child, and im here if you have problems, but if you messit up, in any way other than were i did im not going to be able to help, do right by this, couse we can show the civics, that turbos are for rich kids with no brains, uh yeah, im claming this mod, so if its been done let me know, i think it hasent, so your welcome. um im going to have to email it to you so send me a privet message with your email, ill send the instructions, this can be done on ,lx,lxi,ex,exi,and sei's

baby D
10-20-2008, 01:48 PM
Is that a large tube connecting the runners? :(

i think they used it for the brake booster becouse the booster line runs off to noware in the pic

2oodoor
10-20-2008, 02:40 PM
Baby D, please post pics of this beast. I'm real curious to see just how it all came together. Also please run another pull and post up the et. Do you have the sheet from your 14 pull when you were fi? I just want to see the 1/8 time, final, and top speed.

Any dyno time in your planned future?

edit: Guy (roodoo), how's 'bout I spring for a jetblu ticket for you to fly ur ass up here and help me at least shoehorn the excuse of a motor that I do have to put in this. I'm just dyin to get my damn carbs installed and running. Screw the pretty side of it for now, I just want to hear the DCOE's dammit!

that would be awesome Mark!pm

2oodoor
10-20-2008, 02:43 PM
sounds good babyD
It has been done on other 4 bangers, just not these, only because of lack of interest and not enough old school with this car.
what was wrong with the holley?
they actually used those motorcraft 2100 type on the early capri, and the v6 2.9

Oldblueaccord
10-20-2008, 07:23 PM
Thats geat using a Holley/ I have been wanting some one to try it out. :idea:

Plugs look OK?

Im getting from the street talk a #51 jetts 3.5 PV and that a Motorcraft 2 barrel. Are you sure its 500 cfm or is it 350?

wp

cygnus x-1
10-20-2008, 08:31 PM
Baby D, please post pics of this beast. I'm real curious to see just how it all came together. Also please run another pull and post up the et. Do you have the sheet from your 14 pull when you were fi? I just want to see the 1/8 time, final, and top speed.

Any dyno time in your planned future?


Ditto on the time slip. Unless the car is totally gutted I'm having a hard time believing this was with a stock engine. And what was the actual time? There is a big difference between 14.0s and 14.9s

C|

markmdz89hatch
10-21-2008, 04:38 AM
oh no. Baby D woke the cygnus!

Baby D --> If you need someone to host up the pics so they can be posted on this thread, just PM me and I'll respond with my e-mail address so you can e-mail them to me. I'll post them up as soon as you send them.

As Guy (roodoo) said, you get credit for being the first (as far as we know) to do this holley on a 3G. Now that credit has been given, let's see the pics of this damn thing.

2oodoor
10-21-2008, 05:46 AM
oh no. Baby D woke the cygnus!

Baby D --> If you need someone to host up the pics so they can be posted on this thread, just PM me and I'll respond with my e-mail address so you can e-mail them to me. I'll post them up as soon as you send them.

As Guy (roodoo) said, you get credit for being the first (as far as we know) to do this holley on a 3G. Now that credit has been given, let's see the pics of this damn thing.

:werd:
he said the Holley was defunked so he used a motorcraft two bbl , which btw is not 500 cfm. But those are super easy to build, and have several booster venturi combinations as well as other things that are interchangable with other motorcraaft two bbl. The dirt racer mini stock crowd does use the motorcraft as well as the holley 2300 series 350/500 cfm..

markmdz89hatch
10-21-2008, 05:56 AM
thanks for that correction. that said, unless there's some stupidly serious headwork done, there's no benefit of a 500 cfm as compared to a 350 being that the damn head has a stock cfm of something well below 200 cfm bone stock. Hell, getting to the 200 cfm mark safely on these heads is a damn hard thing to do.

interesting about this motorcraft tho... ...hmm... I wonder how much one can be had for.

Guy, what sort of flow does the 32/36 have (just for sake of comparrison)?

EDIT: Guy, btw, I can't seem to find any flight under $240 (after fees), which is not bad, but after hotel, etc, I'm guessing I'm looking at well north of $500 to make that happen. ...perhaps after the holiday season if my pocket is not still bleeding.

cygnus x-1
10-21-2008, 07:36 AM
oh no. Baby D woke the cygnus!

Baby D --> If you need someone to host up the pics so they can be posted on this thread, just PM me and I'll respond with my e-mail address so you can e-mail them to me. I'll post them up as soon as you send them.

As Guy (roodoo) said, you get credit for being the first (as far as we know) to do this holley on a 3G. Now that credit has been given, let's see the pics of this damn thing.


Not saying it couldn't happen, but with a mostly stock engine you would have to seriously lighten the car. Under 2100lbs for sure. What's the stock curb weight on a 2dr 3g? 2600lbs maybe? This also assumes a perfect launch and run down the strip.

C|

2oodoor
10-21-2008, 08:22 AM
Weber 32/36 , I have seen varying cfm ratings.. ballpark 275
But then, the reason for the varience is probabaly the different choke sizes and main venturi between the 32/36 family. Look at the difference in these, one is a DFEV the other is DGV-5.. both 32/36
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/PA050266.jpg

The 38/38 is said to be in the 325 ballpark if I am not mistaken.
The one I have is really not doing justice since Im using it on a stock worn head and the A20A1 exhaust downpipe which is a real obstuction, the A20A3 has dual outlet downpipe.
BabyD seems like you are a veteren so I have to trust your accuracy on the timeslips, no reason to make that stuff up I guess.
I can see high 14 in a really good run with all the compenents mentioned above in place.
You said you advanced the cam timing so I guess you have an ACG, and you are using a EFI motor which has a better cam and exhaust manifold.. not exactly bone stock :D

markmdz89hatch
10-21-2008, 09:47 AM
kinda sorta... ...(with the exception of the acg), everything you mentioned that he could have done is with stock parts, just not necessarily stock to an A1. In fact, he could have accomplished the timing advance w/ the dizzy too.

I'm not about to call b/s on anyone either. Baby-D does seem to know quite a bit, and why chase away a person that's thinking outside the box with our 3G's. As for time, that's not a huge concern of mine, as long as there's a noticeable gain in power that's all that matters. There's so many other factors that go into time (ie. tires, suspension, reaction time, wheel-spin, shift timing, etc, etc, etc) that IMO it's not the best to gauge power gains.

I still want to see a pic of that damn thing.

Guy, why the hell are you not running the DFEV? Those mains and butterfly's are sooooo much larger. Can't you jet/choke that thing down? You know, I just realized what that B is missing.. ...a honkin pair of 48DCO's or even a dumb'd down 45DCOE.

2oodoor
10-21-2008, 01:56 PM
Guy, why the hell are you not running the DFEV? Those mains and butterfly's are sooooo much larger. Can't you jet/choke that thing down? You know, I just realized what that B is missing.. ...a honkin pair of 48DCO's or even a dumb'd down 45DCOE.

ya know it ya know it ya know it
hey the DFEV is the small one. It is on there just to get things going and start using it as a DD. I still have the 38 I bought just for the B. And with BabyD here reviving the R&D for carbs... oh Btw BabyD why not a 4bll?

markmdz89hatch
10-21-2008, 02:07 PM
hey, i just had an epiphany....

Someone go buy some 1.75" ID aluminum small-radius J-bends, a pair of DCOE flanges, and I'll supply the ally intake-side head flange. ...cut a gaping hole in the hood and make a pair of those 48 DCO bastards face forward to be forcefed all the air they can handle.

....hmm... i'm off to take some measurements and make some drawings, then see just how possible this may be. One thing's for sure, it'd look SICK!

greentee76
10-21-2008, 02:28 PM
Hell, getting to the 200 cfm mark safely on these heads is a damn hard thing to do.
This is something I wanted to bring up in the 4 barrel thread. I know they make smaller ones, but isn't your average 4 bbl 650cfm? What options do we really have in smaller sizes for a 4bbl? Just curious and enjoying the conversation.

Oldblueaccord
10-23-2008, 09:14 AM
Green look on Summit racing sight or JEGS. Holley makes a 390 cfm 4 barrel or used to for some classes of racing I guess. Same with the model 2300 carb its for 2 barrel classes. They come in 350 cfm and 500 cfm models.


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=HLY%2D0%2D8007&N=700+400178+300737+115&autoview=sku


wp

2oodoor
10-23-2008, 02:02 PM
on the four barrel the cfm rating is with all four barrels, that is why using an adjustable vacuum secondary would be the thing to use here. They do not open until the motor makes enough vacuum to pull it open. You can jet and meter and the primary barrels to run as a 2300.
If you surf around the net you can find a few places with some info, there are four barrels on in line six fords, jeeps, toyota 20r and 22r, opels.. plenty but not many Hondas since most attention to Honda was post fuel injection.
I was looking at a street avenger Holley 570 cfm, it is very reasonable priced, well compared to DCOE anyway.

baby D
11-04-2008, 06:14 AM
Spacing as in fitting? such as tube to tube?

no hes saying that theres not a whol lot of room for carberators, and its probly best suited for the throttle bodys


hey, i just had an epiphany....

Someone go buy some 1.75" ID aluminum small-radius J-bends, a pair of DCOE flanges, and I'll supply the ally intake-side head flange. ...cut a gaping hole in the hood and make a pair of those 48 DCO bastards face forward to be forcefed all the air they can handle.

....hmm... i'm off to take some measurements and make some drawings, then see just how possible this may be. One thing's for sure, it'd look SICK!

dude thats over the yop bro

hey, i ran that holly through the gears, and its fucking scary fast, it comes on harder then my uncles turbo 1.8 jetta, on the other hand, the power valve sisnt like it much so im gonna have to change it, i cant post the plans so hit me up and ill email them too you.fucking fast man, all this thing needed was a bigger two barrel, you guys stick fopur berells on there and your gonna drown the motor and it wont run good



keep it simple, run it hard


ya know it ya know it ya know it
hey the DFEV is the small one. It is on there just to get things going and start using it as a DD. I still have the 38 I bought just for the B. And with BabyD here reviving the R&D for carbs... oh Btw BabyD why not a 4bll?

couae you feeding a minow enough food for a wale with the holly 2, you guyz are gonna blow something up you stick too big of a carb on there

markmdz89hatch
11-04-2008, 08:04 AM
dude thats over the yop bro

already working in the drawings for it....

2oodoor
11-04-2008, 08:08 AM
im not following you babyD

?

markmdz89hatch
11-04-2008, 08:35 AM
actually, here you go....

I know scale is off, but for a quick MS Paint work-up, you can get the idea...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20_48DCO.jpg

2ndGenGuy
11-04-2008, 09:30 AM
Mark, that looks like it would be a fucking glorious setup! Are you gonna do it?

markmdz89hatch
11-04-2008, 09:33 AM
I might give it a shot for shit and giggles next year. For now though, my focus will be to get my DCOE's running on my manifold. I need to learn how to weld, and get a cheap set of DCOE's or DCO's before I can think of the setup I drew up. I don't want to use my new DCOE's on that, as there will be so much gunk caked in the butterflys with that setup.

2oodoor
11-04-2008, 12:23 PM
couae you feeding a minow enough food for a wale with the holly 2, you guyz are gonna blow something up you stick too big of a carb on there

datz wyroo ooz vacummed secerned doodarys thay don't open uphill theryis enuff vacummed to pool dem opened up.
Jus whyak a too barull , samalir but bigear:slap:swim baby swim little baby whale thingys

2ndGenGuy
11-04-2008, 12:38 PM
Why would too big of a carb blow the car up? I figured it just would run like crap, or not run at all. I mean, if you let it run like crap, then take it out and drive the piss out of it, it might blow up, but I think otherwise you probably won't do any damage.

greentee76
11-04-2008, 01:41 PM
I certainly don't think anythings going to "blow up", as 2nd gen said too large of a carb is probably going to make it run like shit.
That was kinda what I was getting at. If the head only flows 200cfm max a bigger carb is just overkill that I don't think is going to result in a faster car, or if anything result in a car that only runs well at WOT. Maybe I'm wrong, it's happened before.:)

markmdz89hatch
11-04-2008, 01:47 PM
I think it's all a matter of your jetting. Think about it, those (including myself) that look to go with DCOE's (45's or larger specifically) might just have a VERY poorly running car if they went wide open with the largest jets. As soon as you start jetting and choking it down, you can get pretty much anything to run on anything, as long as you're not trying to put a too-small carb on a car that needs more air then the carb can handle. Of course that rule only holds true if you're able to get jets small enough to choke it down.

2oodoor
11-05-2008, 05:04 AM
I think it's all a matter of your jetting. Think about it, those (including myself) that look to go with DCOE's (45's or larger specifically) might just have a VERY poorly running car if they went wide open with the largest jets. As soon as you start jetting and choking it down, you can get pretty much anything to run on anything, as long as you're not trying to put a too-small carb on a car that needs more air then the carb can handle. Of course that rule only holds true if you're able to get jets small enough to choke it down.

Exactly, for example is this 38 weber I have on the DX, stock with and old head, and crappy A20A1 exhaust. too much carb for it? I am sure it is.. does it run better than the OEM .. oh hell yeah it does:gun:
Will a four barrel 575 total cfm with adjustable vacuum secondaries, be too much carb for a B20A 16 valve, with modified intake manifold and modified exhaust and distributor timing curve? hell no it won't.. LOL swim baby whale minniows, swim

baby D
11-10-2008, 08:26 AM
datz wyroo ooz vacummed secerned doodarys thay don't open uphill theryis enuff vacummed to pool dem opened up.
Jus whyak a too barull , samalir but bigear:slap:swim baby swim little baby whale thingys

yeah , ok, thats why mine blew up right, aperently it makes enogh power to shake the rods loose, at half throttl and 3300 rpm, and i finished the race and i still one but that lil bit is clicken and a clankin, aperently, it needs to be done to a fresh motor, you guys are nuts you think a fourberells even gonna make it through tuning, but hey its your cars right, any ways i have one for sale, needs a motor and trany, 4 in drop, custom fenders, sustom spoiler, no ecm, cruise, powere steering, ac, just heat a radio and lightsmottor needs #1 rod bearing, front and rear seals, and a head gasket, couse she poped them all out, but its 13 sec car., im keeping my weels, and my auxiler fuel pump, the rest is for sale, ill think abvout parting it out, but i want a grand for my nossan, i have to have something to drive, ive decided my beracuda is more important to me than my three gee, oh yeahand the pcv tub from the chamer to the manifold, it uh hit the dirt to
i alredy washed the oil off the windsheild
poor car just didnt like eatin that volkswagon for lunch, oh well:chainsaw:
seriously guys under 10000 rpm a 2 berells enough, that motor is gonn take whatever you feed it though so do what you want, its your safty, your choice, but man is it cool , when your passin a 1.8t jetta like its settin still

baby D
11-10-2008, 08:39 AM
Why would too big of a carb blow the car up? I figured it just would run like crap, or not run at all. I mean, if you let it run like crap, then take it out and drive the piss out of it, it might blow up, but I think otherwise you probably won't do any damage.

lets say , your racin, you launch, eas it through first standon it in sec, and halve way through third it starts puttering and going clack clakety clack, you pill it apaort, and instaed of connecting rods you find these horseshoe looking thingys wraped around the crank

my two berrel was just a lil much, but man was she fast, its for sell by the way, a lil n=bit o work, maybe if you stole the ideas off of my car you could build a nice car that ran the same, my car just couldnt handle dady being a hotrodder. so its for sell, and im gonna fix my timmid nissan, and go get my berracuda out of storage, i figure if i can run 14s with a honda 9s should be easy in my fish.

baby D
11-10-2008, 08:41 AM
I certainly don't think anythings going to "blow up", as 2nd gen said too large of a carb is probably going to make it run like shit.
That was kinda what I was getting at. If the head only flows 200cfm max a bigger carb is just overkill that I don't think is going to result in a faster car, or if anything result in a car that only runs well at WOT. Maybe I'm wrong, it's happened before.:)

bring me 100 bucks and ill sell you my manifold, it will bolt on nd run, and then you tell me it runs like shit, the problem is it runs too good

2ndGenGuy
11-10-2008, 09:07 AM
lets say , your racin, you launch, eas it through first standon it in sec, and halve way through third it starts puttering and going clack clakety clack, you pill it apaort, and instaed of connecting rods you find these horseshoe looking thingys wraped around the crank

my two berrel was just a lil much, but man was she fast, its for sell by the way, a lil n=bit o work, maybe if you stole the ideas off of my car you could build a nice car that ran the same, my car just couldnt handle dady being a hotrodder. so its for sell, and im gonna fix my timmid nissan, and go get my berracuda out of storage, i figure if i can run 14s with a honda 9s should be easy in my fish.

If you stand on it in second, and your carb isn't tuned right, it will sputter and spit and be slow. It won't run OK in second gear and then sputter in third gear. That doesn't even make any sense... If you keep on it, like I said it will blow up. It's simple, don't mash the gas if it's sputtering and spitting. It just means you're running too lean probably. Tune the carb and it won't do that. I guarantee if it's spitting and sputtering it's not going to be as fast as it should be.

cygnus x-1
11-10-2008, 09:27 AM
any ways i have one for sale, needs a motor and trany, 4 in drop, custom fenders, sustom spoiler, no ecm, cruise, powere steering, ac, just heat a radio and lightsmottor needs #1 rod bearing, front and rear seals, and a head gasket, couse she poped them all out, but its 13 sec car.



Really? :wtf:

C|

markmdz89hatch
11-10-2008, 09:28 AM
baby D --> Easy on the name calling. Seriously though, it's not that we're outright calling BS on this, but you're not telling us all that much, and it's not very easy to read through your posts because of all the typos and strange spelling. Not knocking you, but we just can't seem to make heads or tails out of your claims.

A 4 bbl can run on our cars (providing it can be jetted/choked down enough), but you're right, a 2 bbl would be much better suited for the 3G mainly because it's cfm is better matched to what the 3G flows stock. Hell, the 2 would be enough for a worked n/a build on a 3G. So, no-one's arguing that the 2 is better then the 4 for us, but if the damn thing runs, and starts making it through the rpm range, but then starts spitting and sputtering, I blame the tune or jetting. Either that, or the motor is just getting revv'd way too high. These are not VW's, nor B16's, they are single cam iron block, alum head, long stroke motors that can't handle extremely high rev's. But, you gear the tranny right, and there will be no need to go over 8K and still get a great power band and great gearing to pull hard all through the top of 5th gear.

Please understand that we're all here to try and think outside the box and be imaginative with ways to make this thing breath better and pull more power from these motors. To just jump on a thread like this, and start talking about 4 or 2 bbl carbs, and make some serious claims about performance, and have no pics, timeslips, etc to back it up, it's obvious we would question the validity of your claims.

Please stick around and help us with new ideas and tuning suggestions, etc, but please try and keep the name calling and 'i beat a viper' claims to someone else who will be impressed. Numbers don't lie, but stories tend to inflate themselves for the benefit of glory.

2oodoor
11-10-2008, 03:08 PM
well said Mark
as far as handling a four barrel, what is the difference in that and turbo boost or twin DCOE's , or hell even four flat sides.
Tuning it to acceptable stages of transition is the ticket. There is where we need the R&D for the 2300 sawed off two and smaller Holley four barrels. No the A20 is not going to stand up to 7-10K rpm pulls all the time with a bunch of gas dumping in it. But it will stand up to stout torque band of 2-5K rpm with a growling carb.
With the Weber 32-36 I seldom every even NEED to hit the secondaries, but having them is nice.. same would go for a four barrel.
babyD you talk a good game and I really would like to see that carb set up you had (have) also there are a few of us here that are Mopar fans as well. Bout a pic of that cuda, what year is it? BB or SB? wedge?

greentee76
11-10-2008, 04:20 PM
bring me 100 bucks and ill sell you my manifold, it will bolt on nd run, and then you tell me it runs like shit, the problem is it runs too good

I think you miss understood me, I was not referring to your car at all, only to the theory of running a 4bbl on an A20 and if it would result in a faster car than a properly jetted 2bbl would.

markmdz89hatch
11-11-2008, 04:51 AM
I think you miss understood me, I was not referring to your car at all, only to the theory of running a 4bbl on an A20 and if it would result in a faster car than a properly jetted 2bbl would.

To plainly answer this question.... ...no. IMO, a 2 is the most you would need. The 4 wouldn't give you any benefit over the 2 for an A20 either stock or mildly built. Arguably, even with a very worked A20, a 2bbl would still flow more then enough.

A20A1
11-11-2008, 06:26 PM
I was going with 4 bbl and dividing the manifold... while this can hurt top end I was aiming for low/mid range and hopefully better mixture distribution. I can't get that with a 2bbl and I even though I could get it with an IR setup, thats not what I want. In reality my 4bbl is 2x2bbl.

lostforawhile
11-11-2008, 06:53 PM
yeah , ok, thats why mine blew up right, aperently it makes enogh power to shake the rods loose, at half throttl and 3300 rpm, and i finished the race and i still one but that lil bit is clicken and a clankin, shake the rods loose? uh you sound like you have other problems, what has the carb got to do with the rods? maby if you were overreving the engine, but the engine internals could care less what size carb you've got on there. why in the hell would your rods come loose at 3300 rpm? TURN THE BS DOWN!! IT"S SHAKING YOUR ENGINE TO DEATH!! I MEAN BASS

seriously guys under 10000 rpm a 2 berells enough, UH that idle,I sure hope so. your ignorance is showing. I'm not name calling I'm BS calling. anybody who reads through that entire page you wrote knows better

i have to have something to drive, ive decided my beracuda is more important to me than my three gee, oh yeahand the pcv tub from the chamer to the manifold, it uh hit the dirt to
i alredy washed the oil off the windsheild
poor car just didnt like eatin that volkswagon for lunch, oh well
can anyone translate troll?
don't come on here and talk bull to the people who have been researching this stuff for years,and have spent a lot of time figuring it out, if you have a legitimate point is one thing, but not rambling about how your car with the pcv tube that hit the ground and has a bad rod runs 13's. you will be quickly flame broiled. a lot of people on this site have excellent BS vision and can see right through it. if you want to see an a20 that can actually run low numbers,look for Johnny O's stuff, his is a legitimate drag car that has tons of time,research and money put into it. and he has plenty of proof to back it up. It's by far the fastest car on this site, and probably the fastest three g period.

lostforawhile
11-11-2008, 06:58 PM
I might give it a shot for shit and giggles next year. For now though, my focus will be to get my DCOE's running on my manifold. I need to learn how to weld, and get a cheap set of DCOE's or DCO's before I can think of the setup I drew up. I don't want to use my new DCOE's on that, as there will be so much gunk caked in the butterflys with that setup.
look at piercemanifolds.com look under aircleaners and velocity stacks,that have the small foam filters and the stainless steel filters that fit in the bells of those

markmdz89hatch
11-12-2008, 05:50 AM
look at piercemanifolds.com look under aircleaners and velocity stacks,that have the small foam filters and the stainless steel filters that fit in the bells of those

Yeah, I looked into those already because I don't yet have any air cleaners for my carbs, and don't know which of the many options I'm going to go with. I'm getting conflicting stories from various legitimate carb guys. A number of them have pointed directly to the horn on the velocity stacks and mentioned that the only air cleaner they would ever consider would not touch the top of the stack because the shape of the horn assists airflow to the point that I would notice reduced performance if anything would be put on to impede flow on the horn edges. Long story short, many have said avoid the 'sock' style filters like the plague. Other though, have said that it makes no difference at all, and those other stories are just bunk.

Honestly, I'm leaning toward fabricating an air box with a filter at face of the box to allow a huge chamber of clean air flowing freely into the stacks. Just not sure from where I'm going to force-feed the air to the box.

rjudgey
11-14-2008, 05:56 PM
http://a456.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/53/l_c7ba3c458accfcd4bf3ffd9c4b53777f.jpg

I like mine personally!! or this one worked quite well as well!!

http://a364.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/7/l_74c26a83471f08c3c6faa44bdaf59013.jpg

Was very revvy with the short runners!! ET1 head is the tits though!!

cygnus x-1
11-15-2008, 10:44 PM
Damn you and your ET1 head. You need to find another one and send it to me. :D

C|

2ndGenGuy
11-16-2008, 10:30 AM
They've got em in Canada too. One of these days, I'm gonna head up there and snag me a few. It was so tempting last time I was up there and saw em at the wrecking yard, but I just didn't have the money... :(

cygnus x-1
11-16-2008, 12:26 PM
They've got em in Canada too. One of these days, I'm gonna head up there and snag me a few. It was so tempting last time I was up there and saw em at the wrecking yard, but I just didn't have the money... :(


Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Not that I have the money either.

C|

lostforawhile
11-16-2008, 01:16 PM
as soon as things look up a bit on money,i will get my project done, almost finished but with the economy taking a crap, just can't swing the 600 bucks on rebuilds on the SU's right now. I would do it myself,but the throttle shafts are leaking and thats a pro job to fix. I could do it,but these particular carbs are super rare JDM ones,and I don't want to ruin them.

markmdz89hatch
12-05-2008, 02:26 PM
if anyone wants to make any attempt at a 4bbl, this is a good price on a good carb...

http://hartford.craigslist.org/pts/946319805.html